Commerce.com, Inc. (CMRC) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Daniel, like a lot happened the last few weeks. So in terms of events, share price reactions, where the market is going, et cetera.

So maybe to start off, like maybe to ground ourselves all like talk a little bit about your last quarter, what were the highlights from your perspective and we can take it from there.

Yes. I think that -- Thanks for the question. I think in a lot of ways, last quarter was indicative in a lot of ways of the progress that we've seen across the year. For those that know me, I'm as open about the areas where I think we need to improve as the areas where I think we're executing well. And I think that when I look at the results on Q3, there were some parts in there that I think showed really good execution. And then it also, I think, highlighted areas where I think we can and need to do a little bit better. So if I look at where we were kind of going into this year, like a lot of companies in small cap software that were kind of growing at a relatively fast rate, but were burning cash, that's not sustainable obviously in a normal interest rate environment that I would argue that we're in. And so going into the year, we said that if we needed to sacrifice a point of profitability or 2 here and there to have an outsized benefit in improvement in profitability and cash flow, that we would do that. And so kind of going into the year, we were really prioritizing getting to EBITDA breakeven by the end of Q4, which is a starting point. I say internally all the time, nobody is going to throw confetti on us because we're not losing money. Like that's just getting to a starting line that a lot of companies are needing to do. And we wanted to do that in a way that was really building better cash flow, focusing on working capital. And I think both of those areas, the results in the year have been good. I mean we've had 19 points of margin improvement across the last 5 quarters and it's been at a very steady sequential way. We've averaged, I think, 375 basis points of operating leverage every quarter for the last 5 quarters. And we've gone from negative 19 to breakeven essentially in 5 quarters. Really proud of that. I think we're seeing good results in cash flow. Deferred revenue was up 85% last quarter year-over-year. But that also reflects how much runway we have ahead of us still in terms of what we're doing with advanced billing and cash. Those I think are good. An area where I think we can and need to be doing a little better is on the revenue growth rate side of things. And so if I think about over the course of the last few weeks, there's been a lot of things that we've been doing from folks that we brought in on the leadership side of things, the playbook that we're looking to run as we continue to move up market and mid-market and enterprise. And we can speak to that if you want, and we'll get in more details on that as well. But I think the reaction we got for the quarter, I think, in general was, okay, like I'm seeing real market improvement. And what we're seeing in terms of profit and cash flow, it's good. You're doing what you said you were going to do, but we'd like you to get there while obviously showing a little bit better revenue growth rates. And yes, the macro climate has been tough this year. But I would argue that there's a lot in our control even despite some of those headwinds that we can and will improve and execute better on.

So -- and I'm asking you like one short-term question, and then I want to double click on some of the points you mentioned here. But just to get it out of the way because I know I'm going to get the questions like we just had Thanksgiving, Black Friday, et cetera. Like what are the stats that you saw this year? And how does that compare with expectations?

Yes. I mean we saw between Thanksgiving and Black Friday, I think, same-store sales basis 8% year-over-year growth. Full Cyber 5 total platform is more like a 10% growth rate which was better than the market as a whole. I mean, we're taking share, and I think that reflects that. But it wasn't as much of a premium to the market as I think where we can be. So in that respect, I think it was good but not as good clearly as where I think it could be. So in terms of versus expectations, going into the year, just in general, I think consumer spending has been fairly resilient. E-commerce growth rates are a little lower than where they were pre-pandemic, which I don't think I expected necessarily, at least to that degree. But it's been in line with how we built our plans. And thus far, in Q4, it's been pretty for the most part in line with where we thought things were going to be and where we set our guidance and numbers.

Yes. Okay. Perfect. Okay, makes sense. And then the -- let's go a little bit deeper into kind of where you wanted to go as a company. And then one of the big push areas and that was pre-IPO already was we want to be more enterprise.

Right.

Can you maybe talk a little bit about the motivation? Like what was -- what's driving that?

Yes. So when Brent joined the company in -- as CEO in 2015 I believe, when he sat down and looked at the company, he said, okay, who is following the playbook that opens source followed before, in the on-prem era, to say, all right, we're going to build a flexible open platform that moves up market and mid-market and enterprise and follows that playbook but does it in the SaaS world. And there wasn't really anybody doing that. And so he made a decision at that point to start directing all of our R&D investment towards opening up the platform and then, over time, moving us up market and then mid-market and now beyond into enterprise. But today, I'd still say would -- I'd classify as the lower end of enterprise where we are today, right?

Yes. So -- and how do you define that space? It's like do you do it on the GMV?

Yes. For most part. Yes, for us, an enterprise opportunity starts at probably $50 million a year in GMV and goes up into the several hundred millions of dollars in GMV. We do have some clients, we do get some [ at bats ] and deals that are doing over $1 billion. That's not our -- the high-frequency deals that we're getting involved in. It's in the hundreds of millions today. That'll change as we continue to move up market. We have launched several features over the past couple of years that have kind of enabled us to move up. But as we've kind of pursued that strategy and as the product has matured and its product market fit as we go up, it's enabled us then also to follow the product changes and start redirecting our dollars and our spending even in now hiring our company President, Steven Chung, bringing in kind of that more enterprise B2B SaaS playbook that is focused on land and expansion of existing customers. We talked about on our last call over the last few years anywhere from 60% to 70% of our subscription revenue growth has come from landing new logos or new stores. And that's a very expensive way to fuel revenue growth, especially in a tough macro climate. And so I'd like to see it get to where it's more balanced, maybe even potentially majority coming -- of our revenue growth coming from existing customers. I think we can get there. And that's kind of the motivation between some of the changes that we've made recently in hires and restructuring.

That's a good point on like the mix between new and existing. But look, before we go there, like you mentioned some of the things in terms of like people, et cetera to go more enterprise. What are other ways? Is there like more targeted marketing, like where you spend your advertising dollars? Like how do you kind of move up market? How do you kind of drive that?

There's a few different ways that we're going about that. One, I give as an example, it's a different motion, like we tend to be more partner-centric than direct marketing spend-centric as an example. So I tell a story a lot. My daughter sometimes will ask me, "Dad, I'm tired of hearing your competitors' ads on Spotify, right? When am I going to hear a BigCommerce ad on Spotify?" And my answer is, "Honey, you're 15. I hope you never hear a BigCommerce ad on Spotify because you are not our target customer," right? So how are we going about that? Up to 1/2 of our leads for new customers in any given quarter tend to come from partner channels, whether that's coming from a technology partner or a systems integrator or even a performance marketing agency on the Feedonomics side of things. And it's much more about building that kind of network effect and word of mouth as you're going up market. It's more about you have a really good performance on an implementation that builds confidence, add additional brands or geographies. If you're working with a partner, they're going to then recommend you into additional clients. And it kind of starts to build on itself over time. It's not about direct marketing spend, brand recognition. That tends to be more of the playbook that small business-oriented platforms [ call ].

Yes, somewhere down below. Yes. I mean like with the focus, like if I look -- and devil's advocate question now a little bit, like your growth this year like suffered even on the enterprise side, despite all the focus. Is that just all the cycle? Or is there anything you could have done differently?

I'm going to say -- I'm going to answer the question with some nuance because a lot of it, I believe, is macro driven, but I think we could have managed through the macro more effectively than -- in some ways than I feel like we have. What I mean by that is if you just look at the effects on -- we've talked in the last couple of earnings calls where I've spoken about the dynamic we're seeing where some larger customers are saying, "Well, listen, we charge up to a certain amount of orders to be processed on the platform. You pay a fixed fee for that. And then if you go over that amount, you pay overage charges." And if you have a merchant that signed up during the pandemic, they may have seen great results on the platform. But maybe they got to 80% of the amount of orders that they thought they were going to get to when they signed up during the pandemic. And so we've had a phenomena especially over the past 2 or 3 quarters, where they've, in some cases, reached out to us and say, "Listen, I'm maybe 20% below where I thought I was going to be when I signed up with you. Can I have a -- I know we're in the middle of the agreement, but can you work with me on the price", which these are long-term relationships for us. Like this isn't a transactional thing for me. So we'll say, "Okay, we'll have that conversation, and you're not going to get the same discount. We need to talk about advanced payment terms and things like that." We've seen more of that type of impact this year, a little bit more than I expected. If we would have just seen the same type of gross dollarized retention rates we've seen over the past few years, we would have seen growth rates in the mid-single digits higher than where we're out looking for this year. Now that is macro triggered, maybe macro exacerbated. But at the end of the day, I think that us organizing ourselves better to have sales own the relationship with a customer end to end and be the ones leading those renegotiations or focusing on expansion, I think we would have probably had a little bit better results than where we did, which has gotten into -- by hiring and Steven, we're changing some of the metrics and how sales owns those relationships end-to-end, they're going to be gold on different things. They're going to be gold on net revenue retention. And there's been very specific things that we're doing and measures and incentive systems that I think are going to improve that a lot. So I do think a lot of it was essentially the macro, but we're not off the hook simply because the macros -- I mean investors expect us to perform better in a tough macro than our peers. I think we've done reasonably well, but there are certainly some areas I think we can continue to do better.

And then the -- you mentioned earlier the kind of mix between new customers and existing customers and you want to change it towards more existing, which I get.

More a balance. More a balance.

More a balance, yes. Or more balanced, yes. The one question I have is like so that means usually you kind of get more from the installed base by kind of upselling, cross-selling, like. But the one thing that I'm getting from investors is that you either buy a system from you or you don't buy a system from you. So what's the cross-selling, upselling motion that you could do better?

Okay. I would say it's vertical and horizontal. From a horizontal perspective, we have several different products that are available that we sell. We're not just a platform company, right? So if it is an e-commerce platforming discussion, obviously, you have that product. If you're having a conversation with folks that are omnichannel and they're looking to optimize their spend in omnichannel advertising or selling, that's our Feedonomics product. In many cases, that's a different buyer persona than who's buying the platform product. Either one of those are ways that we get into relationships and start building relationships with accounts. We also recently bought Makeswift which was a small acquisition that we did last quarter. It's one of the best tools in the world to do Next.js site development, right, that we are going to build into kind of our core Page Builder and our out-of-box product. But if you are a content development agency, you -- maybe a fraction of what you do is e-commerce, but you do tons and tons of volume just creating content websites, Makeswift is fantastic for that use case as well. And by back half of next year, we want to have that to where it's separately sellable. So there are different ways and different products to get in different verticals that I think is kind of underappreciated. And then that's just the horizontal. From a vertical perspective, I mean if you look at -- you can get one brand and one geography on the core platform product. Do really well, get them up and running and then you use that as your way of then getting into the next brand and the next geography and that type of thing. And there's a lot of cross-sell runway that we have ahead of us. More so, the more that we move up market I would add, right? The more low market, you're kind of more, I landed it, I get it up and running and then it just runs. As we move up market, it opens up a lot more expansion opportunities.

Is there also like -- and that's why the new hires come in here like an argument to think like you can do a better job there, like or was it not a focus or not enough of a focus or you had to -- kind of you did it -- just go about it the wrong way?

We talked about this a lot internally over the course of the last few months as well. I mean we had a restructuring lately also where -- and I was describing for our own employees, like what's the process that we are in the midst of, right? And our roots as a small business platform going back years, some of it's just the behaviors and the way of thinking, sometimes there's more high velocity, lower average sales price if you're coming from a small business selling environment. And then as the product matures and moves up market, then the go-to-market, the vernacular, the measurement systems kind of also kind of follow the product as you're going up market. It's always been a focus of ours to do expansion, right, and to focus on net revenue retention. But some of the ways that we were organized weren't optimized for that, right? If you -- if we would land an account, the seller would turn that relationship over to a services and support team that would own that relationship going forward. If they saw opportunities to expand into other regions or -- regions or brands, they may pull the seller back in, right? But that's not optimal. I mean I was an AE for years. That's not how I did it then done either, right? And that makes more sense when you're more small business, lower end of the market. When you're up market, though, sales owns the relationship beginning to end, they're built accordingly. And now that we've gotten to a point to where we've -- the product is there, we've moved a lot of our demand gen dollars there. Now we're moving the structure and the leadership and the way we're doing it in line with that, it's kind of a culmination of a process that we've been going over through for several years. It's why I have just a lot of bullishness and confidence on our ability to drive more profitable faster revenue growth rates than where we've been this year. This year, a lot was about tightening up the quality of bookings, the quality of earnings, getting profitable and cash flow where it needs to be. And we can run more efficiently and better and then macro starts to be a little bit more in line with historical averages. There's a lot of runway and upside for us that I'm really excited about.

Yes. And then the -- I mean the macro environment is the same for everyone. Like what are you seeing in terms of the competitive dynamics there especially as you move more up market? It's a slightly different set of competitors. It's not one big one below. Like what are you seeing there in terms of like how you're competing more effectively, you're competing...

We've seen really good consistent win rates doing very well against larger competitors, especially the big conglomerates that we compete against, and even more so in some of the larger players that are more oriented towards small business platforms. We've seen it from -- especially for those competitors we have, whether it's Adobe or Salesforce, it's really Magento and Demandware, from what we can tell, there hasn't been a lot of investment in those platforms since the acquisitions. And then we bring over leaders to our team that used to work at those teams and they kind of echo a very similar sentiment. They're still formidable competitors. They have good sellers and it is a good product. It's not a layup by any stretch but do very, very well. And it depends on the competitor, but we've seen the market is very receptive. For our target market, which is you're looking for customers that have -- our ideal customer profile, they have sophisticated use cases. They value the openness of the platform so they can pick and choose what that platform is doing. It's not a vertically integrated strategy where we're trying to get everybody to use white labeled versions of our products and say, "Listen, if what's best for you is to use this payments provider instead of this payments provider because they're integrated in your systems and you've been working with them for years, you can use them for this and then add in One-Click checkout from PayPal here." And that flexibility, for the enterprise merchants that we're talking to and who we're really focused on, that really, really resonates with them. And it really allows us to compete really effectively as we've been going up market.

Yes. Okay. And then the -- if you -- then let's spend a little bit of time, so you have the enterprise motion and that is the one that I kind of probably hold you most accountable for going forward because that's kind of the one that should drive the future. What have you seen on that kind of more lower end of the market? And we don't want to totally forget about that and still selling into there, like what has been going on there?

What we've seen in our part of -- in that business for us, I think that our product is really, really, really well configured and well suited for established small businesses. The entrepreneurial set, if you're getting up and running on the product and you say, "Well, listen, configuring BigCommerce and I have all the selection and configurability and choice."

Yes, too much.

For some merchants, if it's an entrepreneur, if it's my daughter starting a small business, she may not need all of that sophisticated capability and we may charge the same price and we would argue you get way more out of the box for what you're paying with BigCommerce than you would for one of our competitors. But if it's -- if you're a really, really simple use case entrepreneur, you may be -- you may find it easier to get up and running on a Woo or a Wix or a Shopify or something like that. For that segment and part of our business, for me, that business, we're going to continue to invest in it, but it's not going to be a disproportionate grower for us. We've done a number of things actually over the course of the last year we talked about. We're really looking to shore up the unit economics in that part of the business for us. We were really spending a lot of demand gen dollars on that part of the market, and it wasn't -- it just doesn't have as good of a retention or unit economics profile as we see as we've gone up market. Now that's gotten substantially better for a number of reasons over the course of the last year. We've incentivized prepayment in that part of the business as well. The amount of merchants that are choosing to pay annually in advance even in the small business product is materially higher than where it was a year ago, which is really useful for us from a retention point of view. It's also a really good hurdle to help make sure that we're talking to the right small businesses. If you're able to pay a year in advance, that is an existing business, it's an established business. It's almost like it's on signal that that's the right one. We also -- we took pricing up pretty materially, in line with competition, so we didn't like go ahead of what the market was. But that also has gone a long way also in shoring up the economics there. So we have a lot of optionality there. I'd like to see that business over the long run growing modestly. But frankly, that business could be flat to growing modestly and doing fantastically well if it's graduating people into enterprise plans and growing up from there like many of our -- some of our marquee clients that we have there on the platform. Started as a really small plan and it has grown from there.

Yes, yes, yes. Okay. That helps. The other big -- shifting gear again a little bit, the -- actually, before I ask about cost and all the work you've done in terms of like getting to EBITDA breakeven, on the product side, like I did ask everyone like how do you think about AI? Like does that play a role for you guys? I mean, in theory, content creation, especially on advertisements, sounds like AI, generative AI will play a big role there. Like what are you guys doing there at the moment or how are you thinking about it?

Yes. Let me address that from the point of view of how we're thinking about it in the product and then how we're thinking about it in terms of the way we're running the company. From the product point of view, we already have 20 or 30 different apps that have been developed to use AI on the platform. It's an open platform. It's an ethos for us. Like this is not just a business choice. It's a philosophical point of view of the company. And so we view customer data as their data not our data. And so we have a lot of concern that we have about, okay, how do I think about privacy? How do I think about making sure that IP is respected because that is their data? But we have a really tight partnership with Google as an example. Anybody that gets up and running on BigCommerce automatically has a subscription to BigQuery. So you can take all of your data from our platform and then put it into Tableau or whatever tool that you want to use or whatever other things. As a part of that openness, that then also means that there's lots of different developers that can go through and use the open APIs to create apps or modules that can use AI and plug it right into the platform. And that's already -- we had a hackathon sponsored by Google I think 2 months ago that was doing exactly that. On top of that, we're doing our own development of AI into some of the core features of the platform. For example, you can already go through and if you are putting new products up on the site, you can use AI to pick out the pictures that you want to use, I believe, and the descriptions and the product descriptions. It's just a time saver that's already built in. We're going to continue to do a number of things like that while keeping it all open. And I think our openness coupled with our partnership with Google and others, I think it puts us in a position to have some really leading capabilities in AI because we're not attempting to do it all ourselves. We're not trying to do it all. I don't -- for a whole host of reasons, I don't think that's the right way to do it. From how we're running the business internally, I think there's also a lot of really interesting use cases. I have a pretty high threshold in terms of -- or maybe not threshold, a high bar in terms of where I think these things can and should be used before I would put them into production. I think sometimes we can talk about AI like it's going to solve every single problem imaginable. But I need to make sure that our customers are taken care of. And if I'm really, really confident that AI can augment that, then we will. So for example, shortly before holiday, we actually added AI into the Control Panel. So if you're trying to get to tech support. And our average pickup time for tech support, to get a human being on the phone during Cyber 5 was, I think, between 10 and 20 seconds. A lot of our competitors don't even put a 1-800 hundred number on their website because they don't want you to talk to a person. They're trying to deflect all of it. We're kind of the polar opposite of that. But we have built in AI in the Control Panel, so you can use our entire knowledge base of articles, put -- and use all of the different natural language AI that's available to just enter your question directly in a Q&A format in the Control Panel. And we saw actually fewer calls going into our support queue than we expected because the answers are being taken care of through AI. And to me, like that's a very obvious first use case. And a lot of folks are talking about a lot of the same things. I think there's a lot of applications and things like that, that you can do. But I think you have to be careful. You can use AI to create marketing content, right? But it can only tune the model as well as the marketing content that you already have available. And so at the end of the day, you still need somebody with good creative license to look at the copy it's creating and say, "This resonates, this fits our ICP. This is what we want to do." And then we're going to look at them kind of one at a time and make sure that we can drive cost savings but do it in a way that respects our customers' privacy and their data privacy, make sure that we're taking really good care of our customers and picking up the phone if they have questions and not attempting to deflect them. You know what I mean? For this, we want it to augment their experience on the platform, not make it worse, obviously, and look for a lot of use cases to build this into the product. I'm excited about it. I think it's something that we can grow organically in a lot of ways over time.

And Dan, in the last few minutes, I want to shift gears a little bit. So the -- you've achieved something that I haven't really been able to find anyone else to -- that they achieve that, which is kind of the going from like a big loss situation into a breakeven. Talk a little bit about the action. And the one thing from -- like that I hear from long-term shareholders is a little bit like that they overkill it or that they overcut it and it was not organic enough. And so then you kind of see the growth kind of coming down because of the overcutting or cutting too quickly. How would you kind of -- maybe describe what you've done and how you would you answer that?

Yes, it's a great question, one that I get, not frequently, but occasionally. The natural question is, well, could you have had a higher growth rate if you had been willing to live with a bigger loss rate, right? And that implies a certain amount of where are you on the efficiency curve in terms of sales and marketing spending? But let me just clarify what we've done over the course of the last year and what we're thinking as we're going forward because it is not that. If you look at through Q3, our spending in sales and marketing year-over-year was basically flat, basically flat. Now I would look and say the -- across the entire industry, not just with us, the amount of growth in revenue that was being delivered based on the amount that's being spent, I don't think it was high enough. And I think that that's true across a lot of folks that are in our sector. And I've seen this in a lot of peers and competitors and how they're thinking about sales and marketing. And if you just look at magic number and pick your benchmark, it's been more challenging across the industry over the course of the last 6 quarters or so. I believe that the way that you can improve that is through a different model, right? I think that focusing more on a balance of expansion and new customer growth can get us much more efficient growth. The way we've gotten 19 points of leverage was not through cuts to sales and marketing, right? What have we done? How did we get there? Because I think if you look at where we were guidance for the year, I mean it's -- we did not get to the revenue growth plans that we had wanted to get to internally, but still got to the breakeven starting line a quarter earlier than we expected. Well, just do the math, that means you're just being really disciplined on your spending. How far can you take that? At some point, you have to have accelerating revenue growth in order to get further. So what have we done over the course of the last year? We've been -- a couple of areas I would call out in particular. One, just really disciplined about hiring, not only the number of people we're hiring, the seniority of the roles that we're hiring and where we're hiring them. Our geographic diversity of our employee base is much higher now than where it was 2 years ago. That's been kind of one of the benefits that we've seen of more of a hybrid work environment as it's allowed us to not be as concentrated in more expensive markets from a labor pool point of view. That's one. Two, we've been very much prioritizing what we're doing in terms of billing and working capital. Now, a big reason for that is from a gross retention and a stickiness point of view. Historically, again, small business roots of the company, we tended to charge monthly -- our customers monthly. Well, as we're moving up market, the market and enterprise customers are used to paying in advance. I am stuck paying in advance to all my enterprise software suppliers. And so we have been transitioning to focus on that a lot more, not overdoing it, not getting greedy but just being very reasonable about it. Well, as a result, you can see like our deferred revenue results have improved very significantly and yet have a very long way to go. Like we have such additional headroom that's available to us. And I believe cash flow can track ahead of our underlying profit for the next couple of years. But -- and one of the benefits of that though is we've had far better collections, we've had far lower bad debt expense. Like the quality of earnings and the quality of bookings and revenue that we're seeing in our business today is materially stronger than where we were 1.5 years ago. This has not been, listen, we're just going to cut everywhere to the bone in a short-term way that's not sustainable and repeatable and then eventually, you're going to have to pay for that. This has been structural improvements to how we operate, the way that we do sales promotions, the way we incentivize sales reps to focus on higher-quality deals with better cash generation. This is running the business in a better way, such that when we start to see better results in terms of revenue growth, which we need to post and are confident that we will, macro becomes a little bit less of a headwind than it has been. You start to get that kind of switch back to more normal growth rates where things have been. And you're doing that in a much higher quality, both profit and cash. It's a really, really strong financial performing company and that's really what I get really excited about. If I look forward towards the next year, the question about, well, did they cut too deep? I mean where we really had lower costs this year was in G&A and R&D, right? And so I would argue, no. We knew we were going to be able to save some in R&D. We had spent a lot of money developing multi-store fronts, some other capabilities. We knew we could kind of pull back a little bit and still run the business very well. And as I look at next year, I think that we can also see much better leverage in sales and marketing via the changes that we've talked about and how we're going to market. It is --in a tough macro environment, that's not a good time to be kind of disproportionately weighted towards new logo acquisition as your means of driving revenue growth, right? And we're moving off of that. I think it's going to be a much more balanced, faster growing and more profitable business going forward.

Yes. So we're all looking forward to the cycle picking up then again.

Yes. But as I say internally to our team all the time, our shareholders hold us accountable to doing better than other companies in all environments. And so the macro is not an excuse. You have to perform well and manage well through the macro. There's some ways I think we've done very well with that. But we have high standards and there's definitely some areas I think we can do better.

Did the -- did you guys -- last question for me, like did you guys then also from the management team, like how are you incentivized to kind of deliver on that?

So the way that our compensation -- the way that our incentive system is -- it's a function of top line profitability and bookings ultimately and the different weightings for that and stuff that we have to get it to in our disclosures, we did better in some than in others. But again, going into the year, we said, listen, like there's a graph that I show internally in some of our all hands where I can try to contextualize kind of what the business has been like over the last year for our employees. And it's something that I got from one of our banking partners that showed kind of a plot of growth rate and profit margin 2 years ago in B2B SaaS compared to today. And there were a lot of folks that were kind of growing at a higher rate but they were burning a lot of cash and it's just very much moved and consolidated all and now in the top right quadrant where it's a little slower growth rate, but everybody is getting profitable. That's good and rational in this interest rate environment. But that was a transition period. It's always challenging and difficult to do that. So I'm really proud of the team and the work that we've done. That said, I'm really excited about the upside we have on top line and the changes that we've made to do that.

Yes. Perfect. Hey, that's a good closing statement as well, Daniel. Thank you. I think our time is up.

That was good.

Thank you.

All right. Thanks.

Thanks, Daniel.

Thanks, everyone.

Thank you.