Covivio (COV) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everybody. I'm happy together with Paul to present Covivio's '24 results. Let's start Page 2 with the key highlights. Those key figures illustrate a successful year for Covivio without mentioning all what we see, reinforcement into hotel, a healthy balance sheet while values are stabilizing, strong operating performance and growth in recurring results and dividend. Let's go into more detail first on the transformation of the portfolio. Page 5, you know our portfolio and unique model of diversification. This model based on the 3 pillars you have on the right part has driven the performance of the year and also been reinforced in '24 by our asset rotation. Page 6 with EUR 766 million of disposal agreements secured 3% above '23 values and with an average exit yield of 5%. All in all, what do we see here? Most of the agreements deal with offices for EUR 361 million, close to book values, a mix between non-core assets and one development project in the south of Milan. In German resi, 2 interesting moves. First, the setup of a JV with a French investor Caisse Dépôts. Second, the continued progress of privatization with 40% margin versus book value. Finally, in hotels, we include in those figures the swap transaction with AccorInvest as it is a disposal on one side and an acquisition on the other. With this transaction and further disposals of nonstrategic hotels, we streamlined the portfolio. In parallel, Page 7, in '24, we did for EUR 1.1 billion of investment at a yield above 6.5% and reflecting our strategic moves. 2/3 of this investment were in hotels, including the contribution in kind for Covivio Hotel shares and the acquisitions of the AccorInvest OpCos. In parallel, we reinforced our footprint into city centers office through our development project and continue to upgrade the quality of our German resi portfolio with modernization CapEx. Thanks to this asset rotation, '24 has been a key year for the transformation of our portfolio with more hotels and more centrality. See the Page 8. Taking a step back, since 2020, we increased by 5 points hotel exposure of which 3 points in '24. We also increased our German resi exposure. And finally, we increased the share of city center offices to 70% now. This trend shall continue over the long term as we show on the right part of the slide and as described the more longer we are during our Capital Market Day last November. I will now leave the floor to Paul to comment on our operating activity.

Thank you, Christophe. Good morning, everyone. So the year was not only active on the asset rotation side, it was also active on the operating side, as you can see, starting with offices, Page 10. We signed 176,000 square meters of letting during the year, a good performance across all of our clusters, as you can see on the right part of the slide. On city centers, first, the main part of our portfolio, the occupancy has slightly increased to 97.6%. And in parallel, we benefited from a plus 12% uplift on our relettings. On major business hubs, our operated office offer is bearing fruits with letting successes, as you can see on the slide, on Saint-Ouen in Paris, Saint-Ouen So Pop and Vélizy-Meudon. This enabled us to increase by 200 bps the occupancy rate to 94.9%. And on noncore assets, only 6% of our portfolio, we also have been able to improve the occupancy rate to 84.5%. So thanks to this letting activity and moving to Page 11, our office occupancy rate is up by 100 bps to 95.5%. This directly contributes to a significant part of the strong like-for-like rental growth we had in 2024, plus 8% for the office portfolio. An active year also for hotels and moving to Page 12. 2024, as you probably remember, was marked by the asset swap with AccorInvest with, as you can see on the left part of the slide, the acquisition of the OpCos at 12% EBITDA yield in exchange of disposals of PropCos at 5% rental yield. This deal was closed at the end of November 2024 and enable us to merge OpCos and PropCos of 43 hotels, gaining the full control and the capacity to extract growth for this portfolio. So since then, we signed management contracts with hotel operators. We are fine-tuning the CapEx program, and we expect a 20% yield on this CapEx program. And in parallel, as you see on the bottom right part of the slide, on the remaining part of the AccorInvest portfolio, which is not concerned by this swap, we achieved joint disposals alongside AccorInvest to continue to streamline our hotel portfolio. So this asset swap contributes to the transformation of our hotel portfolio, as you can see on the next slide, Page 13. We keep our balanced revenue profile. 57% of the hotel are under fixed leases. But in parallel, we gain flexibility and control on the variable part, moving from variable leases to operating properties. With this balanced model, we show on the right part of the slide, the main elements. We have the security with long-term revenues on the leases. We have the growth potential of the operating properties. And finally, the remaining part of the variable leases offers further asset management opportunities in the future. So moving to the performance now of the hotel portfolio on Page 14. 2024 has been a strong year for us. First of all, we benefited from positive momentum on the market. The RevPAR in Europe is up by 4%, a performance which has been driven by Southern Europe, especially Spain, plus 13%, but also Germany, plus 7%. In this context and moving to the right part of the slide, we outperformed with a 7% like-for-like revenue growth on our portfolio, benefiting from indexation on the fixed leases, plus 4.3% and benefiting from the growth of the market and from our asset management deals on the variable revenues, which ends up at plus 12% growth like-for-like. That's for hotel and moving now to German residential on Page 15. Successful year as well. The increasing housing shortage benefit to our positioning. You see the reversionary potential we get on the relettings in 2024, plus 24% on average. 2 years ago, it was plus 15%. And on top of that, plus 36% only in Berlin. Overall, that means that we were able to accelerate on the like-for-like rental growth for this portfolio. We were at 3.1% like-for-like growth in 2022, 3.9% in 2023 and 4.3% in 2024, thanks to this increasing reversionary and thanks also to the indexation. Berlin is outperforming. You see that on the right part of the slide, plus 4.9% growth. So overall. And moving to Page 17. That means 5% increase at current scope for our revenues up to EUR 680 million group share, thanks to the reinforcement in hotel, thanks to the dynamic letting activity I just mentioned, which enable us on the current scope to offset the impact of the disposal program. That means also and moving to the right part of the bottom of the slide that we have a plus 6.7% like-for-like revenue growth in 2024. You see the drivers, indexation, 3 points; asset management, rental activity, plus 2.9 points and 80 bps coming from variable revenue in hotel. Moving now to the financial results and starting with the appraisal values. A word, first of all, Page 19 on the investment market. 2023 has been one of the most calm market overall historically. And we started to have a recovery in 2024, as you can see in this slide, 23% increase in the investment market, a recovery that we start to see across all our asset classes. In this context, and moving to our portfolio valuation, Page 20, values are stabilizing, and this has been confirmed with our appraisal values in the second part of 2024. So after minus 1.3% like-for-like value in H1, we record plus 0.2% in the second part of the year, which can be splitted between minus 0.5% in office, where basically we have back to growth in the city centers. You see Paris CBD plus 3%, plus 1% then on German residential with the outperformance of Berlin. Keep in mind that this is block values and plus 1% in the second part of the year into the hotel business, benefiting from the revenue growth and an increase of the yield at 6.4%. In parallel, our balance sheet has been further reinforced during the year. We put the figures on Page 21. First of all, our LTV is down by 200 bps to 38.9%, now in line with our LTV policy below 40%. Our net debt-to-EBITDA is also improving by 90 bps to 11.4x. Today, we have a strong balance sheet. You can see the main elements on the right part of the slide. We have a controlled cost of debt. We expect it to stay below 2.5% until the end of 2028. We have a long-term debt maturity close to 5 years, and we have a high liquidity, EUR 2.5 billion, which covers all the debt expiries by June 2027. Let's now look at the results and first of all, at the net asset value. So here, Page 22, we put the NTA, which ends at EUR 79.8 per share at the end of 2024. You see in the bridge. First of all, we had a decline in the first part of this year linked to the value decrease I just mentioned, EUR 2.3 per share impact, linked also to the scrip dividend, which has been subscribed by close to 78% of the shareholders at a price of EUR 38.6 per share. But then in the second part of the year, stabilization of the values and cash flow generation enabled us to increase this net asset value by 3% over the second part of the year. Then second main KPI for us is the recurring net results and moving to Page 23. We start with revenue -- net revenue, which grew by 6% at EUR 686 million. Then what you can see in this P&L is basically that we have also improved our cost profile, decreasing the operating cost. And we were also able to control the cost of the net financial debt. Thanks to that, the 6% growth in net revenues become 10% growth in the adjusted EPRA earnings at EUR 477 million. On a per share basis, we have the effect of the increase of shares linked to the scrip dividend and to the contribution we gained in hotel. And so despite this increase absolute number of shares, we were able to stabilize the EPRA earnings per share at EUR 447. You see the bridge of the EPRA earnings on the Slide 24. What we can do? Basically, first of all, we benefited from our reinforcement into hotel, increasing our stake to our subsidiary, Covivio Hotel. It represents 4 points in the growth of our recurring net results. But putting that aside, we were also able to increase the results kind of a like-for-like on our portfolio despite the effect of the disposals and despite the slight negative impact of the pipeline. This is thanks to EUR 40 million of additional revenues coming from the operating activity, and this is thanks also to the improvement of our cost base. Thank you, and I'll let the floor to Christophe.

Thank you, Paul. So let's now look ahead with the outlook. Starting Page 26. Covivio is entering '25 stronger than before the crisis. Looking at the market first, we see positive fundamentals across all our asset classes, and we believe that the investment market is starting slowly to recover. In parallel, looking at ourselves, we have reinforced the quality of our portfolio. We have demonstrated our agility over the last years and our capacity to innovate. On top of that, we can rely on a healthy balance sheet. For all these reasons, Covivio is in a good shape to seize new opportunities. In this context and in line with the long-term ambition we provided at our Capital Market Day last November, we fixed ourselves 3 main priorities for '25. To pursue the reinforcement of the portfolio quality uncertainty strategy to continue to extract growth for our existing portfolio and to deploy our operated real estate offer, a key component for our tenants. So first, on portfolio rebalancing, Page 28. We want to invest further in hotels. In this context, our subsidiary, Covivio Hotel will launch a capital increase with the scrip options on the dividend '24. We will opt for the scrip option. In parallel, on our portfolio, we continue to extract growth through conversion of office into hotels through delivering of our office pipeline in the city centers and through our CapEx program in German resi. We will also continue to streamline our portfolio by selling noncore or peripheral assets, and we have currently EUR 150 million of advanced discussions. Moving to the second priority, Page 29 on growth potential. See some examples, office to hotel conversions. We intend to launch in the next 12 months, 2 projects in the eastern part of Paris, Bobillot, 3,400 square meter office building in Paris 13 and Voltaire in Paris in 11th on another 10,000 square meter office to be vacated soon by Orange. Overall, these 2 projects have a total budget of EUR 150 million, including the land with an average yield on cost of 6%. We also continue to transform office into resi. See this example in right, Page 30. We are in a location well known by upper middle-class families and clearly lacking of quality housing. We just obtained the building permit to build 140 units, and so we start the work soon for delivery targeted in '27. Here, the total budget is EUR 65 million, and we target a margin of around 10%. Staying in the resi segment and moving to Germany, Page 31. We continue to see there a lot of potential in our portfolio. So the rental growth, like-for-like rent is now significantly above inflation and market trends continue to grow, especially in Berlin. Second driver, privatization, mostly in Berlin, where we have a highly divided portfolio over the long term, the potential value extractions amount to EUR 1 billion will take time. The third driver, modernization program will yield from 5% to 10%. Now third priority, Page 32, to deploy our operating real estate offer. Offering flexibility and services is key for end users in any asset classes. It also brings value to our assets. This is why we are frontrunner on this key element of our business and want to push further on it in our 3 business units. Let's take the example of offices, Page 33. Our approach of operated real estate has been incremental to our letting successes. See the example of the left part of the slide, 3 assets in markets with a lot of competition. So Pop in the north of Paris is today 90% let. Maslo, Levallois is fully let. Urban Garden Issy-les-Moulineaux is 85% let. This approach is exactly what we want to do in CB1 Tower in La Défense. You know that we have one single asset in La Défense, CB21. La Défense is a volatile market. But in the long term, it remains a good one on the back of strong fundamentals, locations, bigger strong access to public transportation and today, a record gap of France versus the center of Paris. That's why take-up in La Défense is really now rebounding by more than 60% in '24 compared to '23 and significantly above the 10-year average for plus 14% last year. In this market, our tower is one of the best located assets, the closest to Paris and in front of the metro line. We already reproposition the lower floor of in 2021 with an improved service offer. Thanks to that, we are able to fully relet this part of the tower. Our tenant for the other part of the tower, Suez is leaving in the coming months. They are occupying the best floor of the tower. We have there a dual strategy to relet those spaces. Relet the medium floor with a low level of CapEx, we already have advanced discussion to relate as it is first floor. On the upper floors, we are defining a CapEx program to create state-of-the-art spaces and target higher level of rents above EUR 550 per square meter. On hotels, Page 34, we'll also further deploy our operated offer, changing brands and deploying high-yielding CapEx programs. 2 examples here, Ibis Paris Montmartre an asset for which we bought the OpCo in the asset swap with AccorInvest just at the end of last year. We just signed a new franchise passing from Accor to an international brand. In the meantime, we will fully refurbish the hotel to higher standards. Another example in Le Touquet-Paris- Plage, a famous destination in France. Here, we will change the brand also, and we will also refurbish and extend the capacity of the hotel. Overall, these 2 example of projects offer yield on cost -- yield on CapEx above 20% and a value creation above 30%. Let's now conclude with the dividend and the guidance. First, Page 36 with the dividend. As announced earlier in '24, we come back to a full cash dividend, and we propose to the general meeting an increase by 6% to EUR 3.50 per share. Regarding the guidance for '25, Page 37, the good dynamic you have seen on our performance in '24 shall continue in '25. That means that despite the full effects of the disposal plan and progressive increase of financing costs, we expect to continue to grow recurring results and target a plus 4% in '25 to EUR 495 million. That means that we expect a stability per share at EUR 4.47 per share despite the full effect of the increased number of share of '24. So before opening the Q&A session, what shall we keep for those results? The key takeaways on my side. We emerged from the real estate crisis stronger than before. During those 2 years of crisis, we have also demonstrated the relevance of our positioning on the back on strong results, and we are entering '25 optimistic, and we see a favorable outlook. Thank you to listening, Paul and myself, and we are not now ready with Paul, but also with Olivier Estève, our Deputy CEO; and Tugdual Millet, the CEO of Hotels, to answer your questions.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from Veronique Meertens from Kempen.

A few from my side. Maybe first on the guidance. You just mentioned EUR 4 stable per share, but in my calculation, I actually get at EUR 4.44. So just wondering, if you are indeed expecting a stable per share basis. Plus what are the exact drivers of the guidance? So how many disposals or acquisitions or investments do you have penciled in to drive to that EUR 495 million?

[indiscernible] by basically, we'll give you the precise number of shares, et cetera. We have some -- some shares that we own. So maybe this is the explanation. But I confirm EUR 4.47 per share, what is included in the guidance. In terms of drivers, so first of all, we have the hypothesis that we continue to have a good operating performance, outperforming inflation basically. We will have also the full effect of the disposals of 2024. That's the main impact, I would say, to the guidance 2025, not much of impact of the asset rotation of the year 2025. And we have a slight increase of the average cost of the debt. Then on the positive side, in addition to the like-for-like rental growth, we expect to have the full effect for 11 months of the swap with AccorInvest. And we also have 1 quarter in addition of our reinforcement into our subsidiary, Covivio Hotel. That's the main hypothesis.

Okay. That's clear. And maybe on those investment opportunities in hotels, what are you currently seeing in the market? How serious are the opportunities out there? Because through the scrip dividend of Covivio Hotels, you, I guess, hope to increase that stake. But do you already have an indication that the rest of the shareholder base might not take up the scrip dividend?

I will ask you to speak about the opportunities in hotel and after I will speak about the other hotels.

Yes. So on opportunities, our priorities today is to strengthen our Southern Europe exposure. It's what we detailed during our Capital Market Day. One of the first example that we have offered is the acquisition that we've done in December with EUR 80 million acquisition under a lease agreement, mixed fixed and variable with Iberostar in the Canary Islands. So we continue to identify a lot of opportunities there. So Spain, Portugal and Italy. We benefit from local teams sourcing the market, and it's due to our confidence in finding good opportunities that we are offering this capacity to strengthen the Covivio Hotel balance sheet to easily finance those opportunities.

And on the scrip at Covivio Hotel, at this stage, we don't know what will be the shareholder decide. But once they will decide, it's the good news for us, if they subscribe, we will have more capacity to invest in the hotel. If they will not follow, we will reinforce our stake in Covivio Hotels.

Okay. That's very clear. Maybe one last thing for me. So on the office lettings, you already briefly mentioned CB 21. I just wanted to get a bit of a view on how you expect that occupancy or vacancy to roll out because you mentioned that the middle floors, you're in advanced discussions. But if you're refurbishing or have quite an extensive program on the upper floors, does that put a delay on the letting of the middle floors as well?

No. Thanks for the questions really. We can -- we will -- the tower is -- will continue to be let. The first part of the tower today is fully let to 15 different tenants. And so -- and we imagine, as I said before, to try to let with a minimum amount of CapEx, the medium part of the tower. We have really one lease, which is ready to be signed for 1,500 square meters that will start in the 1st of July. We have other really discussions there. So just last week, we have 5 visits. So we will have -- we imagine to be able to relet a significant part of the tower as it is with the minimum level of CapEx on the medium part. On the top part of the tower, we imagine really to improve the quality of the tower to offer because there is really the best use comparison and so on. So -- and we imagine to be able to reach also a higher level of rents. And that's -- and that will take, yes, a little more time for that, but that will not have any impact on the capacity to relet the medium part of the tower.

The next question comes from Stéphanie Dossmann from Jefferies.

So maybe 3 questions from my side. Regarding your noncore portfolio on offices, which is 6%. What is the strategy going forward? I know you quoted EUR 150 million under discussions, but what can we expect in terms of disposals phase, I would say. And also on the German office portfolio, what is your strategy there given the value decline was very significant again this year? The second question on German residential. What is your view on the German elections, more regulation expected or not? I know it depends on the cold and the coalition. But do you have a view on that? And maybe last one for the guidance of '25, I agree with Veronique, I was at 4.44 and assuming the number of shares you disclosed in your report yesterday. So yes, maybe more precise figure on that and the -- your indexation assumption for '25, please?

Okay. So first on the noncore office part, first of all, it's Today, it's only EUR 400 million value on your portfolio that means really a small part of your EUR 15.5 billion of asset in group share. We reduced strongly this part during the last 2 years, thanks to disposal, but thanks also by the fact that the values are going strongly down in this part of the portfolio by roughly 40% since the peak. The strategy is really to exit for this part. We have really in the EUR 150 million of potential and advanced discussion today. Most of them are in this pocket. So we will see after that, if they will successful this year or if it will be for the next year. But for us, in 2 years from now, we would like to be fully exit for this part. In terms of German office, part of the German office are also in this pocket. So it's also part of what we have today. Yes, you're right. The values are going strongly down also in '24 in this pocket. I have to say German office remain a weak market compared to what we see, especially in Italy or in center of Paris. We don't have the same dynamic in terms of letting and in terms of -- also in terms of investment. Today, when you compare just the prime yield in Milan are below the prime yield in Berlin. So that's really when you are looking to the -- just to the interest rate is really strange, but it's the first time we see that. So that's why really also there is this negative effect on the German office market. We will continue to work and to try to improve the situation in the future. In the German resi, we will see the result of the election in Sunday. So I think it's too early to have any view on that. What we imagine is that the right party will have -- will be part of the majority this time. And as -- as we expect, perhaps it could be a small good news on the regulation, but really difficult to imagine because we know that will be after the election a discussion to build a coalition in Germany and the question of regulation could be one thing on the table. But we are more optimistic than before on this topic also and perhaps could be good news for the future. On the guidance '25, I'll let Paul to try to answer another time to this question.

Stephanie. So we have 111.6 million of shares outstanding. Out of that, we have 0.8 million of treasury shares. So if you exclude the treasury shares, and you divide the EUR 495 million, you will find EUR 4.47 per share. Keep in mind, maybe this is what you used as the number of shares used for the NAV calculation is diluted. It means that it includes the free shares program.

Maybe on indexation, what assumption do you take for '25, please?

Yes. Basically, it depends on some -- if it is directly linked to CPI or not, et cetera. But overall, around 2% indexation is taken as an hypothesis. We are slightly above on French offices because we have a lag effect due to the index, which are above as of today in terms of ILAT and ICC. And for the other part, it's really directly linked to the CPI. So overall, around 2%.

The next question comes from Florent Joubertt from ODDO.

I would have one question about investment and disposals. So what would be reasonable to expect in terms of acquisition and disposal in 2025, so after the high volume of disposal in 2024, notably.

What we -- really we enter, as I said during the present in a new part of the cycle. So for us today, and we are able also to achieve our target in terms of LTV, we imagine that we are at a low point of the cycle in terms of values. That's why we will continue to push on disposal on what is noncore. That's not a question that's something we want to exit, but we will, I imagine, reduce the speed of the disposal of what is core today in the future. So that means that today, we could imagine to have roughly a minimum of EUR 400 million of disposal in '25, taking into account what we could do. In terms of investment, we have to finance the CapEx plan that we have on our pipeline and what is also in the hotel sector, what we have in mind. So that's roughly EUR 250 million. And on top of that, yes, we imagine to do some investments, and we will see what could be done in '25, depending on the opportunities that we will find. And as you understand, it will be mostly in the hotel sector.

And can we ask you if you have some active discussion at the moment?

We have some discussions. I don't know if we can say that active, but we are -- yes, we are suing some potential acquisition.

The next question comes from [indiscernible].

Just 2. The first one on German office. I appreciate, I think you already answered this, but maybe just asking in a different way. Occupancy has been depressed there for quite a few years now. Is that something you expect to pick up over the coming years? Or does the economic and political uncertainty in the region potentially put more downward pressure on occupancy levels there? And then just on the hotel portfolio, which you said that you would expect to increase, particularly in Southern Europe. Do you expect that mainly to be fixed leases? Or do you expect to continue growing your exposure to the operating properties beyond the current 40%?

German office, we have a target to increase occupancy. We have some discussions now on some products, but I have to say it took more time than expected, that's sure. So we will see exactly where we will be in the coming months, but the market is really not as easy as I said, that we see in France and in Italy. On the hotels portfolio in terms of -- we like our current mix in terms of variable on what we have in terms of fixed lease and what we have in terms of operating properties. So we would like to stay in this mix. That means roughly close to 60% fixed lease and 40% operating properties. So we are currently discussing more, I have to say, on acquisition on fixed lease, but that could change. And Tugdual want to add something.

Yes. It's also not only about fixed lease, but our preference would be to have a more, I would say, upside potentials through minimum guaranteed rent and variable part. This is probably more the evolution where we want to go. That was the example of the last acquisition that we've made. So that will enable us to benefit from the outlook that we see on this part of Europe.

That's clear. Maybe just 1. If the German portfolio in office was to remain particularly weak this year, maybe a bit of a prolonged period of time, would you consider potentially some rotation, selling some of those assets and moving more into the hotel sector there with some of that disposal cash?

We have really today a significant part, as I explained on the noncore office part, which is in Germany. So that's already something which is planned, and we will see. But we -- if we have opportunities to perhaps dispose some other assets in German office, we will do. But I don't expect that, I have to say, in the coming months. First, we need to increase the occupancy to work on the asset management. But in the medium term, yes, why not to continue to dispose some German office asset to reinvest in the hotels in the future.

The next question comes from Adam Shapton from Green Street.

Just one on capital structure and balance sheet. So you set out for a while now the split of the portfolio that you want to achieve 1/3, 1/3, 1/3, which is a change in risk profile, I think, of the overall portfolio. Can you talk about what you think is the appropriate capital structure and balance sheet by 2030 in terms of debt EBITDA, in terms of debt maturities, any other measures that you think about, assuming that that's not something you can achieve overnight. Where do you want the balance sheet to be by 2030 with that change in portfolio mix?

What is sure is that we intend to continue to decrease our net debt-to-EBITDA ratio. And thanks to what you said because we have really the investment in hotels is more accretive in terms of cash flow. So that would be mechanic and that will be there. At this stage, we don't give targets to the market, but you can easily imagine where we could be in the future. But with the same level of LTV, we will have less net debt-to-EBITDA ratio that's sure in the future.

The next question comes from Celine Soo-Huynh from Barclays.

Just one question for me on German resi, please. The best capital allocation you can think of at the moment is selling your low-yielding German resi and investing into higher-yielding hotels. So what are your expectations for German resi privatization this year? And should we expect a ramp-up here going forward?

Paul will answer this one.

Okay. Thank you, Christophe. In terms of capital allocation, I mean, we like having being diversified, as you know. And we have -- we like having this balance between high-yielding, but also variable revenue structure with the hotel and counterbalanced by the very, very low risk, but lower yield of the German residential portfolio. Keep in mind also that as we have seen in '24, the growth of the German residential has increased. So we are also very comfortable on the capacity to continue to further push on rental growth in this asset class, and we have the feeling that the values are troughing in the German residential segment. Coming to your question more precisely on privatization, this is a strategy to continue to push on privatization. On a total share basis, it's more than EUR 80 million in 2024. And the target is to continue in this direction, EUR 80 million to EUR 100 million per year.

[Operator Instructions] Gentlemen, so far, there are no further questions. Back over to you for any closing remarks.

Thank you. Thank you for everybody to listening and see you soon for some of you in the former future road show. Bye-bye.

Thank you. Bye-bye.

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