Control Print Limited (522295) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Q1 FY '22 Results Conference Call for Control Print Limited hosted by Asian Markets Securities Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Karan Bhatelia from Asian Markets Securities. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thanks, Mallika. Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon, and welcome all to the Control Print Limited First Quarter FY '22 Earnings Conference Call hosted by Asian Markets Securities. From the management side, we have with us Mr. Shiva Kabra, Joint Managing Director; Mr. Rahul Khettry, CFO. I now hand the conference to Rahul for his opening remarks, post which we shall open the floor for question and answer. Over to you, Rahul.

Thank you very much, Karan. Welcome, everyone, to the First Quarter FY '20 (sic) [ FY '22 ] Earnings Conference Call of Control Print. We appreciate you all taking out time from your busy schedule to attend the call. Hope you and your loved ones are safe and healthy. Mr. Shiva Kabra, Joint Managing Director, joins me on this call. Let us start with a brief on Control Print followed by specific analysis of the financials of the current quarter and end with the Q&A session. The detailed presentation has already been put up on our website as well as the investor presentation, notification sent to the exchanges. For those who are probably reviewing the company for the first time, Control Print is in the niche coding and marking segment, which is an oligopolistic market with 4 major players; 3 of whom are MNCs and Control Print is the only Make in India manufacturer. This gives us an advantage to sell our products locally and compete strongly with the other multinational players. We are the only integrated player with capacity to manufacture both printers as well as consumables in India, giving us an advantage to share the benefit with our customers. This also gives confidence to the customers for long-term partnership with Control Print. We have our manufacturing facilities in Nalagarh in the state of Himachal Pradesh for the manufacturing of the printers and in Guwahati in the state of Assam for the manufacturing of consumables. Both the manufacturing locations are state-of-the-art facility to produce good quality products. All our consumables are manufactured in the Guwahati plant. And in addition to this, we have also started manufacturing some printers in that location. We have a strong sales and service team of 350-plus engineers across our 11 plus branches, which gives us the advantage to service our customers efficiently and timely since after-sales service is very critical to ensure that the production lines of our customers continue to function continuously, thereby maintaining customer satisfaction. The 11-plus branches across North, South, East, West and Central India gives us an advantage to be in direct contact with all our customers in a timely manner since our products are critical to their production process. Post sales of printers, there is a continuous demand for consumables over the life of the printer, which typically lasts for 5 to 7 years depending on operating conditions. We have our complete attention on our customers' requirements to ensure their production is never affected and service requests are immediately attended, thereby giving our customers confidence -- gaining our customers' confidence. We have an end-to-end SAP ERP system setup, which ensures maximum transparency in accounting, sales and after-sales service as well as total control from raw material planning to ordering of the receivable collection and is integrated with our CRM system, which gives the confidence to the team, the customers as well as our auditors and investors. We have a widespread customer base catering to multiple industries like pipes and cables, metals, automotive, food and beverages, FMCG, pharma, and we continuously endeavor to customize our products to reach out to other industries to increase our installed base. We have the entire range of products in our portfolio to meet the coding and marking requirements of the industry. The details are elaborated in our company presentation. As of today, the company has an installed base of 14,000-plus printers across industries, which enables the sale of consumables across the life cycle of the printer. We are very confident that we have the best-in-class products to meet the requirements of most of the substrates, which gives an additional advantage to the customers to do business with Control Print. With a strong foundation and 5 pillars that is man, machine, material, technology and finance, well established to augment our business plan, we are continuously striving for greater heights. Let me give a brief analysis of the financials of quarter 1 for the financial year '21/'22. The manufacturing activities in the last quarter of FY '21, that is the previous quarter, were very strong, and most of the industries were pushing their production to make up the time lost due to the impact of the pandemic. The momentum continued in the month of March -- April '21, but the eruption of the second wave of COVID once again forced almost all the states to announce lockdowns and restrictions in activity. This has once again affected our economy as a whole and weakened the demand cycle. The production in most of the industries was curtailed in the month of May. And though the lockdown was eased in the month of June, the recovery in production has been slower than expected. In our assessment, the worry about the third wave of COVID is looming and various industries are producing cautiously. These are extraordinary situations when the strength of the company is tested, and we can assure you that Control Print is geared up for any challenge. We are financially stable and robust and will continue to perform in spite of the unforeseen challenges. This stability of Control Print has been reaffirmed by credit rating agency, CRISIL, with an A rating after considering the short and the medium-term impact of the COVID pandemic. Our investors can maintain their belief on the company's management for an optimistic future. This quarter, we achieved revenue above INR 50 crores for the fourth consecutive quarter, which makes it sustainable in the long run. We are confident the revenue and profitability levels will increase as the economy stabilizes post the pandemic. We delivered a revenue of INR 54.4 crores in this quarter in spite of the slowdown due to the second wave of COVID. We are not making any year-on-year comparison as the first quarter of the previous year was the peak for the first wave of COVID and more severely affected than the current quarter. Profit before exceptional items is INR 8.69 crores, which was lower than the previous sequential quarter, mostly due to lower sales of consumables as the industrial production was restricted. With the recovery in the industrial production, the consumables revenue will also increase, which will boost the profitability. The company maintains healthy margins with profit after tax at 21.5% and EBITDA at 22.35%, with scope of improvement due to better product mix and higher revenues, triggering economies of scale. We shall continue to maintain -- we should continue to maintain EBITDA margins north of 24% on a long-term sustainable basis. Let me brief you on the performance of various divisions, products and business segments. Printers had a positive demand in spite of a challenging environment, though the installations were delayed. The increased installed base will drive the business in the coming quarters. The company continues to dominate the wood and the pipe sector, and FMCG is picking up. The flagship division, CIJ, witnessed positive demand and will remain strong over the coming quarters. The demand was mainly due to some of the industries where we have a stronghold like pipes, cable, steel, food, FMCG, beverages, and it was also encouraging to see growth in some of the upcoming sectors like dairy, pharma, paints, et cetera. New product launches of TIJ, TTO, high-res are very bullish with some good installations, and we are confident they will continue to add value to the company's business plan. We have dedicated managers and teams to drive these verticals with focus on dairy, beverages, biscuits, frozen food, ready-to-eat, pharma, packaging, plywood, lubricants, carton coding, et cetera. These new products should continue to generate traction during these challenging times, which builds confidence on the potential of these products in the coming years. Laser printer business is growing steadily with positive response from the customers and new opportunities expected in the coming quarters. The face mask division will contribute to the company's revenue and the second wave of COVID has created additional demand for the masks. The company has strong cash flows and this has helped us reward the shareholders with a final dividend of INR 4.5 per share, which was approved in yesterday's AGM, thereby taking the total dividend to INR 8.5 per share for the financial year '20/'21. Control Print retains its position in the list of top 1,000 companies in the stock exchange by market cap on the National Stock Exchange. While the pandemic has impacted the economy as a whole, we hope with the increase in the vaccination population, the worst is behind us and with return to normalcy over the next few months, we hope for similar trend of growth trajectory. Fundamentally, the company remains strong, and we are focused on our plan and strategy, and we are confident of the growth potential to deliver positive returns. The floor is now open for questions.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Swechha Jain from ANS Wealth.

Sir, I'm pretty new to this company so some of the questions may be repetitive of the questions may have been asked in the previous calls, so please apologize me for that. But my first question is, sir, if you could throw some light on the industry as to how big the industry is globally and particularly in India? And how do you see the industry going ahead? And also, if you could throw some light as to who are the key players? How big is the unorganized sector in this? And what is our market share for this?

Shiva, you'll...

You want me to take that question or you want to take it?

Shiva, you take that.

Yes. So regarding the industry size, in India, the -- it's a 4-player market, essentially. There are 3 foreign subsidiaries of 3 global companies that compete along with us. And our -- between the 4 of us, approximately the revenue size is about between INR 1,050 crores to INR 1,100 crores. The unorganized market would be another 25%, 30% of the overall market. So maybe INR 1,500 crores, INR 1,600 crores of the size of the overall market in India as of right now. And worldwide, it's depending on how you define it. It could be between about $4.7 billion to $7 billion. So it depends on which products include exactly in that. So that was the first part of your question. Then you had asked something about the evolution. So if you can just repeat it because...

Yes. So how do you see the market shaping up in India? Because INR 1,500 crores is still a very small market, right? I mean -- and for us, how do you see in terms of the export opportunity? And then what is our market share in the -- and how big -- okay, so you've answered the unorganized. Sir, if you could just throw the light as to how do we see the industry shaping up? Because I think INR 1,500 crores is still a very small market size, right?

So frankly, like the market, of course, for the last 1.5 years has been quite stagnant, to be honest, because of the whole pandemic. So we are an indirect market. So it really depends on manufacturing growth. So if you look at China, for example, they are like -- as a market, they're more than INR 10,000 crores. So like they're a pretty big part of the market because they have a lot of manufacturing there, whereas India -- so till the GDP reaches -- per capita reaches about $5,000, normally, the organized segment of the market increases faster than the unorganized segments, organized packaging. So there's a sort of trend that people used to buy sugar in gunny bags, now they buy it in packets. People used to buy made chips from the local bakery, now they buy from Frito-Lays or packaged chips. So the packaged consumer goods sector normally grows faster than the overall market. And the same thing is there for the industrial side. So you sort of make bulk steel before, then you start making value-added products, cables, wires, those types of things. And they all require more printing. So as GDP per capita goes to about $5,000, maybe $5,000, $6,000 per capita what our observation from other countries mean that the industry growth is about twice that of GDP growth. It -- it's also slightly difficult to predict because in India, it's -- the manufacturing growth has been a bit weak over the last few years. So it's also going to depend not on overall GDP growth because, of course, if TCS or Infosys, and all are driving India's GDP, it doesn't really benefit us particularly. But if it's more broad based, if it's more manufacturing led, then obviously, the market should grow about twice the pace of GDP, that's the normal way that the market extrapolates to at about $5,000 to $6,000 per capita. After that, till about -- it reaches about $10,000 per capita, it grows to about 1.5x GDP growth. And then beyond that point, it's not really about volume growth, it's more about premiumization. So people will go from regular chocolate to like dark chocolate to like single origin dark chocolate. So the total volume you are consuming of products is going up quite slowly then. So then it sort of slows down and goes along with GDP at about $10,000 or $12,000 per capita. So that's sort of where the market is. So if you see stuff like Thailand or Indonesia, on a per capita basis, their consumption or their -- the size of the market is much bigger than us or China because there that's about $8,000 to $12,000 range per capita. Indonesia will be about $4,000, $5,000, but it's significantly -- it's almost half the size of Indian market, if not more, even though it's not that big of a country. So that's sort of where the market goes. But I mean, in the end, it is going to depend on the manufacturing growth within India indirectly because...

Sir, do we see export opportunity for us?

So we have started -- in Bangladesh, we've been operating for a few years and in Sri Lanka also and even in Nepal also some times. So we're not focused beyond this area. We were actually looking quite actively at Africa and some other things, but then because of the pandemic, of course, everything's sort of gone silent in all honesty. So we're not -- again, because we can't travel and we can't do anything, it's not the main area. We do have a strong market in India. So obviously, for us, this is the price right now because this is where the market is growing. We are very well established and -- I'd be honest, like there's also like a certain amount of management bandwidth and energy we have. It's not really about capital right now. It's not really about the products. So if we can do it without really making a huge investment in terms of manpower and diverting our attention, then we will surely focus on the export market more. But the main focus is to grow our business in India and the South Asian countries first. And that's the primary focus for us right now.

Okay. Okay. Sir, can I ask 1 more question...

This is because there's a little amount of management bandwidth like to be honest.

Right, right. Sir, can I ask 1 more question, then I'll join back in the queue if that's okay?

I mean, it's actually up to the moderator, so I can't say.

Ma'am, I'd request you to rejoin the queue for follow-up questions. The next question is from the line of Devanshu Sampat from Yes Securities.

So I had a few questions. One is I just wanted to check that the share of traded goods in sales has been on the rise. So I presume these are the non-CIJ printers that we are selling. So is there any plan to start manufacturing these or are we going to continue the same way that we are operating right now?

So Devanshu, we actually manufacture all the non-CIJ printers ourselves. We pretty much -- we manufacture the entire product range. Sometimes, we sell a lot of accessories, software, other bits, conveyors and other things that go with our printer. So it's not just the printer, but it's some -- people want sometimes a full system for traceability or sometimes they want -- there's some other equipment that goes along with the printer, like sensors or other things. So those all come as part of our traded goods. So that would be it. And sometimes when we launch new models, just in the beginning when the volumes are low, we import those models. So it's -- I mean, it could have gone up or down, but I don't see it being a major factor. Rahul, you want to revert back on this?

Yes. Devanshu, mostly, we are manufacturing most of our printers, unless it's a special printer that the customer requires.

No, no, the reason I'm asking because the share of your purchase of stock in trade has moved up quite a bit in the last 3, 4 years, so I was just wondering.

Yes, those could be some unique printers.

Okay. Okay. And another point is your -- 40% of your cost of material consumed is imported, which has been on the rise from roughly around say 18% in FY '13, gradually it's been on the rise, it's come to about 40%. I presume this would largely be consumables. So...

It would mainly be printer -- equipment -- for equipment.

Basically, the electronics, Devanshu, which are high valued and that's what is increasing it. There is a shortage of chips and other things in the market. So that's why it's slightly increased compared to the previous year. I'm not comparing it to 2013 because -- but if you compare it to the previous year, it is increased by a few percentages, and that's mostly because of shortages...

Yes. I just wanted to point out what happened was -- also I just want to point out something, earlier on, when we were importing certain goods, some of the suppliers of ours, like say, the suppliers for the pumps or the electronics, they had their own distributors in India also, and we used to purchase through their distributors. And what happened was -- so it's actually the same good, but we are buying it from the local partner of whoever, from, say, AMD or whatever. For example, we're buying from AMD India. And as our volumes increase, we found it more cost efficient and better to just import it directly rather than pay the additional overhead cost of getting it through the Indian distributor or a subsidiary or whatever arrangement they had out here. And so we have shifted a lot of the purchase of goods, quite low-value items, we now prefer to import them directly. So it's not fundamentally changed if you -- from a level that it was still imported than it was just being routed as a direct purchase in India. But now we're purchasing it directly from the supplier. So that's where the -- so that could just change up the numbers, but fundamentally, it hasn't actually changed.

Okay. Okay. And just coming to your depreciation for the quarter from what I remember you saying earlier that we have the investment that we did for the mask business, we were -- we thought that the life will be longer. So depreciation should be lower. But again, it's moved up. So can you throw some light on this, please?

So I did mention that the depreciation will be in the range of -- would be similar to the whole year. So actually don't compare it to Q4 because in Q4, it had an impact of the previous quarter's depreciation getting negated. But if you compare it to the full year's depreciation of INR 12 crores, then this quarter, about INR 3 crores, INR 3.3 crores should be fine. So I think on a yearly basis, the INR 12 crores to INR 13 crores is what you should assume the depreciation to remain. Don't compare it to previous quarters.

So this run -- basically, this INR 3 crores, INR 3.5 crores would be run rate?

Yes, INR 12 crores to INR 13 crores for the year, so maybe INR 3 crores, INR 3.5 crores for the quarter is what it should be. Q4 was actually lower, it was not because of some previous quarters...

And just last question from my side. Can you tell me what the planned CapEx is for this year? And also, what was the INR 7.3 crores CWIP as of 31st March. If you can throw some light on that too?

Yes. So for the current and the next year, we don't foresee any major CapEx beyond whatever's maintained in say the INR 3 crores to INR 5 crores a year, this year and the next year. So like I think we've mentioned it before, I think we have pretty good to go to about INR 300 crores to INR 350 crores. So we don't need anything. And fundamentally, we did a debottlenecking in our Nalagarh factory. It was actually stuck up because COVID. But -- so we've expanded that factory so that -- because we had some -- we needed to debottleneck our printer production capacity. So that's where we've spent some money, a few crores on that.

Devanshu, that's what capitalized as of 30th June, the INR 7 crores that you are seeing as CWIP.

This INR 7 crores is towards this debottlenecking effort?

Yes, for the Nalagarh facility that Shiva was talking about and that got capitalized in -- on 30th June.

The next question is from the line of Madhuchanda Dey from MC Research.

Am I audible?

Yes, I can hear you.

Yes. I have just a simple question. How has the pickup been in the month of July so far? And if we were to compare it with 2019 July, what percentage of 2019 July have you reached so far?

So ma'am, to be honest, once things opened up in June, we expected that it will be a quick recovery, but that was lesser than expected, but if I have to come -- talk about July, the first half of July has definitely been a faster recovery, and we are seeing some good demand. But comparing it to 2019, I think you'll have to give us the full month of July because second half is always stronger compared to the first half of the month. So right now it might be premature to compare it to July '19. But the...

I understand it's premature. But if you could just give a ballpark indication, whether it's 75%, 50%, whatever is your broad sense, not really...

See we are little higher than that. I think we would be definitely 85% to 90% of the figure to compare because our -- don't compare it to all other industries because our installed base is increasing and what we've installed over the last 2 years is going to give us benefit in the coming year. So yes, for us, it's nearing 2019 July mid year, 10% lower.

Okay. Okay. So any kind of -- I mean, suppose assuming but not admitting, suppose if the third wave is mild, given your installed base, the demand for consumables, et cetera, what kind of ballpark top line are you gunning for in '22?

I think -- I mean, like I said, I think Rahul was talking. So I mean first, I apologize because, of course, we would have some sort of a July on July comparison definitely with previous years, but considering this is like, I think this is 20th of July, we don't have like an 18 or 19-day comparison just available offhand, although it might be there on Rahul's SAP feed, who pulls it out. But as far as the year goes -- it's been a strange year for us, I mean, a strange 2-odd years, to be honest, now almost because of the pandemic. So I mean I really hope the economy rebounds which I'm hoping it will, then we had like -- I think the last few months of the previous financial year were probably a better indication of where the market was or where it would be if it was not affected by the pandemic. So -- or maybe that was a rebound, which was more than normal. So it's very difficult for us to predict. I think it's just going to depend on where the economy is. If the economy is strong, then I think we should definitely have a very good year if manufacturing growth is strong. I think it -- May was very down for us because in April, we had a lot of spillover orders from March. So we've actually -- we had a strong April. And then May was quite muted and June was better than May, but it was still quite dull. But -- and July has been quite looking back to normal. So it's really difficult to predict. And there's a lot of variables because nobody even knows if there's going to be a third wave, how the economy is going to react and so on. So I think if the manufacturing growth is strong, we will definitely have a good year. And if not, we'll still have an okay -- I mean, a fairly good year because of all the internal work that we've done and the market share gains and so on.

So in this installed base of 14,000 plus what is industrial, non-industrial mix?

I'm not sure offhand, but overall, our revenue is about 65% industrial to 70% industrial traditionally and about 35% FMCG, personal care.

Well, that is on your historic base. But incrementally, suppose if you were to just take the last 12 months, if you could just give us a sense of what has been the incremental ratio of industrial?

Okay. Last year, we had a stronger sale in the Packaging segment. Again, that was because the industrial segment was more up and down. But again, it's like 1-year thing. So we don't know if that was sort of longer-term trend? Or is it just the industrial production is down, it will reboot completely. So what happened was again towards the end because a lot of stuff like where we sell a lot of things in construction, material based industries, like not only steel, but pipes, cable and wire, but of course, wood and so on. We've got a good amount of sales in the last few months -- last 6 months of last year. And then again, this quarter was a bit down. So the packaging sector is where we frankly focused on more in the last 15 months because our belief is that it will get less affected by the pandemic or next waves that are happening. So we've -- but I don't know, it's very difficult to understand how the mix is affected. I think the industrial sector goes down more when demand comes down and when the demand increases, it shoots up more. So whereas the packaging sector is more consistent. This is my rough reading of the situation. And so we've had better sales in the packaging sector, but I'm sure that this year there will be a good year for the industrial growth if there's no further pandemic-related issues and the economy's supported well by the government.

As far as your new generation printer is concerned -- this is the last question, ma'am. As far as your new generation printers are concerned, who are the buyers? Again, if you could give us a sense of the rough mix between industrial and packaging?

Thermal inkjet is mainly in the packaging sector. It would be mainly food, pharmaceutical or some beverage and personal care. The high-resolution printers will be a combination of packaging, whether you use or carton, coding and stuff, a lot goes in the wood sector. Yes, I think the thermal transfers is entirely in snack foods. So yes, I would say like in fact, most of the new generation printers would be in the packaging -- would be the majority of that in packaging, pharmaceutical and related industries.

Sir, typically, the cyclicality of your revenue would tend to go down as the share of the new generation printers go up. Is that a correct understanding?

I think that this -- if you ask me personally, I don't know, like this pandemic was, I mean, for me -- according to me is like the first time in lifetime something like this happened. So it's really difficult to say. So yes, I mean, I think considering that this was such an extreme event, obviously, the packaging sector was more resilient because people are still going to buy biscuits and groceries and things like that, whereas you can put off your consumption of buying washing machines and then all the components that go inside the washing machines which are printed by us and so on. So yes, it's -- you're right about that in a way. But I think that it is really difficult for us to understand what is the long-term effect of the pandemic. And it's just like, was this a one-off or will this happen again.

The next question is from the line of Jayesh Gandhi from Harshad Gandhi Securities.

Hello? Am I audible, sir?

Yes. Absolutely.

Sir, my question is also on the industry only. While the current market size according to you is closer to INR 1,500 crores, INR 1,600-odd crores. Do we see it going to INR 2,500 crores, INR 2,600 crores in next 5 years. While our annual report generally says we will -- I mean, the industry will grow by 10% to 15%. Do you see that coming say post -- say after this year, maybe when everything normalizes. Do you see it going to INR 2,500 crores, INR 2,600 crores? And can we increase our market share here?

So in the past, the market size has doubled about every 6, 7 years from -- so if you look at, say, 2007 to now the market size has gone from about INR 400 crores to about INR 1,500 crores or something. So again, like I said, it's a very strange thing because this last 18 months has been very unpredictable. And nobody is exactly sure as to whether there's going to be a third wave or not and whether there's a permanent damage to the economy or it will bounce back. But I think if the economy continues as what it was before, then I don't see why the growth will not continue at the rate of 10%, 15% a year easily for the next 10 -- like I said all the way till we hit $5,000, $6,000 per capita.

So Mr. Gandhi, also if we do a quick calculation, even if we grow at a CAGR of 11% for the next 5 years, we will reach INR 2,500 crores. So I think that's quite achievable. So a 10% to 15% CAGR is achievable once the economy normalizes.

And sir, one more thing. In the first caller's question, you were talking something about per capita income. And -- I mean, you were relating our growth with the per capita income. Can you repeat that?

Yes. So basically, as the economy -- the per capita GDP goes to about $5,000 to $6,000 per capita, the coding and marking industry typically grows at about twice that of GDP or twice that of manufacturing growth, if you will.

So only beyond $5,000 per capita it grows at, say 2x?

No, no, up to $5,000 to $6,000, it grows at about double that of the GDP...

And how about beyond that? So if -- say once we are, I mean, $5,000 per capita, how do we grow beyond that?

Yes. So once it hits $5,000 to $6,000, it grows at about 1.5x GDP to about $10,000 to $11,000. And then post $10,000, $11,000, the experience in other countries has been that it was at about the same rate as GDP or other manufacturing growth. So when I mean GDP, I mean I'm talking about manufacturing growth and all these situations.

The next question is from the line of Kunal from Vallum India Discovery Fund.

I wanted to understand the potential of these new printers, which we have launched. So I just wanted to understand in terms of your TTO, TTJ and high-res printers. So I wanted to understand how big could be the market for these printers in terms of units over the next 3 to 4 years. And in terms of our competitors, I mean, how big are they in these products? So yes, that's my first question.

Yes. So I think that as far as the global market goes, it's more sophisticated than India. So in India, the CIJ will be about 65%, 70% of the revenue of the overall market, sort of INR 1,500 crores; say, INR 1,000 crores to INR 1,100 crores would -- INR 1,000 crores plus would be the CIJ market and maybe INR 500 crores would be all the other products, whereas the broad -- the CIJ is about 40% of the market of about $7 billion, and the rest is other products. So we're just expecting that the same trends will follow in India as what they do abroad because in the end, the bigger companies are very tuned to what the international packaging outlook is and then they adopt the same guidelines as what their parent companies or the lean companies abroad do in their field. And it sort of percolates with a few years' gap. So the same thing we're expecting here that as the market goes from INR 1,500 crores to INR 2,500 crores, the CIJ will continue to grow maybe from INR 1,000 crores to say INR 1,500 crores, INR 1,400 crores or something. But as a percentage, it's a non-CIJ market that will grow faster. And maybe instead of the market being 65% or 2/3 CIJ and 1/3 other products, like 60%, 65% CIJ, it will be maybe more like 55%, 56% CIJ and 45%, 46% other products.

Even their sales mix would be the same, which means that even they would have 65%, 70% CIJ sales, which is what we have?

It's similar for all of us, except for I think Markem has a very strong TTO sales. So it could be -- so we all have our own speciality. We are very strong in the thermal inkjet, Markem-Imaje is a bit stronger in thermal transfer and Videojet is a bit stronger in laser. So -- but yes, we are the strongest in thermal inkjet and high-resolution printers.

Got it. Got it. And in terms of the value of these printers, I mean, in terms of when you compare it -- these -- the cost of -- I mean, the cost to the customer for these printers for the device as well as in terms of the consumables, what is the difference between these new generation printers and the old CIJ printers in terms of the value of the device and the cost of the consumable, which the consumer has to consume. And in terms of the consumable, which the consumer is going to use for the right life of the printer, is it any different? I mean, do these devices require less amount of consumables and at the same time they have a higher value for the unit -- I mean, for the device. Or is it the same ratio? I mean how would you...

So the device value depends on which configuration you take. So it could be lower than CIJ or it could be higher also, it just really depends on what exactly you want with the printer or the exact specification of the printer you're choosing. As far as the cost per print goes, normally the non-CIJ printers in our experiences are more expensive to run than the CIJ printers, but because of improved reliability, they prefer. So that's the thing. There is an important mix up difference between the CIJ printers in general versus a lot of the non-CIJ printers. The non-CIJ printers have less service. So that's why customers prefer them because they don't have to rely so much on our service. And so they feel if there's a breakdown, they can just replace the part themselves, which is swap out the printer very easily themselves. They don't have to rely on us. So the consumers' revenue is higher in the non-CIJ business, but normally on a per print basis -- it also depends on the type of application we are selling in, and the service revenue is quite low.

Got it. Got it. So would it be fair to say that over a lifetime for the same industry and for the same, let's say, for the same set of -- same quantum of usage for a same application and same quantum, same time of usage, the aggregate revenue from a new generation printer of these 3 new generation printers and a CIJ printer, the new generation printers would have a higher revenue per unit including the value of the device and the consumable and the service?

So for the same application, yes. But what we've seen is that new printers create new applications also. So a lot of times where the CIJ printers are being used, people tend to use the CIJ printer, but then certain industries like pharmaceuticals, say people for the thermal inkjet printer, and they were not even using any type of printer previously. So that's an expansion of the market and snack foods also, for example, a lot of people were using older printers like thermal ink roll coders, and they switched directly from thermal coders directly to thermal transfer printers. So sometimes it doesn't go -- it's not necessary that it goes from there to the CIJ and then to the next technology. Sometimes people are swapping. So in milk, people, for example, in the dairy industry, they use embossing. So if you see your milk product, they use a pretty cheap roller coder, which the ink sort of spreads, sort of bluish or violet colored ink. And then sometimes you just emboss the pouch. And now you see that some of them go directly to thermal transfer, thermal inkjet, they don't go to CIJ. So if it's a swap for swap, where a CIJ was being used and you converted to non-CIJ, you'll get a higher aggregate revenue normally. It also depends on the volume. So if the volume is quite low, the service revenue actually becomes quite important to us for those applications. And if the volumes are higher, the consumers' revenue is more important as a driver of revenue from that print for the aftermarket business. So where the volume is quite low because these new generation printers don't really require much service at all, so it could be that it's cheaper to run. But in standard applications, which are higher volume, we may make more revenue per printer of this.

Got it, sir. Just final question from my end. I wanted to understand, in terms of the technological -- I mean, is there a possibility that over the next 4 to 5 years, the CIJ printers could go through some sort of technological obsolescence and -- or do you imagine using this -- I mean, do you imagine customers using these technologies, let's say, for the foreseeable decade? And then in terms of your actual installed base of 14,000 printers, how many printers move out of their useful life? And how many -- in any given year, I mean, what is the annual life, average life? How many printers are out of the useful life any given year?

Yes. So I'll just take it up 1 question at a time because it would be difficult. So in general, from our base, about 7 to 10 years is the useful life of our printer. So it depends on the age of the base also. So if you sold more printers recently, there's less printers that go into obsolescence. Printers that are between 5 to 10 years old, normally they have a major breakdown or some new requirement has come and that's when customers phase them out. So Rahul will maybe give you just a better number on that exactly.

Yes. So roughly, we have about 15% to 17%, which over a period do get either upgraded or replaced or stuff like that. So whatever our 14,000 installed base that we're talking is about the active printers which are there in the market. Sold printers are close to 20,000 printers, but active printers is 14,000, so that obsolescence is taken care.

Yes. And of 14,000, you can assume anywhere between 10% to 15%, depending on the age and the mix of the printers will get obsolete every year. And the second part of your question, I missed that out. So -- first part of your question, I would say.

I think let others also ask because -- you come back in the queue.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [ Siddharth Mehta, ] an individual investor.

I understand we're going through the pandemic and it's a difficult time, so I appreciate your efforts to do whatever is possible. In your investor presentation in the second last slide, one sentence caught my eye where it says we have some new products that are likely to give us exponential growth. And also, are there any new products coming in for the pharma industry because that seems to be growing very rapidly.

Yes. So specifically for the pharmaceutical industry, our thermal inkjet ranges very comprehensively addressed towards that industry. And we've got some solvent inks for our thermal inkjet, which actually work quite well on that specific application. So yes, I mean, that's the -- so we've got a good set of products. We've not actually been able to meet customers too much in the last few months. So it's been more of repeat orders from our existing customers or where we had already cases previously. But I'm hoping that this could be a pickup for us going forward. That's the first part. As far as -- I mean, all the products that we've -- we're talking about, they are also like evolutions of them. So what's happened is we've not got the full sales benefit of these products -- of the new generations of products because of certain reasons. So because of the pandemic, it sort of stalled us a little bit. So we are expecting that because we had a bunch of strong cases before and even now that we should be able to get -- and we've done the groundwork of proving the printers and establishing their performance. And we are quite confident that we should get some larger orders now on these new generation printers.

Okay. All right. Do you feel that given that there's so much promise that it would be worth to maybe strengthen our marketing and sales and get some more aggressive and more capable or experienced people in that department?

Actually, we've got a very strong sales team. We actually took some of the time that we had available to us in the first lockdown and even this lockdown, or the second surge. We were actually working from home and we couldn't really travel too much to the field because even customers were unwilling to meet and neither we wanted to risk our own people. So what happened is we did a lot of stuff like just the groundwork of cleaning databases, contacting customers, updating a lot of information, sort of setting ourselves up for the next few months for the -- hopefully, for the coming year. So we have been strengthening that up. We've got a very strong system and a good team. It's just -- and we have, I think, totally almost like Rahul has the exact number, we have like 140-odd sales and service -- sales people and managers and something like 200 something engineers -- 220 engineers.

Yes. Right.

So we actually have a lot of people and our service network has widely been acknowledged by everyone. I think the best in the business right now. So we are quite -- very proud of our service team.

Yes. And just in terms of our sales that you mentioned, what percentage of your profits do you think comes from consumables?

Rahul, do you want to take this?

So yes, as we've already -- always maintained that consumables is our main driver for profit because in printers we don't really make -- so our gross margin continues to remain at about 80% on the consumable.

No, I mean of the overall profit, what percentage of the overall profit is from consumables, do you think?

Generally, we don't have a breakup like that. But yes, consumables is dominant.

It would be more than 50%.

The next question is from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor & Company.

Saket, I remember you were there at the AGM as well.

Yes, sir. I was there, sir. Sir, firstly, sir, about this mask division part of the story, how is this unfolding for us in terms of revenue and profitability as this would be the full year. And with the second wave also and even now with things about the third one, so how have we positioned, I think INR 10 crores to INR 11 crores have been invested in this segment. So if you could give some ballpark figure regarding the revenue and the bottom line we are expecting?

So I think we've recovered most of the cost of this investment and that was our original target was. It was, like I said, it was not overall [indiscernible] We did invest some more money recently. That was just to ensure that we get all the -- because of [indiscernible] Control Print, so we had to have all the perfect lab equipment, the best of everything, which is what we've done. But at the same time, we also have, right, for the FDA and the NIOSH certification you already have that for the FFE. So the certification process for all of the mask actually cost a lot of money, the auditing and so on. So obviously, we want to be absolutely top of the line in whatever we do. So that's where we spend some money. But like I said, the idea was not -- it's not -- I mean, it's not like the main area of business focus. So it was to do it -- we were confident we'll recover it. We had some customers where we were originally supposed to export to them across the board, but that didn't work out because of the export ban, but it's all okay now.

No, sir, but just what is the understanding now for this year? We have taken depreciation benefits and all, but how is this division going to contribute in terms of top line and bottom line? That was my question. I could -- I understand what you were trying to explain.

To be honest, we did it. Obviously, if there is some extra thing and we are always there to support with our CSR and everything and also, of course, to help cover that we'll continue selling it, the mask, on the side. But it's not -- I mean, it's not been a focus or a factor in revenue, thinking it might contribute a few crores.

Yes. Just to add to what Mr. Shiva is saying, Saketji, we would like all of you all to just keep the focus on the coding and marking, which has been our main business. And mask is considered as a bonus. Like second wave, obviously, is not predictable; third wave is also not certain, so...

I can affirm that whatever we'll lose in the coding and marking business with the next wave and the wave after that will be much more than any amount we'll make up through the masks or anything, so...

Yes. That's right. So we don't want...

Just because we want the best health for the country and our employees.

So even going forward, coding and marking will be our main business segment. Mask, we don't want much focus to be on that.

Right, sir. And sir, we did other income also for this quarter with a sale of flat. What led to that, sir? And does -- is it a precursor to our investment in Liberty Chemical also with the market improving or what kind of indication you can give with the sale of property.

No, see, that facility was not being utilized by us since Nalagarh and Guwahati had already come up over the last 10 years. So it was just an asset which was lying around, and we thought that it's better to monetize it rather than -- so we are making some investments in offices like we're taking an office in Calcutta or we're looking for some other office space, which is on rent, we didn't feel that our Vasai facility was being utilized at all.

Yes. And we invested in Nalagarh also. Of course, the whole work got held up because of the COVID pandemic, and we had some issues with the completion. It just took some much more time than expected because it stopped in between. We haven't...

It's better to consolidate, Saketji, rather than just spread out and not having any utility of that asset. Nothing to do with real estate or our cash flows.

Correct, sir. And net realizations for this property, sir, how much it was?

So most of it was already at, written down value was very low, so about INR 3,15,00,000 is the profit that we made. So you can add a few more lakhs. So it was less than INR 4 crores, around INR 4 crores.

The next question is from the line of [ Rawal Koti, ] an individual investor.

Congratulations on a good set of numbers. So yes, I have 2 questions, okay? Beginning with one, so have been tracking like investing -- invested in a company for a very long time. So like a couple of years back, you had done a QIP. So just wanted to know like what is the plan with that amount. So is it still lying and do you have any plans for that, what is it?

We've explained it in the previous calls also, QIP was about 3 years ago, then we had some other business opportunities, and we were looking for investments with some other R&D such laboratory, but that hasn't materialized and the money has been utilized in the company. And wherever it was in excess, we've given it out as dividends to the shareholders. So as of now, we have been working debt-free for the last 3 years and probably that money is helping us [ on that side. ]

Okay. You're saying that it's been -- it has already been utilized whatever had been raised, right?

For business purposes it was raised for maybe for some other growth opportunities. But since that things materialize, we are continuing to utilize it in the regular business.

Okay. Okay. So because as I remember, it was being like craze to go abroad and setup of something, right? So that is not on the table, right, as I understand?

So we did do our research, but then with the pandemic and anything, we're happy that we didn't go down that route because it would have just wasted money of the company. But as of now, when we get an opportunity, we will utilize because we have available cash flows with the company. So it's not that the plan is deferred for cash flows, but we will wait for better times.

Okay. And the second question was on the printer, okay? So when you say you have a printer base of more than 13,000, so if I remember correctly, right, previously, you had mentioned that there are some printers which were used in the cement industry, which were not using the consumables produced by us, okay? Does this count including -- includes those printers or it excludes those printers?

No, we continue to supply in the cement industry, in fact even in previous year and the current year, we have been winning some long-term contracts as well as some contracts which we had lost 3 years back, I'm told by my team even that is, 1 or 2 of them have come back in our fold. So we do continue to supply actively to the cement industry and the printers includes those.

Yes. So if I remember correctly, when I attended like a year back, a couple of years back, okay, that you mentioned like one of the team members like mentioned saying that okay, they have been using the consumables produced by someone else like counterfeit consumables. So because of that, in the cement industry, you were facing some headwinds. So just wanted to know that whether that is still continuing and whether that those number of printers, which were affected by this is being counted in this part of 13,000 or is it excluding that? That's what my question was.

So -- no, no. So I mentioned that this 13,000, 14,000 printers are active printers, wherever our consumable is not being used, we are not including it in this number. Wherever even in the cement industry, our printers are active or we are gaining the installed base, that gets included. So this includes only the active printer, not the ones which are discontinued.

The next question is from the line of Swechha Jain from ANS Wealth.

Sir, I just have a couple of follow-up questions. Sir, one was, I think you mentioned the typical printer life is 5 to 7 years.

About 7 to 10 years.

Okay, 7 to 10 years. So sir, what typically happens to the printer after the life cycle. I mean, the spare part becomes -- do they come back to us or they are sold in an unorganized market?

Normally, these printers we scrap them or the customer scraps them. So because there's a hydraulic segment in it and the electronics normally get outdated, so we can only support for that long. And the hydraulics and the rest of it, obviously, because they have got ink inside them these aggressive inks for many years, so it sort of wears it out slightly, almost like a car which is beyond a certain number of kilometers.

Understood. Understood. And sir, also in terms of consumables, is there an unorganized sector for consumables also? Or I just want to understand that once we sell a printer to a client, is the customer bound to take the consumables only from us or you would also have other opportunities?

Yes. So there is a -- like a large part of the unorganized market is essentially people who deal in consumables for the 4 OEMs, 4 major OEMs. That's, say, like a certain part of the market. And yes, we implemented an RFID chip in our own printer and all the ink bottles, And that's why 1 -- I think this was in CIJ printer specifically, I'm talking about, I think it was 2017 or something, maybe June...

Yes, in the third quarter.

So something like for 3.5, 4 years, we've been quite protected because that, and it's definitely helped us. But before that, maybe 25%, 30% of our printers used to use pirated or spurious inks. And I mean, even 1 investor did call up, so like most of the printers we sold in the cement industry also are using spurious ink. So yes -- and those printers weren't protected and it's not easy to change the architecture of that vendor to protect those new printers over there. So we're putting protection in all our new generation printers as and when we redesign the printer for the -- so normally, when we make a model, it lasts about 7, 8 years and then...

Okay. So sir, when we put the RFID chip, how -- like so you can't use any other products, but our product, is it?

Yes. Yes.

Okay. Okay, perfect. And also, like I just want to understand when a customer is setting up its plant or whatever, at what level do we come in? Are the printers installed at the later stage of the entire plant comes up or from day 1 do we supply these printers or if it's a parallel process. Also, once the printer is installed, they how easy or difficult for the customer is to switch from us to a competitor?

Yes. So the first part of the thing is, normally, it depends from customer to customer. So there are 2 types of switches that happen. One is, of course, factories that are built are normally lasting for a pretty long period of time, whereas the printers itself have a life of, like I said, 7 to 10 years. So printers do get phased out and replaced multiple times in the life of the factory or the production line and normally customers also upgrade their production line multiple times within that factory. And when it's a project stage, so when I'm setting up a greenfield project or a large brownfield expansion, normally customers then plan the printers, the requirements, everything much in advance, whereas if it's just a minor expansion, it's just an additional line, which is just a copy of the existing things, then people tend to order more towards just a few weeks before the commissioning of the line, not that much in advance. So that is specifically regarding -- as far as the switching costs go, obviously, there is a certain amount of hassle because the operators get used to a certain interface of the printer, the maintenance cycle and other parameters of each printer are different. So it's a bit like switching from an iPhone to an android to a, I don't know, whatever some sort of other phone. So it's not that difficult, but it is problematic. Then again, for most customers, it's also about stocking multiple types of consumables and fluids in stock versus 1 type of fluid or rather 1 type of ink from 1 type of supplier. It's about negotiating AMCs, filters, stocking those and spares from multiple suppliers versus 1 supplier. So most customers tend to prefer 1 or maximum 2 suppliers. And a lot of the large customers will have only like 1 supplier in 1 factory and maybe another supplier in another factory and so on. So it's -- yes, it's not that you cannot switch, but you won't switch for a small reason. You switch if it's like -- it's sufficiently -- I mean, if you're having obviously a problem with production downtime, you will switch or if there is some reasonable reason to switch. But the switching costs are not very small, but they're not huge either.

The next question is from the line of Namit Mehta from KC Capital.

Rahul, Shiva, congratulations on another good quarter. Just a couple of questions from myself. So one, I'm just wondering if you can tell us a little bit about directionally how the order sizes are moving in terms of printers? Are you seeing a lot larger orders now that you've developed more and more referenceability, you are at a larger scale today. Are you seeing that order size change? Or is it roughly in line with what it used to be?

To be honest -- Shiva, you please go ahead.

Yes. So normally, what you see is that the frequency of orders increases as you become bigger. Like I said, except for large greenfield or brownfield expansions, customers don't order like printers normally in large quantities. They order like 2, 4 printers, 8 printers, 12 printers at a time, depending on how many lines they have and what their requirements are. So large orders normally happen when something like a dairy, which already has a lot of established lines, and then they decide that they want to start printing all their lines and then they say, okay, we need 40 printers at a go. And that, of course, happens. And that's mainly because of the factories themselves have become bigger, not -- but I'd say like what you tend to see is that the frequency of orders increases faster most of the time. So even established companies rather than going for everything in a big bang, they tend to order more frequently and cover the new application requirements that way.

Understood. That's helpful. And can you also help me with the mix between printers and consumables and spares this quarter? And if you could point out whether that's why the EBITDA margins are a little [indiscernible] [01:06:39] this quarter versus the past year?

So yes, on the printer front, we did about 16% to 18%; consumables was 48% to 50%, it was on the lower side; spares and service around 23%, 24%; and mask was about 12%.

Got it. So I guess once the consumable share increases, you would expect EBITDA...

Yes, yes. As we've always discussed once the consumable is anything about 55%, we definitely will have much stronger [ profit, ] there's no doubt on that.

Yes. I think that there was just less manufacturing this year. So -- I mean less rather this quarter. So maybe the ink sales were a bit down because of that. But definitely May was -- and to a less extent, June, was quite below our expectations.

Perfect. Just last question if I can squeeze in. If you can -- I know this business at the end of the day is a service business. If you can just talk a little bit as to how different processes and systems you kind of put in place to ensure high quality of service over long periods of time. I know the SAP is one example of that. If you can just talk a little bit more about that?

Yes. So I think first, we've got a strong training program in place. Each engineer has like we've got 6 levels to assign for each service engineer for us. So when you join, you have to pass 3 levels within 6 months and unfortunately, if you fail 1 level, you have to leave, if you don't cross all 3 levels within 6 months. So that's the first part. So that each engineer has to be at a certain basic speed where they can take care of 80% plus of all the breakdown calls within a 6-month period. So the first part of the -- the most important part of our customer satisfaction is our training program. After that, of course, the [engineer's gains becomes ] slower. We also have a brush up test once every year to make sure that the engineer has not lost knowledge. And also regular training. So there are new models, new printers that they're not comfortable on, they get that new knowledge, and that's -- it's integrated into our testing procedure. So that happens every year for every engineer for that level. And then the senior engineers go on to a Level 4, Level 5, Level 6 training. So that's the core behind our customer satisfaction and our service team. And the -- of course, the SAP is there to control every aspect of the service, the returns, the parts, movement, of course, and people enter all sorts of data like the printer, the number of breakdown calls, the repeat analysis. So we get a lot of data. If we know that the same printer's broken down again within 30 days of a breakdown call, it sends an alert and then the senior manager is supposed to look into it and find out why a second break. We have those types of processes and tickets in place, but I'd say like the fundamental benefit is 2 things. One is the training. And the second is [ that give away ] widespread service network. Like I think we have something like 240-odd -- 250 engineers across India. And we're not too far from the customer in almost any part of the country. So the service time and it also makes the engineer's life much more comfortable because almost all his calls are local calls. So I think that, that widespread reach combined with strong training, which is not easy to do when you have a distributed service network. I think that combination is the part that really enables us to provide a high quality of service. And then, of course, on that, we have an in-site sales team and service team, which call up the customers randomly, they follow up to make sure that the customer's satisfied, take feedback from the customer and so on. But of course, we have from a technical viewpoint, also, like I said, we have some laws to make sure that if the number of technical failures in a printer is more than expected, then it gets alerted and then all the way it's down from our service manager, our national service manager to our national sales and service head and then even to me. So there are multiple escalations that will happen in that particular process.

The next question is from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor & Company.

I was talking about this Videojet case part of the story. That is done and dusted or anything more? We have done some provisions earlier? Hello?

Yes, yes. So no, there's status quo on the case, we've already explained whatever we have seen previously. The courts in Mumbai are not very active, it's all working virtual. So as of now, there is no further update on that front.

But we have done our provisions and all I think so...

As per the court's direction, we've already given a guarantee, bank guarantee to the court.

Right, sir. And sir, one of the participants did spoke about this, the main threat with this industry parts, business can grow depending upon the growth in the industrial segment and all. But other than that, in the hindsight, what other technological advancement or things can change wherein the CIJ printers, which are the dominant printers can be, god forbid, they become redundant in the -- with the phase of technology. So I just wanted that answer -- that question to be answered, sir.

Yes. I think you've already explained. Like even right now if you look at it, we have a suite of products. And like I said, abroad the market is already more mature. So when we're talking about that $7 billion market size abroad, we will see that CIJ is only about 40% of that in the overall size, whereas in India, it's about 65%, 67%. So we're expecting the same gradual evolution to take place in India also, and we're seeing that. CIJ must have been 80% of the market, I think, like 5 years, 6 years ago, maybe more than that. So the same thing will happen here. It's a gradual change that will happen, and the market is evolving. So CIJ is not going to go anywhere because for many applications it is superior to any other printer out there. But for some applications, specific printers are superior. And we'll see -- as the customers become more mature, they'll go from -- more from mix of products depending on the application and the line.

Very correct, sir. And in the AGM, yesterday, sir, you told about this payment of royalty for Internet of Things of [ type ] printers. So what is the aspect behind it? And how much is the royalty that we are paying? I think we are unable to launch the product. But we will be launching something this year it was communicated.

No, no, we [indiscernible] royalty that we pay our partners, KBA coding, and -- we are just saying that the Internet of Things is built in some of our new printers, that's all we are saying. But we have been unable to launch some of our new models because of the pandemic. So it's a bit stuck up. We're also having a shortage of chips right now, so we are focusing on existing models rather than new models that we don't have.

Correct, sir. And sir, how differentiated are they when you are coming -- speaking about it. What are the key differentiations on this product? How are they different from the ones -- they will be catering to the same industry I think so?

Yes, yes. So it's just a -- it's a next generation model. So suppose you had a printer before, you had to connect it with a serial cable to your computer, now -- it's LAN cable. So yes, with the LAN. Now it's wireless or it's blue tooth, maybe it's faster, it's [indiscernible]. It's the same type of thing fundamentally. You're still printing, whatever, 3 lines on a bottle of water that's passing by and so on. But it's a bit smaller, a bit faster, a bit like touch screen and all those types of benefits that are there. So like -- so it's not a huge benefit. There are some improvements everywhere, less cleaning, a little bit less maintenance cycle and so on, but it's not -- I mean it's an upgrade over the old printer, it's not a change.

Correct. And sir, board has been very kind and has been very liberal in fact, sir, with the dividend distribution. And I think, sir, dividend distribution policy will also come in the annual. But sir, with the changes in the taxation, this is creating more of a higher taxation at the recipient side and you being also the largest shareholder is also facing the same. So sir, have the Board looked also in terms of buyback as one of the more way of giving the cash back and also creating more value for the shareholders with increased market capitalization for the organization?

Saketji, the Board will decide as and when things come up. We can't answer market sensitivity.

The next question is from the line of Swechha Jain from ANS Wealth.

Sir, just a few couple of follow-up questions. So one was in terms of strategy, how do we see ourselves in the next 5 years in terms of revenue and what are the key steps that would lead us best. So could you throw some light on it, sir?

Yes. So I think Swetha (sic) [ Swechha ] the next -- I mean, looking at the medium term, I think we've got a strong suite of products. Like I said, we also have 1, 2 printers, which we are phasing in and changing one of our core models in the CIJ. So our focus is essentially to be as efficient as possible over the next few years. In fact, the pandemic actually got in a very inopportune time for us because it sort of actually took our momentum away at a time when we were growing faster and capturing more market share. And what happened is when the customers have less time to meet you face-to-face, the tendency is to just go with repeat orders on the existing equipment that you have. So if the market is more back to normal and there's less issues, and again, I'm expecting that considering the edge we have in certain products, especially with the high-resolution printers and the thermal inkjet printer, that we can gain strong market share there. And in the CIJ, we have been doing well. But overall, I think if we can do that, then we can have a strong growth. So our focus is more on increasing our market share. Like I said, again, our industry doesn't allow for large market share swings unless somebody has got some really major issue that happens to them. So it's about grinding out that 1%, 2% market share gain every year for the next 5 years. And of course, like I said, the overall market size is something we can't predict because it's going to depend on the overall industrial growth in India.

I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Karan Bhatelia for closing comments.

Thank you, Rahul. Thank you, Shiva for answering all the queries. With this, we conclude the call. Any closing remarks you want to make Rahul, Shiva?

I just wanted to thank everyone for coming. We really appreciate your time. I think so the second surge took everyone by surprise, and the most important thing is that, [ that is ] absolutely safe and sound. I think that's the most important lesson from the pandemic. So that's my sincere thanks to everyone for dedicating your time for the results.

Thank you, everybody and best of luck.

Thank you. With this, we conclude the call. Thank you.

Thank you. On behalf of Asian Markets Securities, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.