Commerce.com, Inc. (CMRC) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. Thank you, everyone, for joining us this afternoon, and my name is Chris Kuntarich. I have my colleague, [ Chris Sang ] here. We co-cover BigCommerce, and we're very happy to have Mr. Daniel Lentz here, the CFO of BigCommerce with us today. So again, thank you for joining us.

It is good to be here.

And look, we've got a handful of questions that we'd like to go through. But I think the thing that struck us the most as we look back at this year, there's been quite a bit of change. So maybe for the folks who are less familiar with the BigCommerce story, can you kind of walk us through those two, three points of key changes that you've made this year and how we should be thinking about kind of go forward from here?

Yes. If I think about all of the changes that we're in process of making, they're really laser focused around two things. One is driving better returns for shareholders than what we've demonstrated over the course of the last couple of years, and number 2 is really focusing on efficient revenue growth, which sounds kind of like a throwaway term that a lot of companies would say, like who wants to say they're driving inefficient revenue growth? Like, of course, that's what we're focused on. But it means very specific things when you look at the activities and the changes that we're making, right? So we want to make sure that we are acting with urgency and decisiveness to tackle some of the issues that we are experiencing, right? So we've made a lot of progress over the course of the last couple of years when it comes to contract quality, profitability, cash flow, overall financial health. There's a lot of really great things that we've done. We haven't posted the revenue growth, however, that the business is capable of, and ultimately, we want to make the changes that are necessary in order to get revenue growth rate reaccelerating in a way that it needs to. So if I look at what we've been doing across the course of 2024, it's really been focused a lot on the changes that we've been making on the go-to-market side, which is the genesis of hiring Travis Hess originally as company President. And also the continuation of that and now in him stepping in as CEO behind Brent as well, is really focused on implementation of a lot of best practices within SaaS that are not new to the world things, just things that we hadn't finished implementing yet that gets from fully integrating acquisitions that we've made, bifurcating our sales teams around B2B and B2C, organizing around offerings rather than around product. And largely speaking, if I look at where we are as a business and what we need to improve, number one thing that I'm focused on is sales and marketing efficiency, right? The issue is not, for us, the amount that we're spending, it's the amount of growth that we're getting relative to what we're spending. And there's a list of things that we need to change and how we're operating that can make a big impact in those areas. I could give you a laundry list of 20, but when I think about 2024, we really started getting down the path on those things. We announced a restructuring in our last earnings call. That was kind of one part cost out and one part reinvestment back in the business, which I'm sure we'll spend some more time talking about. And when I look at 2025, in some ways for us, it's a bit of a transition year where we think that we're going to be able to finish the things that we've announced, largely in the early front half of the year and really build momentum as we get across the year and make a substantial investment and increase in the amount of quota-carrying capacity we have in the business.

Got it. And just as we think about changes, obviously, Brent has departed. Travis was brought in previously as the President, and he's kind of dual hatting in that role of President and CEO right now. How should we be thinking about -- are the players on the field, so to speak, at this point? What kind of further changes could we be seeing at the C-suite?

We've had a number of departures, combination of exits and retirement over the course of the last few months. There's two main roles that we still have outstanding that we're working on backfilling now. One is the Chief Revenue Officer that will backfill what Travis was doing largely from a President point-of-view. We're not going to bring in a president like-for-like, we're going to bring in a CRO. That's number one. And then number two is the Chief Marketing Officer as well. Our former CMO retired, and so we're going to be backfilling her as well. We're actually pretty far along in the recruiting process for that as well. Beyond that, we've had a number of new folks that we brought in onto the team, whether it's General Manager, [ Al Wilson ]. She joined the team last week, actually, to run the B2C offering for us as a part of the business. We brought in Doug Hollinger to run the newly formed Strategy Group. We're going to be organizing around offerings rather than organizing around products, which I think we can spend more time talking about. And a number of new folks as well. Ryan Means running services and John Huntington running the partner organization from the kind of GSI point of view as well. So largely speaking, I'd say the team that we have is there and in place. I've been really pleased, though, with the level of talent that we've had as we've been kind of making some of these changes because I think it's a good time to get a refresh a bit on the leadership team. When you're making these types of changes, it's really good to bring in folks that have done this a number of times before, that have scaled it beyond where we are specifically on the go-to-market side of things. And I've also been really pleased to see us bringing in folks that know us from a competitive point of view that have been selling against us, actually, know where we're doing well in market, know what needs to be fixed in market. And the amount of interest that we've seen and folks that are wanting to join the company, I think, has been really outstanding, and I think it helps contribute to the optimism that I'm feeling.

Got it. And maybe just one last one on the changes that have been going on here. Obviously, you announced restructuring. I think the last two were something like 7% and 13% of headcount that were impacted. Can you kind of frame the scope of this? And what type of roles were primarily impacted?

Yes. Good question. So it impacted roughly 10% of the workforce overall. What was different about this is this was largely about a shifting of resources and reprioritizing where they were. So for every dollar that we are taking out and just letting flow straight to profit and cash, because we think we were running a little bit heavy, and we thought that we -- frankly, we just -- we want to see further accretion. We think we can do that. We also have been reinvesting $1 back into largely sales capacity. Now a lot of the way we're doing that is by shifting where we have rolled dispositions. So we had, I would argue, kind of a disproportionate amount of resources focused on pipeline generation, but it wasn't necessarily working in an efficient way where we didn't really have like established teams of -- not a great expression, but a bifurcation between more [ hunters and farmers ] from a sales team perspective, we didn't have assigned territories with existing reps and existing accounts the way that we should have, which there's reasons for that, but none of them are sufficient reasons. We just needed to fix it. And so what we've done is say, all right, well, if we were heavy in Department A, we have -- we can change the way that group is operating to get more efficient and then move some of those existing headcount into account manager roles and the like so that we have a shorter ramp period as they ramp into that new assignment, Meanwhile, bringing in some expertise, particularly in B2B and some other areas into more of those kind of new account acquisition motions that we can do kind of at the same time. So I feel good about the balance that we're trying to do here. I mean, ultimately, I believe that we have a lot of upside as a company. We're not growing at the rate that we need to, based on the investment that we've been putting in. We need to both continue to get more profitable and generate better cash flow while reaccelerating the revenue growth rate. And I look at where we are from a just overall sales capacity point of view, we need to actually have more sales capacity relative to where we are today for the growth rates we're already posting, and to get where we actually think the business should be, we definitely thought it was the right time to make investments, but we're not going to grow at all costs and all of a sudden start to take down our earnings. And we want to see continued margin expansion, and we are responsible to shareholders to do both, expand and do it efficiently.

All right. That's awesome. Just switching gears to something near term and top of mind for a lot of investors coming to this week. Can you talk about your visibility into the holiday season? And what's implied in your fourth quarter guide? And how are things shaping up so far versus last year?

Yes. So we actually have -- our Black Friday, Cyber Monday results are actually going to go out in the press release, I think, after close of business today. 7 a.m. tomorrow morning. My Head of Finance tells me at 7:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. So we're finalizing that. I'd say what we've seen so far has been encouraging and consistent with what we expected going into the holiday period. I've said all across the year from a demand signal point of view for the business, there's really two things that I look at as kind of a forward indicator of where things are. The first is where are things from a consumer demand point of view, just flat out consumer confidence, consumer spend. That's been resilient throughout the year. Signals that we're seeing so far seem pretty good. The things that I've seen come out, whether it's from Salesforce or Adobe or Shopify or others are -- they seem relatively strong. What we're seeing is consistent with that as well. It's good. The other kind of demand signal is more on the platform investment side of things, which is where we had a little bit more struggle, where we've seen pipeline improving this year, particularly in the area of B2B, which I'm really encouraged about, but we still didn't quite get to the pipeline growth that we wanted to be by this point in the year, which is part of what precipitated the changes that we've been making. But as I think about the guidance, we took a relatively conservative view on the fourth quarter as we thought about the holiday period and the guide. Last year in Q4, we saw a lot stronger results in the holiday period than what we expected, so we ended up with a little bit of a surprise of good results in Q4. That's kind of a rev share thing. It doesn't mean all of a sudden next year has a dramatically different thing. It's kind of an in-period improvement that you see from a revenue share perspective. We'll see how that plays out in Q4, but so far, it's been in line with what we expected.

All right. That's great to hear. And we'll definitely be looking out the results release tomorrow morning. And I guess, as you talk about some of the investments and maybe some of the areas of improvement, when we think about the March Investor Day, maybe at the high level, what should investors think about your Investor Day next year versus the one you had in 2022? And I guess maybe just to start, should we also be expecting the financial targets 4 years out again?

We will be sharing multiyear targets. Whether it's 4 years or 2 or 3, I don't know yet. What I would say where we are right now, we haven't done as good a job as we need to and how we stitch together the products that are a part of the company and have branding as one company, right? For a lot of folks, when we go in and interview them, they may not even necessarily know that Feedonomics is actually owned by BigCommerce, for example. And there's reasons for that. I mean, Feedonomics is a platform-agnostic omnichannel solution. We do tons of business on competing platforms. We will continue to invest in Feedonomics for it to be an omnichannel partner of choice for our competitors' platforms as well. But because we haven't had some of the integration that we should, we haven't gotten the brand halo that we could have from all of the assets together. So I think there's a little bit of a reintroduction that we need to do for the company, not just for customers but for investors to be able to say, okay, this is who we are as a company. The world looks very different for us just like it does for everybody since 2022, right? When we had our previous Investor Day, we were highlighting a lot of the changes that we were making in pretty aggressive international expansion, right? Looking back on that from a timing perspective, wasn't great timing because we actually -- it was 3- or 4-year paybacks on a lot of those new market launches, and within 3 months of making that decision, interest rates started moving in the other direction. We needed to make hard pivot to profitability like everybody else did because we're in a rational rate environment and leading up to that, we've had a decade of fairly irrational rate environment, right? And so I think we really want to use that Investor Day as an opportunity to kind of reintroduce the company, what are we as a company, not just to separate products, how do those things stitch together, and then more importantly, for investors, what does that look like from a revenue building block perspective that gives us confidence that we can reaccelerate growth next year? So I think we are setting modest expectations. That's been deliberate, because I think next year is going to continue to be a transformation year for us, but we think that we can have really strong momentum as we exit next year and then pull that into that momentum into 2026. And we'll share what that growth plan looks like and what are the different vectors of growth when we can get to the Investor Day. It's just 1 of those things like whether you're in a one-on-one or an interview like this, it's really hard to go through that in a systematic way in a 20-minute discussion, which is why we're going to be having the Investor Day in New York and kind of reintroduce the company at that point.

Right. Sounds great. At the risk of pushing a little hard, but just to the extent you can share, because you mentioned on the third quarter call that you're really focused on getting BigCommerce back to a sustainable and balanced kind of Rule of 40 profile. Should investors expect their financial targets to include a return to Rule of 40 next time? Or...

Yes. The question is the timing and the path. Part of the reason I said that on the last call is, I wanted to make it crystal clear that we are not going to go to a growth at all cost mode where we are just focused on top line growth at the expense of efficiency, profit and cash flow. I can't imagine any CFO in their right mind doing that. I'm certainly not going to do that. And so I wanted to make clear, when I think about long term what the business would look like, if we wanted to take further cost out and sacrifice long-term growth, we could do that. But I don't -- when I look at how the business is operating, it's not like I see us firing on all cylinders from an operational point of view that makes me say, no, we have optimized this. There's not much left there to fix. This is the growth rate that I think is sustainable, so let's start looking at how we can have further cost take out of the business. I just don't think that's where we are, right? I think that there's continued appreciation that we can deliver. I think there's costs we can take out and have, but I still think there's opportunity for us to have substantial growth. And I'd like to get to a point to where -- [ 40 ] is an arbitrary number, right? Like that's not a finish line. I think it's representative of a good balance business that where you look and say, "I'd like to see growth in the teens. I'd like to see profit margins north of [ 20 ]." The question is what combination of cost efficiencies and top line leverage do you need to see in order to get there and over what period of time. But that's not how I'm thinking about 2025. That's not where the business is today. Where we are today is I want to see in 2025 a reacceleration that's modest on the top line, and I want to see that in a way where we are having demonstrably better sales and marketing efficiency. Whether you look at magic number or payback or whatever you want to pick, it has not been at an acceptable level for the last 2 years. I want to see that turnaround such that we can have confidence to potentially reinvest more. But next year, I want us focus -- laser focused on -- I want to be one of your stereotypical boring CFOs that's talking about execution all day long and what are we doing right now to improve execution and get better returns for shareholders.

Got it. One of the comments Travis had made at the BigCommerce Summit was that you guys were getting too few at [ bats ]. I guess, what kind of road signs should we be watching along the way? And maybe just ask a little bit differently, like should this be more go-to-market that's really going to be driving this? How does product fit into this? How do you frame that?

I think product is part of it. I think we have overrelied on product differentiation as a means of commanding [ at bats ]. I don't think that we have done as good a job as we can and focusing the way we are going to market and talking about the company and the benefit that we provide to our customers from the point of view of the business. I think we have had more of a CIO-oriented message, if that makes sense, than a CMO or a CFO perspective. Now this gets into why do I -- why am I so excited and confident. I think Travis is the right person for where we are right now? He comes from a services background, right? He ran Shopify -- one of Shopify Plus' best agencies. He's been selling against us for a long time. So he has an outsider point of view to say, listen, these are the deals where I think BigCommerce makes the most sense. We are going to focus all of our resources into trying to own the space where the product resonates the best. Those are customers that have gone past the launch phase and they're into the scaling complexity phase of the business. If we're out there talking to digitally native start-ups, I'm frustrated because that's not where I want us spending money, right? Like there are many other competitors that do very, very well in that space. I want us talking to sophisticated B2B businesses that have -- want to have bespoke buying experiences that are different depending upon the customer. I want their catalog to be able to be shown in custom negotiated pricing, depending on the buyer, with different buy flows. Like I want B2C customers that are saying, okay, I do so much with omnichannel advertising and marketplace selling that I want to use AI offered through Feedonomics to optimize those results, such that I get much better conversion on the B2C side through that. That's just a different use case than where we've been, and I want to see us really, really focusing more and more there. I think as we get better at that, we're going to have much better presence in the right add backs. I'm not as concerned with the raw number. I'm concerned with are we spending money driving the ones where we have the highest right to win and customers are going to have the most success once they join the platform. I'm not that interested in just spending lots of money in lots and lots of places. When there may be a competitor that's better suited for that particular customer, I don't want to waste money on that. I want to be talking to the customers that are going to be the most successful in e-commerce, and there's a huge opportunity for us to grow share by being a lot more laser focused than we've been in the past.

Got it. And you talked about it a bit earlier on when we were talking about the restructuring and investing in go-to-market motion. Just where are those investment priorities as we look out to '25 beyond go-to-market? And how does that compare to '24? And as we kind of think about, from a modeling perspective, the drivers of non-GAAP OI, how should we be thinking about kind of the moving pieces between top line and bottom line and that comparison from '24 to '25?

Let's start with talking about investment areas, and then I'll finish with talking about how that flows through from a profit perspective. So if I think about just examples, some of the examples of areas where we're going to be investing in focusing is building out a self-serve version of Feedonomics dynamics as an example. We have tens of thousands of upper small business and mid-market customers that could opt directly into using that if the price point were advantageous. Today, if you're buying Feedonomics, you have to go through a sales rep and it tends to be a higher price point than a lot of the mid-market customers that we work with today are focused on. We're going to build out a self-serve version of that. You can go into a channel manager and say, well, I want to connect my catalog directly into Google or to Amazon. If I want to pay an extra x dollars a month per channel, I can actually have that optimized through Feedonomics AI and actually have the catalog optimized for that receiving algorithm and then that's expansion revenue that we can see. That's very big in B2C today, but we're also making investments to be able to make changes in additions to Feedonomics so that it can also be a great use case for B2B customers, which hasn't been as big of an area of focus. One example on the B2B side, we're going to -- I mean, over the course of the last few months, we open sourced the buyer portal that we have as a part of B2B. So now B2B customers, like really complex businesses, can actually completely customize what that buying experience is, depending upon the buyer. That's different than wholesale use cases in B2B, which I'm happy and excited to do that business. But I mean, we're working with really, really large customers, working with Imperial Dade and like AMETEK, very complex B2B businesses. That's kind of where we're going to be, I think, disproportionately investing as well. There's also some things that we're doing in small business and some other areas. I mean I would just say, whenever there's change like we're going through, it creates opportunity for us to rethink certain things that maybe we wouldn't have done in the past or have been willing to do in the past. I'm very interested in anything that we can do that can broaden and deepen our relationship with customers so that they are a stickier customer for the company, not specifically for the BigCommerce platform product or the Feedonomics omnichannel product, but for the company itself. That gets into how we think about partner offerings, how do we think about the way that we're pursuing payments, how do we think about whether or not we have sales assist only versions of Feedonomics versus self-service. There's a whole lot of things that we're kind of evaluating as a part of this change to say where can we come up with ways to have more expansion opportunities with our existing customers, because we have been disproportionately reliant on new customer acquisition as a means of fueling revenue growth. That's very problematic over the course of the last couple of years when investment spending went down made the cost of acquiring a new customer go up, and we were not prepared with the motions or the product offering to really pivot more to expansion to drive revenue growth, and it's part of the reason why we struggled over the course of the last year or 2.

Got it. Right. Just on the margin point. So for next year, you're looking at a mid-single-digit revenue growth outlook and talk about some of the investment priorities. I guess just to tie it all together with the growth outlook, how do you think about that translating to your non-GAAP operating margin?

Yes. So that building on the end of the previous question, which I just realized I didn't answer, Chris. So if you -- the things that I just described that we're working on are ways that we can get better revenue growth and get top line leverage to flow down to profit. As I think about next year, I'm -- we're building internal plans around mid-single-digit revenue growth rate, which I think is very modest, right? I think that, that's a very doable number for us to get to. It's not a layup, but I think it's a number that we can get to. This year hasn't gotten the pipeline and the account growth that we wanted, and so I think that's a reasonable expectation going into next year. When we took our recent restructuring action, like I said, for every dollar we took out, $0.50 of it we reinvested, $0.50 we took out. And so I think that we can actually aim again next year for another mid-single-digit expansion in operating margins on a full year basis. So we said the same thing going into this year that we were aiming for kind of mid-single-digit expansion. Based on our latest guidance, we're on track for roughly 700 basis points, I think, of expansion on a whole year basis, we're aiming from mid-single digits again next year. Could we do better than that potentially? We'd need to overdeliver a little bit on the revenue growth side of things, but I think that it's very possible for us based on the recent actions that we've taken, if we continue the discipline that we've been showing over the course of the last few years, to continue to see that expansion even as we're reinvesting back on the top line.

All right. That's awesome. And I guess in the revenue cadence, just for the mid-single-digit revenue growth or planning scenario to think about what gives you the confidence or what makes you think there is upside to the level compared to your Q4 of '24 level, which you consider as more of a floor to the growth?

I would say it's one is overall sales capacity; and second, it's sales capacity. Like I said, I would like us to have more sales capacity today for the growth rates we're posting right now. We are going to be staffing to grow faster than the conservative outlook that I'm going to base our spending plan on, right, because I want us to have headroom. And if we are seeing good momentum, I'd like to add even more capacity as we get into the back half of next year, I want to see the proof points across the front half of next year. Specifically, I want to see the growth rate on ARR, taking ahead of the growth rate on revenue, which is more of a lagging indicator. We're seeing good results in deferred revenue. We're seeing good results in IPO. For us, those are really good indicators of bookings quality, but ARR is still the best indicator of just raw bookings in total. So I want to see that kind of ticking up as we head down that path.

All right. That's awesome. And then, I guess, in terms of the enterprise versus non-enterprise, how should we think about the need to stabilize the non-enterprise ARR to deliver the revenue growth you're looking?

I think this can look different and look better next year. So the background on this is that as we've been moving upmarket, we saw some contraction actually last year in, call it, the small business portion of the company. It stabilized this year the way that we wanted the two. I actually think that, that can stabilize and then even potentially grow modestly as I look at what we're doing next year. Feedonomics self-serve as an example, some of the partner offering changes that we're contemplating, those things work really well for our existing base of customers in upper end of small business and mid-market such that I think that there's a way that we can actually start to grow that business modestly in a way that I think it would be really, really good for overall company performance. Part of the reason why prioritize that a bit, not from us serving the existing base, but in terms of investing growth is if you looked at this a couple of years ago, the unit economics for that were not particularly strong relative to other parts of the business. We still had salespeople selling plans that were a few hundred dollars a month. Just doesn't pay out efficiently. The cost of acquisition was too high. On top of that, when we landed those accounts, we didn't have enough paths for expansion the way that some of our competitors that have more of a vertical integration play in small business have, where they can play the numbers game, acquire 100 accounts, turn out 70 but grow the 30 so much that the economics would work. We didn't really have that set up a couple of years ago, and we've been actually taking a lot of action over the last couple of years to fix that, whether it's taking pricing, getting a lot more efficient in the acquisition model. And we've also gotten a lot better at directing copy against mid-market that can halo over into the upper end of small business where those are the small business customers that are a good fit for us. Again, not digitally native start-ups and entrepreneurs, but small businesses with grown-up problems is the way I would think about it, right? So I think that part of the business can stabilize over the course of next year and even potentially start to grow modestly from there. That's the way we're approaching the business. And we can do that because a lot of the product investments that we are making are also applicable to small business customers as well. They're not separate products. They're more like feature differentiation as you go up in plan levels. So it gives me some confidence that we can get there. But I don't -- we don't need to see -- that needs to not become a leaky bucket is the way I would describe it. But it doesn't need to have some big dramatic turnaround and change in terms of growth rates for us to get to the type of growth indications that we've been talking about as kind of an early read on next year. If that improved substantially, I would be very excited about that. That would all kind of be cherry on top for us.

All right. That's awesome. And totally makes sense. And then I guess on the macro side, you mentioned that on the consumer side, it's been -- customers have been resilient this year. But I guess on the -- your customer on the business side, how would you characterize the health of your top of the funnel this year versus a broader market, basically think about the repute space, enabling e-commerce, and then maybe how does your visibility into your two pipeline compared to the last time of this year?

Visibility is the same as where it's been before. I would say where we've been particularly encouraged by improvements in pipe and the indicators are seeing is in B2B. And the sophisticated complex use cases within B2B, not just B2C companies that are starting to have wholesale channels, which is again, fine, there's nothing wrong with that. But I'm really encouraged by what I'm seeing on the B2B side. We haven't seen as much growth in pipeline on the B2C front as where we wanted to be by this point in the year. There's a lot of things that I see that are encouraging. But if that had been where we wanted it to be, we would have had more growth on an exit rate basis than where we've been. Overall, from a demand perspective, I think what I'm seeing on consumer spend seems pretty good. It's been pretty good. I've gotten some questions about this over the last couple of years where I've been accused of being more optimistic from a consumer sentiment point of view than other CFOs. I think I was just more pessimistic in how we built our assumptions such that what actually played out was in line or better with where we had built our plans, right? But I continue to seeing signs there that are encouraging. I think we need to see where the new administration takes things from a macro point of view, if we end up in a tariff war that's inflationary that we'll see. But I'm not an economist. I'm just a humble operator. We'll see. That's on the consumer side. On the business investment side of things, I expect it to stay tight. I mean I still think there are some good indications where if you've got a compelling reason to replatform, there's obviously demand that's happening. We're seeing some of it, not seeing as much of it as I think we should. But I think that there are indications there that are good. But if I just look at my own behavior and how are the projects that I'm greenlighting to spend money on within BigCommerce, I'm not approving much, right? I'm wanting to consolidate applications. We're in the midst of consolidating multiple sales team into one CRM. We just got everybody into one Marketo instance, just rolled out [ Realteo ] as well. We're trying to find ways to standardize and consolidate. There's a lot of things that I would like to take on, but I don't want to have the cash outlay even if you can figure out how it hits P&L and that type of stuff. So I don't think I'm alone in that, where I'm being very selectively deliberate in making investments where I think it makes sense for shareholders in the long-term interest of the business, but I'm not going crazy either. Like there's -- it takes a lot to convince me to go off and do purchases right now for our business, and I think I see a lot of that still amongst my peers at other companies.

Got it. I know we're kind of in the final minutes here, so I really want to just touch on two more things. First would be on the deeper integrations with the GSIs. How is that factored into the mid-single-digit growth? And then the scaling of the -- I think you talked about doubling the quota carrying headcount here. How should we be thinking about those two factors, timing there, and kind of what are those road signs that we should be looking for?

Yes. So on the GSI question first, we would like to move into more of a co-investment mode, deep relationships with GSIs, whereas I think in the past, we have had relationships with many, many GSIs, but it's like a referral-based commission model, not necessarily a co-investment, the way necessarily, I think, would be better. I think moving into more of that mode gives us the ability to also be more selective in the partners that are doing the implementations, which I think is better for customers at the end of the day. And also, I think that's an area where we're really going to be able to differentiate ourselves, because, again, if you think about it from Travis' view, he comes from Accenture, that's the world that he's from. We believe that GSIs can ultimately make more money by implementing BigCommerce than many of our competitors because the product has more customization and more -- it's more fully featured to be able to do unique things and unique designs and unique ways of growing the business that really lend itself to the value-added services of a lot of our partners. So I think -- John Huntington was brought on to lead that part of the business for us. Very excited about that. It has been an important part of our business. It still will be. I just would like to go deeper with big partners than quite so broad with many. I think that's the major change there. The second part of your question specifically was -- refresh my memory?

Just on the quota carrying.

Quota carrying, yes. We want to get to double quota-carrying capacity next year close to midyear as possible. If we could do it even a little faster, we will. I actually feel reasonably optimistic that we can because of the fact that we have so many internal folks that were able to move into a lot of the roles specifically assigned to existing accounts to grow those as account managers. We're still being quite conservative when we think about the ramp assumptions just like you would for any new seller. But in a lot of cases, these are not going to be new to the company. They're going to be new to the role, but not new to the company, which we think gives us some upside as we think about their ramp and ability to contribute faster.

Well, I think that puts us right at time here. Daniel, it was a pleasure to have you here, and see you next year.

Thanks for having me here. Appreciate it.