Cora Gold Limited (CORA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Welcome all. My name is Ed Bowie. I'm an independent nonexecutive director and Chair of the Board of Directors of Cora Gold Limited. And before we begin the formal proceedings for today's meeting, I would like to hand over to Craig Banfield, Cora's CFO and company Secretary, who will explain some of the basic functions of the conference call service we're using today.

Thanks, Ed. There are a number of -- is that [indiscernible]?

It's letting more people in...

[indiscernible].

There are a number of functions that could be changed within Zoom's conferencing service. However, in the interest of keeping things simple for today's meeting, the only function participants really need to be aware of is that of muting and unmuting. For those who've joined us via the Internet, you can mute and unmute your connection by toggling the microphone icon shown on the screen of your PC, tablet or smartphone. As the host of today's meeting, I too can mute and unmute participants' connections. Should you wish to override this at any time, then you may again toggle the microphone icon on your individual screen. For those who've joined us by dial-up, you may be able to mute and unmute your microphone according to the hardware you're using. Finally, I'd ask anybody using their webcam, which I can't see anybody using one, that when the meeting formally starts, you may wish to turn off your video function. This can be toggled on and off by clicking on the webcam or camera icon on your screen. Turning off the video will increase bandwidth and may result in improved sound quality for all, but I can't see anybody with their video on, so that's [ good ]. Back to you, Ed.

Thank you, Craig. I would now like to introduce you to the other [ directors and management ] of the company here with us today. We have Bert Monro, CEO and director; and Paul Quirk, nonexecutive director. I'd now like to ask any shareholders attending today's meeting to declare their presence and the number of shares they hold. In order to do this, you may need to unmute your connection. Alternatively, those who have joined us using Zoom's conference call software may wish to use the built-in chat function to confirm their name and the number of shares held.

So if I -- just in order that I see them on the screen. If I read out the name that's appearing, if you want to make yourself known and to tell me how many shares you're voting today, then I can take a note. So I can see [ Peter HGF. Peter ], do you want to vote today? No. I'll take that as a no. I can see an [ SS SD ]. If you'd like to vote today, make yourself known. I can see a [ Sriram Maddali ]. Would you like to vote today? I can see [ Susie Geliher ]. And [ Susie ], you don't want to vote.

No. Just a guest.

Thank you. [ Juliet Dalumpines ]? And S&P user [indiscernible]. [ Olivier Gachoud? Olivier ]...

Not voter.

Do you want to vote today? Sorry...

No, no, I don't want to vote. I don't want to vote.

Okay, thank you, [ Olivier ]. And I can see a [ Harry Lockwood. Harry ], would you like to vote today?

No. I'm just participating.

Okay, thank you. And then I can see a telephone number which ends 8866 -- if there's anybody who wants to vote. No. So I think that's quite everybody.

Great. Thank you. In the unlikely event that we lose connection during the meeting, we'll allow 5 minutes for attendees to rejoin and resume the meeting. And with the time now shortly after 12:00 U.K. time on Wednesday, the 28th of June 2023, and with proper notice of its Annual General Meeting of Cora Gold Limited having been given on 19th of May 2023, in accordance with the company's articles of association, and with a quorum being present, I hereby declare the AGM open. I will ask Cora's company secretary, Craig Banfield, to please minute proceedings of this AGM. The Board of Directors believes it's in the interests of -- allowing as many shareholders as possible to attend these arrangements to hold the AGM both physically and online. In the notice of the 2023 AGM, we've requested shareholders to submit any questions they have by e-mail ahead of today's meeting, all right? These questions will be addressed after the close of formal proceedings of today's AGM. The Board of Directors welcome communications with shareholders. Queries can always be submitted by e-mail to [email protected]. Further contact details can be found at the end of the company's news releases and on the company's website. And so now to the ordinary business of today's AGM. In accordance with the company's articles of association, an ordinary resolution means a resolution passed by a simple majority of half of the shareholders who being entitled to do so vote in person or by proxy at the general meeting [ of the company ]. The following resolutions are due for consideration at this AGM and, if thought fit, then by ordinary resolution be passed. The first resolution for consideration is to receive the company's annual accounts for the financial year ended the 31st December 2022, together with the directors' report, independent auditor's report on these accounts. May I have someone propose this resolution?

[ I propose ].

And may I have someone second this resolution?

[ I'll second ].

I confirm the following votes cast in respect of shareholders who appointed the Chair of the meeting as their proxy, 191,719,871 for and 0 against. With no shareholders in attendance and voting at this meeting, I hereby declare this resolution to be passed by ordinary resolution of the shareholders. The second resolution for consideration is to reappoint PKF Littlejohn LLP as the company's auditor to hold office from the conclusion of this meeting until the conclusion of the next meeting, at which annual accounts are laid before the company, and to authorize the directors to determine the remuneration of the auditor. May I please have someone to propose this resolution?

[ I propose ].

May I have, please, someone second this resolution?

I second that.

I confirm the following votes cast in respect of shareholders who appointed the Chair of this meeting as their proxy, 191,719,871 for and 20,000 against. With no shareholders in attendance voting at this meeting, I hereby declare this resolution to be passed by ordinary resolution of shareholders. The third resolution for consideration is to reelect Andrew Chubb as a director of the company. May I please have someone to propose this resolution?

[ Proposed ].

And may I please have someone second this resolution?

I'll second it.

I confirm the following votes cast in respect of shareholders who appointed the Chair of this meeting as their proxy, 191,710,754 for, 29,117 against. With no shareholders in attendance voting at this meeting, I hereby declare this resolution to be passed by ordinary resolution of the shareholders. Fourth resolution for consideration is to reelect David Pelham as a director of the company. May I please have someone propose this resolution?

I propose.

And may I please have someone to second this resolution?

I'll second.

I confirm the following votes cast in respect of shareholders who appointed the Chair of the meeting as their proxy, 191,710,753 for and 29,117 against. With no shareholders voting at this meeting, I hereby declare this resolution to be passed by ordinary resolution of the shareholders. The fifth resolution for consideration is to reelect Paul Quirk as a director of the company. May I please have someone propose this resolution?

I propose.

May I please have someone to second this resolution?

I'll second.

I confirm the following votes cast in respect of the shareholders who appointed the Chair of this meeting as their proxy, 190,710,753 for, 29,117 against. With no shareholders voting at this meeting, I hereby declare this resolution to be passed by ordinary resolution of the shareholders. The sixth resolution for consideration is the directors be generally and unconditionally authorized to exercise all powers of the company to allot shares in the company, to grant rights to subscribe for or convert any security into shares of the company, such shares and rights to subscribe for or to convert any security into shares of the company being relevant shares: one, in respect of any exercise of options granted pursuant to the company's share option scheme; and two, in addition to, one, up to a maximum of 75 million ordinary shares in aggregate, provided that this authority shall, unless renewed, varied or revoked by the company, expire on the commencement of the Annual General Meeting of the company to be held in 2024, save that the company may, before such expiry, make offers or enter into agreements which would or might require relevant shares to be allotted or granted after such expiry and the directors may allot relevant shares in pursuance of such offers or agreements notwithstanding the authority conferred by this resolution has expired, and all unexercised authorities previously granted by (sic) [ to ] the directors to allot relevant shares be and are hereby revoked. May I please have someone to propose this resolution?

I propose.

May I please have someone to second this resolution?

I'll second.

I confirm the following votes cast in respect of shareholders who appointed the Chair of this meeting as their proxy, 190,671,179 for, 39,117 against. With no shareholders voting at this meeting, I hereby declare that this resolution to be passed by ordinary resolution of the shareholders. And now for the special business at this AGM. In accordance with the company's articles of association, a special resolution means a resolution passed by [ a majority of 3/4 ] of the shareholders who being entitled to do so vote in person or by proxy at a general meeting of the company. The following resolution is due for consideration at this AGM and, if thought fit, then by special resolution be passed. Seventh resolution for consideration is the directors be generally empowered to allot equity securities for cash pursuant to the authority conferred by ordinary resolution 6, by way of sale of treasury shares, as if the right of preemption did not apply to any such allotment, provided that this authority shall be limited to: a, the allotment of any number of ordinary shares following the exercise of rights under the company's share option scheme; b, the allotment of up to an additional 75 million ordinary shares, representing 20.26% of the number of ordinary shares in issue on the date of this notice of 2023 Annual General Meeting, to enable the directors of the company to expeditiously, and without incurring undue costs, undertake a limited equity raise or acquisition should the opportunity present itself. And provided this power shall expire on the commencement of the Annual General Meeting of the company to be held in 2024 unless renewed, varied or revoked by the company prior to or on that date, save that the company may, before that date -- the date of such expiry, make offers or agreements which would or might require equity securities to be allotted after such expiry and the directors may allot equity securities in pursuance of any such offers or agreements notwithstanding that the power conferred by this resolution has expired. May I please have someone to propose this resolution?

I propose.

May I please have someone to second the resolution?

I'll second.

I confirm the following votes cast in respect of the shareholders who appointed the Chair of this meeting as their proxy, 190,671,180 for and 39,117 against. With no shareholders in attendance voting at this meeting, I hereby declare this resolution to be passed by a special resolution of the shareholders. That concludes the formal part of today's proceedings, and therefore, with no further business, I hereby declare the AGM closed. As mentioned earlier, we have asked shareholders to submit questions in advance of today's meeting. As such, I would now like to hand over to Cora's CEO, Bert Monro, who will answer the questions, which will be read to him by Craig Banfield. Gentlemen?

Thanks, Ed.

Thanks, Ed.

Thank you very much. Actually one question I've got from a shareholder is actually from [ Harry Lockwood ], who's with us. So [ Harry ], do you want me to read it out, or would you like to pose it yourself? [ Harry ]...

I prefer it to be read out.

Okay, I'll read it then. So thanks, Ed. We received just one question from a shareholder by the name of [ Harry Lockwood ], who asks -- I guess this is addressed to you then, Bert. How reasonable is it to assume that construction at Sanankoro will start in 2023, considering the current suspension on the issue of mining permits in Mali and the expected time delay between applying for the permit and receiving approvals from the when -- from when construction can commence? What is the Board's feeling on the time line and expectations around the ban being lifted within the year?

Thanks, [ Harry ]. Look. It's a good question, and obviously it's one which is right at the front of our minds. Clearly, as a business, we are doing everything we can to be as ready as we can be to commence construction as soon as we're able, so there's sort of a huge amount of work going on in the background to make sure we are construction ready when we're able to start. As a reminder for everyone: There is currently a permit moratorium in place in Mali. This was put in place towards the end of last year. While they do a review of historically issued permits, it's clearly out of our control when that's going to end. And we haven't had a formal or official update from anyone in the Malian government about it, but it impacts all businesses in Mali, all mining companies in Mali. It's not specific to Cora in any way. Recently they had a positive referendum result in the last 10 days. And obviously there are positive noises coming out of Mali around the ending of the moratorium in the near future, but there's been nothing official about when that moratorium ends. Just to -- I guess, to give a bit more color as much as I can. We received our environmental permit last year. In terms of receiving your mining permit, it's a transfer of your existing exploration permit into a mining permit. The receipt of mining -- of environmental permit, sorry, took around 3 to 3.5 months to achieve from application, so in terms of a guide, one would expect to follow that similar process from when we're able to apply for the mining permit. So look. We're doing everything we can to be as ready as we can...

And also, Bert, our exploration permit has 7 years.

Yes, it's a good point.

And it's in very good standing, so -- we renewed it quite recently.

Yes. I think that -- yes, so -- exactly. [ We wrote that ] we recently renewed our exploration permit, so we have 6-plus years of [ tenure left ] on our exploration permit, which is what we would be converting into a mining permit. So look. We're being as ready as we can be to get going as quickly as we can, but the actual -- the timing of the permit moratorium ending is out of our control. And we're hearing positive noises about it coming to an end soon, but we have nothing formal or official around the exact timing of that. Does anyone else on the call have any other questions they'd like to ask or put to us?

Bert, if you want to just jump to -- because it came out today, just talk to the RNS that was out today.

Yes, sure. So this morning, hopefully, people have seen the news that we signed a $70 million debt mandate with Atlantique Finance. Atlantique Finance is part of the BCP group. BCP are the sixth largest banking group in Africa, a Moroccan-based bank. They've got significant experience in project financing mining companies and other businesses across West Africa. That's a significant milestone for Cora to go through, obviously adding to the $20 million of equity and convertible loan notes we raised earlier in the year. The convertible loan notes have an automatic conversion when any debt becomes unconditional and binding. So in terms of moving forward -- moving the project forward, it's another significant positive step for us and obviously part of getting ourselves as ready as we can be to kick off the project once the permit moratorium comes to an end. So I guess it's a good, positive endorsement both on the project and on Mali in terms of looking forward. [ Paul, got anything ]?

No, no, no. I agree. I -- the only thing I'd like to say is -- and just to add, [ Harry ], to what we're trying to do is -- achieve is we've now got the equity sort of ready. The debt piece, we've been lining up and now finally signed it, but then -- but it's also running quite hard at the management team and the EPCM contractor and stuff. So what we've been trying to do whilst the -- it's been disappointing, the political side of things. It really hasn't, I'd say, yet slowed down our progress but -- necessarily because we've been looking at EPCM contractors, looking at the best steps available. And I think the mandate letter, you'll -- when you read into it, is -- has decent indications of terms on the debt. So we're all -- there's no work stream sort of slowing down because of the moratorium just yet, but it is important that we -- that it gets lifted in the next coming months.

Thanks.

Yes.

Yes, sure. You mentioned the loan notes and the shares raised earlier this year. So it's roughly $3 million and $15 million, [ roughly, that proportion ]. And I'm a little bit confused about when the loan notes mature because, obviously, today's announcement said there's a mandatory conversion into shares when the -- whenever there's a -- the sheet is agreed. And I think somewhere back, in a previous RNS, it mentioned that September...

Yes...

Right, early September.

So how does -- how do those two [ goes again ]?

Well, just on the conditionality of the mandatory, it is not only in [ off-load ] finance. It's also all conditions related to that being met as well.

So say it's entirely likely that there won't be a term sheet ready by September. What happens at that point, [ 8th of September ], was it...

So we will have to talk to convertible loan note holders.

Right.

For an extension.

I think...

That's what you'd go for.

That's what we'll do.

Yes. I think it's really worth noting that the vast majority of the convertible loan notes are held by...

The shareholders...

Significant shareholders in the business.

Yes.

Right. I mean because they've got a decision.

Clearly.

Yes.

They've got to decide whether to give up their creditor status and become shareholders.

Yes.

So that's really what you're likely to have...

Yes. It will be -- it will likely be an extension.

Okay.

So in the situation that we aren't able to, yes, get a binding agreement...

Will there have to be a vote for that, or does it just happen?

No, but they are treated as a separate pool of, if you like, investors [indiscernible] because they invest [ in government ]. So we -- a meeting can be called with those convertible loan note holders, and that would then be put to them for consideration.

Okay, okay but [ not another ] shareholder vote just for that.

Yes.

Okay.

But it's a good question. We're trying to time it all right so that, that convertible convert at the same time as the debt goes binding and we have -- and the permit to construct.

Yes.

We kind of want that all to [ come together ]...

Yes. You want to [ come with the whole ]...

Yes, exactly.

And obviously...

But there are -- it's 3 different pieces, so I think each party has got to be flexible...

So given, as you said, the vast majority is within your major shareholders, is it reasonable to say that an extension is likely...

Yes.

Is it a majority vote? Are they all bound by -- can each take an individual decision? Or are they bound by a majority vote...

[ So ] it's individual.

Okay, so in theory, somebody could actually call in the money.

Yes, but it's unlikely...

It's unlikely because you'd sabotage the whole thing, but you never know with human beings, do you? So...

Yes. And just obviously if it -- all the convertible loan notes is kept escrowed from -- so we haven't spent the money.

Right...

Okay...

[ I'm sure ] that might have been your next question.

Well, cash burn was one of my questions, definitely. And if I can just stick to the -- just the funding: I think you mentioned -- I mean obviously you can't give us too many details, but in terms of they must have discussed with you what sort of indicative terms that you want, how much -- what term. I mean, is it 5 years to 10 years? Also, presumably they're discussing. Well, what interest rate can you tolerate?

I think the best, really, thing to do is to lead you to other examples of people who have financed with West African banks. So I think there are examples...

Okay. So if were using Hummingbird for example...

Sorry. You -- we're talking about the bank debt...

Yes...

We're talking about the bank debt.

We're talking about, well, your discussions with Atlantique, on the basis on which you -- they go out and try and get a consortium of banks. They will want to know, "Well, what are we being offered?" Is it a [ 5 ]? Is it [ 10 ]? You mentioned senior. Clearly it's senior, obviously, but then they want to know what they can charge.

I think what I'd say is what we put out in the press release is obviously as much as we're able to say about the specific negotiations and discussions with Atlantique Finance.

Yes, yes, absolutely...

[indiscernible].

No, no, absolutely. I understand that.

But I think, in terms of what other sort of single-asset West African developments have achieved in the last 3 or 4 years -- I mean this Hummingbird you mentioned...

I think they're 10%.

There's [ Orezone ] you mentioned. I mean, in principle, those -- both those...

[ They're both are, yes ].

Both those miners had, I think, 5-year terms. And they were in the region of [ 10 percentage in rates ].

Yes. Okay, that's fine. That's fine. If you start saying [ 30% ], then I will suspect the IRR of the project starts to go down drastically...

Yes, yes, yes. And as you mentioned, when we were discussing before the meeting -- I mean our project has a high IRR and has a 1.2-year payback on capital, with extremely good free cash flow [ in the early years ].

Yes. And then if you -- obviously, if you double the interest rate [ and the $100 million save ], then that's a big dent...

And -- but it's interesting. It doesn't affect the IRR that much because the payback is so quick, yes. So if it was [ 20 a year ], it would be very -- they do very little to the IRR.

But that's next question is, if you borrow $100 million for 5 years, can you pay balloons and stuff like that...

You can pay it back...

Yes. I mean again obviously...

They might [ insist ] 5 years and they pay [ 20 20 20 ] -- but obviously you've got a high payback. Then your opportunity cost is to basically pay them.

Yes. I mean obviously, the first 18 months of your 5-year term, you would be in construction, so you'll be unable [indiscernible]. Then obviously you've then got a ramp-up period, so the reality is, the first 3 years, you're kind of in a period where you're building it. And then you're delivering your first year of commercial production, so you're probably [ not ] talking about the ability to pay back a 5-year loan...

So that means...

Yes, I understand, okay, yes. So I see what you're saying about the IRR, got you. In terms of the actual loans, would there be any element of convertibility into shares in that? Or would it be a straightforward loan?

Again with Atlantique -- with the debt...

Yes, yes.

Yes, no...

[ I think that it hasn't raised itself ]. Banks are not interested, or potential...

That's not come up in discussion...

Okay. Well, there's just that dilution...

Yes. The West African banks are not interested in that.

Surely. They just...

Not like these other bank -- mine finance groups...

[indiscernible].

Yes, yes.

Yes, yes. They're interested in the optionality...

Yes.

[indiscernible].

[indiscernible] question.

Well, I thought just to look out for your interests. And it will be fixed or floating...

Fixed would be the aim.

Okay, but as you said, it's all subject to negotiation. I understand...

I don't want to seem like a politician...

No, no, no...

[ I mean it's a bit tricky to ] answer questions...

I'm trying to get as much information out of you as I can reasonably me do it, I mean, clearly, but...

But previous examples of other banks will be fixed.

Okay, yes...

No, that's fine. I hear what you say. And in terms of what you're paying them, is it on a small retainer at launch...

No retainer. There is a success fee [ involved ].

Success fee...

So you're not -- it's not adding to cash burn at the moment.

No.

Yes.

That's good to know.

[ Market norm ].

And over and above that, are you likely to go to any other bank and ask for money? Because obviously Hummingbird has just gone to [indiscernible] bank and basically loaded up [ max at it ].

I mean the Atlantique Finance group have given us a strong indication, as they put in the statement that they put in, that they would be able to [ source our financing ]...

I think what you have to remember is that Atlantique Finance are actually an agency...

Yes. You said they're brokerage, yes, yes.

So I wouldn't be surprised if the final package [ was with an ] element of syndication within it.

Yes, yes, I would imagine, yes, yes.

So -- but they are responsible for earning that.

Yes, yes. And...

And then they'll take commission on -- once it's signed.

Yes.

Yes.

They're also the fourth largest bank in Africa. They have said to us that they can sort of...

If they could manage it themselves, but the like everything else, you syndicate it to reduce your overall balance sheet risk, okay. So cash flow: Obviously the -- you're borrowing $70 million. I think the template -- on the template of the budget, it was [ $90 million ]. I didn't [indiscernible ] I haven't checked your cash position, but clearly you don't want to go below the $20 million, at the point of which you want to [ start ] because you're suddenly getting -- you're getting to the point where you've got to raise more capital at a reduced share price, so I just wondered how you're -- are you comfortable with the current cash burn? And...

Our cash burn is as low as we can possibly make it. [indiscernible] redundant to make sure that cash burn is as low as it can be. We don't have any head office, [ 7 offices ] [indiscernible], so we run our company as leanly as we possibly can; as well as we have a financing in place from -- once we have financing [ product ] from Banque Atlantique, then I guess we can make a call on exactly where we stand in financing.

I remember your last disclosure on cash flow. Was it cash...

Well, so I think, in terms of free cash, the best thing to go back to is the $3 million that was raised [indiscernible] the $15 million.

Yes, and then the $15 million, yes.

But remember, of the $3 million, we basically [indiscernible] getting on for about $1 million [indiscernible] possible we pay an interest on the convertible loan notes. So at the moment, we're roundabout [ $1 million, $2 million ]...

What's that?

Guess what, we're sat on this free cash...

So $60 million [indiscernible]...

We won't tap into.

So the $60 million is sitting there, not tapped.

Yes.

We won't touch it at all.

Earning interest.

Got you. So effectively you're looking at $70 million plus $60 million, which you will effectively utilize at the point when you start and you're using your free cash [ well enough. ].

Yes. And the money we're spending now, we are investing in taking the project forward, whether it's [indiscernible]. And...

Absolutely, absolutely, but I mean it doesn't sound very much. It sounds as if you could run out of that before the end of the year.

Well, we're actually, interestingly enough, at the moment. Because we put that $60 million of deposit, that's earning [ best part of ] 60,000, 70,000 a month. And that's coming [ to us ], so...

Is that going into your -- okay. So you -- I think you could probably sort of get by waiting [ for gold that was ] -- waiting for the new minister...

Well, certainly the going-concern statement [indiscernible] which says 12 months from May this year is not unreasonable...

Okay, okay, okay. It is a waiting game. You've just got to outlast them. You've got to...

Exactly. And let's face it: As the waiting game goes on -- and I mean Bert has already alluded to redundancies. Then we may have to pay [indiscernible]...

Yes, yes, yes. Well, then that puts back to the political pressure presumably because the big [ man ] isn't really responsible for all that...

That's right.

Craig and Bert have been very good at managing cash. Like [ we're all doing great ].

Yes.

No, no. I'm sure. I'm sure it's top of most of your mind. I'm not -- but it's not to share your concerns. That's all it is.

Yes.

Okay, we got that [indiscernible], got that.

I'd ask all these questions...

Sorry...

I would ask all these questions.

You've got to look out for your interests, I mean. I think really the last thing I've got is just the big picture stuff on the politics, so still the question about the security situation. Obviously the resource nationalism is a particular thing, particularly in Latin America, but Africa is making big noises about not being represented in various bodies and all the rest of it. Wagner, I think they've been in the news recently.

Right.

And then the final thing is just the ECOWAS thing. I know that mining was [ on the Northeast step ] at some point. And I don't know whether they still are given this referendum...

We're not -- and start with the last one [indiscernible] the ECOWAS. And we did talk before this meeting about the referendum that's just happened in Mali [indiscernible]. And it was, yes, last -- I can -- last week. So that's a change in the constitution. ECOWAS did -- when the military junta that's in power at the moment came in, they did impose some sanctions. They were financial, most of it. On Mali. Those got lifted and pending [indiscernible] elections. And that -- one of them was the referendum, so since the country agreed to follow this path towards [indiscernible], then -- they are back. [indiscernible].

They've been a full member now. They're often [indiscernible], Okay, okay...

I mean more generally, on security, I mean, I think, if you Google "Mali," there's a lot of negative news stories, right? They -- the reality is there are a lot of mid-tier and junior miners that are operating there very successfully. The South of the country, where we operate, has been generally speaking, touch wood, not been impacted by security concerns, so you can operate there fairly normally. Obviously, security, fixed on every single weekly call we have. And obviously, clearly, it's front of almost -- the safety of your staff and being able to operate there, but there are a number of operating gold miners who are operating there fine, with expats flying in and out, extracting their gold. And Mali, whilst it's had a number of different regime changes over the last 30 years, none of those have had an impact on the ability for Western-listed businesses to operate gold mines and take money and gold out of the country.

Have you seen Chinese [ muscling in ] at all recently? Chinese...

Well, the Chinese have been all over West Africa, so while -- and when you look at the [ artisanal mine ] that's there, there is a Chinese influence in them. They're supplying equipment, renting it to them or whatever, so yes, there is an influence.

But are -- they're not buying. And they're going for the sort of [ home mines ] and all that and...

I mean, as we know -- I mean I think I guess where you're going is, is there -- are you worried about the [ tenure and your ability to get your company that's been there ]...

Well, it's probably good and bad. I mean the Chinese play the game and get licenses. Actually they're on your side because they want as good a rule as -- they want [ property ] rights and they want the rule of law just like everybody else. It's more a matter of how they're approaching.

Yes. I mean there's lot of gold in Mali. It's the biggest gold-producing country in Africa, so I mean I think the fact -- there are obviously lots of different groups, a lot of actors all looking in that to want to extract the gold. So I guess it's encouraging that more people are trying to come in to Mali to -- buying gold and extract gold, because it shows how much more there is of that, so yes. I don't think it will impact our ability to extract [ on our part of that area ].

Okay. And so yes. So that's unchanged. And Wagner, I mean, does it feature at all? I mean they are obviously meeting with the government...

I think you've got to wait and see what happens in the next few weeks. I mean clearly quite a lot has happened over the weekend.

Yes, yes, yes...

I mean...

[ No, I agree ]...

I mean it's -- I mean I think it's probably good that they are offering security and training to the...

Well, they mine gold as well but presumably [ not around where ] you are.

I mean...

I mean there's been speculation that they mine gold. I mean...

I'm not aware of in Mali [ directly ]...

The Central African [indiscernible], yes.

Central African [indiscernible], but I'm not aware in Mali...

They're normally after something, right? They don't get out...

I mean the [indiscernible], which is public, lets you, say, have a sense sort of the security contract where they train and support the Malian military, which is what obviously the UN have previously been [indiscernible].

Yes, yes, yes.

Thank you for all the questions. That was good to, obviously, go through. And thank you, everyone, for joining -- has anyone got any final questions, who's online? You might [indiscernible] if you're talking to anyone, but if not, we'll end the discussion, if that's all right.

Yes. Thank you all for attending. And we'll draw the proceedings to a close.

Thank you, everyone.

Thank you.

Nice to hear from you.

Thanks...

Thanks, everybody.