Commercial International Bank Egypt (CIB) S.A.E. (COMI) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, and good morning, everyone. This is Elena Sanchez. And on behalf of EFG Hermes, I would like to welcome you all to CIB's Third Quarter 2024 Earnings Call. We have with us from CIB, the following speakers: Hisham Ezz Al-Arab, CEO; Amr El-Ganainy, Deputy CEO; Islam Zekry, Group CFO; Omar El-Husseiny, Group Treasurer; Rashwan Hammady , CEO, Retail Banking and Financial Inclusion; Yasmine Hemeda, Head of Investor Relations; and Nelly El Zeneiny, Investor Relations Manager. I would like to hand over the call now to Yasmine Hemeda. Yasmine, please go ahead.

Good morning, and good afternoon, everyone. This is our customary disclosure statement. This call is intended for investors and analysts only. As such, if any media representative has gained access to this call, kindly hang up now. Certain information disclosed during this earnings call consists of forward-looking statements reflecting the current view of the bank with respect to future events and are subject to certain risks, uncertainties and assumptions. Many factors could cause the actual results, performance or achievements of the bank to be materially different from any other future results, performance or achievements that may be expressed or implied by such forward-looking statements, including worldwide economic trends, the economic and political climates of Egypt, the Middle East and changes in the business strategy, along with various other factors. Should one or more of these risks or uncertainties materialize or should underlying assumptions prove incorrect, actual results may materially vary from those described in such forward-looking statements. The bank undertakes no obligation to republish revised forward-looking statements to reflect changed events or circumstances. And that ends the disclaimer statement. I'll now hand it over to Mr. Hisham Ezz Al-Arab.

Thank you so much all for joining us today. I have to clear that I'm still the Non-Executive Chairman on paper, but I have been working with the team, Islam, Amr El-Ganainy, Omar and Rashwan and Omar. Just finishing some regulatory paper should all be done this week. I thought it's good to come back and meet investors, especially that Yasmine has been doing an outstanding job with the team in managing the Investor Relations. And now we're adding more flavors by having the executive management team involved on the -- either on the calls or the one-on-one meetings. What I want to say -- we cannot go through the details of the numbers and so on. But the most important thing is the buildup behind the numbers. And the critical part for us is to really get the teams to work together and leverage on each other strength rather than having some sort of an island or silos within the institution. That leverage as a teamwork between the different units, either in the support areas or the front line have resulted in a better performance either cost side or on the revenue side. Going forward, we are going to go through a clear business transformation process. And that could easily change the way we conduct business in a better way. My target personally is zero customer complaints and the highest customer satisfaction because at the end of the day, by having more clients, more happy clients is practically how this pays our salaries. From there, the entire transformation strategy is being built up, how to reach the point where we meet the international standards in -- and exceed the international standards in terms of customer satisfaction. And that will yield to all of us, all the stakeholders, staff, customers, shareholders as well. I will leave the floor to Yasmine and the team, and I'm happy to take any questions if you want.

Thank you, boss. Good morning and good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining our earnings call. Once again, we're very pleased to update you on yet another solid quarter. As we mentioned before, this performance is the result of several years of reading the market, setting and applying the appropriate strategy. Over the past few years, we focused on two extremely important aspects to take advantage of the environment. The first aspect is exerting huge efforts to increase the low-cost CASA, which now stands at 55% of the total deposit base. The second is maintaining excellent asset quality, coupled with the rising interest rate environment. This laid the foundation for the current and ongoing performance, especially in light of a relatively stable macroeconomic environment and our expectation that interest rates on sovereigns will remain elevated until year-end as the yields continue to reflect the twin deficits. As for the policy rates, we don't see them getting cut until inflation starts to come down. Consequently, during Q3, local currency deposits grew by EGP 18.6 billion or 4% over Q2, all of which were CASA. T-bill yields rose by an average of 2% during the third quarter, driven more by an increase in the 3 and 6 months yields at 3.8% and 3.2%, respectively, compared to 0.9% and 0.2% for the 9 and 12 months. As a result, local currency NIMs for Q3 recorded 12.9%, coming 363 basis points higher year-on-year. Local currency loans grew by 12%, sufficiently counterbalancing net foreign currency loan repayments, which came at 5%, noninterest income recorded EGP 5.8 billion, coming 9x higher year-on-year with trade service fees growing by 47% year-on-year. While expenses grew by 41% year-on-year, we posted a record operating income of EGP 71.5 billion, up 82%, giving us a positive job. Despite taking provisions of around EGP 1.69 billion, which is more than double the provisions accrued in the last quarter, thus representing the main reason behind the 5% quarter-on-quarter drop in bottom line. Asset quality remained very, very solid, with NPLs reporting 4.39% and the coverage ratio of 289%. It's worthy to mention that the coverage of the risky performing loans, i.e., loans risk rated from 2 to 7, remained very comfortable at 14%. And this was evidenced in CIB recording a high CAR of 29.1%, which more than accommodates the bank's growth and transformation plans moving forward, as mentioned by Mr. Ezz Al-Arab. And with this increase in CAR, we recorded a net profit of EGP 14.8 billion for the quarter and EGP 42.3 billion for the 9 months, up 89% year-on-year, resulting in an ROE of 49.4% further cementing CIB's strong standing in the market. And as previously mentioned, this positive trend across all financial indicators is expected to continue throughout the remainder of the year. On that note, I will open the floor Elena, for Q&A, for the management and for us, who're here for you. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] Thank you very much for the presentation. We will move now to the Q&A session. If you have a question. We have received a question on provisioning. I'll read it as I received, given that the bank is over provisioned why have provisions increased so much this quarter? Could you also provide some color on the increase in NPLs in Q3?

Well, this is Islam Zekry. Elena, Thank you. I'll take that question. So basically, I'm taking this as a positive sign. When you look at my local currency loan to deposit ratio in this quarter, it's reaching a historical amount of 51% and that's a historical number. And when you look at the quarterly performance, the acquisition on the local currency direct lending and trade finance activities, it's remarkable. We've seen this year a growth on the trade side by almost 56%, 57%. That's why this is a very positive healthy indicator for the growth in booking and trading activities for the bank for this quarter. When you recast or normalize for the bottom line, the quarterly bottom line and take the provisions aside and taking also the tax implications of the provisions that will show a bottom line growth, almost 2%, 3% quarter-over-quarter. But I suggest, when you look at the risk indicators in general, to look at them in terms of coverage, in terms of growth and in line of the direct and trade lending activities growth. When you look at the expected and unexpected losses coverage in CIB, it's almost 13%, 14%. This is the recorded ratio compared to 6.5% to the overall sector, banking sector in Egypt, which shows decent results in my view.

Thank you very much. There is another question on operating expenses. Can you comment on the increase in admin costs quarter-on-quarter?

This is basically also something you could relate to the growth. When you book loans on your balance sheet there is a stamp duty and there is a regulatory expense related. So it's driven by business and normal growth on the balance sheet.

There is another question that came through the chart. Can you give an update on potential changes to the ECL expected credit loss model? By how much can cost of risk decline going forward as a result of these changes? And what is the expected timing of implementation of these changes?

I'll take this one. For the ECL model, we're still in the negotiation phase with the CBE and the auditors. I think we are all in agreement as to the amount of excess provisions, but the point of contention here is how we're going to treat that from an accounting perspective. There are multiple scenarios that are being contemplated, but we have yet to sort of set on one of these scenarios. And the fact that we're the only Egyptian bank facing this problem is making the CBE taking their time in sort of deciding what we will do because it will set a precedent for the rest of the Egyptian banking sector. As it stands now, it doesn't seem like the new ECL model will come through in 2024. Most probably or hopefully, we are hoping that this will come through sometime during the first quarter of 2025. In the meantime, we -- our guidance that we've been giving for the full year 2024 still remains the same. The total provisioning charge, both on the direct and contingent remains between 6.5% to 7%. Moving beyond that with the new ECL model, definitely the cost of risk and the run rate for the impairment charges will be much less conservative.

And honestly, this is not also something to negotiate. There is a specific process according to the accounting standard and the applied GAAP's here in Egypt, and there is a specific process dictated by the Central Bank, and we are following that but in order to change it. It's a function in your inputs and your outlook view for the macroeconomic situation in Egypt and the region. So there is a specific path. There is a specific process we are following, and we are on that path as just highlighted.

Another question on provisions. CIB booked provisions of around EGP 2 billion for Eurobonds in full year 2023 and we expect the release of these provisions on upgrades of the ratings of the Egyptian sovereign by rating agencies.

Well, there is a development and enhancements in our fair value through OCI reserve, if you noticed in this quarter till year-to-date, we are having an amount of EGP 5 billion, EGP 6 billion in this quarter alone in light of the development, the amount of EGP 3.8 billion. When you look at my return on equity, factoring this amount is 50% when you normalize for it, it will go to 45%, so yes, there is an enhancement. There is a development received, and there is an impact on the profitability for sure, and it's part of our ECL calculation model and the staging model we are following.

Okay. Thanks for that, I'll read more questions that came through. What is a sustainable cost-to-income ratio for the bank?

Since a year -- more than 1.5 years, the bank is following and monitoring our cost to income, the reported one is 16%. The bank is highlighting and also discussing in our board, our core cost to income, which is at the range of 30%, 32% as we speak. And absolutely, given the transformational plan highlighted and already published a couple of months ago, we anticipate some developments over there to cement and support our development plan on the long run, either by enhancing the operational infrastructure, investing more in technology, and invest more on the future banking agenda, which is a critical part of our board discussions all the time.

Okay. Another question on the local currency loan-to-deposit ratio that is now at record highs. What do you attribute the increased loan demand too? And where are you seeing these loans coming from? sectors, I think.

Basically, there are two dominating sectors when it comes to corporate lending, basically industrial sector and service sector, and we are developing our market share over there. There is a share of wallet play strategy have been executed and processed and supervised by our executive management here. And I think we are on the right track, and that's reflected in our loan-to-deposit ratio, which has reached 51% and we have also to highlight that we start focusing on some other emerging segments like the SME lending. We changed our operating model in SME lending in general. There is quite focus over there. And I think working capital finance is basically a big part of our acquisition strategy when it comes to corporate lending. We've seen a decent growth on the trade line, which is on trade finance business, which is also a good catalyst for the growth on the credit direct lending activities within the bank.

What is the optimal NPL coverage ratio and also capital adequacy ratio if macro conditions normalize next year?

For the optimal CAR ratio that we would like to maintain. I mean, given the exceptional nature of CIB, the fact that we don't have a parent bank or a major shareholder to fall back on in case of need we always like to run a buffer above the minimum buffer that is required by the CBE. So I would say under normalized conditions, we typically would like to run a CAR of somewhere between 18% to 20%. Whereas in times of distress, you will find the CAR inching beyond the 25% given the vulnerabilities that we have in our capital base, and also how quickly these vulnerabilities can eat up from the cushion that we have. I'll have Islam on the...

No, given the expected unexpected loss coverage, I feel completely comfortable about the NPL ratios reported here. I'm completely fine with that. So no comment on that front.

Okay. Thanks for that. There is another related question on the capital adequacy ratio. Also saying that because of the improving macro situation and the high CAR, is there a scope for the bank to increase dividend payouts.

So the payout decision in general in a commercial bank is a function of multi-factors, in my view. So yes, the macro indicator is part of those factors we are looking at. The capital adequacy and the optimal levels we are running or we anticipate is a factor, the liquidity ratios we are on. And whenever the situation is changing, absolutely, the bank is looking at this as the dynamic -- as a dynamic -- our payout policy is extremely dynamic payout policy. So technically, we look at it given the capital adequacy ratio we are running right now and the outlook -- the macro outlook around the Egyptian economy in general.

Another question on credit growth, specifically on the local currency credit growth. How do you explain the strong appetite for lending despite the sharp interest rate hikes earlier this year? Or is it the loan growth driven largely by client acquisition?

Well, basically, when you look at the -- because when you run a balance sheet, you run in anticipation of the future-looking interest rate environment. And I think most of the research houses talking about possible cuts. So there's a new normality is just creating around the corner right now. So technically, we feel comfort and it's critically clear when you look at my risk appetite and the balancing act, we are running between growing our risk-weighted assets, and running the capital adequacy ratio, that will give you an idea about our risk appetite to grow and to grow our portfolio in a very profitable -- profit zones when it comes to credit lending or trade finance or even expanding in newly emerged business areas. But at the end of the day, we feel comfort, we'll keep growing. And even our targets for the coming year, I think because we are in the middle of a budget discussion right now, is ambitious enough to reflect that.

Okay, I'll keep on reading the questions that are coming through. Are there any signs of increasing delinquencies in real estate-related industries such as building materials and contractors?

When you look at sectorial staging reports in our footnotes, there is no pivotal signs over there in those specific segments.

Can you talk a bit about the FX interbank market volumes during Q3 and where we are today, any views on the volatility or lack of volatility of USD, EGP?

Sure. I will take that Yasmine. Definitely during the past period of time since the unification of the foreign exchange since March, we saw huge -- so the interbank market volume has been 10x last year, and that makes sense for the foreign exchange that we had since last year. Up till this moment, we're seeing more supply than the demand in the market. The market is more adapting to the new norm of the FX rate. So interbank volume to answer the question has been 10x last year. And we're seeing the average interbank daily hovering around $100 million to $150 million, that's the normal day. So it picks up to almost $1 billion to $1.5 billion at times when you see lots of credit trades coming to invest in Egypt.

A follow-up question on the strong credit growth in EGP and high interest rates. The question is, how do you explain that borrowing or strong credit growth is happening with interest rates that are 30% plus.

When you look at the cost structure, the financing cost structure of most of the -- our corporate clients, the service -- the debt service ratio or the debt service cost is not a huge amount of their cost structure. This is one. Second, on the demand side, there is a huge consumption demand on the sectors we are serving, especially in the industrial sector and the service sector. And when you get a deep dive in the subsectors we are serving over there, I think they are demand and consumption led, so we don't see a negative impact of these high interest rates given that most of the portfolio is working capital finance for the time being.

And if I might add something to what Islam said, I mean, we cater to the top 800 corporates operating across different economic sectors. Most of them are multinationals and the rest are the big local names, the ones that you see listed on the Egyptian Stock Exchange. So you all get to see and experience firsthand how strong their performances are, so I mean, we have been seeing very signs of resilience from their side. And like Islam said, it's all working capital facilities. Their utilization rates now are nearing the 65% and 70%. And we're expecting that to improve as we move along the year, which in tandem with the cuts that are supposed to start once inflation eases this should carry us through 2025 as well.

Another follow-up question on the dividend -- on the dividend payout ratio. Which factors are you looking for that will make you comfortable with a higher payout level?

So I mean, our dividend payout policy is worked out backwards. So basically, we see the level of growth that we are going to achieve in terms of risk-weighted assets, i.e., the loans. We set a certain level of core that we would like to maintain given the exceptional nature, like I mentioned before, of CIB and the fact that we always need to run a buffer above the buffer. Then we look at the profits, and we see how much we need to redeem to maintain that level of CAR and cater to that level of growth in the risk-weighted assets and the rest we divvy out. Historically speaking, our payout ratio ranged between the 5% and 20%. In times of distress, you'll see it more skewed towards the 5% and in normalized conditions in very strong or relatively stable macroeconomic environment, you'll see that inch up, up from the 5%. So depending on how things continue to develop on the macro scene and on the bank's level throughout the remainder of the year, this will dictate the dividend payout ratio for 2024.

Another question on profit target. Will management revise the net profit target for 2024 from the EGP 50 billion, EGP 54 billion given the strong performance in the 9 months?

So the guidance for the full year 2024 is for bottom line between EGP 55 billion and EGP 57 billion.

Another question on confirmation of the guidance you gave on cost of risk. EGP 6.5 billion to EGP 7 billion for the full year 2024. Just a confirmation of that number.

Yes, confirmed. It still stands EGP 6.5 billion to EGP 7 billion in total impairment charges, both direct and contingent.

All right. Questions on NIMs. Has group NIM stabilized Q-on-Q ? Sorry, let me just read the question again. Do you expect NIMs to stabilize for the rest of the year versus Q3? And can you remind us of local currency and foreign currency NIM guidance?

So I mean, our guidance for local currency versus foreign currency NIM still stands. So we're guiding for local currency NIM of 13% for 2024. While the foreign currency NIM by and large, remain where it is, so between the 3.5%, 3.8%. So the blended should sit comfortably between the 9.5%, 10% for the full year 2024. Elena, can you please remind me of the first part of the question, I'm sorry.

It's not very clear, but the way I understood the question is whether you expect NIMs to be stable for the remainder of the year versus Q3.

A continuation of the same trends that we've been seeing over the past 2 quarters to continue throughout the remainder of the year.

Okay. And also on NIMs, can you elaborate on how NIMs should evolve, sorry, in 2025?

So it's early to judge on the future interest rate environment, but what you could get from most of the research is that there are expected cuts for the coming year. And as you know, banks is running spread margins. So technically, when we expect cuts of 700 to 800 basis points we have a range of research houses talking about that. But at the end of the day, we are managing to keep and maintain our NIMs for the coming year. Absolutely, there will be an impact because of the duration gap, the time duration gap, but the bank is aspiring to manage the decent spread strategy for the coming year.

And just to add to that, whatever compression that may occur on the NIM side will be more than compensated for by the growth in the fees and commissions that are usually associated with loan growth and thus feeding very positively into the ROEs.

Another comment on the resilience of the balance sheet. That's why we bought the target of increasing the weight of CASA, we've reached 55%, 56% as we speak, and we're increasing that because this is giving us a caution against the any developments on the interest rate environments on the decline.

All right. Thank you very much. We don't have any additional questions. Perhaps we could pause for a minute, a couple of minutes to see if we receive more questions. We just received another follow-up question on NPL coverage and capital adequacy ratio. Do you think that a higher-than-usual NPL coverage and a higher-than-usual capital adequacy ratio impose a cap on stock price performance in 2024.

We don't expect any changes when it comes to CAR liquidity ratios or even the NPL ratio until the end of the year, and I'm confirming that.

I think the stock performance is undermined by the macro more than anything else. And like we said, we are working on a new ECL model that is less conservative. So this will work the provision side. And the CAR, given the uncertainty that still looms we are going to close the year with a CAR of around 30%. And as we -- as the situation continues to unfold and the macro scene continues to clear throughout 2025, we'll see what will happen on the CAR side. But in terms of the stock performance, I don't think it's undermined by these factors as much as it is undermined by the macro and the lack of interest.

Thank you, Yasmine. There is a question asking for confirmation of the daily interbank liquidity in the FX market.

Yes, this is confirmed. So on an average daily basis, you would see the normal interbank market hovering between $100 million to $200 million. At times when we saw huge inflows coming in from the carry trade side, it reached $1.5 billion daily or even when we saw some outflows. So back in August, we saw some outflow, back in September, we saw an outflow and reached that number. So the credit rate right now hovering between around $32 billion, $33 billion. So those where you will see a huge spike into interbank market volume.

Okay. Thank you very much. A question on the loan book. You said that the majority of your loan portfolio is working capital financing. Do you see the mix changing if there is additional lending demand coming through with lower interest rates?

I think for the mix to change and for more CapEx demand or actually CapEx demand to come through or the conversation even on CapEx to start, you need to see a few things materializing on the ground first. The first of which is the cuts in interest rates. Second and more importantly, you need the individuals and the corporate to sort of fully adjust to the new cost structure of things, and you need to see that reflecting on higher utilization rates. Like I mentioned earlier, on average utilization rates among our loan portfolio is between EGP 65 million to EGP 70 million. For CapEx or the conversation on CapEx to start, you need to see that level crossing the 90% mark. And you need to see all of these factors materializing first before we see that translating into CapEx demand. So with how everything is unfolding and like Islam mentioned before that most of the economists are expecting cuts in interest rates starting the first quarter of 2025. If all factors remain the same and they continue pushing, cutting rates and the consumption levels sort of improved, and you see that reflecting positively on higher utilization rates, maybe we should start seeing the beginning of the first wave of CapEx in it's very primitive form to come through towards the very tail end of 2025, if not beginning 2026, but not before then.

Question on provisions, is the significant increase in loan loss provisions of Q3 related to foreign currency loans?

Well, actually, most of the demand -- actually 90% of the demand coming from the local currency loans in Q3.

I think the question was about the provisioning cost if it's linked to foreign currency loans, or...

The provisions in Q3 is the marginal effect of the growth in lending activities and trade activities in Q3, which is coming the majority in local currency.

A question on the decline in the foreign currency portfolio -- loan portfolio. Is it a reflection of risk appetite of the bank? Or is it due to low credit demand in the market?

Well, actually, it was the national repayments within our portfolio in some specific segments.

Any initial guidance for loan growth, deposit growth and net income for 2025?

I think it's too early because we didn't discuss our budget yet with our boards that will take place in December, but we expect very ambitious targets for the coming year.

Especially with the transformation.

Especially with the enhancements we do on the capacity -- increasing the capacity of the bank as a service entity to absorb more valuable segments, more customers to serve within the coming 2, 3 years. That's basically the main targets of our transformational program going forward.

All right. No further questions at the moment. So just a small pause to see if there are any additional questions. Question on provisioning, is the required ECL of new loans higher than the of previous loans, i.e., do you consider new loans to be more risky than the ones you had before?

No, absolutely. We are following the IFRS 9. We don't differentiate, it is an expected credit cost calculation by accounting standards, depends on the future looking and the economic outlook of the customer and the specific rates of the credit rationale of the client itself. So no, the answer is no.

What are the main features of the transformation program?

The what?

Transformation. So the transformational program is basically depends on -- or targeting three main strategic objectives enhancing the capacity of the bank to serve more additional customers at more cost-effective manners and in a way that's profit inducing, that's one target. The second target is enhancing the capacity for the bank to be a bank on demand. And the third target basically is targeting our key service indicators across all segments, and repositioning CIB as a universal bank serving a wide range of customers from a very small, young individuals to very sophisticated financial institutions and will announce in our coming investor call, we'll invite you to the kitchen to show you exactly what we cook over there. And the transformational program will be part of our plan and that will be announced soon. And I promise by the coming earnings call, it will be more focusing on our value drivers, what we expect, what we aspire to have out of that transformational program as a key value driver for future banking in our view.

Has the board given Hisham any difference in mandate versus Hussein? Or can we assume continuity?

Well, put it that way, it's the mandate is not only for me. I have to explain one thing. When the Board decided to do change, the change was not because of anything rather than there is a new era, and that requires different skill sets. And the -- I have to admit that at the beginning when we started to search for a CEO who can do transformation we came across Mr. Tony that we mentioned his name in our press release. And we came to the point, we sat with Tony would he practically focus on the transformation or the day to day. The day to day, there are two parts there, the admin work and there is the business as usual. And if I start to get Tony engaged on that, that means that 50% of Tony's time will go into running the business. Already the business is running very well. Amr is doing a fantastic job here and Rashwan and Amr on the front line. On the admin side, Islam is doing an excellent job there. And in fact, it's not a secret really because when we decided to have two executives to help Tony at that time, it was Amr and the 3 other managers they have decided that Islam is the proper person that should help Tony. And this is how we came -- how we reached the structure. Then we remained with the question of should we leave the time for Tony to do the transformation or to be involved on the day-to-day. And after discussions, he was happy to focus on the transformation, just do it, finish it as soon as possible. This is the key attraction for the job at CIB. Then we left who's going to be the CEO. There was a discussion there, do you mind to wear a parachute and supervise that team and that process, said fine. I mean for me, it's something I know very well, there is nothing new because practically, I would say that business as usual is running on an autopilot. I need to help Islam and Tony on the transformation. That may take some tough decisions, someone has to take, need to take certain messages to the staff about the changes because really one of the things we are looking at, we are looking at the number of people at the back end, on the front end, and the ratio there. The automation and using AI and robotics is not something new. We have used that even in compliance, we are using that in different areas of the bank. So can we spread that out in end-to-end in many of the processes that we have on the bank and then we're going to save head count that we can recycle to the front end, that's a decision that need to be -- you need to manage people. You need someone that people trust for a long time that the change and the move they're going to do in their career is very good for them and for the bank as well. And they're going to make better money and more money moving from repetitive work of signing people into more of customer-facing jobs. It was very complicated. The structure is different from just a bank having a COO. The structure is having a team that make face lifting to the situation to meet the international standards, and meanwhile, catch up with the world. I mean we could have remained with a COO and find business as usual, but this is not our ambition. Our ambition is to take this bank in a different place, change our even narratives in conducting the business, and all of that will come at a later stage when we finish our 5 years plan. And the other part was very important that we have, yes, myself and Amr are helping the bank and everything. But we have three potential candidates that one of them could be the next CEO of the bank after 3 years, I'm very keen to have the next CEO from inside CIB. The three of them are excellent, outstanding, doing good job. But some grooming during a process of that transformation will show the real metal of the people and then the Board can select one of them. And by the way, I hope that I can put five names, not three names to the Board in 2 years' time to select the next CEO. The door is still open for other potential candidates, that could join that team for the future. Really, the job I'm doing is not the day-to-day business more than the strategic and preparing the bank for the future. And I would like to look at the CIB 10 years from now, where are we going to be? Where do we stand on the ground within the continent and within Egypt or within the surrounding countries. So all of that will require a serious change in the way of conducting business that meets the -- and I would say people are afraid from fintechs and technology, that's an opportunity. That's an opportunity really to have a customer reach. So the whole thing here is not the traditional CIB you know in conducting business, that will carry on definitely. But there is an extra mile there. We can take -- and we'll start to count the numbers based on acquisition. It's not a -- I was talking to Islam yesterday that maybe on the next report of the financials, we'll start to declare how many new customers on certain segments we added, either on the card business and personal loans, payroll, as individuals, wealth customers, not only a bulk number of total deposits or total consumer credit. Same thing with the consumer with the business banking, how many new customers in the bank, which sector we are focusing, what's our market share in certain sectors. This is how you build up future earnings and the same thing with the corporates. Really the way we're going to present numbers, it's not just a P&L or just loans or deposits. That's the old school that will be -- those numbers, yes, are very critical and important, but as well what are -- what is behind those numbers to reach those conclusions. So that gives you a very good idea how in 5 years' time, the bank will perform, not only this year and based on the current picture. I hope that explains you, the mandate is much more complicated than normal job.

Thank you very much for that. Just a final question I can see here. On a sequential basis, your NIM fell versus in Q3 versus Q2, 2024. Can you explain the drivers?

Well, the local currency developed 200, 300 basis points. I think what we are discussing here is basically the foreign currency NIM, which is a natural move too because we acquired most of our deposits at the third quarter from time deposits. which placed to match the duration in placing. So that was one thing. And that also -- because the NIM is a function in NII in earning assets mathematically. So our earning assets developed in terms of valuation in relation to the development we have seen in our fair value through OCI investments. So this is basically the two dynamics governing the mathematics behind that foreign currency NIM.

All right. I don't see any additional questions on the queue. Therefore, we can conclude the call for today. I would like to thank the management team of CIB for the presentation and all the responses provided today. And also thank you to all the attendees for joining the call, and I'll hand it over to you, Yasmine for any closing remarks.

Thank you very much, Elena. Thank you, everyone, for dialing in. We're always here. If you have any follow-up questions or if you need any further clarifications, please send us an e-mail or call us, we are very accessible at any point in time. Thank you very much, and thank you, Elena, for arranging the call.

Thank you.