Curis, Inc. (CRIS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary
February 8, 2024
Earnings Call Speaker Segments
Diantha Duvall
executiveThanks for joining, and welcome to Curis's Q4 2023 business update call. Before we get started, I'd like to ask all of you to visit the investor section on our website, www.curis.com, where you can locate our Q4 2023 business update release along with the related financial tables. I also want to remind you that on this call, we'll be making forward-looking statements, which are based on our current expectations and beliefs. These statements are subject to certain risks and uncertainties, and actual results may differ materially. For additional details, please see our SEC filings. On today's call with me are Jim Dentzer, President and Chief Executive Officer, and Jonathan Zung, Chief Development Officer. We will also be available for a question and answer period at the end of our call. I'd now like to turn the call over to Jim. Jim?
Jim Dentzer
executiveThank you. Diantha, thanks as well. Good morning to all of you, and I'm glad to have you join Curis's Q4 business update call. Today, I want to open by reviewing what has happened across the last 12 months. As 2023 began, the entire biotech sector was laboring against the headwinds of a bleak financial market. Curis confronted every bit of that, plus the formidable obstacle of our leukemia study being halted under a partial clinical hold from the FDA. Despite such adversity, the Curis team met the moment. We labored without pause to respond to the questions the FDA raised. That effort involved bringing in more patients dosed at 200 milligrams BID and running further analyses. Because of this, we managed to verify emavusertib's safety profile, reach agreement on the best dosing regimen for monotherapy, and obtain the lifting of the partial clinical hold an entire quarter ahead of schedule; we then shifted our focus toward reactivating clinical sites and bringing new patients into the study; in our monotherapy trial, we are aiming at a genetically defined group of relapsed refractory AML patients who carry a FLT3 or spliceosome mutation. Accrual is proceeding nicely, and we anticipate a data update around midyear. As that trial moves forward, we have launched a frontline study testing emavusertib together with azacitidine and venetoclax for all AML patients, irrespective of mutation status. Sites in Spain, Germany, and Italy are running this study, and we look for preliminary data from it during the second half of this year. Taken together, it was a superb year of leukemia progress. Let's now shift to our lymphoma program, which is drawing an equally strong level of interest. Once we examined initial data gathered across multiple NHL subtypes, we concentrated our work on the ultra-orphan indication of primary CNS lymphoma, or PCNSL, where we are assessing emavusertib in combination with ibrutinib. We pinpointed key sites, began enrollment, and in December, we shared new clinical data in relapsed refractory PCNSL at the ASH conference in San Diego. Our physician meetings at ASH went extremely well, and we took particular pleasure in having Dr. Grzegorz Nowakowski and Dr. Han Tun from the Mayo Clinic present the data. As a reminder, high-dose methotrexate and chemo constitute frontline treatment in PCNSL. Once that stops working, no approved second-line treatment exists. In our study, three of five patients achieved complete remission of their disease. This is admittedly a small patient count; even so, the response and the enthusiasm from the clinical community proved very encouraging; in the 8 weeks since ASH, our team has been answering calls from clinical sites throughout the U.S; and Europe that want to take part in our trials. Indeed, by the end of Q1, we anticipate having twice as many clinical sites as we did a year ago. Clearly, this mirrors the excitement surrounding emavusertib, yet it also mirrors the tireless efforts of the Curis team. I could not be prouder of them. And lastly, during December, we shared news that a deal had been signed for a trial initiated by investigators, which will examine emavusertib together with pembrolizumab in metastatic melanoma patients; this gives us a chance, which we find thrilling, to build on work carried out at academic centers and the NCI, probing what emavusertib might do in solid tumors. To put it briefly, 2023 was a remarkably productive year for us, and we're eager to keep up that momentum as we move into 2024. With that said, I'll hand the call back to Diantha so she can walk us through the financial results for the quarter. Diantha?
Diantha Duvall
executiveThanks, Jim. Curis posted a Q4 2023 net loss of $11.7 million, equal to $2.03 per share, versus a net loss of $11.3 million, or $2.35 per share, during the comparable stretch of 2022. For the twelve months ended December 31, 2023, Curis recorded a net loss of $47.4 million, or $8.96 per share, against a net loss of $56.7 million, or $12.14 per share, in the same period of 2022. Net revenues during Q4 2023 came in at $2.7 million, versus $2.9 million a year earlier. For the twelve months concluded December 31, 2023, net revenues reached $10 million, against $10.2 million in 2022. Research and development expenses totaled $10 million in Q4 2023, versus $8.7 million in 2022. That rise in R&D stemmed from greater clinical development costs. Over the twelve months concluded December 31, 2023, R&D came to $39.5 million, versus $43 million in 2022. General and administrative expenses came to $4.9 million in Q4 2023, versus $4.3 million in 2022. The growth in G&A stemmed mainly from greater professional, legal, and consulting services. Over the twelve months concluded December 31, 2023, G&A came to $18.6 million, versus $19.6 million in 2022. Other income, net, was $0.5 million during Q4 2023, versus other expense, net, of $1.1 million in 2022. Over the twelve months concluded December 31, 2023, other income, net, was $0.9 million, versus other expense, net, of $3.7 million in 2022. Other income (expense), net, comprises interest income along with non-cash expense tied to the sale of future royalties. As of December 31, 2023, cash, cash equivalents, and investments at Curis came to $56.3 million, with roughly 5.9 million shares of common stock outstanding. Our cash position remains solid, and we anticipate that current cash, cash equivalents, and investments will fund planned operations into 2025. Having said that, I'd like to open the call for questions. Operator?
Ed White
analystMorning, and thanks for fielding my questions. Jim, during the primary CNS lymphoma trial discussion, you noted that the number of clinical sites currently active is twice what it was at the same point 12 months ago. Could you share the actual site count and also how many more you intend to bring on board?
Jim Dentzer
executiveSure — we generally steer clear of providing specifics on site counts at any particular moment, since that figure keeps climbing all the time. The main reason we brought it up on today's call, though, is that it mirrors the type of conference we just had. Naturally, the data left us quite encouraged. Anyone who attended ASH would have seen how packed our booth was. Since then, we've managed to bring these additional locations live and operational, and as I noted, while we don't expect the figure to double by the close of Q1, there's broader excitement worldwide, extending beyond the US. From where we sit, that's genuinely thrilling, and my hope is that we sustain this momentum moving ahead.
Ed White
analystHi, could you share your perspective regarding how large the primary CNS lymphoma market is?
Jim Dentzer
executiveAbsolutely; this is an ultra-orphan indication; that's among the reasons we chose it. If you consider the whole non-Hodgkin's lymphoma space, and every setting in which BTK is utilized, naturally, our aim has been broad. Whenever BTK is employed, you are reducing NF-κB activity through a single pathway. Many BTK inhibitors go after that route; ours is the sole one going after the alternative route. Looking throughout the non-Hodgkin's lymphoma landscape, we initially zeroed in on primary CNS because of how tiny it is, with an incidence rate of 5 per million. That produces numerous highly appealing advantages from a developmental standpoint, particularly when speaking with regulatory agencies. Additionally, among primary CNS lymphoma cases, this is a rather aggressive form of lymphoma in which we think we are able to tackle the disease rapidly. As the data showed, with 3 of 5 complete responses, we observed that within the initial 3 months of treatment. So that is quite beneficial. And naturally, no effective therapies exist. No approved medications are available for relapsed refractory PCNSL. Thus, if we are able to pursue an illness that is ultra-orphan, in which no approved therapies exist and we can witness this type of response from the drug, that is truly encouraging.
Ed White
analystOkay, thanks, Jim.
Jim Dentzer
executiveSure.
Ed White
analystAt this point, could I ask something at a high level? I want to hear how you see what solid tumors could bring to the table. You mentioned the IST that's getting underway, combined with Keytruda, in metastatic melanoma. I'm just wondering what you think about that specific market, and about solid tumors more broadly.
Jim Dentzer
executiveSure. Solid tumors are genuinely an exciting space. Of course, from the very beginning, we've been focused on identifying this target. What made it so exciting was that IRAK4's role in oncology, more broadly, was something Curis discovered, and no one else knew about it. So, as we were first engineering the molecule, we had the Pharmacyclics template in mind—specifically, how do you go after a blockbuster indication, or one with multibillion-dollar revenue potential, when no one else has figured it out yet? So we designed that molecule to perform well in lymphoma, while also providing a competitive advantage in leukemia and solid tumors too. As you know, our first trials began in lymphoma, which is, of course, where our newest data also come from, and those results are really compelling. In lymphoma, among the targeted populations we'd expect to affect—the IRAK4 or spliceosome group and the FLT3 group—those findings look really compelling; we've only just started the frontline trial, and then, as you mentioned with melanoma, this is our first step into solid tumors. Well, a lot of work has been done by the NCI and academic centers looking at emavusertib across many solid tumor types; so we know there's a lot of interesting activity going on, for instance, in bladder cancer, gastroesophageal cancer, ovarian, lung, and pancreatic. There are various solid tumors where IRAK4 appears to play a meaningful role, and where our drug might potentially provide benefit. This is our first entry into that space. I think it's a bit early to talk about how large each of those markets is, but the idea that we have a drug that seems capable of offering incremental benefit unlike any other drug in these highly targeted markets, taken one by one, and certainly at a broad level across the whole field of human solid tumors, is, is really quite exciting. In fact, in the frontline setting we could be looking at something in the range of 10% to 12%.
Ed White
analystThanks, Jim. And a last question-
Jim Dentzer
executiveSure.
Ed White
analystIf I could just ask, I wanted to hear what you think about bringing in a partner for the product in solid tumors. Would that be something you'd consider, or do you believe that as you move into solid tumors, you could finance that yourself somewhere down the line?
Jim Dentzer
executiveSure. So, yeah, I mean, look at the melanoma study as an example. Clearly, that's a trial we'd prefer not to be paying for. There are many trials, gosh, perhaps 1,000? A great many clinical trials are underway at present involving a company's drug combined with Pembro, Merck's PD-1, which is regarded by most people as the top PD-1; but in most of those cases, they plead with Merck for free drug, and then they conduct the trial. With us it's the reverse. We're going to obtain data from this trial, and we're the party supplying free drug. Merck is the one covering the cost of the study. So, obviously, what you know, what the majority of companies would wish for is simply receiving free drug. Ideally, if we're going to grow the number of clinical studies we can conduct, whether that's in lymphoma or in leukemia or now in solid tumors, at the very least, we'd want a 50/50 study. I think it's too optimistic to expect that we'll be able to have every one of our future studies be 100% funded by the partner without surrendering any rights. But right now, obviously, we're really thrilled that we're going to have the chance to get data across lymphoma, leukemia, and now solid tumors, and we can afford to do it; so as long as we can afford to retain our rights and produce the data that demonstrate this drug has such significant potential, I think that's our plan.
Ed White
analystAlright, that's great. I appreciate you taking my questions.
Jim Dentzer
executiveSure thing.
Soumit Roy
analystHello everybody, and well done on the advances across so many areas. I have one thing about the frontline, that triple combination of emavusertib, HMA, and venetoclax. You're beginning... You referred to three separate European nations. Do you also intend to open any trial locations in the U.S.?
Jim Dentzer
executiveThe second is- Jim Dentzer (A): Please continue.
Soumit Roy
analystAbout the PCNSL trials — are those being run alongside ibrutinib, or do you still intend to test emavusertib as a single agent in those patients?
Jim Dentzer
executiveLet me take the first part first. For the triplet, the opening study is aimed at selected sites where we believe we can obtain data fairly fast. Since we're at these early stages, what matters most is producing the data as speedily as possible and demonstrating that the triplet is effective. We have substantial preclinical evidence indicating that IRAK4 serves as the main disease driver in 50% of AML patients. There's a published paper, as you're aware — the Smith-Choudhary paper that came out in Nature in 2019 — which made that point. In 50% of patients, this is the top driver of disease. For the remaining 50%, it isn't the top driver, though it does act as a secondary or tertiary driver. So this really ought to deliver incremental benefit through a novel mechanism that no other drug provides. Thus, over the long term, in order to reach as many patients as possible, we would of course move to front line alongside standard of care, which is azacitidine and venetoclax. Our hope is that we can reproduce in humans what the lab showed us — namely, that adding emavusertib to AZA, to VEN, or to the AZA/VEN combination markedly boosts the efficacy of that standard of care regimen. That's what the lab work demonstrated, and once again, that's what we hope to pin down very fast, if we can, in the clinic. And naturally, we always want to check safety. AZA and VEN, as you know, are a fairly hard regimen to tolerate. They work, but they are quite difficult to tolerate. Anecdotally, 50% of all patients who start that AZA/VEN doublet end up having to stop treatment. So in the early days, what we'll do is enroll patients and verify there is no safety overlap, as we anticipate. Then second, naturally, we'll be hunting for that efficacy signal. And if you want to carry out that sort of exploration rapidly, it genuinely helps to pinpoint the sites you can concentrate on very tightly, and those are the sites we've picked to launch that study. As for your second question, could you remind me?
Soumit Roy
analystAll right, yeah, that makes complete sense. Now, regarding the PCNSL trial, do you anticipate enrolling patients in the frontline setting?
Jim Dentzer
executiveYes.
Soumit Roy
analystOr, to avoid reaching that point, do you intend to pair it with ibrutinib?
Jim Dentzer
executiveYes.
Soumit Roy
analystWhat's the strategy here?
Jim Dentzer
executiveNo, thank you — and thanks for asking. At this moment, what we're combining is emavusertib plus ibrutinib, and we're testing it in patients who have relapsed and are refractory. That's where we begin. And once more, the reasoning behind starting with pairing ema and ibrutinib — that part is obvious. When it comes to lymphoma, what pushes the disease forward in NHL patients is too much NF-κB activity. When NF-κB becomes overactive, the effect is that it interferes with how malignant cells go through apoptosis. So if a patient takes a BTK inhibitor these days, the reason for taking it is that it prevents the BCR pathway from working — and that pathway is among the two that cause NF-κB to be overactive. We understand now that this works. You see a fairly strong response rate with BTK inhibitors, and as you're aware, that's a $10-$15 billion market as of today. Of that, ibrutinib alone accounts for $10 billion — the AbbVie, J&J drug. Our aim in lymphoma is to strike NF-κB as forcefully as possible. Currently 5 large pharma companies are pursuing BTK inhibitors in different forms, whether covalent or non-covalent, and every one of them acts in essentially the same manner, each blocking the BCR pathway that activates NF-κB. The other pathway — the toll-like receptor pathway — nobody is targeting it right now. Curis is the sole company holding a drug that shuts that path down. That drug is emavusertib. It attaches to MYD88 myddosome, and absent that attachment, when IRAK4 isn't there, the myddosome along with the toll-like receptor path in general gets shut off; so logically, looking at the big picture, if a lymphoma responds well to BTK treatment, you'd always want to block NF-κB or bring NF-κB down as much as possible. That means targeting the BCR path through BTK, and targeting the toll-like receptor path through IRAK4. Using them together — not either by itself — the pairing ought to consistently outperform either agent on its own. That's what the lab showed us, and naturally, that's what we've been seeing in the clinic up to now. So that's the reasoning behind combining with emavusertib. As for moving into frontline, ultimately, sure, you know, the long-term prospect we'd like to raise and intend to investigate is whether this could become a companion frontline standard of care alongside BTK for non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. At this point it's somewhat early for that; we picked primary CNS lymphoma as our proof of concept — the indication to demonstrate it — and we've managed to show we can produce data fairly fast. But over the long run, I believe we'll certainly want to move to frontline in combination with BTK inhibitors. For the time being, having an ultra-orphan indication allowing us to enter the relapsed refractory setting, where no drugs have approval, ought to present a fairly compelling regulatory opening. That's the reason we're taking this route.
Soumit Roy
analystExcellent.
Jim Dentzer
executiveThat response went on quite a while. Hopefully it proved useful.
Soumit Roy
analystNo, you got it.
Jim Dentzer
executiveOkay.
Soumit Roy
analystWhen it comes to companion diagnostics, now that you're expanding into solid tumors, I'm wondering whether you plan to advance the companion diagnostic for the IRAK4 mutation assay, and whether that could help in segmenting the market, both within solid tumors and later on in leukemia.
Jim Dentzer
executiveYes. The brief response is affirmative. The fuller response is that it's somewhat more complex. To put it briefly, are we working toward identifying and securing the regulatory pathway for a companion diagnostic tied to IRAK4 expression? The response is definitely yes. The more complex part is that we don't want that effort to hold back our development timeline in getting this drug to patients. The way we're guaranteeing the quickest route is through monotherapy, on the leukemia side, where we intend to enroll patients who either carry a FLT3 mutation or show IRAK4 overexpression. We'll narrow the IRAK4 group by using spliceosome mutations; these spliceosome mutations represent a subgroup of patients who overexpress IRAK4. The rationale for targeting spliceosome mutations is that those mutations are already detectable in gene panels that exist today. That makes a companion diagnostic considerably simpler. There's no need for a brand-new assay to detect IRAK4. We can simply rely on the panels already available, the Illumina panel, the FoundationOne panel, and institutions like MD Anderson that have their own proprietary gene panel. Those panels are already being run on their current patients, and we can leverage that and say, "If you carry one of these particular mutations, then by definition you have IRAK4 expression," and employ that as our approach, though over the longer term, naturally, we'll want a diagnostic. On a separate note-
Soumit Roy
analystThanks once more.
Jim Dentzer
executiveThat's the rationale behind moving to frontline in combination. Our approach will be to treat all patients, so a companion diagnostic won't be required.
Soumit Roy
analystThanks once more for fielding every question, and congratulations-
Jim Dentzer
executiveOf course. Of course. I appreciate it.
Li Watsek
analystHello, and good morning. We're grateful that you've made time to field our questions. Jim, about the leukemia results you're scheduled to share around the midpoint of this year — could you perhaps help us understand what's coming, meaning which data set will be presented, and how the bar is defined both for FLT3 and for spliceosome mutations? And for the combination data arriving in this year's back half, maybe you could lay out that bar as well, given that AZA-VEN, as we all know, establishes a fairly demanding standard and works quite well. In addition, as you brought up earlier, when it comes to toxicities — would you expect any overlap in tox from this regimen?
Jim Dentzer
executiveYes. Thanks, Lee. Good to have you on the call. On those questions — starting with patient counts, we've stated all along that our goal is a data set spanning 10 to 20 patients, while at present ours consists of 3 patients in spliceosome, 3 patients in FLT3 at our target dose, and, of course, 5 patients in primary CNS. Our aim is to expand that data set to an n equals 20 to 50, somewhere inside that range. My hope is we'll get to a point where we've got data gathered. Of course, you enroll the patients, treat them, follow them over a period of time, and then evaluate the responses. I'm hopeful that we'll get to a point of having that level of n, that level of data, in leukemia, spliceosome, and FLT3 by midyear, and in lymphoma, by year-end. As for the benchmark, what we think must be achieved to be effective on the monotherapy side is a target of a CR/CRh of 20%, with a lower bound in the low teens, a 12, 13% kind of lower bound. Yet a 20% CR/CRh rate in salvage line therapy for either FLT3 or spliceosome in leukemia, we consider very compelling. Of course, our first 3 patients look better than that, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. It's only 3 patients. As we get to 10 to 20 patients, what we'd really hope is that we can clear that CR/CRh rate of 20% and be compelling. On the lymphoma side, since no existing treatments are out there, that bar is probably lower. What we do know is that the largest data set available for BTK as a monotherapy in primary CNS lymphoma was a study of 52 patients. The CR rate was 19. So you'd expect 1 out of 5 patients or again, roughly a 20% CR rate in that population, and that's in BTK-naive patients. Once they've failed BTK, you'd expect that rechallenging them with BTK yet again probably wouldn't work at all. You might expect 0 out of 5; that we're getting 3 out of 5 so far is obviously highly encouraging. Holding to that precise cadence likely isn't required, though if we're able to keep a CR rate at 20% or higher in lymphoma for individuals previously treated with BTK therapy, then I think we'd possess a pretty compelling data set for a discussion with FDA. The CR rate was 19%. So 10 to 15, pardon me, 10 to 20 patients across every indication is what we're hoping for; we anticipate being situated with data within that range for leukemia by the middle of the year and for lymphoma by the end of the year. Does that address what you asked?
Li Watsek
analystIs there any concern about toxicities stacking when you combine AZA-ven with your drug?
Jim Dentzer
executiveOh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah; that's the primary concern when you're dealing with the triplet. Naturally, it stands to reason that if you reviewed our preclinical findings — and there's a solid summary of those findings in our corporate deck — it's quite evident that when it comes to efficacy, in the lab, we managed to bring added benefit to AZA on top of AZA-VEN. And it appears that should the same consistency hold from mechanism to lab to clinic in the leukemia triplet as it has in every other setting we've examined, that's what we'd anticipate seeing. What I'd argue genuinely deserves further study is confirming — given that we know toxicity runs high with AZA-VEN — that we aren't contributing to it; we have no grounds to think that emavusertib's addition would reduce tolerability. From everything we understand, the safety profiles don't overlap; even so, as we've mentioned, fifty percent of patients who proceed to AZA/VEN struggle to tolerate it. The initial thing we'll be watching for when adding our drugs to AZA/VEN is confirming we aren't worsening those toxicities.
Li Watsek
analystUnderstood.
Jim Dentzer
executiveNaturally, efficacy is something you're always seeking. However, let's handle the basics before anything else. We need to confirm the drug can be tolerated when used alongside other treatments.
Li Watsek
analystWhat's your view regarding the maintenance setting in AML? Are there any data points you're gathering that might possibly lend support to off-label use?
Jim Dentzer
executiveClearly, off-label usage is a thing that occurs, though it isn't something companies actively pursue. What we're really seeking is this: first and foremost, is the drug safe? Second, does it have an efficacy profile that's compelling and unique, letting us deliver a level of efficacy unavailable from other drugs? And third, as you mentioned, you want to be sure the drug can be administered chronically across extended periods. You know, a few of the indications we're pursuing, such as AML, tend to be fairly aggressive, while others, such as Waldenström's, are quite indolent. There's one patient who, I believe, has now been on the drug for more than four years. So our track record is great; for emavusertib, these remain early days of drug development, but I think we've managed so far to tick all three boxes. Across nearly 200 patients tested, the drug appears to have a really good safety profile. It appears to deliver in humans the same type of clinical efficacy we observed in the lab. And it appears you can take this drug across a long stretch of time in a maintenance setting; and that's, naturally, the trifecta a drug developer hopes for.
Li Watsek
analystThank you.
Jim Dentzer
executiveYep.
Yale Jen
analystMorning, and I appreciate you fielding this. Jim, you've mentioned being keen on pursuing MDS — specifically high-risk MDS in the second-line setting — though you're holding off until the VORONAH trial reports. Based on what you know, when do you figure that could occur, and should it happen down the road, what are... what's your strategy right now?
Jim Dentzer
executiveYes. Thanks, Yale. Grateful for the question; you've got it right, and the chance in MDS appears outstanding. The clinical findings we've released thus far suggest that in MDS, exactly as was the case in AML and exactly as has been true in lymphoma, this drug seems to work on its own as a single agent. It delivers distinctive and strong anticancer activity; we'd very much like to accomplish in MDS what we're already doing in leukemia — namely, move into the front line alongside standard of care in combination, and determine if we can deliver a benefit. Could this genuinely boost how well standard of care performs? Well, with AML, we're aware of what standard of care consists of. That's AZA/VEN. My sense is that MDS development has simply proceeded a bit more slowly with AZA/VEN. Many folks anticipated it might have reported at the last ASH; at this point people are watching for ASCO. Honestly, we have no more insight than you do regarding when those will report, but we, but we do anticipate it's close at hand; and the answer is: standard of care for MDS is going to be either AZA or the AZA/VEN doublet. Should VORONAH report positively, it's AZA/VEN. Should it report negatively, it's AZA. And what we're after is knowing which of those two comes out ahead, so to speak, enabling us to then launch a combo, be it a doublet or a triplet, and find out if we can bring added benefit to that population in the front-line setting. So we're waiting eagerly just like you are, and the moment those results arrive, we'll aim to launch a frontline combination study in MDS too.
Yale Jen
analystOkay, great. That's very helpful.
Jim Dentzer
executiveSure.
Yale Jen
analystFor my second question, previously we had some expectation that you might hold a meeting with the FDA regarding the next phase of development following the AML data. Are you expecting that meeting might take place later, significantly later in this year, or do you think it could potentially be a 2025 event?
Jim Dentzer
executiveI'm not in a position to speak for the FDA about how soon that meeting will occur. Naturally, we're eager to have it happen at the earliest possible time. I believe we have the sort of drug that the FDA should probably be just as interested in as every one of our investigators is, and that's because our drug has an excellent safety profile, appears to genuinely contribute efficacy in every setting where we test it, and might deliver benefit in areas such as second-line PCNSL, where no approved drugs exist. The FDA should be open to that. So the moment we can assemble enough patients, likely somewhere in that 10 to 20 range... Based on what sort of results we get, if those results stay consistent going forward with what we've observed before, we'd aim to meet with the FDA at the earliest opportunity. And then, obviously, as you're aware, the FDA has numerous guidelines concerning when you submit and how fast those meetings take place, but we'd be somewhat bound by the FDA's scheduling on their side. Still, we're genuinely looking forward to letting you know once that call is on the docket, so we can advance these drugs as rapidly as we can.
Yale Jen
analystAll right, that's good. Perhaps we can address a final administrative item.
Jim Dentzer
executiveOf course.
Yale Jen
analystI realize you generally don't provide guidance on operating expenses, but might you offer a somewhat more directional indication regarding this year's operating expenses — 2024 versus 2023? And thanks.
Jim Dentzer
executiveYeah. Why don't I have Diantha weigh in on that?
Diantha Duvall
executiveAppreciate that, Jim. So, yeah, what we're expecting is that our opex is going to stay pretty much steady. Based on what we've told you, that $56 million in cash carries us into 2025, which works out to a burn rate somewhere around $10 million to $12 million, and it could go as high as $13 million, depending on when some manufacturing and other items land, since those tend to come in bigger chunks. But I'd say... you ought to figure on it being roughly flat compared with the prior year.
Yale Jen
analystAll right, that's excellent. Many thanks, and congratulations on the progress. I'm eager for the data readout.
Jim Dentzer
executiveThanks.
Bill Giangiri
analystHello, and congratulations. I appreciate you fielding my questions. We had a curiosity about whether anything was there. Is there anything you can share regarding strategic or partnership interest in JPM from your perspective? Then, regarding the triplet study in AML, for the patients being enrolled, could you remind us what the bars would be for that particular trial? Thank you.
Jim Dentzer
executiveAbsolutely. Thank you, Bill. As you might expect, the interest observed on the partnering side essentially reflects the interest we've received on the investigator side regarding participation in our trials. Naturally, we are continually engaged in discussions with prospective partners; and at some point, you know, I believe many folks would like to envision that we could proceed broadly with this drug in every place we think it might be effective, so that covers lymphoma in regions wherever BTK is utilized, in leukemia, AML and MDS in a frontline setting, and now in solid tumors. We've only just begun in melanoma, but as I noted, a number of other solid tumor indications have been investigated with our drug by NCI and academic centers. And Curis simply cannot afford, you know, we're too small. We cannot afford to conduct studies across all those areas. At some point, it will make sense to accelerate those clinical efforts, with assistance from a partner, both in terms of financial resources and personnel. You know, moving forward, I think it's improbable that we will secure a deal like we did in melanoma, where we don't have to surrender any rights, and we receive, just by supplying drug, we receive data; but I think at some point, that will make sense, and I would say we are not providing guidance on timing for that, but I'd say remain watchful. You know, this, this appears to be a truly compelling drug, and Curis is not the sole company that has acknowledged that. And could you remind me, Bill, of the second portion of your question?
Bill Giangiri
analystYeah, sure.
Jim Dentzer
executiveYep.
Bill Giangiri
analystYeah, that triplet. So I don't actually know how those patients present or what the eligibility criteria are.
Jim Dentzer
executiveSo I was hoping you could just explain, like, what threshold would need to be cleared for that to count as a success, and just overall— Jim Dentzer: Yeah, I think the—
Jim Dentzer
executiveYeah, so regarding the benchmarks — as I told Li Watsek over at Cantor, in those early days the bar is essentially a safety bar. We recognize that the azacitidine doublet is hard on patients in terms of tolerability. When you consider the drugs we're pairing it with, be it azacitidine or ibrutinib, all of them work, but they come with tough safety profiles. So the number one priority, if we're going to pair with those agents, is making sure we don't take a regimen that's already hard to tolerate and make it even worse. First things first — there's no reason to think our safety profile overlaps with theirs, but we have to test that in patients and confirm it, and that's easily what we're checking for first. Then, naturally, any time you're evaluating safety, once you clear that hurdle, you start watching for efficacy signals, and we want to be able to show we can replicate in the clinic, with the triplet, what we've achieved across all our other trials so far — namely, reproduce the preclinical findings and demonstrate that adding emavusertib, that hitting this novel cancer driver in IRAK4, that going after that target delivers incremental efficacy beyond what current standard of care provides. If we pull that off, I'd call it the home run. Safety comes first, but obviously we'll be watching for efficacy too. I hope that answers it.
Bill Giangiri
analystWonderful.
Jim Dentzer
executiveYep.
Bill Giangiri
analystYeah, and I suppose this is my final question. I simply want to confirm, to ensure I'm not considering this the wrong way. It appears you're already meeting the duration threshold in CNS lymphoma, correct? We just need that data set to expand.
Jim Dentzer
executiveYeah, I believe that's precisely correct. In fact, I think the dataset appears fantastic-
Bill Giangiri
analystAll right.
Jim Dentzer
executiveThat appears considerably stronger than what would be required for us. However—
Bill Giangiri
analystYeah.
Jim Dentzer
executive...we're still at an early stage — 3 out of 5. So once we move to 10, and after that to 20 patients, as I mentioned, the thing we have to demonstrate, I believe, is this: suppose you had 20 people with primary CNS lymphoma under treatment whose disease had progressed after high-dose methotrexate and chemo — these days they would be put on BTK, they would be put on ibrutinib. According to the biggest trial conducted on ibrutinib as a single agent, with a CR rate of 19, you would anticipate a response in 4 among those 20 patients. So let's round it up slightly and say 20. You would require 4 CRs from 20 patients. In our situation, we're at 3 of 5. To merely equal that earlier line, we need to enroll 15 additional patients and achieve one more CR. That's because, keep in mind, every one of our patients has already failed ibrutinib. If you were to rechallenge them with ibrutinib, you would anticipate 0 out of 20. So for us, if we can equal that prior line — getting 4 out of 20, or 1 additional CR among the next 15 patients — I believe we have a genuinely compelling discussion to bring to FDA, and honestly, I think our chances are quite good in that scenario.
Bill Giangiri
analystGreat. Thank you.
Jim Dentzer
executiveYou bet. Thank you.
Jim Dentzer
executiveAndrea, thanks — and thanks to all of you for being on today's call. As we always do, we want to express our gratitude to the patients and families who take part in our clinical trials, to the Curis team for the effort and dedication they bring, and to our partners at Aurigene and the NCI for the continued assistance and backing they provide. We're eager to bring you another update before long. Operator?
Operator
operatorThat brings us to the end of this call. We appreciate your joining us for today's presentation, and you're free to hang up at this point.
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