Dürr Aktiengesellschaft (DUE) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Dürr Conference Call for the preliminary figures for the first half of 2025, followed by a Q&A session. [Operator Instructions] Let me now turn the floor over to your host, Mathias Christen. Please go ahead.

Thank you very much. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. This is Mathias Christen from Dürr AG's Investor Relations team. Thanks a lot for joining us at short notice after last night's our talk announcement. Technical advice, the presentation slides for today can be found on our website, and we assume that you have it in front of you. Please note that this call replaces the call announced for the publication of our Q2 results, so there will be no further call on August 7. As usual, the call will be hosted by our CEO, Jochen Weyrauch, who is joining us from a business trip to China today; and of course, by our CFO, Dietmar Heinrich, who is with me. After the statement performed by Jochen and Dietmar, we will be happy to answer your questions. Now I hand over to Jochen. Please go ahead.

Thank you, Mathias. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Also a warm welcome from my side today out of Shanghai. Following our announcement yesterday, it is important to us to get in touch with you as soon as possible. Let's start on Page 3 of the presentation. Looking at the second quarter, there are a few things to note. First, I'm sure you're well aware of the geopolitical environment and its implications. The fragile environment in trade policies caused significant investment uncertainty. As a result, we recorded weak order intake in Q2. Furthermore, we have also observed a much slower-than-expected development in the e-mobility segment. Again, this is partially due to political reasons as, for example, subsidies in Germany had expired end of 2023. Whilst we see the long-term trend regarding e-mobility being intact, the momentum currently slowed down. This is affecting our automation business and was an important factor for the noncash impairment announced yesterday. Despite the political headwinds, we are consequently pushing ahead with turning Dürr into a lean, sustainable automation group. The successful sale of our Environmental Technology business marks an important milestone in that regard. It also leads to a significant book gain, which we'll use to further transform the company as we enter into the next phase of our transformation process. As indicated end of June, we have now defined the framework for the reorganization of our administrative functions. As a result of all those developments, we see different effects on our full year outlook. We adjust our forecast for the order intake However, as the various extraordinary effects related to the admin cuts, the impairment and the book gain compensate each other, at the same time, we confirm our guidance for the EBIT margin before extraordinary effects and our net income 2025. Now Dietmar will walk you through the numbers, starting on Page 5.

Thank you, Jochen, and hello, good morning or good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Moving to Slide #5, you can see the impact of yesterday's announcement on our guidance. Please note that all figures relate to the continued business and that the earnings figures of the continued operations are burdened by negative allocation effects, which would normally be attributable to the discontinued Environmental Technology business. In the first half of the year, the allocation effects in EBIT before extraordinaries amounted to EUR 6 million. Due to the macroeconomic environment, we had to adjust our outlook for order intake. The so-called Liberation Day on April 2 created massive uncertainty, which prompted customers to adopt a wait-and-see attitude. This affected order intake. However, most pipeline projects have only been postponed but not canceled. Despite somewhat softer revenues, we are confident that we will achieve our forecasted range even if it will be at the lower end of the range of 4.6 -- to EUR 4.6 billion. Nevertheless, we confirm the outlook for the EBIT margin before extraordinaries and net income as we expect a high book gain of EUR 160 million to EUR 190 million after tax from the Environmental Technology deal, compensating the extraordinary expense of EUR 40 million to EUR 50 million for the admin adjustment and the impairment, which will be in the range of EUR 110 million to EUR 130 million. As the impairment has not been booked yet, we cannot state net income and the EBIT margin after extraordinaries for the first half of the year-to-date. These figures will be published as scheduled on August 7. The guidance for the EBIT margin before extraordinary effects remains unchanged at 4.5% to 5.5%. The guidance for the EBIT margin after extraordinary effects had to be adjusted to minus 1% to 0% as the book gain is not considered within the continued operations. So let's jump to Page 6, which I will only want to touch briefly. The graph shows that Q2 was really an exceptional quarter. EUR 800 million of order intake is in no way normal, but a result of the uncertainty after the tariff announcement in April. Please also note that last year's Q2 and especially Q1 were boosted by several very large orders. So we also have a strong base effect to consider. Page 7 shows the sequential sales development, some delays in the execution of large automotive projects had an impact on year-to-year date on year-to-date sales. However, this has nothing to do with the uncertain macro environment. Moreover, sales were affected by low orders on hand in Woodworking and Industrial Automation. Nonetheless, we are confident to catch up in the second half and to reach the lower end of our guided range. Page 8 shows that despite stable sales, we were able to improve the EBIT margin before extraordinaries in Q2 versus Q1. This was mainly due to remarkable gross margin improvements in the Equipment business, reflecting our successful value before volume strategy. The profitability in Equipment business helped to compensate for the slightly lower levels in service business as customers cut service spending in order to protect their margins given the unsecure environment. Another highlight shown on Page 9 is the strong free cash flow in Q2, benefiting from appreciable prepayments and low contract assets. This is a proof point that we are able to collect cash even during tough times. Let's have a short view on the divisions, starting with Page 10. Order intake in Automotive was EUR 100 million lower in Q2 than in Q1. We managed to secure some larger projects, for example, in Southern Europe. Order intake for smaller conversion jobs during our customer summer shutdowns was weaker than usual, reflected in muted spending behavior. But these conversions have only been shelved but not completely disappeared. Automotive's EBIT margin was very strong in Q2 and surpassed the 7% mark already achieved in year-to-date. With this, let's move on to Industrial Automation. The figures for industrial automation on Page 11 are somewhat weaker than last year. However, we need to differentiate the Medtech Automation business has been developing well in terms of order intake and Schenck's balancing technology business is also on track. On the other hand, order intake in automation technology for the automotive powertrain sector remained moderate due to the slow progress on e-mobility. Moreover, battery business is struggling with a difficult market environment. Please also note that the gap between this year and last year is partly caused by the deconsolidation of Agramkow mid-2024. In H1 2024, Agramkow still contributed a good EUR 25 million in sales and above average rates. The division Woodworking, as shown on Page 12 is still operating in a difficult market environment and the additional fragility caused by Q2's trade policies did certainly not help to promote confidence. Order intake and sales almost matched last year's level and the margin has clearly improved, thanks to last year's cost cutting. A further positive aspect is that business with the wooden house industry continues to pick up with more large-scale projects being planned again. Furniture related business is still subdued even though our customers indicate an increasing modernization need. Yes, summarizing the figures you can see then on Page 12 -- Page 13, sorry, a complete overview of the outlook, all items that we are adjusted are marked in blue as we already touched the guidance at the beginning, I would like to point out that the revised outlook for the divisions will be published in conjunction with the final H1 numbers on August. Now let's move on to the next page, Page 14, to explain the impairment that will be included in our H1 figures. The impairment relates to our business unit production automation system, which is part of the Industrial Automation division. The attributable goodwill is around EUR 240 million. The impairment will roughly cover half of this. The reason for the impairment mainly lies in the much slower-than-expected development in the e-mobility segment. The long-term trend continues to be intact, but the momentum slowed down substantially. However, we remain convinced that automation will become even more important in the future. This is due to labor scarcity, reshoring and increasing volume and quality demands for many products manufactured on our machines. And regarding e-mobility. Our customers remain convinced of its huge potential. This makes us confident to benefit from higher CapEx spending in the foreseeable future. And this is one reason why we invested in this business. I would also like to highlight that our automation business goes far beyond supplying the automotive industry, especially the Medtech sector is highly attractive. Order intake in this business is growing nicely as we have been able to position ourselves as a global partner for Medtech production lines, a strategy that is well received by many large medical corporations. And with this being said, I would like to hand over to Jochen again.

Thank you, Dietmar. We would now like to comment on the execution of our sustainable automation strategy and on why we see ourselves well prepared for the next economic upswing. In early June 2024, we presented our plan to simplify our group structure and implement the sustainable automation strategy. The concrete targets can be seen on Page 16. We focusing on the core business with automation as our lead technology, reduce the number of divisions from 5 to 3, become leaner and more agile in our corporations and reduce the debt leverage to around 1% or below using the proceeds from an active portfolio management. One year later, we can confirm that we delivered what we announced. Let's have a look at the next slide. The most ambitious step of our sustainable automation transformation was the sale of the Environmental Technology business. Despite an adverse M&A environment, we were able to sell the business based on an enterprise value of EUR 385 million. Moreover, we expect a high book gain of EUR 160 million to EUR 190 million after tax. The definite amount will be fixed according to the valuation details on the closing date. Going to the next slide. With the Environmental Technology sale, we will reach our transformation target of a lean structure with 3 instead of 5 divisions. As you may recall, at the end of last year, we also integrated the former 2 Automotive divisions into one powerful division. The continuing activities that are forming to reshape the group are serving different markets but have only one joint purpose. They are all automating production processes and help customers to produce in a sustainable manner. This is why we call it sustainable automation. Moreover, our group becomes leaner and we can spend full management attention on the core business. This goes in line with a more entrepreneurial governance in the group. The division management teams will have more leeway to take business-specific decisions and to reach the targets. This will promote agility and further reduce complexity. But with the new divisional structure, we are not at the end of the journey as we will show on the next slide. Our adjustment of the group structure also resulted in a sales reduction of around 10%. Consequently, we have reviewed our administrative structures to adapt them to the new company size and at the same time, make it more efficient. After thorough review, in the next step, we will take action and cut some 500 admin jobs until the end of 2026. This measure also reflects the new governance structure with more entrepreneurial leeway for the 3 divisions. And it allows for better cost structure and is an effective contribution to self-help, given the economic and geopolitical uncertainties. We expect annual savings of around EUR 50 million. This will become fully effective by 2027 with part of the savings already materializing earlier. The extraordinary expense for the measures will amount to between EUR 40 million and EUR 50 million and will be booked in H2. As mentioned, this expense as well as the impairment loss in Q2 will be offset by the book gain from environmental technology. Let's move on. The adjustment of the group administrative structure is another milestone in our transformation process, which has been going on for around 1 year now. All actions that we look -- that we took, sorry, at one go, aligned under the motto of sustainable automation. Apart from the measures I have just outlined, we delivered further milestones, such as the sale of Agramkow, the consolidation of the automotive business, a lean organization and reduce fixed cost at HOMAG, already improving results year-to-date at lower revenues and the integration of our automation activities. After all these measures, we are confident that Dürr is well equipped to tackle the coming months and years. Let me now on the next slide, provide our view on the coming months. All the measures presented strengthened our resilience and put us in a good position to benefit from the next upswing. We cannot change the toxic uncertainty created by trade policies, but we're doing our homework, and we'll be well prepared when our markets will pick up again. In automotive, we still see a solid order pipeline as customer projects have only been postponed but not canceled. Modernization pressure continues to be high as many paint shops are outdated with deficits in terms of productivity and energy efficiency. And our new setup with one unified Automotive division has made us even more robust. In Industrial Automation, there is plenty of upside potential for our e-mobility business. This will materialize with rising consumer confidence, a more reliable regulatory environment and the availability of more affordable e-car models. Moreover, I want to point out the good development in the Medtech business and Schenck's balancing technology. HOMAG lowered its fixed cost base by EUR 50 million and widened its technological lead as could be clearly seen on the LIGNA trade fair. We see the construction market picking up with more large projects in the wooden house sector being flat. This business, HOMAG has the opportunity to return on its growth path interrupted in 2022 and differentiate itself as the #1 partner for the industrialized production of housing modules. Based on that, I want to summarize the next slide. Despite the uncertain macro environment, we continue to implement our sustainable automation strategy, transforming into a clearly focused automation group. We proactively adopted short-term measures against the subdued situation in core markets, such as hiring freezes and spending cuts. On top, we announced admin restructuring, we are creating leaner, less complex processes and structures and are striving for sustainable cost savings of EUR 50 million per year. Based on this, and the optimization measures implemented in the last 2 years, we are well prepared to benefit from an improved market environment. Finally, we stick to our earnings guidance for 2025, and we continue to put full emphasis on profitability. Thank you very much. Now we're looking forward to your questions.

[Operator Instructions] And the first question goes to Nikita Lal of Deutsche Bank.

So first of all, thank you for all the details you gave us on the ad hoc, I think it's really helpful for the market to understand what the issues were in Q2. Two questions. First on Industrial Automation. You mentioned that the low sales is a consequence of the low order intake in 2024. The order intake in 2025 is even lower year-to-date. Can we expect to see ongoing weak business here in the foreseeable future? And related to that, how do you intend to change the situation? What can you do to improve the situation in Industrial Automation and protect the margin? And the second question is on the proceeds from the sale of the Environmental business. Are there any plans for the proceeds? Or are you just using it for deleveraging?

Thank you, Nikita, for your questions. First on Industrial Automation, right, 2025 was lower even than 2024. We've seen, especially in Industrial Automation in Q2, which was very weak at our -- the BBS business being at around EUR 60 million. But what we're already seeing in July is that some of the delayed larger orders are kicking in. So that will be pretty good months. Is that already the turn, don't know because there is still some uncertainty, but I'm quite confident that orders will pick up definitely better than Q2. And yes, your question in terms of improving, we cannot change the environment. But what we are constantly doing, and this is actually why I'm also in China right now. I spent my full week on Industrial Automation, seeing customers understanding and I see potential on the one hand, also from projects. On the other hand, we're also working on the bottom line. We have fully integrated the group as of June under one identity. We are bringing entities together like we have been merging 2 companies here in China. We've reduced significant capacity in Germany. We are bringing the sales teams together. We're pushing, as we were mentioning, the areas that we have currently more in our hands like the Medtech business, and that is -- that will be paying off. The e-mobility side will remain challenging for a little while, but you will definitely see improved earnings in the second half of the year for that business. For the proceeds from the sale of the Environmental business so far, we're using the proceeds to get our EBITDA leverage below 1, which gives us good comfort on the balance sheet. We're not planning any significant M&A activity in the short future. It's more, as we had announced to further improve the efficiency of the group. And then whenever there is accretive, but rather smaller, maximum midsized M&A opportunities. I'm not ruling it out, but that's currently not the focus.

And the next question goes to Sven Weier of UBS.

There's a few. First one is on the order guidance, the new one. So if I understood you correctly, Q2 orders should be the trough, and we should already see an improvement sequentially. And I was also wondering about the pricing environment that you currently see. Obviously, I guess, in such a tough market, it's not so easy to achieve your value strategy, but we are curious on your thoughts. That's the first one.

Thank you, Sven, good question. Yes, Q2 was, as Dietmar mentioned, exceptionally weak. We have seen many projects slipping than I was just mentioning for Industrial Automation, at least, we have a few good examples in July, where we could already book orders that were foreseen earlier. Again, there's still a disclaimer to it. We'll have to see how things continue. In terms of the pricing, what we currently see, there is not really a significant effect. If we look especially at our equipment margins, they remain very good here and there, we have to negotiate. It's sometimes more about payment terms than pricing. But of course, pricing is always there and will always be there, especially in automotive. But I don't see -- and we are also following our -- continue to follow our value before volume strategy. So I don't expect significant margin erosion on the order intake.

And going to what Dietmar said just in terms of pipeline that most of the orders have been postponed, but does it mean that some orders have also been canceled in the pipeline at least?

There is -- first of all, just to be clear, we don't see cancellations in the order book. So we're talking about the pipeline. And in the pipeline, yes, there is sometimes and more so now a project that disappear in a certain region, they might show up in another region. Some are popping up again. So there is more dynamics. And in some cases, yes, there is projects that are put on hold and some even for the time being stalled. But again, especially also on the automotive side. We've had an exceptional last year, but it is not that we are not seeing a pipeline. Actually, it's -- yes, I would say, solid is still the good way to phrase it.

And then on the Industrial Automation business, the goodwill impairment that you did, is that everything entirely market related? Or have you also found some maybe internal execution issues in BBS business after the closing of the deal?

The impairment is purely market-driven. We have in the first year after acquisition, we've had a couple of projects that I would call it needed special attention and some of them have probably not turned out as good as we would have expected. But this is what we -- that was the work basically of the first 12 months. So we currently don't see projects which -- all the projects that are now booked anyways are projects that have been booked under our ownership. Now that's not the trigger. The trigger really is the market side and consequently, order intake, which, in the end, of course, has led in some cases to under-absorption, which we have to a large extent, compensated by capacity reduction, but the driver for the impairment is the -- that we had to adjust basically the business case from a top line perspective going forward. And this then from the model with a higher better factor in the business also now led to the impairment, which we have specified.

Final question for me, if I may, just on the EBIT margin guidance. Here, you have not qualified it any further the adjusted one. So should we take that, that all ends of that guidance are still possible? And then also a technical question because you mentioned those EUR 6 million allocation effects. Will they go then away in the second half and actually help you to achieve the guidance? Or how do I need to get this technically?

I think that's a good one for Dietmar.

Therefore -- of course, the margin is a little bit under pressure based on the reduced sales. Nevertheless, we expect a strong execution in the second half of the year. So I think it's too early to really say what's happening right now and to position within the guidance range. So let's move on with the midpoint, first of all. Secondly, regarding the allocation effect, yes, at that point in time, when the closing is being done, we will charge this then in conjunction with the transitional service being executed over a period of roughly a year than to the independent entity and accordingly, the expense on our side that are today recorded in the continued operations will then be -- will actually disappear.

So is it that you don't have the EUR 6 million anymore, but do you also get negative EUR 6 million back from the first half? Or is that going to stay in the...

No, no, no, it's not this will remain. So for last year, the total number was EUR 17 million. We expect actually a similar number for the complete year this year, which means that we will have actually a pushout of around EUR 3 million to EUR 4 million for the last 2 months and then for the next year.

And the next question goes to Philippe Lorrain of Bernstein.

Yes. I just wanted to ask very briefly again what I have understood correctly, but the goodwill impairment is related to BBS automation? Or is it related to the Teamtechnik group? That's the first. And then I'll follow up with a couple more.

Yes. Thanks Philippe for the question. Teamtechnik to say quite blunt is doesn't exist anymore. This is part of the BBS Group. And consequently, in technical terms, it's part of the cash-generating unit we are now talking about.

Okay. So yes, there is no difference. Okay. Then the second one was to follow up a little bit on what you said on the order intake pipeline basically and that actually it still remains solid. And that you saw here and there, like a few more orders come in, in July, but you are not quite certain about reaching a turning point. I was wondering whether maybe you would go as far as saying that there's going to be at a later stage, the materialization of pent-up demand because all these orders that did not come in Q2 and maybe won't come like through the remainder of the year will come maybe next year or so? What -- how do you see that right now?

Yes, that's -- it's a good question, which let me try to answer it as follows. Yes, we see a lot of projects that are delayed. Some of them would definitely would have been booked if the world would be clearer. And consequently, I assume that there will be some pent-up demand. When it will be kicking in and how strongly we will have to see. I mean if you just to use a different division, woodworking, I mean, on the one hand, and that's good to see that we have significantly improved profitability on a low sales level, but we don't see a real pickup in the market and where we would say immediately, there is too many projects right now that are just deferred. So it's a bit different by business. And yes, there is an element that we will see more orders coming once the world hopefully is a bit clearer how strong that will be and when it will kick in, very difficult to say at the moment.

Yes. I understand. And then I have 2 more questions. So the first one is also like probably a bit more of a housekeeping one. So you mentioned that you want to cut around 500 admin jobs. I was wondering how much -- how many admin shops you had like at the end of last year in the -- or how many you have in the still existing group structure, so maybe like just a continued operation at this stage or by how much do you cut into that? And also, what are the thoughts you've given to any risk to the integrity of the still existing group structure as well because sometimes companies tend to cut a little bit too much into these functions and then there are negative surprises down the road.

Yes, the 500 jobs, let me answer the question indirectly, is somewhere between 15% to 20% of our admin community, if I may call it like this. So from that, you can guess a rough number. Is it too much or not enough. This is always the debate you have in processes like this. We have been going through a very intense exercise internally that makes us believe that we have found the right amount. Yes, we want to significantly reduce costs. On the other hand, of course, we don't want to jeopardize our business. And we consequently believe that this is the right rightsizing.

The 15% to 20% of the admin communities for the continued operations?

Yes.

Yes. Okay. Perfect. Perfect. And then like a final question, maybe also one that you might elaborate on is basically, you mentioned e-mobility is a bit weak, especially in the automation business. Are you giving like especially with regard to your strategy of simplifying the group structure and so on, are you giving like any thoughts to the specific kind of activity since it's been quite sluggish and maybe there is not as much market focus or i.e., customer focus on that in the future?

What do you mean by -- Philippe by customer focus, you mean from the own organization or...

Yes, I'm saying like worldwide, we are speaking a bit less about ESG topics right now, especially with the positioning in the U.S. and all these kind of things. So perhaps this is not going to be like such a big priority for your customers, let's say, as it was like 2 years ago?

I mean some of the customers definitely are rethinking their approaches. I mean you can read it in press in Europe, in Germany, that the struggle some of the OEMs basically all of them now have, if they're not just pure EV anyways, that the transformation from the internal combustion engine to pure electric is happening now slower, which consequently means for some of the OEMs that they have to renew in parallel to the e-mobility strategy still the internal combustion engine model. So they have currently double spending, which of course creates scarcity on CapEx and that all is creating a difficult time. Plus, we do business with the Tier 1s and the OEMs. There is a transformation from a lot of business from the Tier 1s to the OEMs and this all still has to sort out. We have a pretty good market insight, obviously, through the existing BBS organization when it comes to their traditional business, especially on the Tier 1 side. And this is, of course, one of the synergy fields that we have addressed that we're using the very strong Dürr sales network, including sometimes even myself, to promote, especially with the OEMs, our products. So I believe there a lot of attention. It is simply that the market is sluggish at the moment. And we've also partially addressed that in my comments in our battery business. So the electrode coating business. I mean, if you look at what's happening in Europe, for example, to some of the battery manufacturers, also, it is a period of, I would say, consolidation and redefinition of the strategy. So we're well positioned. We are also further developing our dry coating technology. But of course, we will have to have the customer base in Europe and North America. Asia is a different [ animo ]. Sorry for the long answer.

And the next question goes to Peter Rothenaicher of Baader Bank AG.

Firstly, another question on automation. So now you have, in particular, e-mobility business, a much bigger slum than initially expected. Does this mean that you have to restructure to reduce capacities to a bigger extent than plan so far? And do you think there might be higher one-offs for restructurings and initially expected?

Thank you, Peter. We have already significantly reduced capacities as we go. For example, in Germany, only actually in our location near Bietigheim [indiscernible] or Ludwigsburg. It's more than 200 people that we've taken out since the acquisition and also in some other places. So our assumption is that we've done basically by far most of the work. There might be adaptations and reductions here and there, but we don't see that being a significant amount, at least an amount worthwhile talking about in this round or an amount that would create kind of an extra accrual beyond normal business. So this -- we've done a lot already. And a little bit probably still to come, but in the course of the normal business. And then of course, we assume that at some point, the business comes back, but the capacities are not much above what we need.

Okay. Another question regarding the overheads for the environmental technology business which you sold. One of your arguments for the reduction in administration was that your group is now leaner. So do you expect that buyer of the environmental technology business will take less of your overhead services than in the past. So what is here your view? And to what extent is the reduction in the administration workforce related really to this?

Yes, it's a good question. There is some -- can we assure that proportionally the buyer would take over the same amount of people. Probably not. This is also why we've announced one reason being that we will lose about 10% of turnover with the sale and consequently have to adjust. So some piece of the number I've just mentioned can be attributed to this. And another piece of this is consequently to reduce cost also proportionally within the ongoing or continued operations.

Okay. Then regarding the sale of the Environmental Technology business, you have taken over 25% share in this business. Does it exist a put option? And what are your plans with this 25% shares?

Yes. It is for transactions of that side in private equity. It is -- it's quite usual that there is a reinvestment from the seller. So this is why we've agreed an amount, which we believe is absolutely fine. For us, what makes us comfortable is, of course, it is a private equity investor and not too much referring to the details of the agreement. But of course, us being the minority partner in that business, there is the typical structure of tag along, drag along. So whenever the private equity firm exits, we will exit alongside.

Okay. And my last question is on your medium-term guidance. So you're still out with a guidance of around EUR 6 billion sales by 2030 and at least 8% adjusted EBIT margin. In the past, you said probably you will be able to achieve this in 2027. What is your view on these targets now with let's say, much weaker 2025 than expected and persisting uncertainties?

Yes. In what we always call the mid-cycle market, the profitability target continues to be there. On the precise sales number, after the divestiture of the business at this point, we would not give a statement. So this would be something once the situation is clearer and probably a bit of a feeling when we come out with the guidance then for 2026.

Okay. But the 8% adjusted EBIT margin still persisting?

Yes. If you look at the business that we run, absolutely because automotive has proven that they can do it as a combination, and there is still synergies there. HOMAG, we have described, we are at more than 5% in a very low cycle point. So 8 to 10, and we've said the target is at some point to reach 10% is feasible. And now we need to do the homework to some extent, in industrial automation and wait for the markets to come back. So if you add that all together, this is what makes us confident that the target remains in place.

And the next question goes to Claudia Mocek of Bietigheimer Zeitung.

Half of the job cuts are planned in Germany, how many jobs will be cut in Bietigheim, do you know that?

Thanks for the question. We cannot specify exactly at this point. So we said around half, as you said, will be in Germany. And we still have to specify. And of course, we have to first synchronize with the employee representatives before we can come up with any idea which location will be affected by which amount.

And are redundancies planned for operational reasons?

The redundancies that we are currently planning are driven, as we had explained by the company shrinking by about 10%. But at the same time, we're also looking at the current market environment, we want to make the company more resilient and more efficient.

Ladies and gentlemen, at the moment, there seem to be no further questions. [Operator Instructions] Okay. And we have another question. It goes to Adrian Pehl of ODDO BHF SE.

Actually, coming back again on the order intake, obviously, very important topic. I understood that you said there are quite some pushouts on customer projects on one hand. On the other hand, I was just curious to hear again a couple of thoughts on the outlook because it seems like that, let's say, the quarter missed some, what is it, EUR 200 million, EUR 250 million of intake, but you're taking down the guidance a little more. I mean, you referred already to, I guess, probably some automotive projects that are pushing out to the right. But on the other hand, what is it -- what clients are telling you? What would they need actually to, let's say, unwind this uncertainty in the second half? Is it more kind of something specific on how the geopolitical situation is going? Or is it something different? And including what we have been discussing in Germany, i.e. the invested [ Jones booster ]. It seems that there's nothing that makes you more confident on getting additional business in the second half from this? Or am I wrong here? And third question related to the orders is on the phasing, I mean, you referred to industrial automation already to some degree that July has been obviously better, but I was wondering, in general, how the second quarter was in terms of phasing per month when we look at the order intake. So has it been better in June already? Or is that not necessarily been something that you would highlight? And then I might have a follow-up on the restructuring.

Yes. Thank you, Adrian, for your questions. Starting with the how the look by month. In our case, to look by an individual months in our business doesn't really help because things move back and forth. Why did I highlight July because, fortunately, and in Industrial Automation, we have seen at some examples that some of the orders that we're pushing out have kicked in now in July, which will make it a good month. This is why when it was asked earlier on this call, is this a turning point or not, we will have to see a real -- I don't see that everything will be bright from today on. So we will have to see how things develop. But I can already assume is that third quarter will be better than the second quarter, which at least is an okay message for. The order intake in general and what would need to happen is I can only refer to the discussions I have, especially with the large OEMs who cannot calculate currently their profitabilities because do they have to assume 50% when they ship a car from Europe in the future to the U.S. Do they have to calculate 15 or even 100%. And that, of course, makes them nervous. And at the same time, if they then say, okay, if I think about the scenario of high tariffs. And consequently, I have to invest in U.S. It will take at least 2 rather than 3 years after I have taken the decision that the first car will be produced locally. And then they are not even sure whether they will have the labor available in the U.S. because as you all know, the U.S. loses a lot of operational labor as we speak. So this is the sort of uncertainty that basically hinders any real decision making. How quickly certainly will come back. Hard to say. And because as we all know, there was a deadline given of August 1. Will this deadline August 1 really be there and we will all know what's going to happen. Will the EU come to an agreement or not? Will everything change again in September? This is very difficult to say right now. This is where from the pipeline and the bookings that we had in the first half, we said it is from the current point of view. And if we look into the project pipeline and give it a realistic probability, we decided that the guidance that we had given before is very unlikely. But if you talk to our division management of the different divisions, the spread of what could happen during the course of the year is bigger than it has ever been. I know this is not a very precise answer to your question, but that's as good as I can give it at the moment.

No, that's fair. I mean no one has the crystal ball at the moment, maybe Mr. Trump, I don't know. And then maybe one thought on the invested [ Jones booster ] would be helpful. But another question, last one that I had was on the restructuring. Just to get my head around. I mean, I see that on the holding side, the headcount is now below 900. Not quite sure if you want to phrase a target for the holding in terms of headcount. And how much of the job cuts that you have announced is going in that direction? And how much is going into the segments? That was it from my side then.

Maybe first on the invested [ Jones booster ]. If I put that in a bigger perspective, at least, we now have a government in place that is listen to business, which I find is a very positive contrast to what we had before. So will this invested [ Jones boost ] help companies in Germany? Yes. Of course, they were -- some of them will reduce their profits because they can depreciate faster. But in the end, of course, the idea is to generate lower taxes and consequently, higher cash flows, which I appreciate as an approach. We need more to come. We need the whole country to speed up and get rid of some of the bureaucratic restrictions. But again, let's be a little bit optimistic and give it the benefit of the doubt, at least. There is now a government in place where I at least noticed a genuine interest in fixing things in terms of starting with the economy first because if we destroy the economy, you can start distributing money as much as you can. In the end, it doesn't work. Maybe that as a comment to the invested [ Jones booster ]. On the restructuring, the way we look at it is not the 900 holding jobs. The way we look at it is the overhead in the group. And that overhead distributes over the holding over our, what we call service companies and the overhead in the divisions. And this all together, coming back to the question that Philippe said, I asked them, I gave an indirect answer. That's what we're looking at. While we do this, we will also -- we will significantly reduce the holding, but not just by laying off all the people, but by also redistributing responsibilities either to shared services, where there is a defined scope of synergies by providing those services to the group or directly into the business of the divisions because we're totally convinced that this is now, first of all, feasible because we only have 3 instead of 5 divisions; and second, necessary in order to make our organization more agile and take decisions closer to the business.

Ladies and gentlemen, we didn't receive any further questions. So let me hand back over to your host for some closing remarks.

Well, thank you. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for the discussion. If there are further questions, I guess there will be further questions, don't have hesitate to call us. Just as a reminder, there will be no further call on August 7 because I think we touched all the details today. But you will find an updated version of our presentation, giving all the details you are usually familiar with our quarterly reporting. And of course, you will see the full report and the divisional guidance on August 7 on the Internet. Until then, and stay safe, and I wish you pleasant day. Take care. Bye-bye.