CSL Finance Limited (530067) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the CSL Finance Limited Earnings Conference Call for Q2 FY 2021, hosted by Kanav Capital Advisors. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Gaurav Sud from Kanav Capital Advisors. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thanks, Melissa. Welcome, everyone, and thanks for joining the Q2 FY '21 update call for CSL Finance Limited. To take us through this update and answer your questions, we have today with us, Mr. Rohit Gupta, Managing Director and Promoter; and Mr. Chandan Verma (sic) [ Chandan Kumar ] Wholesale Credit Head. We will be starting the call with a brief overview of the last 6 months' performance and then follow up with a Q&A session. I would like to remind you all that everything said on this call that reflects any outlook for the future, which can be construed as a forward-looking statement must be viewed in conjunction with uncertainties and risks that they face. These uncertainties and risks are included, but not limited to what we have mentioned in the prospectus filed with SEBI and subsequent annual reports, which you can find on our website. With that said, I'll now turn over the call to Mr. Rohit Gupta. Over to you, Rohit.

Thank you, Gaurav. Good evening, everybody. CSL Finance welcomes you to quarter 2 2021 investor con call. Thank you for taking of the time for this -- attending this call. We hope you and your loved ones are safe and healthy in [Technical Difficulty]

Mr. Gupta? Mr. Rohit Gupta?

I'm Gaurav here. I think he might have dropped off. So can you try connecting him again?

Ladies and gentlemen, we have Mr. Rohit Gupta reconnected to the call. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Yes. Sorry, I think the call was disconnected. So I was covering that pre provisioning profits have significantly improved in this quarter by 15% to INR 10.61 crores as compared to INR 9.22 crores in last quarter. But PAT declined by 5.38% to INR 6.86 crores in quarter 2 as compared to INR 7.25 crores in quarter 2 of the last financial year. The decrease in PAT was majorly driven by COVID provisions being maintained at INR 4.61 crores. For half year numbers, our net interest income grew by INR 7.26 crores -- 7.26% from INR 23.69 crores to INR 25.41 crores. Our PAT has shown a marginal growth of [ 6% ] from INR 13.79 crores in half year for the -- this first year as compared to -- first half year as compared to INR 13.88 crores in this -- the last financial year. Due to higher risk of defaulting repayment post COVID lockdown, our main focus has been on collections. Our collection team has been in regular touch with the clients through telecommunication or face-to-face meeting. Our collections have increased by 63 -- collection has increased by 63.74% to INR 87.29 crores in quarter 2 as compared to INR 53.31 crores in quarter 2 of the last financial year. It has materially increased on quarter-on-quarter, about 177% from INR 31.42 crores in the first quarter. Hello?

Yes, Mr. Gupta.

Yes, yes. Our collection efficiency has been 85% in retail segment where collections have been impacted largely because of school loans. Our AUM increased by 5.53% to INR 335 crores in quarter 2 of this financial year as compared to INR 317 crores in quarter 2 of the last financial year. The AUM growth has been lower due to high collection and our cautious approach towards new sanctions and disbursals. Our disbursements for this quarter has in fact increased by 66% to INR 90 crores in quarter 2 of this financial year as compared to INR 54.09 crores in quarter 2 of the last financial year. The lower growth in AUM is largely due to higher collection in spite of high disbursement. Now coming on to operational update. Our wholesale lending AUM stands at INR 269 crores as on 30th September 2020, as compared to INR 249 crores as on 30th September 2019. It consists of 4 segments, wholesale large, wholesale small, wholesale LAP and loan against securities. We have explained all these 4 segments in the last -- in our con calls earlier. The wholesale loan to mid-income group housing and affordable housing has been our main focus area since we started lending, but gradually, we are shifting our focus towards wholesale small and SME retail segment where the loan tenure and the ticket size are smaller. And so we can avoid concentration risk. AUM of wholesale LAP and LAS increased by 120% to INR 66 crores in quarter 2 financial year 2021 as compared to INR 30 crores in quarter 2 financial year 2020. This was largely due to 2 loans that got disbursed in this quarter. Our SME segment AUM stands at INR 65 crores as on 30th September as compared to INR 69 crores as on 30th September 2019. The decline in AUM is largely on account of higher collections and cautious approach towards new sanction and disbursement till economic activities achieve normalcy. In first 4 months of this financial year, the disbursement was very marginal. So because of that -- because of the higher collection and practically 0 disbursement in first 4 months, the AUM growth has -- the AUM has come down. Our SME portfolio consist of both secured and unsecured loans, with over 90% loans being secured. We give unsecured loans only to K-12 schools where we have capped the ticket size to INR 5 lakhs per loan. And the total portfolio of unsecured loans amount to INR 6 crores as on 30th September 2020. The COVID-19 pandemic has impacted the business across the segments and the NBFC. It is believed that weak balance sheets have been the biggest losers. We have been able to minimize the risk on our loan portfolio due to our prudent lending practices and close monitoring. We are not facing any stress in our existing portfolio, except for school loans, which we expect to become regular once the schools open. We were present in our rural and semi-rural area for our retail segment, where economic activity were less impacted due to COVID-19, and that has helped in better performance of the retail portfolio. Performance of SME portfolio is as per our expectations and collections have improved to 75% overall. If we take off those 2 loans and the collections is roughly around 60%, the collection efficiency is 85% for the remaining SME portfolio. Our wholesale loan portfolio has performed quite well. We have received repayments of INR 88.68 crores during this period against the total outstanding of INR 269 crores as on 30th September 2020. We have always been prudent in our operations and maintained LTV of around 45%. And given that the peak stress for this segment is behind us, we do not foresee any big challenge in this loan portfolio. Furthermore, most of the funded projects are either complete or near completion. So the execution risk is no longer in play and these projects expect sizable committed receivables from the sold but undelivered inventory. Now coming to provisioning. We have a gross NPA of INR 0.25 crores as on 30th September, which has been covered fully by the ECL provisioning. Our net NPA is almost negligible. As a prudent risk management practice, we have already provided ECL provision of INR 6.33 crores under stage 1 and stage 2 of our portfolio. Loans under stage 3, that is INR 0.25 crores have been fully provided for. Now to the treasury update. The NBFC sector has been facing challenges post lockdown due to rising NPAs and liquidity challenges. Thanks to RBI, which has introduced liquidity scheme for the NBFCs. The liquidity has eased up now. We have also been beneficiary of the RBI liquidity scheme and we were able to raise INR 30 crores of private placement of NCDs during this quarter. We have a comfortable level of liquidity and have maintained cash and cash equivalents of INR 19.63 crores as on 30th September. We have repaid INR 12.91 crores of our loans, including prepayments of INR 7 crores in quarter 2 financial year 2021. We have successfully issued NCDs of INR 30 crores and replaced high-cost debt with low-cost debt, which led to decline in interest cost by 20 bps during this quarter. Our net, it has reduced from INR 96 crores as on 31st March 2020 to INR 86 crores as on 30 September 2020, which includes the private placed NCDs of INR 30 crores. Our CRR stands at 73% as on 30th September 2020, which is one of the highest among NBFCs of our size. Thanks, everyone, for participating on the con call. Your questions are important for us, and we strive to be transparent in our investor communication. Economic activities have now started picking up and with good monsoon and increase in rural activities, we think that worst is behind. We aim to maintain the high quality of our balance sheet while striving to grow our business in the coming years. We look forward to connecting with you all after the March '22 (sic) [ '21 ] quarter result. Thanks. Now your questions, please.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of [ Ankit Gupta ] from [ Bamboo Capital. ]

Congratulations on pretty resilient set of numbers and good collection efficiency. Rohit, on the wholesale side, if we look at it, we have seen the worst of the times, and this book has largely been pretty resilient for us. We are still having prepayments in this bucket -- in this segment. So earlier, when we used to talk to you during con calls, you used to say that bankers have been pretty apprehensive about the wholesale lending, and they have been telling us to focus more on the retail side. And I think as a management also we wanted to focus more on the SME part. So given the kind of collections we have seen in this segment and the resilient nature, at least for our portfolio, any views on how this segment -- or any strategy -- any changes in the strategy for this segment for this wholesale segment going forward? And do we now look forward to growing this segment at -- in the coming 2, 3 years or over medium to long term?

Thank you, [ Ankit. ] So as you rightly said, for us, wholesale has been again earning segment for us. And in spite of a very difficult period for last 4, 5 years, we have been able to perform reasonably well as compared to the problems which are being faced by the segment which we are in. These are -- this is especially because -- this is basically because of a few of our parameters, which we have always maintained in our credit policy around the segment, which we say [Foreign Language] we look for projects which are affordable in nature, where the people can live in location wise, and which are nearing completion or where the sales have already happened and there is a very certain stream of cash flows -- predictable cash flows coming in for the completion of the project. So that has been our basis for choosing those projects. And till date we have been able to perform reasonably well. And now we are seeing that even this segment is also picking up. Last 2, 3 months sales have been really very good as compared to what we were expecting. And we would say the worst part has also been passed during last 4, 5 years where we have seen demonetization, GST issues, the RERA coming in and with this COVID. So already this segment has already faced a lot of stress. And so going forward, for us, as we think that we have reasonable domain knowledge of this segment, we will definitely like to maintain and grow in this segment. And even now the number of players have little bit reduced. The bigger NBFCs are not focusing too much -- are not focusing in the size which we are. So definitely, we will like to grow in this segment and -- along with the retail part.

Okay. Okay. And so now -- on the disbursement part, Rohit, we have almost touched INR 90 crore of disbursement during the quarter, which has been one of the highest in the past 5, 6 quarters that we have seen. So -- and looking at how the rural economy and the overall economy has recovered across the country, do we think that second half, we will see some growth in our AUM? And any kind of outlook or any kind of guidance that you would like to share over the next 2, 3 years? What kind of growth are we targeting since the worst seems to be behind us?

If we talk about next 2 quarters, definitely, we are very hopeful that our AUM will also increase, and we are sitting on unutilized credit facilities of roughly around INR 50 crores to INR 55 crores, which we thinking we'll be able to deploy in next 2 quarters. For the last quarter, the biggest challenge has been -- and that the collections were very strong and primarily because we have an escrow on all our projects and if the sales and collections are good, then the prepayments start increasing, which we have seen in last 3 months. And even our first -- 3 months of the first quarter were also reasonably good, seeing the situation at that time where most of the country was under lockdown. So in spite of that, in the first 2 -- first 6 months have been very good for the collection side. And the challenge has been a little bit as we were little cautious for first 4 months, the challenge has been on the -- little bit on the disbursement. Now for last -- in the last 2 months, we have done reasonable sanctions and disbursement in this segment also. So we are quite hopeful that the next 2 quarters, our AUM in this segment will increase and overall AUM of companies will also increase. But to give any number or percentage will be a little difficult as still COVID is not over. And we are primarily focused on those projects, which are nearing completion or which are in affordable segment. So all those opportunities coming in our area where we are only focusing in the NCR segment, where we think that we have reasonable domain knowledge or area around NCR and Chandigarh -- around Chandigarh and somewhere what -- in Jaipur side. So whatever -- so we are quite hopeful that our AUM should increase in the next 2 quarters. And I will be able to give better picture for the next coming years, I think, in the March con call. So...

Okay. Okay. Yes. And on the collection efficiency on the SME side, Rohit, the 85% ex school collection efficiency that you talked about, that is for the month of September or October?

That is for the month of September.

Okay. And how has that trend been in October and current...

So that has been same. I would not say it's very high; between 85% to 88%.

Okay. So because we also track lot of micro finance and other NBFCs focusing on SMEs and loan below INR 10 lakhs. So they -- many of these NBFCs, well-run NBFCs are reporting collection efficiency above 90%, 92%, 93%. So -- and I think month-on-month improvement in collection efficiency. So for us it is relatively a little bit lower if we are around 85%, 88%. So any views on how this collection efficiency in -- on the SME side is expected to be over the next 2, 3 months?

If you see, [ Ankit, ] we've just bisect our SME portfolio, our collections have been very good in Rajasthan and Gujarat. We have faced challenges in few of our branches in Punjab and Haryana. And otherwise, in few of our branches, our collection efficiency is more than 90% to 95% also. Few of the branches are doing even 100%. So these are few branches, namely 2 or 3 branches, where our collection efficiency is little lower. And that is also the loans which we did in the initial phase when we started our SME where our credit policies were not refined and our processes were not properly, you can say was lacking somewhat, and that was those loans where we are seeing certain challenges. And if we just take out our first year of operations, if we just take them, our collection efficiency is more than 90% in each and every branch. So I would say that was -- the first year of operations of SME if we just take out those loans, so we have done -- we are doing reasonably good. The other part which is affecting on us is the school loan, which were very, very good till before March, before lockdown, where our collection efficiency has been more than 98%, 99% in schools, and where we are down to 60% right now. And we are quite hopeful as the school open, and after opening within 2 to 3 months, we will again -- we are very hopeful that we will see that, that portfolio will also come back and -- with the same kind of collection efficiency.

Rohit, how much is the total loan book to schools? Is it just the 10% of SME unsecured book which is given to schools or some part of the secured book also includes...

Secured also we roughly around have -- around INR 22 crores in the total school segment, which includes INR 6 crores of unsecured part.

Okay. Okay. Okay. And the collection efficiency there has been...

60% to 65%.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of [ Siddharth Agarwal ] from [ Prudent Value Partner. ]

Rohit, congratulations on the good performance given the challenges in the industry. Sir, how are we seeing the real estate pickup sector demand in the NCR now?

I think I will let Chandan explain something, then I will come on this question. Chandan?

Yes. [ Siddharth, ] the overall demand that -- we are finding the traction -- too much traction in some of the areas of the NCR. Gurgaon is doing exceptionally well in the affordable. Only the high ticket size segment that is not moving well into the market. Otherwise, the ticket size less than 60% or in between 30% to 60% is picking up very well. Apart from that, the affordable segment that ranges between the -- less than INR 30 lakh to 0 -- to INR 10 lakh housing, the demand is on a very bullish side and almost all the inventories, whichever the project is launched into the affordable segment result has been balanced into the -- 1 or 2 months of the launch itself. In Noida West, definitely, the portfolio of Noida West of the housing -- retail housing in the Noida West is -- there is a lot of traction in the Noida West market and the demand is too much there. And we are finding that a lot of buyers are -- the movement is there in the housing sales side or housing demand side.

And just to add, if we just see the projects which are nearing completion and are affordable in nature and location is -- where the location is good, we are finding that reasonable traction is there, the sales have improved, where we used to see that the projects are selling between anything 0 to 10 units in a month, now they are back to, I would say, 10 to 25 units in a month, which is not very huge as compared to what it used to be in 2013, '14, but reasonably very good and mostly it is end consumer demand. So the projects which are affordable in nature in good location and certainty of getting completed are finding buyers. And those are especially in Gurgaon, where we are into wholesale small, builder floors is doing exceeding good and the same is the case in South Delhi. The only issue is with the high ticket housing projects, which are more than, I would say, INR 1 crores, INR 1.5 crores, where the demand is lukewarm. So otherwise, the sales for last 2, 3 months have been very good. And which you can also, I think, if you are reading any of those real estate commentaries also, the demand is reasonably good.

Okay. And Rohitji, we keep on hearing about a lot of consolidation that is happening on the builder side and -- so basically, the expectation is that bigger or established players are going to take larger market share, and they are going to launch more and more projects. But that is not our target segment that we try to lend. So in our target segment, the smaller builders or mid-sized builders to whom we target to lend to, do you see an appetite for them to come up with launch newer projects or launch pipeline or -- for us for -- the deal pipeline for us, how does that look?

Yes, definitely, [ Ankit, ] (sic) [ Siddharth ] the consolidation is bound to happen. Whenever we see in any industry where boom to bust happens, the consolidation is definitely going to come. And even when we say [Foreign Language] everything will go to the very large players, that may not be possible because when we talk about affordable, affordable is a segment where we have seen, if you have gone through the commentary of DLF, even the Godrej, the bigger ones, they have not entered into the very affordable kind of a segment because it's a segment where your speed, your cost control, your hold on the local area within the authorities and all those is very important and even we have good broker network. So the smaller players who have focus and with the -- who are working with reasonably good financial prudence and with right kind of good locations and financial closures, they will be able -- they will continue to come up with new projects, and a lot of our existing borrowers have launched new projects in last 2, 3 months, a little bit to our surprise also. Because -- and we also feel that there's -- lot of learning has also gone to these builders, what the mistakes they have committed earlier, they are much more prudent and much more, I would say, smart and they have learned from their mistakes. And going forward, if you ask me, I see very less -- even -- this is one of the segments where it is very good for the lenders to lend because now the borrowers have become very prudent. They are cost conscious. They are conscious of each and every cost, maybe the borrowing cost or the project cost, and they're putting lot of thought and effort before launching any project. So -- and going ahead, there will not be too much inventory [Technical Difficulty] or in the pipeline. So they will be [indiscernible] in the going forward next 2 to 3 years, we see that the supply may be less as compared to the demand. So the builders who have been good, and -- they will continue to perform better in the coming years. So for us, as a small lender, we always see that if we have got USP in terms of better financial closure of the proposals and more practical approach and with the domain knowledge, which we have built during last 7 to 8 years, we think that we'll be able to find space and we'll be able to grow our business in this segment.

Okay. Great, sir. And Rohitji, what is the collection amount in the wholesale segment during the quarter? And are our customers -- any of our customers still postponing the payments?

Customers in the sense our borrowers or the customers of our borrowers, the end consumers?

Our borrowers, are they...

No, no, more or less in the first quarter, about 66% of the borrowers have gone for moratorium. But now, in the last -- in this quarter, we have not given any moratorium to any of our customers. And moreover, if you see, our collections are more than INR 88 crores and which substantial part is prepayments. So none of the borrowers, we don't see any -- we have not seen any [Technical Difficulty] in any of our borrowers. So the collections have been very good on part of our borrowers, and the same is reflected in our collections also.

Okay. And sir, we have done exceptionally well in the wholesale LAP. So for this quarter, could you just tell us a little bit more about what is the typical duration, LTV and the IRR for this product? And from a portfolio perspective, can we do -- reach this to, say, INR 100 crores in this year, in '21?

Can I answer, Rohit?

Yes, yes, yes.

Yes. [ Siddharth, ] the thing is that the LAP is a category where we are stridently focusing into the doing loan totally against the kind of term loan structure, that is particularly against the properties, right? Only 2 or 3 loans are there, which are the kind of -- which are provided to the builder, otherwise, the -- most of the loans -- we have around 10 or 11 loans into the LAP portfolio. Most of them are to the MSME or kind of a business [indiscernible] who have availed LAP from us. The average LTV kept in the LAP size is around 45% to 50% on the maximum side, in some cases, we have 30% and on the portfolio side, the average LTV of the LAP is 40%, right? Now on the future perspective, like, we are not that much focused into the LAP, reason being that this receivable is not that much hypothecated into the LAP portfolio itself. We are focused on wholesale LAPs and wholesale small. What the receivables could be escrowed and we have exact control on the receivables part. So the LAP part, we are not seeing that much opportunity in the LAP business. Yes, we are focusing onto the LAP segment, and we are only doing LAP with those customers who are very much known to us and we are very much confident on their profile, portfolio and the business itself.

Just to add on, [ Siddharth, ] what he means to say, LAP will not be a focus area for us. It's just opportunity based. Sometimes we come across good proposals where we think that this proposal will give us good IRR and we have good strong security and the repayments are predictable. Otherwise, because as Chandan rightly explained, we are focused on only those wholesale segment portfolio where we have an escrow on the receivables, so where we get regular receivables and we have a control on their receivables. So -- and LAP is not our area where we say [Foreign Language] we can -- built a huge domain knowledge. But the real estate segment, whether it's affordable or mid housing, we think that we have reasonable domain knowledge of that segment in our area. So we'd like to continue to focus on that. It is only opportunity based, so we can't predict on the size or building up this portfolio too much.

Okay. Great Rohitji. And Rohitji, you -- in previous -- to answering while [ Ankit's ] question, you did mention that there has been some change in our credit policies, which have resulted into better collection efficiencies in the loans which have been done in the later part of -- in our branches. So could you tell us a little bit more about how -- if we have started disbursement in the SME retail side...

Hello?

Hello? Can you hear me?

Yes, yes. Now I'm able to here you.

Okay. So my question is, sir, as we started disbursement on the SME retail side, and how are we screening our potential customers? And any changes in our credit appraisals that we have done in the last, as you mentioned earlier, that there have been some changes which have resulted in better collection efficiencies for the later part of the loan. So if you could tell us a little bit more about how we have improved our credit process.

Yes. [ Siddharth, ] earlier I think in the very first year, this was 2016, '17 when we started our retail. So this was a new segment to us. So the credit policies were also evolving and even the -- over a period of time, we realized that even the processes has to be fine tuned. So -- and some even on the recruitment side. So we fine-tuned all those where the processes or policies need to be improved, maybe on the HR side, on the credit side, on the process side, where we found that there are few lapses, which we have done. So it has been a year of -- you can say a year of learning for us. And that could be for any company, which starts any new segment. And so -- what was your second question? Second part?

So -- what -- if any -- in the credit appraisal, so how are you screening our potential customers? Any changes that we have done so that we can understand how it is being done better than what it was done in the past? If anything possible to throw some light on this?

See, the kind of customers we are dealing with are those are in unorganized segment, where you don't get any bank statements or any audited accounts to fall back on and it is your [Technical Difficulty] while meeting the customer and analyzing the customer what he has done during the last 5 to 10 years about the business, what he's doing and get the references you are getting. So based on that assessment, we have built -- we have find that the credit policy is always ever evolving. Whatever we keep on learning, we keep on adding to our the credit policy part or even on the processes part. And so Chandan, if you like to just -- if you want to explain little what -- in detail how we have fine-tuned our credit policies.

Definitely. So there are a few changes there, [ Siddharth, ] that we have done majorly into our credit policy. Actually, we have divided the thing into the 2 parts. That is firstly on boarding of the client itself. So earlier, what we used to do, there are certain parameters. Like for the school loan itself we were going through the numbers. We checked the number of students from register [ section. ] But now we've added few of the parameters that soundproof our credit quality. So the parameters, the number -- actually earlier also we used to do this on the same parameters, but now what we have evolved, that the number of parameters on the [indiscernible]. Like earlier, we used -- we can -- we are able to board around 600 kind of CIBIL score customer. But now we have preset that we -- 700 would be the benchmark for -- on which we will be building up the customer base itself. Second thing, like the various parameter has been added into while appraising for different kind of the customers. Separate camps have been prepared for each kind of industry. Like for retail segment, retail shops we have built a different camp. Reason being, earlier, what we used to do that -- there would be a kind of a single camp on which the every customer was assessed on few of the parameters. But we have been built in -- during the evolution itself, we have built in the various parameters and we have evolved different kind of camps for the different industries. Like for retail, we have a different camp, for appraising a school loan, a dairy loan, we have a different camp for each and everything, right? So that is the kind of credit evaluation or credit process evaluation we did into the credit policies. Now on the credit management part, that is the portfolio management part. Earlier, what we used to -- in general -- generally on the NBFCs, what happens in the case of term loan, whenever the customer is boarded, then there is a very less requirement than the quarterly on a kind of a 6-monthly call memos are submitted on the performance of the loan itself. So we have started identifying the customer that how the portfolios are performing and based on their like performance, we started submitting the call memos itself on like, what are the reasons that the customer's cash flows are not coming on, is there any delinquency into the account. Yes, it is there. So the policy of submitting the quarterly or a 6-monthly call memo is also involved into the portfolio management part. Even like state heads, branch heads are asked to meet the customers on a yearly basis, so that a kind of portfolio review and a portfolio management -- monitoring could be done.

Great. That sounds very comforting, Chandanji. I think that would -- I think all these changes have resulted into better portfolio performance as well, and I hope this will continue on. I have a few more questions, but I will fall back in the queue and I'll let other participants ask, and I'll come back if there is time.

The next question is from the line of Ajay Sharma from Cycas Investment.

I just had a couple of questions. The first one is for Mr. Gupta. Where do you really envision the company in 5 years or even in 10 years? Do you think that the company will still be giving the same kind of loans that are still now with -- at a larger level? Or do you think the loan book might become more granular? What do you think a normal rate of growth is?

Hello?

Yes. Can you hear me?

Hello?

Yes. Can you hear me?

Hello?

Hello, can you hear me?

Mr. Gupta, we can hear you, sir.

Yes.

Should I ask my question again?

Yes, please.

Yes. So I was just asking, where do you see the company in 5, 10 years? What kind of lending products will it offer? Will it be doing the same kinds of lending that it's doing now, but at a larger level? Will it be a more granular loan book? What would a normal rate of growth be? Can you just provide your long-term vision about CSL Finance?