Control Print Limited (522295) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Q4 FY '21 Earnings conference call hosted by Asian Market Securities Private Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Karan Bhatelia from Asian Market Securities. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you, Mallika. Hi, all. Good afternoon, and welcome to the Control Print Limited 4Q FY '21 Earnings conference call, hosted by Asian Market Securities Private Limited. From the management side, we have with us Mr. Shiva Kabra, Joint Managing Director; and Mr. Rahul Khettry, CFO. I now hand the conference to Rahul Khettry for his opening remarks, and then we will open the floor for the question and answer. Over to you, Rahul. Thank you.

Thank you, Karan. Welcome, everyone, to the fourth quarter FY '21 earnings conference call of Control Print. We appreciate your taking out time from your busy schedule to attend the call. Hope you and your loved ones are safe and healthy. Mr. Shiva Kabra, Joint Managing Director, joins me on this call. Let us start with the brief on Control Print, followed by specific analysis of the financials of the current quarter and end with the Q&A session. The detailed presentation has already been put up on our website as well as the investor presentation notification on the exchanges for this call. For those who are probably reviewing the company for the first time, Control Print is in the niche coding and marking segment, which is an oligopolistic market with 4 major players, 3 of whom are MNCs, and Control Print is only Make-in-India manufacturer. This gives us an advantage to sell our products locally and compete strongly with the other multinational players. We are the only integrated player with capability to manufacture both printers as well as consumables in India, giving us an advantage to share the benefit with our customers. This also gives confidence to customers for long-term partnership with Control Print. We have our manufacturing facilities in Nalagarh, in the state of Himachal pradesh, for the manufacturing of printers and in Guwahati, in the state of Assam, for the manufacturing of consumables. Both the manufacturing locations are state-of-the-art facility to produce good quality products. All our consumables are manufactured in Guwahati plant. And in addition to this, we have also started manufacturing some printers in that location. We have a strong sales and service team of 350-plus engineers across our 11 branches, which gives us the advantage to service our customers efficiently and timely since the after-sales service is very critical to ensure that the production lines of our customers continue to function continuously, thereby maintaining customer satisfaction. The 11 branches across office -- the 11 branch offices across North, south, East, West and Central India, gives us an advantage to be in the direct contract with all our customers in a timely manner since our products are critical to their production process. Post-sales of printers, there is a continuous demand for consumables over the life of the printer, which typically lasts for 5 to 7 years, depending on the operating conditions. We have our complete attention over our customers' requirements to ensure the production is never affected and service requests are attended immediately, thereby gaining our customer confidence. We have an end-to-end SAP ERP system set up, which ensures maximum transparency in accounting, sales and after-sales service as well as total control from raw material planning and ordering to receivables, collection and is integrated with the CRM system, which gives the confidence to the team, the customers as well as our auditors and investors. We have a widespread customer base catering to multiple industries like pipes and cables, metals, automotive, food and beverages, FMCG, pharma, et cetera. And we continuously endeavor to customize our products to reach out to other industries to increase our installed base. We have the entire range of products in our portfolio to meet the coding and marketing requirement of the industry, the details elaborated in our company presentation. As of today, the company has an installed base of 13,000-plus printers across industries, which enables the sale of consumables across the life cycle of the printer. We are very confident that we have the best-in-class products to meet the requirements of most of the substrates, which gives an additional advantage to the customer to do business with Control Print. With a strong foundation and 5 pillars that is man, machine, material, technology and finance, well-established to augment our business plan, we are continuously striving for data hikes. Let me give a brief analysis of the financials of Q4 FY 2021. The manufacturing activities in the last quarter of financial year 2021 were on a high, and most of the industries were pushing the productions to make up the lost time due to the impact of COVID. There was strong traction witnessed both for consumables as well as printers as the companies were increasing productions as well as capacities. These are extraordinary situations that the strength of the company is tested, and we can assure you that Control Print is geared up for any challenge. We are financially stable and robust and have exceeded our revenue targets for the quarter. This stability of Control Print was also reformed by credit rating agency CRISIL with an A rating after considering the short and medium-term impact of the COVID pandemic. Our investors can maintain their belief on the company's management for an optimistic future. This quarter's performance delivered all-round growth in volume, revenue, margins and net profit. We had the highest quarterly sales crossing INR 60 crores, with year-on-year growth in revenue of 32.2%. Sequentially, the growth in revenue was 11.8%. Revenue growth was driven by good growth in printers and consumables. We also recorded the highest printer sales in any quarter in last 5 years, which will strengthen our installed base. Revenue for the full year was also the highest and crossed the INR 2 billion mark. This was in spite of loss of 60 days during the first half of the year due to lockdown. Profit before exceptional items increased 105% year-on-year and also increased 38% sequentially. The profit before exceptional items for the year was similar to the previous year, mostly due to high cost of consumption and higher depreciation. PBT for the full year was up 6.5%, and tax for the full year was up 10%. Healthy margins with profit before exceptional items at 20.8% and EBITDA at 24.9% with scope of improvement due to better product mix and higher revenues triggering economies of scale. We should continue to maintain EBITDA margins north of 24% on a long-term sustainable basis. Let us brief you on the performance -- let me brief on the performance of various divisions, products and business segments. Printers had a year-on-year volume growth of 69% and consumables, 22%. The positive demand in spite of the challenging environment is a strong signal for an increase in momentum of industrial production. The increased installed base will drive the business in the coming quarters. The company is now a market leader in the MBS sector. The company is continuing its dominance in the pipe industry by receiving a breakthrough order from a competitor account. The flagship division, CIG, witnessed traction with year-on-year growth of 22% as the production of the customers was increasing. The growth was mainly due to increased production of some of the industries where we have a stronghold like pipes, cables, steel, food, FMCG, beverages. And it was also encouraging to see growth in some of the upcoming sectors like dairy, pharma, paints and wood. New product launches of TIJ, TTO, High Rise, are showing good traction and with some good installation in the past few months, all 3 divisions have recorded the highest quarterly revenue, and we are confident they will continue to add value to the company's business plan. We have dedicated managers and team to drive these verticals with focus on dairy, beverages, bakery, frozen food, ready-to-eat, pharma packaging, plywood, lubricants, packing, coding. These new products had a bull run for the quarter as well as the full year, and continued to grow during this challenging year, which builds confidence on the potential of these products in the coming years. Laser Printer business is growing steadily as product technology is being improved and the team has been changed. This has yielded good dividends with positive response from the customers, and new opportunities expected in the coming years. The facemask production has started, and the company has declared commercial production with effect from July 24, 2020. This will contribute to the company's revenue, and now with the second wave of COVID, has created additional demand for the mask. The company has strong cash flow, and this has helped us reward the shareholders with a final dividend of INR 4.50 per share, thereby taking the total dividend to INR 8.5 per share for the financial year 2021. Control Print retained its position in the list of top 1,000 companies on the stock exchange by market share on the National Stock Exchange. With COVID-19 -- while COVID-19 has impacted the economy as a whole, the worst is behind us. And with return to normalcy over the next few months, we hope the similar trend of growth trajectory. Fundamentally, the company remains strong, and we are focused on our plans and strategies as we are confident of the growth potential to deliver positive results. The floor is now open for questions.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Deepan Sankara Narayanan from Trustline PMS.

Congratulations for the good set of numbers. First of all, I wanted to understand what is the contribution of printer, consumables and others during Q4 and FY '21?

So during Q4, printers were about 22% to 23%, consumables were in the range of 50% to 51%; sales and service was around 22%, 23%; and the balance was the mask division, less than 5%. And for the full year 2021, printers was in -- again, in the range of 20%, 21%; consumables around 52%, 53%; sales and service around 23%, 24%; and masks, again, less than 5%.

Okay. Okay. And also, just want to check with you that we have been adding around 1,000 printers to our installed base every year for the past 3 years. But printers sold in the range of 2,000 to 2,500 every year. So are we expecting this printer churns to fall down in any time in the future, considering now we are present across even new age printers?

We expect the printer to continue at this level, Deep. We don't have any indication that this should slow down. But you never know in these changing times, how COVID will play out. As of now, we are quite bullish to be in this range.

Okay. So the 1,000, 1,500 printer churn ratio will continue?

No, for the year, we've done about 2,500-plus centers. It's not 1,000. About 2,700-plus printers we did in 2021.

Yes, correct. So my question is like, we have been adding print -- drilling printers in the range of 2,000, 2,500. But printer addition to installed base is around 1,000 only for the past 3 years. So that's why the churn ratio is around 1,000 to 1,500 printers every year. So are we expecting this churn to continue?

Installed base is also increasing by that. We can discount this by a few hundred printers. But addition will be in the range of about 2,000 printers for at least for the last couple of years because some of the printers are under buyback and other things, so around 2,700 -- as of now, we will be having about 13,000 to 13,500 printers, which are active in the market.

Okay. Okay. And what is the coding and marking industry market size currently? And are we -- have we increased our market share?

So I'll ask Mr. Shiva to answer the size of the market?

Yes. So 4 of our dominant markets, which is getting us about INR 1,100 crores totally, approx, because we normally [indiscernible], so we project their figures. They are about INR 1,100-odd something, out of which Domino's are still the biggest player, About INR 1,140 crores or INR 1,150 crores. And since all the smaller players -- I think the formal be 75% of the market, maybe 80%. So you can say that including all the small players, the market is in the region of INR 1,500 crores, and INR 1,150 crores would be the 4 of us, and that would be depending on what the exact numbers are. We will only find that...

Okay. Okay. So more or less, you will be in the similar level of market, sir, as last year?

I think we've gained a little bit. But of course, definitely, I think this year we've gained a little bit. I'm not sure because, with the COVID, it's actually make out what the competitors have done. And they also work from a January to December calendar. So that works in a different way. So I don't think we...

Well, as per our last information, we have [indiscernible] a bit, and we should be closer to 19% to 20% now, which earlier was around 17% to 18%. So we think we've gained a couple of...

Overall, our journey affected this year because of coronavirus, I mean last year for sure. What the pace of market growth is usually about 10%, 12% a year, it was definitely quite muted last year, I think. It was getting back to normal, but now we got a second wave of coronavirus.

The next question is from the line of Siddhant Shah from KBS.

Congratulations on the continued momentum you guys have seen in the business despite 60 days lost. Just wanted to understand a bit on market share. You seem to have won a few contracts of late. Can you throw some light on what has enabled this specifically? And what is our sort of value proposition when we go into sales pitches?

So yes, we have gained some competitor accounts we mentioned in the previous presentation as well as this one. It's mostly on the new printers that we've launched, the TIJ, the TTO and High Rise, which is what we had also informing everybody for the last couple of years that these printers have a good acceptance with our customers. And it's a matter of time when we will be able to get good breakthroughs. And with strong references, now we are finding that these printers are actually being installed at the customer places, and we are able to break in through certain FMCG -- large FMCG companies as well as we mentioned that in MDF, we believe that we are the market leaders now. There are some good installations that happened in the last few quarters of this thing. And even in pipes, we've always been dominating that segment. A new customer account has been contracted in the last time -- last quarter. So these are giving us. I think now the pitch that you're mentioning is the strong references, and the product quality of Control Print is what is giving us the advantage here. Generally, we go in with that the customer place. And once they are satisfied with the quality of the performance and the pricing, of course, it's when we're able to break through the account.

And more broadly speaking, I think before we were -- we had 2 big product ranges, one was a continuous inkjet printer, which is still up, the heart of our business, you can say, still the heart, and it will remain so for the next few years. And the second was a large character printers, which we especially sold and dominated a lot in the cement or as you like 90% plus of that business was the cement industry. So that's really top battle for us. But what's happened is because the other products have sort of come on stream, that's helping us capture customers because depending on the application, different technologies are preferable. So -- because we didn't really -- to be honest, we started this process about 5 to 6 years ago. We've had issues in terms of getting to the right cost point, but especially I will say, like, in terms of features, in terms of quality issues. And we have to work on it continuously and then train our own people, especially when you go to 1, 2 model changes and like everyone goes a bit slow because nobody wants to disturb an existing customer, something, and he's not happy with the new product, the new printer, there's a chance you'll lose your business for the existing -- your existing business also, if you understand what I mean. So I think now that it's -- things are running quite smoothly, I think in the last 2.5, 3 years, now we are beginning to see the effects of it. Of course, it's all muted because of the market situation. So we have not been able to translate that into the type of number that we would want to translate it into because of the market situation. But the acceptance is there. We've gotten in -- we not -- because customers also maybe not running at 100% capacity or significantly less, maybe, maybe that's why we're not getting full business as what we expected.

Got it. No, that's actually really helpful. So where are you guys seeing really the incremental growth? From which sectors are we seeing incremental growth from going forward, say, for the next 2 years?

Yes. Actually, I don't know how much -- whether this is your first call or how many of you guys are there. But basically, what we do is we divide the business into 2 parts, it's called industrial and one is packaging. So packaging would cover food. It is industry by a long way in this whole business. So food is the biggest, and food includes dairy, bakery, packaged foods, [Foreign Language]. So all this is in foods, the Maggie noodles and whatnot. In the beverage, it'll be Coke, Pepsi, bottled water, XYZ, juices. And then there's pharmaceutical, obviously. And then there is personal care items and also home care, so there will be detergent, soaps, shampoos, face cream and God knows whatnot, face creams and all that. So that is in India, 70% of the market or something is packaging -- 60% to 70% of the market; about 30% to 40% of the market is industrial. Industrial would be cement, steel, cable and wire, pipes, wood, all sort of automotive components, chemicals and God knows whatnot, petrochemicals. So what -- the thing is -- so we've been traditionally a bit weak in the packaging segment. And we have a bit of a reverse ratio as compared to our competitors. So they have about 70% of the business from packaging, 30% from industrial, and we are about almost the reverse. So we've been refocusing more aggressively on the packaging segment in the last 1.5 years or so. I mean, anyways, because of COVID, it's definitely cost us a lot because the industrial segment is definitely growing right now slower than the organized packaging segment. So I think a little bit of the growth that's happening is that we're getting some more traction in the non-industrial market, in the packaging market overall. And of course, we have been developing -- it's not like left our existing base. Because of -- it's also doing okay. It was doing okay, in fact, for part the year. But it's -- these are sectors that when the economies do well, I think they grow a bit faster than the economy. And when the economy is not doing well, it's a recession, sort of crash a little bit more. So you used to buy milk every day and you used to buy to your Britannia biscuits or Parle-G, if you get right me.

No, that helps. That helps a lot. And just actually one more question from my end. I just wanted to understand inventory days on a cost of goods basis, sort of, over 300 days. Could you walk us through why such large inventories are required? And sort of can we see this number coming down over time?

So yes, we have kept the control on the inventory. It was slightly higher earlier. But if you will calculate it based on the sales, then it has come down by about 50 days. I think now it's in the range of about 110, 120 days. It looks little higher when you do it on cost of consumption side, mainly prefer to be it on sale. And -- but it has, over the last 3 years, come down by about, I think, 30, 40 days. And we believe that there is still scope, maybe another 20, 25 days for it to come down. But our business is such that we do need to keep a higher inventory because of the number of SKUs that are used in our printer. Basically, it's an assembly operation. So you need to buy all the different types of parts. And even if there's a shortage in a couple of parts, the printer operation stops. Having said that, there are certain parts which are electronic parts and the MOQ, that is a minimum order quantity for these parts is relatively high because we have to pace them at a larger quantity than we produce on a basis because our suppliers also need that quantity to reduce the wastage. So certain electronic parts do have a higher MOQ. And the third reason is that there are multiple printers which are in the field, for which we have to keep a large inventory of spare parts because as we mentioned that service is a very important aspect of our business. And that is also required for certain printers, which probably we are not manufacturing even today. So it's like the automobile, like the truck is running in the market, the companies do have to maintain the inventory for the spare parts. So that is something, which is part of our business. We are conscious on the inventory level and continuously working to reduce this. But if you will notice the trend, it has been downward for the last few years.

Yes. So I agree with Rahul. Then if you have this many products, you need this much inventory. If your sales increased, the inventory increased marginally. So if we add a new product group, there'll be a certain cost of inventory because of the MOQs involved in the -- and right now, we're having a lot of issues also because of -- there's some shortage especially of parts and the lead times have reall increased. So I know you don't see the situation changing at least in the current 12 to 15 months, to be honest. We have to make sure we have material because if we run out it, ours is an online business, and it will be disaster.

You'll also notice that from December to March, the inventory is down by about INR 6 crores in this quarter itself. So I hope this will further come down in the next year.

The next question is from the line of Namit Mehta from Kantilal Chotalal.

Congratulations on a great quarter, Rahul and Shiva. Just a couple of questions from my side. First, if you can tell us a little bit more about the distribution strategy. I know that competitors distribute by our system integrators than other distributors. But you guys obviously go direct to the client. So if you can talk us through why and how that really works?

No. we all sell direct as a majority of our sales. The vast majority of our sales are direct. What our competitors and us also do is there are people, like I said before, is that we have -- we're selling the printers, which is a part of your production line. Obviously, it's not the main part. It's a minor part of your production line. So a lot of customers actually, what they do is when -- they buy it from the machinery supply from the packaging equipment manufacturer. For example, if I'm making a biscuit manufacturing line, then what Britannia will do is they'll tell that guy that you integrate the printer and give it to me. And in that case, we don't sell directly to the end customer. The customer buys a machine from us, integrates it on post packaging line and then sends it to the final customer. So it's a similar sales model for all of us. There's no variations out there.

Understood. No, that's helpful. And then as we -- if I have to...

Even in those cases, I just want to emphasize. Most of the time, especially the large customers, they already have some existing machines and stock of some company. So what they also specify the OEMs is that I already want this thing because I'm using like 6 lines of this and if I'm buying 2 more lines, if they're not unhappy, they sort of -- they tend to normally specify that I want Control Print again or I want [indiscernible] again. So it's something like that.

Namit, as a strategy, we prefer to be in direct touch with our customers because that helps us to understand their requirements. And also the disadvantage of going with the distributors, I guess, you have to do that if you have no other choice, is that you -- tomorrow, you might just stop selling your printers and go to some other company, and then you are in a kind of a turmoil with the customer and how to support them and to service as said. So it's always -- I mean, at least, in India, we have a strong role with our customers and through our branch offices and that strategy, we're quite comfortable with this.

Got it. And then just a couple of follow-ups on that. One, how do we think about the strength of our distribution network in that sense vis-à-vis your competitors? And also, as we scale out the business, when we become, say, INR 400 crore, INR 500 crore business, how do you think about our current distribution structure evolving with the business? Is there a lot of change that's required to scale out the business? Or do you think the model is working and will just continue okay?

Yes. So the current model will scale up well, and we've already incurred a lot of expenses in the past few years to ensure that we can grow, maybe not all the way to INR 500 crores, but a certain size, I'd say, like maybe to the INR 300 crores -- somewhere between INR 300 crores and INR 400 crores without really adding a huge amount of overheads and expenses. So somewhere may be, definitely if we hit INR 300 crores, INR 350 crores, we might have to add another set of people and a little bit more debottlenecking it and go hard. There's like nothing you should do, but not like till that level. So this is the accepted sales model for this business worldwide globally. So if we do a distributor model, I think the main thing is that it's a very service and fast and oriented business. So if for any reason the customer is not satisfied with the performance of the printer, the service is the most key aspect in our particular business. So it's -- the sales can get you in any company once. But if the customer is not happy with us, with the logistics, the service, the every single aspect, if you're not happy overall, then you're not going to get a repeat business from them. So yes -- so that's sort of the situation out there. So it's about a total satisfaction -- overall satisfaction, what I would say. So I don't see anything major changing in terms of these models. Yes, that's it right now.

That's very helpful. And if you can also just tell us a little bit about the typical customer for you as well, maybe what proportion roughly of your business is to large clients in the sense of INR 100 crore turnover plus and so on? Or what is the typical order size that you get? Is it one in...

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Jayesh Gandhi from Harshad Gandhi securities.

Congratulations on good set of numbers, sir. Sir, my question is, the earlier caller asked you about the market share and market size. I think you said the market size for printers is like INR 1,500-odd crores.

Yes, no. The overall market size is about INR 1,500 crores.

Yes, overall market size and you...

And the 4 of us is about INR 1,100 crores to INR 1,150 crores, closer to INR 1,150 crores.

Yes. and you guys are enjoying closer to, what, 18% to 19%, you said?

Yes. Yes. Around that. We think we will be inching towards 19%, 20%.

Yes, about 18%, 18.5% is what I'd say.

We seem to be...

You calculated from INR 1,150 crores or INR 1,500 crores because...

I took from INR 1,100 crores, so that's the organized segment. So we don't really consider -- I mean, yes, okay. Then if you take INR 1,500 crores, those are all the smaller players, the resellers, the pirates. So those are not really our target customers, frankly speaking. But it's part of the market. So in that way, you're correct. So...

Okay. And sir, can you just give me what are the receivable days we had last quarter?

So now we are down to about 72 days. We were close to about 78 -- in the range of 78 to 80 days for the last few quarters. This quarter, the sales has been pretty high. We are down to about 72 days.

And endeavor would be to be at what, closer to this levels or much, much lower?

I think if the sales are higher, we can be in this range. But I think realistically 75, 80 days is where we are comfortable. It can be a few days plus/minus.

Okay. And one last question is, we are currently enjoying a lower tax rate of closer to like 16%, 17%. From which year do you think that we'll be reversing here?

So to be honest, right now, up to 2025, we have the tax break for our Guwahati facility. Thereafter, there is a 15-year period for carry forward of NAT. So the max can be carried forward until 2040. And we believe that we will get this advantage at least for a few more years after 2027. So maybe up to '30, '32, the NAT should continue, and it depends on how our sales goes. But my personal opinion would be that up to 2030, '32, we will be able to -- at least the cash flows will not get affected. So even if we have to charge a higher tax in our books, we will be utilizing the NAT credit to set off the cash flows.

And 1 last question, if I can ask. Sir, do you -- do we have a dividend policy? Or it is just last year that we have given it -- I mean we have given 48%...

No. If you see the trend for the last 6 years, we've been giving continuous dividend interim as well as final, and the management is quite comfortable considering the cash flows. We, to be honest, are in discussion at the Board level to release a dividend policy, which hopefully will be done so.

The next question is from the line of V.P. Rajesh from Banyan Capital.

I'm actually new to the company, so some -- just a few basic questions. When you're talking about 3 other competitors, can you share the market size of the largest competitors in this space?

So basically, Domino, I mean, even if you see the presentation on our website, you'll get the details. But Domino is the largest player in India, and they are around close to INR 300 crores.

Yes, they're INR 345 crores.

Okay. All right. And my second question is that when you talk about this growth of -- from INR 200 crores to INR 350 crores. What is the time period you're thinking about?

So we would believe that in 2 to 3 years, this is achievable. Definitely in 3 years, it's quite possible.

Okay. And are the companies also manufacturing them in India, except for larger...

Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Rajesh. Your voice is breaking, sir? [Operator Instructions]

Yes, is it better now?

Yes, sir. Now it's better.

Yes.

Hello?

Yes. Yes. We can hear you.

Okay. Great. I was just asking that do we have some advantage on the manufacturing side that these other guys are manufacturing abroad and importing? Or they are also manufacturing within India?

I think the manufacturing they'll be doing locally is making us cost competitive with them, but it's not giving us an advantage because we're manufacturing larger volumes. So I wouldn't say like there's been a very specific advantage there. Right now, we're not much superior phase of our product cycle to them. So I'd say like -- I'd personally believe that our products are right now better quality than -- at least better features in terms of what they're doing. So I think that's the only, right now, what I'd say like is the key differentiating factor, hopefully, for the next year to 2. But yes.

The next question is from the line of Piyush from Resurgence.

Congratulations on good set of numbers. Sir, wanted to understand more about the CapEx. We've done a INR 24 crore CapEx this year. So can you just help us with the breakup? How much of this is on printers, on rent versus the maintenance CapEx and your number guidance for the next 2 years on this front?

So, this year, the CapEx has been on the higher side. But that was because we launched the Mask division, as we have already informed to you today. Apart from that, the other one is the rental and the cost per code that we send out. So those are the 2 main areas, which -- so apart from the Mask division, there is no other major CapEx. We are doing some in our Nalagarh facility, which is more now under the CWIP. We'll probably capitalize it in Q1 this year. That was just to -- we needed a newer modern stores building because the number of printers was increasing. So there's more of a debottleneck, which was required in Nalagarh facilities.

But I think the Nalagarh factories, we spent a reasonable amount, but it was just for more spaces what we needed.

Right. And going forward, we still believe that in terms of equipments, it will be more of maintenance in that INR 5 crore range that we've always maintained, apart from those printers and all those go on rentals. We'll still be seeing...

Sir, can you help me with the quantum?

Sorry?

Can you help me with the quantum? How much did we spend on the Mask division?

So on the Mask division, net-net, we would have about INR 10 crores, and around INR 7 crores was on the rental and the CPC contract. And there were some other on the building and stuff, which we've spent INR 2 crores, INR 3 crores.

All right. Sir, another question in this regard. We've also seen a markdown -- reduced depreciation this year. Do we expect this to continue forward as well, this quarterly run rate?

No. This year, the depreciation is higher -- high. Yes, yes. So depreciation...

For the quarter?

For the quarter, you're right. You're right. So what happened is that initially, the higher depreciation was because of the start of the Mask division. When we were depreciating it, we should move aggressively on the basis of the production. Now we've taken a more longer view on the Mask division, and we believe that this business will remain strong for the next 3 years -- 3 to 5 years. And so we've again gone back to the original company at provision of useful life. So that was the reason. But going forward, you will see it in the range of about INR 2.50 crores, INR 2.70 crores every quarter. So this quarter has been even out. But I think going forward, we'll be in the range of maybe close to INR 3 crores, even if I can say, INR 2.70 crores to INR 3 crores range.

All right. Sir, just one last one, if you can help me. Sir, we've seen the mix of printers getting higher towards 20% in the ratio, right? I think that is one of the reasons our gross margins have been lower. Do you see this mix altering now since installed base has been increasing at a faster pace? So for the next 2, 3 years, can we see higher sales of consumables and this mix changing a bit towards more 15% yes?

Yes. So I think just to answer that question, I think that there are 2, 3 things that happened. The first is that last year itself, we were actually expecting to cross INR 200 crores. What happened was we lost about 15 days at the fag end of last year -- not 15, maybe like 10, 12. And then we lost about, I'd say, like, it was very muted sale for the first 3, 4, 5 months, and that's below what came from the Q1. So what's happening is that our printer sales have been okay. They've not dropped by much because of the COVID. But because the production was less for a certain part of the year, I think that has impacted us. And I think also like a good chunk of what we sold in Q1 last year and even to some extent in Q2, I think that was like customer stockpiling because there was a lot of uncertainty around the logistics. And what we saw that again customers started going back to normal inventory levels. So like before they will be putting 3, 4 -- it's like the same way we are buying a lot more boards and PCBs and all that sort of stuff in this past year, we stocked up. But as things go back to normal, we'll start going back to not a just-in-time, but something more normal. So I think the same thing sort of happened in our customers because for a small thing like this, nobody wants to stop their production. So that's sort of the situation that happened. So again, I think in this year, like if you sell the printers, obviously, we're going to get the business, and that ratio doesn't really change. But what matters, in the end, is whether the customers are producing at like 30%, 40% capacity in all those industrial and other customers, or they're producing at 70%, 80%, which is normal and then at that stage is when they start looking at expanding the facilities and buying new printers. So I think it's been like fluctuating throughout the year because of the situation that's there. But I'm -- hopefully, like -- at least this time, the logistics will not be affected, the manufacturing will not be affected too much in the current situation because obviously, it's definitely, I mean, I will say, again, like in April, we were going quite strong. And again, it's a little bit -- like again, customers now will not meet for new projects and so on. It's just like about doing what's there right now. So I think the ratio is just going to depend on your how much the production is affected. If production is not affected, ratios will be normal what they've been historically. If production is affected, then the customers won't stop production lines, but what they do is they'll run them at a lower capacity and the consumers per printer will be reduced as a result.

But fundamentally, if the customers' production is increasing, the consumables ratio will be better for us and the gross margin will be better. So it's something that is -- which we're also hoping for. So we still believe that there is scope of improvement in our current financials.

The next question is from the line of Sachin from Svan Investments.

Congrats for a good set of numbers. How do we see our mix between the various segments over the next 2 to 3 years?

So like Mr. Shiva mentioned earlier, we are strong on the industrial side. And now our focus is also on the packaging side, where we have these new products, which are giving us good references. So we believe that apart from industrial, packaging will also grow at a strong pace for us. So next few years, maybe that ratio will change a little bit towards packaging.

But my question is more regarding the mix between printer, consumables and servicing, how do you see that mix changing?

Okay. Okay. Okay. Sorry for that. So yes, you've seen that printers have been going strongly for us, which is good in the long-term because this is what will give us the consumables business. And we believe that if we can get higher consumables, like in the last call, Mr. Shiva mentioned that if the production of the customers increases, definitely your consumable percentage will go up and then the profitability gets stronger. So we believe that at least right now if consumables is within the 50%, 51% range, it can go above 55%, close to 60%. And once that happens, the financials will be strong. So above 55% is definitely what we are looking to.

Sure. Secondly, you mentioned that the printer market is roughly around INR 1,100 crores. How big -- what has been the growth rate here? And secondly, how big would be the consumables and the servicing market?

Can you repeat that question, please?

I'm saying, first of all, what is the growth in the printer market? You said the market is around INR 1,100 crores, the organized market? And secondly, how big would be the consumables and the servicing? They would be like similar proportions to this? Or there the market sizes are different and their growth rate is also different?

No. I said the overall market is INR 1,500 crores, out of which the organized segment that is us and the other 3 others is about INR 1,100 crores to INR 1,150 crores. So I never said what was the printer size and the consumables size. So overall market is this size.

So this INR 1,100 crores also includes the consumables?

Yes. Absolutely. INR 1,100 crores, INR 1,150 crores includes the consumables, service and -- I mean it's the total revenue, so overall revenue.

Sure. And so the market mix would be more or less similar to the mix that we have? Or is the market mix different than the way we have, 20% is printer, 50% is consumables? The market mix is more or less similar?

I think it should be about similar. It depends on the mix, like 1, 2 companies like Videojet and all, they sell a lot more lasers. And also -- so maybe there, that's a higher percentage of their sales would be machines. But not too much different. We've not focused so much on the laser segment, so that makes a bit of -- not really much. I think it's similar levels, a couple of percent here and there, everyone is a bit different absolute terms.

And are there any opportunities for us in the export markets?

Yes, there are. But right now, it's not really possible for us to explore it. So the only countries that we're doing is Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Nepal. So I think we're just focusing there, but we'll not been able to do any travel and do anything for some time. And I guess not for the next 6, 8 months.

No, no, no, I'm not talking from a short-term. My question is more from a 3- to 5-year perspective. Can export be a significant growth driver over -- say, 5 years from now or 3 years from now, could export be like 10%, 20% of your revenues?

Yes, absolutely. So that was one of our plans. So that's why we started with the neighboring countries. The thing is we have to be careful because whoever we are working with, whether it's a distributor or directly, we have to make sure our service level is high to the end customer. Otherwise, we can sell once, but we won't get the repeat sales. And the new business can't grow. So that's the only thing that's there. But yes, I mean it's definitely something that's there, but not -- I think not in this current year, so not going to make much of an impact.

Currently exports should be what, 2%, 3% of revenues?

I don't know offhand. But yes, maybe about 3%, 4%.

No, a little more, about maybe 3%, 3.5%.

The next question is from the line of Deepak Poddar from Sapphire Capital.

So just wanted to understand, like any sort of revenue trajectory we are looking at for the next 2 to 3 years kind of. You did mention about the strong demand momentum and the worst is behind. So any sort of comment on that would be helpful.

Yes, right now we can't say because of the situation. I mean I think this last year, we got affected, as everyone knows. So yes, I mean, even in the previous year, I think the March definitely got affected. So last year, we got affected overall in the whole year. So it's difficult to say. Like, I think once the situation is streamlined, then we can get a better idea of what the thing is. The market overall under normal circumstances was growing 10%, maybe 12% a year. But right now, it's -- I think even from what my understanding is like, overall, the market was sort of affected last year overall. So I think the best thing is if you look at industrial production or manufacturing growth of the country, our business will grow at 1.5, 2x that. So I think -- so that's a fair assumption.

[Operator Instructions] The question is from the line of Aman Vij from Astute Investments.

My question is to understand the submarket. So for example, we are the leader in MDF market and quite strong in pipe. So are these markets like under INR 50 crores each or some of them are big? Could you talk about that?

I think that's unfortunately a bit confidential. So that's an information very specifically we can't give you. I did mention overall that the packaging is 70% and industrial is 30%. But going down to that next level specifics, we wouldn't be able to provide that because our competitors are private. So it's right now something I can't disclose.

Okay. Could you talk about our growth in the industrial segment for FY '20 as well as the packaging segment -- for FY '21, sorry?

Yes. Rahul. Rahul? Hello, Rahul?

Sir, let me check. Sir, the line for Mr. Rahul got disconnected, sir.

Okay. So I think that definitely, in the past year, I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but my own understanding is that, I think, the industrial was more muted for us, and the packaging growth was one of the main drivers. So it was a better, more consistent. I don't have the exact numbers as Rahul is not there, but I'd say like industrial was not really much at all. So most of the growth that we had was packaging.

Yes. And sir, this was the trend, I think, in last year also, right? So last 2, 3 years, we have mostly grown in packaging, if my understanding is correct?

No. I think this is more of a story of last year. Before that, we've grown in industrial and we've grow in packaging. But I think in the last year, it's been more on the packaging market, specifically in the last year. We had a fairly okayish printer sale overall, that was not bad. But I think in the industrial segment, the consumption for printer went down, and that's -- our belief is that the capacity is not -- these companies are not running at the normal capacity.

Yes. On that part, sir, cement and steel sectors, which I think we are also supplying to those sectors, are doing decently well. So any reasons we have not grown in these 2, 3 sectors?

Yes. So I'm talking like from an overall annual basis, not from a quarterly basis. So what happens, again, in cement, we've actually lost a lot of market share, which I don't know if you guys have followed, but over the last few years because I mean they're using piratings. So they use like, so these unorganized suppliers or piratings because they just want the cheapest print. And in the steel segment, we're printing on value-added steel. So we're not printing so much on the ingots and the bricks and all. What we are doing is we are printing on the color-coated steel or galvanized sheets and so on, and pipes and whatnot. So that market has grown. But then again, what happened was like those markets were affected for a part of the year. So from an overall annual basis, I don't know what sort of production growth there was. I mean I don't know the numbers offhand. But I think overall on an annual basis, it wasn't that significant. A lot of these markets are linked either to construction because they're using things like roofing sheets and partitions and all sorts of things, automotive, white goods and those sort of things. So overall, those markets also had the ups and downs over the year. So again, it's -- so I don't know how the annual numbers worked out. So that might be a better indication, numbers more. So in Q4, it -- honestly, it was almost back to normal. Now again it'll be affected.

Steel industry, to be honest, we have a very strong presence, in the coding and marking segment. But the industry is so large, so you can't actually relate our product to their total -- the volumes that they've done because we probably will be doing on a few steel products. But whatever few we do, we dominate.

Sure, sir. And my second question is on the packaging segment. So we have done quite well this year, and I think you have hinted over the next 2, 3 years, we will be growing, we'll be changing our ratio more towards packaging. So sir, the market is still growing at 10%, 12%, but I think we are targeting much higher growth. So...

I think last year didn't -- last year, I don't think the market growth was there, if much at all.

Okay. And in spite of that, we grew quite well. So there is definitely market share gain, if my understanding is correct. So any particular subsegment, which we are quite bullish on? And is there a technological advantage? You were explaining quite well that we are leading in terms of technology and products in this cycle, maybe.

Yes. So I think that, that will hopefully serve us for the next 2, 3 years. So I think the idea would be, obviously, that the -- in some parts of the product, I'm not saying overall, obviously. But I think the idea, like I said, is that we are weak in certain industries. So it's just a matter of seeing whether we can capture some key customers in those industries. It's been a bit slow because of the corona. And so we had catered a lot of work in the previous year to this. And last also, we've got some opportunities. Again, what happens is, like I said, when there's a situation...

Sorry to interrupt, sir. This is conference operator, sir. There is a slight airy disturbance coming from your line.

Yes. Even I can hear it. I don't know. Is this better?

Yes, sir. Now it's better.

What happens is a lot of times is, even when you break through a customer and you have some things, especially when people are -- when they need to change equipment, in this time, when this pandemic and all, because they're meeting less, it's less of a priority for them to go from -- to make, what you can say, like, changes that are unnecessary in their view, just because something is a bit better. They just want to be as conservative as possible. I think that slightly limited us. But I think that because our product range is better in certain different areas, different segments, we're getting some advantages for that, and that's helping us definitely. So I think the idea would be, obviously, to just keep that up and do it -- do the best we can in that since we have enough product range and service field network to try to convert that market share gains, those segments.

Sure. And has the 2, 3 printers which we have launched in the last 1, 2, 3 years, has that helped in getting more market share than packaging segment, specifically?

Yes, I think that's been instrumental.

The next question is from the line of Madhuchanda Dey from MC Research.

My question is pretty simple. While we have ended the year on a strong note, have you seen any change on the ground in the last 1 month?

Yes, definitely. I think we -- I answered that earlier. But definitely, I mean, it's going to be more muted. Production still doesn't seem to be that affected as of yet. But -- and obviously, the mood is a bit subdued, for sure. I mean I think the -- I mean let's face it. The pandemic has hit really hard, much harder than in fact what had happened last year. But I hope that if the logistics and manufacturing got affected last something in the way essential because of the -- there was no logistics available for us, like it affected us very badly, the whole logistics network sort of got affected. So I think that this time at least, I think the -- if the logistics and manufacturing is less affected, we would not have so much of an effect relatively speaking on our business. But obviously, in the end, we all relate it to GDP and GDP per capita. And like I said, we are a secondary industry. So if our primary customer is producing less steel or selling less automobiles or buying less steel, then we are printing on less steel and so on. So we -- in the end, it depends on the manufacturing and industrial growth. And right now, I'll say -- it's less in manufacturing, but the mood is like a bit -- like it's one of those things that delay new projects, delay new things.

Yes. Got it. Just one related question. You mentioned that you were very heavy on industrial and relatively low on packaging, which is changing now. So as on fourth quarter, what was the share of packaging in the revenue?

So earlier, we were like 60-40, more towards industrial. It's not changed very drastically because in industry, still there's a strong role for us and is also growing along with packaging. So I would say it's maybe a 5% shift, maybe. So 55-45 kind of.

Okay. So 55% industrial and 45% packaging. That's what, right?

Roughly. Roughly.

Yes. So my -- the reason I'm harping on this point is, as far as the Packaging segment is concerned, most are more evergreen businesses, relatively less affected by a pandemic situation, if it were to worsen also. So do you think, to that extent, that part of the business is insulated and whatever disappointment comes is likely to come more from the manufacturing side? Is it a correct understanding?

It's anybody's guess. I mean your guess is as good as mine in this pandemic situation. We didn't see any trend line in the previous year. So current year also, we'll have to watch because this is a different situation compared to last year, like Mr. Shiva said that productions are not affected as of now, like we mentioned what happened in the past 1 month. We can't see any industrial units shutting production. But if consumer demand goes down in the next few months, then obviously, people will cut production. So let's just wait and watch. Right now, we feel that things will not get much affected, but let's not over-project as well.

The next question is from the line of [ Falguni Dutta ] from Jet Age Securities.

Hello? Sir, am I audible?

Yes, very clearly.

Yes, yes. So just wanted to know if the -- as our packaging mix increases, so in short, are more consumables used if we serve the packaging sector, just because of the volume being -- I mean is the consumables consumption -- would the consumables consumption increase if our packaging mix increases compared to industrial?

I don't think there will be a major shift, which will impact our financials to a great extent because packaging, though, it's a good industry, good paymaster, they're more organized, but their prints and their consumption is still much lower than compared to steel or a wire or a cable industrial side because -- let's say, on the pharma side or on a tetra pack, the amount that is printed is quite small. We need -- really need a magnifying glass at times to see it. And even the content that is printed is much lesser, whereas on a pipe or a cable, it's like a continuous print over thousands of meters of thing and on plywood...

But the volume would be more, no, in packaging, but it will...

That's why I said it could be a little bit, but it's not something that it would affect our financials.

Okay. Understood. And sir, one more question is on the installed base. What was the installed base of printers in FY '19? I mean just -- I just wanted to know, like 2 years back, what was...

'19 was -- it has been about 2,000 printers. So right now, we are about 13,000 to 14,000. That time will be about close to 10,000, I would say, 9,000 to 10,000. And now about 13,000, 14,000.

So this 3,000 additional printers over 2 years, can we expect this number to be much higher over the next 2 years?

So we mentioned in the earlier question that it seems sustainable. We believe we don't have any reason to believe this will go down. But at the same time, we don't think it will go up significantly. We are pushing. We have a strong team on the field. And if people are adding capacities, I feel this range is sustainable. If they add more, we'll definitely -- we'll have to see for that.

And sir, one last question is, what was our printer volume in FY '20?

You mean the printer sales volume?

Yes, printer sales volume.

Roughly similar, about 2,500 printers.

The next question is from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor & Company.

Congratulations to the team. I hope everybody is doing good, sir. Sir, firstly, on this investment in the Mask segment and this INR 8 crore capital work in progress, if you could explain how these 2 amounts are going to benefit the company going forward in terms of increase in revenue and the bottom line?

So Mask, we've told you that it was an investment, which we did basically in the pandemic period for the society and the CSR activity. We're quite confident that the investment will definitely be recovered. But now we find that it is also a good business model in the long run because our product is, we feel superior, and it can sustain even post pandemic on a long-term basis. So we are now hoping that things will be more stable. But things are so volatile, I would not like to make any predictions because the prices are changing, the quantity demand is changing. So we've just given a little more time for things to stabilize. We -- like we had mentioned earlier that we have done a good quality investment in this project. And considering the Control Print's brand image and strength, we believe that the smaller players will wither out. But the more stable players, like Control Print, will be in the market for the long term. The second wave is definitely showing -- is proving our strategy because we find that there were many smaller players in the first wave, which now are not available and the quantities that we are receiving is much higher in terms of count. So this also, as we think, is as a good export market post pandemic. So we are quite now confident on this Mask being a good strategy. The second part that you asked on the CWIP is related to our -- mostly on the Nalagarh facility. We are expanding our building and -- because we need more space as the printer volumes are increasing. And that was the reason we wanted to get more organized. So the most of the CWIP will get capitalized most probably in the Q1 itself, related to the Nalagarh facility.

Sir, what my point was, how is this going to improve the margins in that sense? We are investing in for debottlenecking. So what would be...

We'll have to do that. Saketji, if the volume of printers is increasing, to continue to manufacture them and look at a couple of years down the line, we have to invest in our building facility also.

Sir, my second question is relating to FY '18, sir. In FY '18, we did have revenue of around INR 174 crores, and our EBITDA -- gross margins were 68%, and EBITDA margins were closer to 29%. So sir, just to get back to this level, what factors did played out for us during that time? And in the coming years, can we look forward to reach that mark again? Or this gross margin in the vicinity of 61% to 64%, 65% is a reasonable number, your thought process? And on the...

Saketji, the game changer is the higher percentage of consumables that -- which we all know and we've discussed in this call. So selling printers is a good sign. As you know, if we sell now, the volumes will keep on increasing. And right, we are all discussing about the INR 300 crore mark now. So we believe that only if we keep selling printers, the consumable volumes will increase, so we might be a few percentages down. But 24% on EBITDA still is a strong, sustainable number. And once the consumable increases, we believe it can definitely go closer to that 29%, which you're talking about. But with printers selling well, we are quite happy at this stage. We have to reach out to even the last mile user and on a long-term basis, this is what the business requires.

Sir, as you told, the INR 300 crores mark is for 2 years guidance?

2 will be aggressive. But yes, in 3 years, it's, I think, achievable.

The next question is from the line of Shalabh Agarwal from Snowball Capital.

So the first question is, there was a comment made that we have got a competitor for pipe -- we've got an account from a competitor for our pipe division. So can you just elaborate on what led to us gaining that account because typically, we have seen customers don't change their vendors in this business.

So like I mentioned, we have very strong references in that industry and are continuously evolving our printers to meet the requirements. You know that there is a lot of spurious that is -- pipes that are sold in this industry. If you are following that, you would be knowing these industries have been concerned about the spurious pipe spreading. So we do help them out to innovate and try to make certain changes for -- on the printing side, which can differentiate them from the spurious pipe suppliers. So that has been something that we've been working closely with the pipe industry. And this reference is helping us gain customers.

Sure. So was this account gain from one of the other 3 suppliers?

So I would just say that it's a competitor account. I wouldn't like to divulge more on that.

Sure. Sure. So sir, secondly, having asked in one of the earlier questions, you had indicated that we are primarily selling to the guys who are doing the packaging, right, like Britannia would buy the packaging line and these will then integrate our printers or the other competitors' printers into the packaging lines. So who are these packaging manufacturers or our customers who we are selling?

So there are certain OEM sales that we do. So these are the packaging industries in India who are supplying those FFS lines to the packaging industry. Apart from that, we also do a lot of direct sales because customers don't want to go through OEMs all the time, knowing that they have to buy the consumable as well as they get the service from Control Print. So they, at times, like to place direct purchase orders and build the relationship right from the printing. So it's basically these packaging lines that now is the time to.

Sure. So sir, what broadly would be the OE percentage in our sales broadly?

The OE?

OE, sir, where we are selling it to packaging manufacturers?

OEM?

OEM, yes.

Okay. The OEM sales. So it's growing for us. I'll be honest with you. Earlier, we were more focused on direct sales, then we've got an all India manager now who is focusing on the OEM sales. This has definitely grown for us, but still is very nascent, maybe 1% or 2% of our turnover as of now. But it's a segment that we have to remain focused. And we think that we can get some more business.

Difficult to understand because that's more of a printer sale. So the bulk of our revenue still comes from the consumers and the filters and the services and all those sort of things, spares. That is not connected to this. So that's more of a printer sale tool. Again, like I mentioned earlier, a lot of OEM sales are also sort of actual directed sales. So lot of time, a customer will buy our printer. He's happy with our printer. Then when he's buying some machinery from a supplier, he will tell that supplier that use this person's printer. I want -- these are my specification. So the billing is happening via -- because it's simpler for him, the machine is already mounted from the beginning on his parent line and so on and so forth. So that's why we prefer it rather than getting everything at their factory and then they are running around doing all of these things. But it's not really -- it's not necessarily like a new market. It's still the customer who's sort of saying that this is what I want. So it's like when I'm buying -- I don't know, like I'm doing my house, I say I want a Polycab cable, I want pipes from Ashirvad, I want something. So I'm specifying that. But yes, the architect is the one who's getting billed. He's just sending me one bill for everything. But it's been my decision to use tiles from Kajaria. You understand what I'm saying?

I got it. Got it. Got it. So in this, the installation will not be done by us? Our sales people or our service people will not be installing the printer at the lines, right?

Normally, what we do is we supply to the OEM our printer. We integrate at his line. He sends the entire line to the customer. And at that time, normally we reinstall the printer and do training if he's a new customer or depending on situation and it depends. So normally, we install the line at -- a printer on the OEM's line.

Sure, sure. And sir, lastly...

In his factory, and he will ship the entire thing to the customer. That's the basic benefit. But it's all tested beforehand that everything is handshaking well and so.

Sure. And sir, what...

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [ Sami Ahuja ], an individual investor.

Sir, am I audible?

Yes.

Yes. Yes. Again, congratulations on a great set of numbers this quarter. So I just wanted to understand that what were the margins in the industrial versus packaging segment? Are they different? That would be the first question.

No, not really. We don't have a kind of breakup like that, that we share, but we would assume that it's quite similar. It's only that depends on how much consumable is sold in that segment. So it's tough to say whether industrial is more profitable or -- we don't look at it that way.

Fair enough. And the second question was, what was -- is there any effect of this -- I mean you did kind of answer that question, but just wanted to kind of get a little bit more clarity. In terms of the effect of the second wave on the...

Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Ahuja. Sir, there is a disturbance coming from your line, sir.

Yes. Is it better right now?

We can hear you.

Yes, yes. Okay. Yes. So what is the effect of the second wave on the outlook in Q1, in particular? And also, I know it's kind of hard to kind of project it further out. But in terms of Q1, I mean, are we seeing any material impact as of now?

So like I answered earlier, we haven't seen any of the production lines going down or the factories shutting during this, the second wave. So our business is not really materially affected. But yes, if consumable consumer demand goes down a few months down the line and productions are withheld or cut down, like Mr. Shiva said, maybe capacities are lower, then we'll have to see. But as of now, we can't see any lower trend.

The next question is from the line of [ Deepak ], an individual investor.

I hope everyone is keeping well. I have 2 questions related to noncore business. Noncore business, I believe you explained a lot. One is related to the current investment. So as per the results, you have INR 25 crores of current investments. Is it all equity? That's one. And whether the company will continue with this investment in equity in future as well? And second question is related to the real estate business. Earlier, the company used to report a segment in real estate with respect to its Chandivali property. Is there any plan with respect to that monetization?

So on the investment, though, you all are seeing an increase, I would like to clarify that most of it is because of the mark-to-market. It was about INR 14 crores. That was in March 2020, when the markets had slumped. And now with the markets improving, it has gone to INR 25 crores. But that jump mostly is because of the mark-to-market. There is not any additional investments that we've done. Maybe there's some change of portfolios. But there's no real cash flows that have got affected because of this increased investment. And I'm sure that each one of you are the experts, and your investments would have also gone up, but it's more of a mark-to-market rather than actual cash outflow from the company. The second part on the real estate is no, kind of it's too fluid and too many things are changing. So not -- no development on that front. We continue to hold the Chandivali property.

The next question is from the line of V.P. Rajesh from Banyan Capital.

Yes, my questions have been answered for now.

As there are no further questions, I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Karan Bhatelia, from Asian Market Securities, for closing comments.

Yes. Thank you, Rahul, and thank you, Shiva, for extensive call.

Yes. Thank you, everybody. Thank you for participating. Please stay safe and healthy during this tough time and staying with your family.

Absolutely. Thank you, everybody, and be safe. I think that's the best thing that everyone can do. Thanks.

Thank you, Karan. Thanks so much.

Thanks, Karan.

Thank you. With this, I think we can close the conference. Thank you.

Thank you. On behalf of Asian market Securities, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.