Columbus A/S (COLUM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Welcome to today's event where we have the pleasure to present Columbus. Today's topic is, of course, the financial results you released yesterday. There was some preannouncement and of course, your guidance for next year. So I think we will dig a little bit deeper into the results, what has driven them and of course, the expectations for next year. So we go through today's presentation and answer questions in the end of the presentation, we are joined by CEO, Soren Krogh; and CFO, Brian Iversen. As always, you're very encouraged to ask questions in the box down below during the presentation, but we will take the main part of the Q&A in the end. But for now, I think I will hand the call over to you, Soren.

Thank you very much, Michael, and thank you to all who have joined. We look forward to taking you through this presentation. And I can see we've already received some questions. So I think I'll just head straight into the presentation and aim for creating a few minutes at the back end for those. So just before we start, I would like to point out the disclaimer here that we've sent a disclaimer about forward-looking statements. So just take a second to familiarize. And then as Michael said, it's Brian and myself that will take you through the presentation. I will just go through a few financial and operational highlights first, then Brian will dig a bit more into the details. Then we cover the -- a little bit on ESG. And we will have a section quickly on the guidance, and then it's over to Q&A. So if we look at the financial highlights for '24, we saw a relatively strong revenue growth, especially compared to how the market developed that we operate in. We did see some challenging conditions in particularly Sweden and Norway, where the market did not develop so favorably. Despite that, we achieved 8% all up revenue growth, 7% of that being organic. We saw a 30% increase in EBITDA, which took us to DKK 153 million, up from DKK 118 million in '23, resulting in a margin percentage of 9.2% versus 7.6% in '23. Also profit before tax increased by 47% to DKK 58 million mainly arising from the improved operations of the business and also less net financial items weighing in. Our cash flow from operations increased by DKK 59 million or 77% compared with 2023, mainly due to our focus on sort of commercial mindset, which means running our core projects at better gross margins and also optimization of our working capital. So again, that follows sort of a trend we've been on for a couple of years now to improve our operational cash flow. Moving on, I will just briefly comment on -- very briefly comment on the strategic review. I can see there are also some questions. There's not that much we can say by now. I will actually just bake in 2 of the questions now. So we are currently going through the motions, as you would expect, a structured process. So as you would also expect a stage gate process. And we are still in the, I would say, in the relatively early stages of such a process engaging with interested parties. One of the questions that came in is that when do we expect to finalize that process. And I'm not at liberty to comment specifically on that. I can just say as the CEO of the company, I, of course, have a preference to conduct such an exercise as quickly as absolutely possible because it's -- because it does take capacity out of my day and people around me, which we need to divert back to the business. So we're doing it as quickly as we can. But obviously, it needs to be done absolutely correctly as well, and we need to explore all options. So it's that balance. I'm pushing for speed, but we're also taking the time required to do it right. So not really an answer, but it tells you the mindset we have behind it. Then I'll cover the brief questions about whether the trading window is open. And I can just say that we follow all rules and regulations applicable to the scenario that we find ourselves in, and that's all I can say for now. Moving on. A brief temperature check on our strategy implementation of new heights, 2024 being the first year. I'm going through these 4 pillars with you. The first one is basically just to double check whether the assumptions that we set for the strategy when we defined it, whether they are actually turning into reality. And you can see here that we were expecting high uncertainty in our market. We certainly see that. We were expecting some sort of flat development that can go either way. We did see that as well. We have been taking a little bit of risk off the table in terms of front-loading people investments as such. So running a bit more nimble and a little bit more oriented towards stabilizing and consolidating our business. So in order to counter these conditions, we opted for this growth excellence strategy. We thought our previous strategy was quite successful. It had more room to give us. So we continued, I would say, the vast majority of the components. We slimmed it down somewhat, and we added a few new components, but it's very much a growth excellence. And by excellence, I mean really perfecting what we were already doing and then keeping that growth momentum, which we already built back in '22 and '23, keeping that growth momentum and now sort of turning more and more attention to improving the bottom line, which is also exactly what's happening. I think perhaps on external conditions, we did see a little bit more -- a little bit starker decline in terms of market growth rates in '24. So the market was certainly challenging, especially, as I said before, in Sweden, but also Norway. We've taken the necessary actions. So we've adjusted organization. We are growing in parts of the business. We've taken a little bit of capacity out where we don't think it was required or we've grown slower in those areas. But overall, we see progress on all our strategic initiatives in all areas. In terms of the future, the strategic ambition we have for this strategic period remains. So 10% growth year-on-year and achieving an exit EBITDA margin of 15% by end of '26. Obviously, especially the last couple of months here have brought, again, I would say, sort of additional geopolitical concerns, also some more technical trade tariffs, which we continue to monitor. I wouldn't say we are directly affected by it, but it can have an effect for some of our customers. So we keep monitoring that and make necessary adjustments if required. Quick run-through of some of the things that we've practice, more formally, we've taken onboard a number of new customers, growing some of the ones we have. Life Science grows a bit quicker than the average of the business at 22%. We put a lot of focus in on this Accelerate Evolve, this is the business relationship we have with customers post big projects. It's a different revenue model. It's typically longer contracts. Also, the Evolve part of the business is growing faster than the average of the business, which is exactly what we want to see. I want to do much more of that. So even though it's growing faster. Now, it needs to grow even faster than the rest of the business. We did, towards the end of the year, just do a rightsizing of certain areas of the business just to adjust to the market conditions. Part of that was also interlinked with the next one, which is the Digital Commerce reorganization. We set that business unit up in a completely different way. They were very exposed to Sweden, very exposed to retail in Sweden, which was one of the harder hit areas. We've really strengthened the business development part of that and how we are set up. And we're starting to see some progress also on the Swedish market, which is important for us. We integrated and restructured the security business that we bought. We've learned a lot from buying that business. It was more difficult than what we expected in the beginning to integrate that with the offering. It now sits really well within our Dynamics business, and we're seeing good traction on that. We had another integration of an acquired business, Endless Gain. That one was actually pretty straightforward, and we finalized that one now, and it's given us additional competence that we didn't have before. So that was actually fairly straightforward, and we're very happy we conducted that. We have a lot of mobilization going around, as you can expect, from AI, generative AI, not just generative actually, which is mainly related, I would say, at present time, understanding and building expertise within Columbus on the offerings coming out of our big software vendors. They are being made available at a very great speed to our customers, but it's not easy to derive the value of it. So that's our job now. So that means that we have a lot of internal training. We are actually using it internally as well a lot to be ready. We see kind of 4 horizons, which we'll come back to talk about later on this AI waves which we're currently mobilizing for. We also took onboard new leadership, new CPO, Chief People Office and new Chief Marketing Officer and we changed a number of leadership setups. So I'll just come back to one of the more important ones in my next slide here. And again, we've also continued this doubling down on industry expertise. It is just one of the winning and differentiating factors for us is that we really know the industry verticals we operate in. So we are investing quite a lot in making sure we take that knowledge and we distill it so that we can reuse it and we can perfect the way we advise our customers in these industries. So one of the bigger changes, as I said, we merged our 2 Business Lines, Dynamics and Customer Experience. Dynamics being our biggest business line and CXE being sort of a midsized Business Lines with just a little bit less than 100 people. The reason for that is really threefold, as you can see. But we have very close dialogue with the senior teams of Microsoft now to understand where they're going future-wise. And we see a big convergence of technology. So ERP being the enterprise resource planning systems, financial planning systems, supply chain and all of that, as you know. CXE more front-end oriented, CRM, field service, membership portals, marketing automation, a lot of other things. But the platforms are really merging from a technology perspective. We could also see the way we go to market, the way our consultants operate. It didn't really make much sense to have them separately anymore. And then we also see some pretty strong synergies coming out of it. So we think it's prudent move, and it's front future-oriented. So actually, going forward from the next reporting, Brian, you will report them as a combined unit. You could then ask, well, what about revenue from CXE and was CXE a Microsoft-only unit? No, it was not, but it was 90%, 90% plus based on Microsoft. So the few bits and pieces that are not Microsoft will be integrated into other Business Lines. So it's been a fairly straightforward integration of those lines. Yes, that was really it for me to start with, and then it's over to you, Brian. And we'll move to the financial highlights, Brian.

Thank you, Soren. And let me start with the Q4 before we jump into the full year numbers. So we just finished up with a small update on the quarter. We ended the quarter quite flat on revenue growth, 1 percentage point with some major differences in the underlying markets. But basically, our 2 biggest Business Lines, as I normally referred to Dynamics and M3 ended with a plus 2% and a minus 2%, so fairly flat. Underlying our data AI and CXE actually ended up with a double-digit growth also in Q4. Whereas our Digital Commerce, which has 60% of their business in Sweden and a lot within the retail business, again came out with minus 11% for the quarter. Sweden and Norway, which has also been mentioned during the year is where we see the biggest headwind and that continue, although we start to see some light at the end of the tunnel, it's still a rough weather up there. So they saw a decline in Q4. Denmark, U.K. and U.S. continued as the rest of the year with a double-digit growth in Q4. So we are happy to see that we continue to gain market share, especially in Denmark. U.K. and U.S. is so big, so talking about market share is probably a bit early. To the future and we looked into Q4, we decided to adjust a bit, as we also mentioned, especially within our digital commerce business. So in the quarter, we had quarter-over-quarter, we are around 50% people less of 4%. And it's not normally a number we have such comment on, but I think it's important for us to say that we, of course, constantly adjust the machine room to cater for the activity and also to have the right people on board and yes. Efficiency level ended at the same level as last year in Q4 on 62 percentage points, still slightly under what we would like it to be, but that also reflects the actions we took on a smaller adjustment in some of the business line and in some of the countries where we see some headwind. That was Q4. Let's move into the full year again. Revenue, as Soren mentioned, 8% growth overall. And where did it come from? Again, I almost said is our Dynamics business running very well and ended with 11% growth for the year. Very strong growth, in particular in Denmark and U.K. markets, if I have to mention a few. M3, 6% growth, solid growth. They ended a few very big contracts in the first half, where you saw a probably higher growth percentage than in the latter of the year, average 6%. And when you are changing major contracts, you tend to see some people sitting a bit more on the bench than you would like to because it's a big chunk of good colleagues that have to shift to new projects. Digital Commerce, mentioned before, full year 8% decline in revenue due to the heavy retail market, especially in Sweden. And then our 2, not small, but strategic Business Lines, data and AI and CXE continue to see very strong growth, also, as I mentioned, in Q4. So we're happy to see that is continuing, especially the AI business is really running well. Good. If we look at the profitability of our Business Lines, we measure that on the contribution margin. Dynamics, which is by far the biggest contributor, if we look at real money, DKK 251 million they brought in, had a small increase of 1% from 26% to 27%. And remember, our overall goal is to be on the top end of the 20s forward. M3, which I mentioned, did see some slow on -- a slowdown in the middle of the year, end of the year due to the shift of projects. We are pretty confident that, that will come back here in 2025. But that meant also that they stayed on the around 20% margin for the year in 2024. Digital Commerce, we spoke a lot about it during the year, major restructuring and that had simply hit them on the bottom line as well. Also here, we feel comfortable that they get back in the double digits at least for this year, 2025. But they did drag also the group down during the year. Data AI and CXE, just take them jointly, they see a very strong growth, and we continue to invest in them also in the people and the delivery. And that does sometimes hurt a bit on the bottom line if you don't manage to match 100% and you never do that in consulting, I learned the intake and new projects and investment in people. So there, we see a smaller decline in these 2 fast-growing business lines. Yes, that was all for the bottom line on our -- in our Business Lines, which is approved. As a CFO, I always want more, but I think if we look into the general market, the general headwind out there, competitor situation, I actually think it's very well done by our combined team around the globe. If we just look at the revenue per market units for the year. Sweden also mentioned during the year, and I doubt it's the last time we will mention it, still seeing some rough times out there. And the general outlook for Sweden, depending on which bank you are listening to or where you are hearing the news is starting to look brighter and we also get the feeling -- spring feeling, but we still need to go through a bit headwind. That is my thinking. Denmark, we continue very strong growth in '24 as well as in, I remember in '23, the same with U.K. U.K. also where we acquired a new company, Endless Gain. So the underlying organic growth was around 26%, if I remember right. So these 2 countries, we actually have a very strong teams and super reputations among customers gaining new share -- market share. Norway, flattish. We do a big effort to get a bit more substance up there. The market is still difficult like Sweden, but we're keeping a fine momentum and definitely on top of it up there. U.S., flat development, but smaller numbers. But we are staying there because we have a lot of customers that would like us to be there, and we definitely see a lot of referral work as well coming that way. Good. Then I have added an extra slide this time, some other performance indicators like cash flow. As Soren also mentioned, we have seen a nice uptake in our operational cash flow, 77% in '24 compared to '23, which we are very happy about. For me, it's an indicator that as long as our customer pay on time, they are happy. And if they're not, they won't. And we actually have good track record there and a high focus in the organization to keep that -- to keep them on the toe here. And then the other one is the enabling functions. That's one of our strategic pillars that we would like to over time dilute and make that more efficient. And then we measure that in percentage of revenue. So we have -- we're making sure that we over time dilute this cost base. And what we mean with enabling functions is all the back office functions, finance, facility marketing, HR and IT. Good. That was a fast walk through of the numbers. Then my final slide is sustainability. It's around 56 pages in the annual report. So we simply also have to spend one slide here. We spent quite a big effort to establish our own ESG organization. We now report under the full package, CSRD directive. We have been audited and everything went fine. And we have been through the different -- and I would ask you to read that in the annual report because that would simply be too technical and too long to go through here. But we -- basically, our main effort is to support our customers in running a sustainable business. That is where we, by far, have the biggest impact around that. All right. Then I'll hand over to you again, Soren.

Thank you. We'll just cover the outlook and I'm ready for the questions. But based on the financial performance of '24 and the current order book and pipeline forecast, we maintain our full year guidance for 2025 as announced in our previous message, which means that we aim for an organic growth of 7% to 9% and an EBITDA margin of 10% to 12%. You can see that in comparison to 2024, where we achieved 7% and then a growth -- organic growth and 9.2% EBITDA margin. I'll just come back to because I think there are some questions about growth and what is this growth outlook based on. So I think we should go straight into some of the questions here.

Perfect. Let's do that. The first question is you are in the strategy process. Have you seen any effect on the employees? Some key employees looking -- going away from the organization due to some uncertainty, such a process always can instill. So a little bit on the key employee side. Have you seen anything from you going out with this to market as you need to?

Okay. But great question. And obviously, this is a process that our -- that interests our employees and so it should. But the short answer to, do we see any of them exiting because of that is clear no. We also measure very carefully our employer satisfaction score, our engagement scores. We do what we can to communicate. We're also limited there. But I think most of them understand that we come very much from a position of strength into the process. If there was any negative, I think in terms of attracting new talent, sometimes you can have new talent that say, okay, you sound like the right place for me to join, but let me just wait until we've seen the strategic review that would typically be more senior people. So -- but in essence, it's not really a challenge for us.

And then there's a little bit about your '26 target on the growth side. Could you please clarify your 2026 growth target? I understand the 10% is not driven by all organic growth. Is that correctly that you also have included in that some M&A -- potential M&A activities?

Okay. So let me try to talk to this one. Achieving 10% growth, and that could -- some of it could be nonorganic. But actually, we have been producing previously in '22 and '23. We have been performing at that level organically. I would look at it like this. I think it's proven that you can see that we have been outperforming the market by quite a lot in the past year since '21. But we are not immune to the market conditions. So the way we -- the data we benchmark against has shown that we could grow about double the pace of the market, which I think is also true for '24 on the organic part. So as we enter into '25, what we have seen there was a market slowdown towards the end of the year. We are seeing some turning points, but the market here in Q1 is not up to full speed yet, but we're seeing momentum gathering. And in some of our business units, they are actually already busy. For instance, M3, we talked about our second biggest line has already sort of gone up into a much higher activity level, but not all business units have followed through. So that's what we're monitoring for '25. What is the market growth percentage, and then we will have to keep outperforming that market growth percentage by something. And then, of course, going back to the cash flow and also the -- I would call it a very low debt leverage of the company. And again, depending on the outcome of the strategic review, M&A is a theme, which is likely to be -- to have a bigger part of our future once we pass that. That's what I can say to that.

Perfect. So there is some calculation, but as you include M&A, then it's not that relevant because that can give some bumps there.

Yes.

A little bit on your guidance here. Sweden, is that a swing factor? As you mentioned, are you seeing some green shoots in your pipeline also? Everybody is talking about that's an industrial economy. That is what's maybe we'll see a boost next year and should also then, I guess, fill down on the consumer side. So have you baked anything into your guidance? Are you seeing anything in your pipeline? Because that seems to be the swing factor that will be bottom range and the top end of your guidance.

Yes. And obviously, we guide on what we see. And I mean, we read -- I read a lot of our big customers' financial results because it usually indicates their willingness to invest in new technology. We read the macro reports to see PMI numbers. But we also look a lot at our own pipeline. How many deals are we negotiating for? How much are we bidding for out there. And a number of these indicators are turning so to be more positive. And then the next stage for us is to close the contracts. This is what I said it has already happened in M3 to a large extent, is starting to happen also in the Digital Commerce area. But then the final step, once we've closed the contract is actually you think then we're up to full speed the next day. But for these big projects, for big customers, you don't achieve full speed the day after contract signature. These are -- the way we run projects here is that usually, there's a smaller team that enters first and they do the exploration, they find out if all the planning assumptions were right, they mobilize the project and then we roll on more and more resources. And that's what we're going through now in a number of these business lines. So we've not seen it fully materialize, but we are seeing some positive signs. And I think it's fair also to say that people should not expect miracles to happen from Q4 last year to Q1 this year. Usually, the way consulting works is that once it's up and running fast, it runs for a long time. And -- but once it's been a little bit slower, it takes a few months or quarters to get it up to full speed. So that's how I read the market for '25. Okay. I'll just run quickly, Michael, here, just to cover a few more questions. I realize we are over time. There's one about hiring for '24.

Yes, hiring. Can you do it by efficiency?

Yes. So we guide our hirings a lot by efficiency. And that means that we are -- we've always been hiring also in '24, but it's very, very targeted. So there is no blanket like let's be 150 people more, everybody tries to increase it. It's not that kind of market we're in. We look at each business unit in each geographical market and sometimes in each competence category, and we say, this, we are definitely short on, and then we have a push for hiring that. But at the same time, we could be adjusting sites downwards in another unit, in another country. So this is about being -- so the job of me and Brian and other executives is really about truly understanding the details of the business here. You can't paint with a broad -- I don't even know what that's called in English, but you have to be -- it's a sharp pencil that you need to do your hiring plans at the moment. I already commented on the strategic process.

Yes. And then there's a little bit about the security line. You mentioned you have integrated, but you can't open a newspaper without seeing that the attack on Danish company is rising. Is there some possibilities for you out there and are you seeing that performing well?

Yes. So there are definitely possibilities, and we have a lot of activity on this. It has been a little bit of a difficult market to operate in. As you say, you can read about it every day in the paper. I can have a meeting with virtually any Board or executive team in all the companies you know. But turning it into actual business has proven a little bit more difficult than we thought despite bringing onboard really good resources. I think our recipe for success here is that the companies are actually not willing to spend that much money on their security setup in isolation. So for us, the response has been, it has to be baked into all the solutions, which is also luckily how Microsoft and other big companies see it. So they bake a lot of functionality into their Infrastructure as a Service solutions, their software platforms. But the customers, it's not automatic. So they're not automatically secure. There's a lot of obligation on our customers to be able to make use of those, and they're not. So now we have our security business much more integrated into our core business lines, which seems to be working. It took us a while to figure it out, but I think we're on the right track now. And it's an area I'm expecting a lot from in the coming years.

And there's a little bit on AI traction. I've seen something by the customers. There's a lot of talk, the costs are going down, but there's also a lot of talk that companies are not ready for it. So a quick answer here so we can get to the questions, but I know there's no quick answer here. So try it on.

So there's a lot of traction, and it means a lot for our customers. And I would definitely say it's already driving revenue, both in our data and AI business line, but also in our core ERP business lines. There's only one short way of saying it. We are -- I cannot stress enough how much we are just at the beginning and how much value is still -- so we are still at this technology stage where we are really impressed by what's possible. But turning this into value is where -- is really where the difficulty lies for many of our customers. And we've just started the journey. And once that journey -- so I'm part of some planning -- technology planning discussion forums. I think there's 2 or 3 waves to come before we can even -- so it's quite abstract, but this will be one of the biggest drivers of work for consulting companies like ourselves for the next decade. So we are just at the surface of it by now. And I see also -- I see -- I don't want to seem like I'm avoiding it. There is this that we need to answer more clearly on that insider. I will come back to that in a little bit and comment. So just -- yes.

Send an e-mail to your IR and contact and then you can answer that. In Denmark, you must be taking market share on all the data I'm also seeing. Which areas is that? And is that sustainable? The feeling here that this can be sustained this high growth rate in Denmark.

Yes. I think it's natural to expect from -- so what we've seen in the past 4 years is in the beginning, we had Sweden and Norway as the powerhouses of growth and then Denmark and particularly the U.K. have taken over. So I wouldn't say that I expect sort of an unbroken record of this. We're also getting in some of our business units to a very significant size. That's the Dynamics one particularly. So there could be some fluctuation. But all in all, we're seeing Denmark as a really good market. And I would say definitely on the Dynamics side, we've been taking market share. It's important to understand about our...

Dynamics, ERP market also stronger. It's one of the stronger market and that...

Market share for Dynamics is higher in Denmark than in most other geographies. I think that's fair to say. And that also means that there's a longer history, and that also means that we have a very skilled team here in Denmark, and we actually do make use of them in other countries as well. And this is the balance we got wrong 4, 5 years ago, we were overinvesting our Danish resources in building out Sweden and Norway because the talent base hadn't been built up in those 2 countries yet. So we sort of needed to export. We're not doing that at all to the same extent, but we are still seeing them deployed in other markets. And we have to be careful that it doesn't take away from our business development effort in Denmark. But Brian and I, we lead the business based on the overall business. And of course, we keep an eye on the individual markets, but we more look at Dynamics as a division. So we shift resources as needed and where we get the most bang for the buck.

Perfect. Then let's jump -- let's torch some questions. I know you have something you need to catch. Have your view on the market changed since you released the new heights strategy?

Yes. We would have to say yes. I believe the research -- we commissioned research before we wrote the -- or defined the new heights strategy. That research -- basically, this is like a Gartner, what's the growth prediction of the market, except we ordered something bespoke for us, which we for our geographical markets and exactly where we operate. That did tell us that the decline was coming and we're going into these more flattish markets. And that has happened. So since we launched it, we have seen a decline in the market growth rate. I personally look at this as pent-up demand. All our customers have the same digitalization plans, but they've been more cautious. So I think what we will see once they get a little bit more planning clarity or I don't know, it got to the new normal. We seem to have one event after the other at the moment. But their fiscals are actually fine, so far, that investment. I cannot see -- and I should say this is my personal opinion, I cannot see that this overall digitalization market should be less than a 10% growth rate. It has always been that for decades and decades and sometimes much higher. I look forward to returning to something like that, and I look forward to Columbus trying to beat that market growth rate continuously.

And then last question, which things should be -- which things needs to be improved in '25 to increase your efficiency or how much of the percentage of the employee you are able to bill the customers and you're still maintaining your profitability. So a little bit what -- are there some things that should be improved for you to increase your billing per employee?

Okay. Great. Okay. So let's take the things that we're sure of first. I think in terms of the rates we're achieving in the market, we -- well, Brian is never happy, but I think we're doing really good. We've managed to adjust our rates in the past years. So that is an important component, of course. that's pretty solid. The quality of the work we conduct so that we don't have to do free work, guarantee work is very low. We got that one under control. I think even the efficiency, which the question is mainly focused on, is also under control. And I can -- actually, even in a pretty -- a market which is a little bit constrained like it is now, I can see us improving that a little bit further, not to like the full, full, full swing of what we can do, but we can even improve that further with fairly high certainty. What we really want to do here and coming back to the overhead percentage that Brian was talking about is grow the headcount again because the business model is really working for us. But at the current time, as I said previously, we have to be a little bit cautious on how quickly do we grow the organization. So in terms of -- this is learning something. So in percentage, I think, is one thing, but the absolute number that we can produce that we can churn out is really what's depending on the market, so we can be more people. The organization now, the model, the systems, the processes, the operations, cash flow, everything that we talked about is set up for more. So at some point, we would like to bring on more activity, more revenue in terms of more people organically or we could go M&A on it.

There are some questions about the multiples you wanted to buy at, but that we have actually talked about in the later program. I'm sorry, it's not to be harsh, but we don't time. But you can actually watch the formal presentation where we went through which multiples you like to buy at. So that's a possibility. But thank you to you, Brian and Soren...

And that also changes over time, I should say before you because it's a while ago, we talked about it, so...

But thank you to you 2, for taking us through your results and answering questions. And I know you have somewhere to be. So we need to stop now. So thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you. Bye-bye. Have a good day.