Ddev Plastiks Industries Limited (543547) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Ddev Plastiks Industries Limited Q2 FY '26 Earnings Conference Call hosted by PhillipCapital Private Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Rutu Chavan from PhillipCapital Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Good morning, everyone. On behalf of PhillipCapital Private Client Group, I welcome all of you to the Q2 H1 FY '26 Earnings Conference Call of Ddev Plastiks Industries Limited. Today, from the management, we have Mr. Narrindra Suranna, Chairman and Managing Director; Mr. Dev Surana, Whole-Time Director and CEO; Mr. Rajesh Kothari, Whole-Time Director; and Mr. Arihant Bothra, Chief Financial Officer. I now hand over the conference to Mr. Dev Surana for his opening remarks, and then we will open the floor for questions and answers. Over to you, sir.

Good morning. Welcome to the Ddev Plastiks Quarter 2, half yearly financial year earnings call. We appreciate your time and continued interest in our journey. Yesterday, our Board of Directors approved the financial results for quarter 2 financial year '26. We are pleased to share with you our performance highlights, key developments and outlook for the future. As we reflect on this joyous celebration of Diwali and welcome the Samvat, I'd like to extend my heartfelt greetings to each and every one of you. I hope you all had a wonderful and joyous Diwali filled with light, prosperity and happiness. May the coming year bring renewed energy, growth and success to you and your loved ones. In the upcoming Samvat, we at Ddev Plastiks remain committed to our strategic path of engineering excellence, expanding our footprint and energizing growth. Ddev Plastiks delivered a positive performance in the first half of the year, in line with the expectations. Our operating margins remained resilient, reflecting the company's agility and success in navigating a dynamic market environment, supported by the strength of the domestic economy. The cables and wire sector continues to be central to India's industrial growth, and with rapid acceleration of electrification and the renewables push across the country, demand for high-quality polymer compounds is set to accelerate. Ddev Plastiks is strategically positioned as a reliable and trusted partner in this high-growth market. Our commitment to the engineering excellence and innovation has enabled us to consistently deliver high-quality polymer compounds, establishing Ddev Plastiks as the largest listed polymer compounds manufacturer in India with over 4 decades of industry presence. To keep pace with the surging demand in the renewables and power sector, we are steadily expanding both geographically and across our capabilities as well. As part of our growth strategy, we are taking significant steps to address the growing requirements of high-voltage cables, while also aiming to strengthen our presence on the global stage in the years ahead. Looking forward, our focus will remain on enhancing operational efficiencies, broadening product offerings and catering to the evolving needs of diverse industries, thereby creating sustainable value for all our stakeholders. Analyzing the broad economic environment amidst all the geopolitical conflicts, firm and resolute steps taken by the Indian policymakers to prop up demand, thus, it is a reason for optimism for all corporates and consumers at large. The intensity of earnings cut has eased to modest levels and the latest quarterly cuts have been the lowest in the past 4 quarters, thereby improving macro policy environment likely to support the demand and growth. Liquidity is in a surplus mode and conducive for transition in the festive season. Disposable household income should be boosted further by lower personal income tax outgo and GST rate... [Technical Difficulty]

Ladies and gentlemen, the line from Dev sir has been disconnected. Please wait while we reconnect him. Ladies and gentlemen, we have Dev sir connected back with us. Please go ahead, sir.

Improved sentiment and purchasing power in rural India should contribute to demand pickup as well. Moreover, even on the global front, while the situation is still evolving and stays in flux, it appears that the geopolitical whipsaw has been digested by the market. And now the Indian government trade officials also sound more sanguine on better terms of trade with the U.S., punctuated by the likelihood of lower tariffs. The tariffs imposed by the U.S. are undoubtedly unreasonable and unnecessary. Nonetheless, they have a silver lining as they're pushing the government to implement long-term overdue reforms. Additionally, these tariffs are likely to motivate Indian companies to innovate and compete more effectively on the global stage. Further rationalization in GST is likely to benefit MSMEs, SMEs, rural and urban consumption. It is also likely to improve the discretionary income for the masses, which will benefit the consumer discretionary sector and improve the credit growth, which has been sluggish since FY '25. One of the sectors which would be a key beneficiary of this would be real estate, which would further create demand for wires and cables, which will impact us positively as approximately 81% of our revenues come from the wires and cable sector. The global energy landscape is undergoing a transformative shift with renewable sources, particularly solar and wind power emerging at the forefront of this transition. This monumental change is simultaneously creating a surge in demand for advanced materials, especially polymer compounds, which serve as a critical enabler in a wide range of renewable and electrical applications. As India's largest listed polymer compounding company, Ddev Plastiks is strategically poised to harness this momentum. Our differentiated solutions known for the superior properties for electrical insulations, corrosion resistance, heat and thermal stability and long-term durability are gaining wider acceptance globally, opening a multitude of growth avenues for the company. On the domestic front, India's energy requirements are projected to reach 817 gigawatts by 2030 with an ambitious target of sourcing 50% of the electricity from renewable energy. The country's transition to greener power, coupled with the transmission market estimated to nearly INR 60,000 crores underscores a structural opportunity that will accelerate the uptake of high-performance polymer compounds. These structural drivers align seamlessly with Ddev Plastiks core competence, establishing us as an essential partner for our evolving power and transmission ecosystem. Equally compelling is the trajectory of the Indian cable and wire sector anticipated to expand at almost twice the pace of India's GDP. Fueled by rapid urbanization, heightened infrastructure investments and robust electricity demand, this segment is expected to witness sustained acceleration. Polymer compounds are the cornerstone of this industry, and hence, this growth will directly enhance our addressable market. Taken together, the convergence of the macroeconomic tailwinds and sectoral growth drivers builds a highly promising outlook for the next decade. At Ddev Plastiks, we are committed to reinforcing our market leadership, accelerating innovation and delivering sustainable value creation for all our stakeholders. Our vision is not just to participate in this evolving energy infrastructure transformation, but also to play an enabling role in shaping it. Ddev Plastiks is India's largest manufacturer of polymer compounds with more than 200 compounds backed by 5 state-of-the-art manufacturing facilities, which are strategically located across both the East and West Coast. This well-planned geographical footprint not only enhances our operational efficiency, but also enables us to optimize freight costs and serve customers with greater agility. Our current installed capacity as of September '25 stood at 238,400 metric tons per annum. We successfully commissioned a new PVC facility with an installed capacity of 15,000 metric tons in October '25. Furthermore, an additional capacity of 5,000 metric tons of HFFR compounds and 10,000 metric tons of PVC compounds is scheduled to be operational by the end of this calendar year. Today, we cater to a broader spectrum of industry and proudly export to over 55 countries globally, underscoring our strong international presence and the agility and ability to align with the global quality standards and benchmarks. Our progress and success are powered by dedication of a highly skilled workforce of more than 400 employees who bring expertise, commitment and innovation at every aspect of our operations. Aligned with our vision statement, Ddev Plastiks is charting a course towards expansion and diversification. We are committed to enlarging our capacity and activities across various fields through the implementation of new projects and the introduction of innovative products. Now I would like our CFO, Mr. Arihant Bothra, to add some more.

Thank you, Dev ji. Good morning, everyone. I would like to begin by extending my warm wishes to all of you for a very happy New Year. I also hope you and your families had a joyful and safe Diwali filled with prosperity and happiness. We at Ddev Plastiks are pleased to report a positive second quarter and first half of FY '26 results. As of H1 FY '26, our volumes stood at 99,937 metric tons, while our capacity utilization stood at 84%, registering 10% volume growth year-on-year basis. For the first half of the year, revenue from operations reached approximately INR 1,450-odd crores, representing a 20% Y-o-Y growth. This performance were primarily driven by sustained strong demand in the wire and cable industry, coupled with increase in our average selling price. EBITDA stood at INR 154 crores with a margin of 11%, while PAT was approximately INR 99 crores, delivering a margin of 7% for the period. For the Q2 FY '26, revenue from operations reached approximately INR 680 crores, representing a 17% Y-o-Y growth. EBITDA stood at INR 75 crores with a margin of 11%, while profit after tax was approximately INR 47 crores, delivering a margin of 7% for the quarter. We also saw sequential improvement in revenue and EBITDA per tonne to INR 1,41,802 for EBITDA -- for the revenue and INR 15,559 for EBITDA per tonne, and improvement in our capacity utilization levels to 84%, highlighting strong demand landscape for Ddev Plastiks. This performance was primarily driven by strong domestic demand, improved export performance despite the challenges posed by heavy monsoon and U.S. tariff impacts. Looking ahead, we anticipate the positive demand momentum will continue in the upcoming periods. During the quarter, we continued our CapEx programs, adding capacity for Sioplas compounds of 5,000 metric tons, bringing our total installed capacity to 238,400 metric tons per annum. Production volumes also saw a healthy growth of 8% year-on-year basis for the quarter, reaching 48,204 metric tons. Capacity utilization improved both sequentially and Y-on-Y basis, standing at 87%. Our CapEx plans remain on track with an expected investment of INR 110 crores for this financial year. We now open the floor for question and answers.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from the line of Guru Darshan from Kitara Capital.

Sir, in the current quarter, we have done around 48,300 tonnes of volume, which is almost a 7% degrowth Q-o-Q basis or 8% of growth Y-o-Y basis. Just wanted to understand what are the broad factors leading to lower volume growth in the current quarter? And also, it would be helpful to elaborate on the current demand situation, like what's it like?

So I would like to take the first question. See, generally, if you see the first quarter being the monsoon period, that cable laying and everything gets impacted -- sorry, for this quarter, second quarter. So because of that, if you track any of our second quarters, it always remains at the lowest as compared to -- rather, it should be compared with the monsoon period. Whenever the monsoon is heavy, that quarter is comparatively lowest for that particular financial year. So if you see this particular financial year, first quarter, we did roughly 52,000 tonnes of volume and this quarter, roughly 48,000 tonnes. This marginal impact is mainly contributed by the power cable and distribution cable segment, which is impacted because of cable laying. Otherwise, in most of the areas, if you see, we have grown. So this is just to give you a perspective why it is such. On the second part, as regards to the demand, Kothari ji, I will request you to intervene.

In addition to what Arihant has explained, for the drop in the -- means the lower growth or the quarter-on-quarter degrowth in second quarter, the first thing is monsoon, and monsoon had been quite extended and severe this year. So that has impacted the demand. And second aspect is this U.S. tariff, which has kicked in, in the early August. So that also had an impact on our volumes. So both these things put together have impacted our second quarter numbers. Now looking at the current scenario, we are seeing positive tick on both. The monsoon is not anymore active. So we are seeing very strong demand and strong offtake forecast by our customers. So we feel that next 2 quarters, not only the third quarter, but the last quarter should be quite strong from the domestic demand point of view. And we are also seeing some optimism on the U.S. exports. We have seen the revival of the demand from our customers for U.S. market from now on. So we see both these factors behind us and the next 2 quarters should deliver better growth.

In terms of EBITDA per tonne, which has improved sequentially, and year-on-year basis, which is around INR 15,600 per tonne, would you be able to maintain the same margin considering you have added PVC capacity, which is a lower-margin business?

So as you see, we have added PVC of 25,000 tonnes -- rather, we are adding in this entire financial year 25,000 tonnes, while we're also adding XLPE capacity -- already added for 5,000 tonnes, HFFR being added for 5,000 tonnes, some other XLPE compounds are also being added. So it's a blend. So what we are doing is we are not concentrating only on the lower basket, not concentrating only on the higher basket. Right now, we are concentrating on the demand factor first, followed by the blend, the product mix. So if we consider both, definitely, our guidance of range of 14.5% to roughly 16.5%, 16%, 16.5% is something which we continue to remain. And the outcome, you can say the result of the same is visible in the second quarter.

Okay. Understood. Sir, one last question. Sir, in previous calls, you had mentioned there is no difference in EBITDA margin with respect to domestic versus exports. In the current quarter, are you seeing any signs of improvement in margins in exports? Is the freight cost normalized? Or is it still at the higher levels? Just wanted to understand more on the exports.

Kothari ji?

[indiscernible] export EBITDA being equal to domestic EBITDA was during the period when sea freight has gone up substantially. But now we are seeing the margins recovering for export also and a bit of higher margin we are getting from export transactions.

The next question comes from the line of Arnav Sakhuja from Ambit Capital.

So my first question is, can you give us a bit of an update on the status of the trial of the 132 kV products in the XLPE segment?

See, this is a topic where we have not seen any progress yet, because 2 key customers of ours, we cannot name them. So they both are running almost at full capacity and have not been able to allocate in any space for trial. But hopefully, this coming quarter, means January to March, we should be able to get these trials done, because third customer has very recently agreed to give us space in the first quarter of next calendar year, which is January to March 2026, a space for a trial. So we are very hopeful now almost sure that first quarter of 2025, '26 -- sorry, calendar year '26, we'll see this trial getting through.

And just on your employee cost. So I saw that it increased to around INR 13.3 crores this quarter. So is there any specific reason for this increase? Is it a one-off? Or like will this be the run rate going forward?

So it is practically the annual bonus as well as the arrear which has led to additional outgo in this particular quarter. When you want to see an average, then it will be an average of H1 which you need to follow.

The next question comes from the line of Bobby Jain from [ Front Investments ].

Regarding the volume growth, you mentioned that the monsoons had delayed it. But if you look at the wire and cable players like KEI and Polycab, they have shown about 15% volume growth. How is that?

Yes. So now first of all, KEI, Polycab, and there are many more companies like RR and then many more, they might have shown better growth in this season. And there might be many companies which might have seen degrowth in this quarter. We do not have an access to all the numbers of every cable company. But the fact remains, and it is historically, this is a fact that monsoon season is a difficult season because you do not have the cable laying activity, because cable laying activity is done in an open space and you should not have any disturbance of rain. And whenever you are making trenches, there shouldn't be water in the trenches when you are laying the cable. So it is a common fact known to everybody that the rainy season will have lower activity of cable laying. And this year, monsoon had been very, very severe. So this is a real impact. I really can't comment with regard to Polycab and KEI, because they are having a very big mix. They don't do only the power cable. They do huge volume in the building wire, where the cables are being installed within the shaded areas, means indoor installations are quite high.

All right. Makes sense. Okay. The second question is, if I look at Page 22 of your slide deck, you see the utilization for XLPE and Sioplas have come down quarter-on-quarter, whereas PVC is going up. It's gone up from 82% to -- from 57% last year to 82%. So are we seeing a trend towards lower margins?

No, no. This again proves the point which I just conveyed to you. The PVC mostly goes for building wire application, for indoor application. That is why you might have seen the last quarter utilization for PVC remaining strong, but XLPE and Sioplas and semicons, they are mostly for power distribution application, where you have to lay the cable in the open environment. So there, you might have seen some kind of lower utilization in the second quarter. That should pick up. So now when you compare the second half results with the first half results going forward, you will see that acceleration in the XLPE and semicons would be greater than PVC.

Okay. I understand. And you also mentioned that HFFR sales, you say were impacted by subdued demand due to effect of U.S. tariffs. Can you expand on that? I mean...

Yes. What do you mean, because we don't directly export.

Yes, please.

We do not export directly, but our customers, our cable makers are exporting cables to U.S.A. So if they are not exporting cables to U.S.A., they are not buying that particular raw material in this period. So that has impacted our demand and our sales for the second quarter.

So most of the sales for HFFR are actually going as exports, deemed exports, that is from your perspective?

No, no. It is deemed export. It is domestic as well. So in domestic also HFFR, major this laying is again for power distribution application areas. So these 2 areas have really impacted HFFR volumes. One more point I would like to highlight that as Arihant has made this opening comment that we have added capacity of HFFR. So we have taken a bit of shutdown also to get ready for that new machine installation of HFFR. So some output has been lost because of that as well.

Okay. I understand. But what percent is for exports in general for HFFR?

HFFR export is around -- say, whatever we are doing currently, around 25% is going for exports.

Meaning, your customers are exporters?

Yes, yes.

I see. And also, why are you expanding capacity for PVC given its lower margins? Is there a trend towards PVC cables in the industry?

No. You might have heard that the people like Adani and UltraTech, they are adding capacity for wire and cable with a new start-up, okay? And both these companies will start their business initially with the building wire, okay? And there, the major congestion is of the PVC. And we feel that we have a great opportunity to serve the requirement. And for that, we are adding this capacity of PVC. It is just getting ready for the demand which we anticipate to come from these 2 giants, Adani and this UltraTech, both.

I see. It's more for them. And the last question, what is the significance of revenue per tonne that you report in your slides? Isn't that driven by just raw materials mostly?

Yes, you are correct, it is driven by the raw material, but as well as it is also driven by the product mix. When we move more towards the high-margin products or you can say the XLPE segment specifically, then the average always goes up. So there has been multiple discussions over different calls that we don't reflect the average revenue per tonne to guide properly what is the proper realization. That is why we added this specific slide for, you can say, reference to the shareholders.

Even for this, what you mentioned, isn't EBITDA per tonne a better indicator?

Yes, we are highlighting by product mix.

Yes, I understand. Just I couldn't quite get the significance. For product mix, EBITDA per tonne should tell the whole story, shouldn't it, your profitability?

See, what happens, if you see the revenue per tonne for FY '23, it was roughly INR 174, driven by the higher raw material prices. But in FY '24, it came down to roughly INR 145, INR 146. So we grew by volume, but we didn't grow by revenue. So a lot of shareholders and investors were interested to understand why we say there is a growth, but it is not reflected. So that is why we specifically highlighted the revenue per tonne to clearly show whether the growth is coming from increase in prices or increase in volumes. Both have been highlighted today in the presentation.

The next question comes from the line of [ Rishabh Agrawal from Saraf Capital ].

Am I audible?

Yes.

Yes. So a few questions from my side. The first one was around gross margin per kg, because given that we have a pass-through model. And at a year-on-year level, we have seen a reduction of 5%, if I just compare it for this quarter. Do we see any -- is that just because of the mix change, because there is a higher contribution or rather a lower contribution of XLPE? Or are we also seeing a higher competitive intensity coming from the more MNC players?

So it is more towards the product mix. And as you correctly highlighted, in this particular quarter, the XLPE has comparatively not grown or degrown by hardly some percentages, but PVC has grown. So effectively, the lower margin is higher, you can say, a percentage of the revenue. And that is why the average gross contribution or gross margin you see is a marginal movement here and there. So that is something which will keep on moving depending on the product mix. But on a broader side, if you see, on an annual basis, except 1 year where it was an exception for us, if you see the last full year and this year, the margins are more or less in the similar lines. It has not moved much, except rather if you see the year of FY '24. Rather, if I compare that with the previous years, then it has improved from there on, roughly from 85% to in the range of 81% to 82%.

The other one was, I know previous participants have also asked this question, but I want to maybe frame it in a slightly different manner. If we look at only power cable companies, which are more 33 kV, 66 kV segment, they have also reported almost like 20%, 25% volume growth at least for this quarter. So in your estimation, maybe it is advanced supplies which might have happened in quarter 1, but do you see any market share difference, any reduction in pass-through pricing in the industry? Because I completely get it, monsoon has been high. I understand that would have had an impact on volumes. But again, thinking it more from a market share perspective, what is your sense of your change in market share over the last 2, 3 quarters?

Kothari ji?

See, what we hear from all our customers is that the monsoon period demand had been weak at their end. So that is a clear correlation between the performance of the cable producers who are mostly in power distribution cables and our performance. There, we are having a clear feedback from all our customers. Additionally, our volume, a few percentage here and there, compared to all our cable customers is impacted due to this U.S. export impact. Because all Indian cable customers are not exporting to U.S.A. There are a handful of them who are exporting to U.S.A., but we are the key supplier to all of them. So if you look at the cable fraternity, you'll find 3 or 4 or maybe 5 or maybe some of them are in unlisted space also, they might have reported a drop in their volume due to the lower export to U.S.A. But as a listed entity in the compounding segment who is serving their demand, we have seen the major impact on volume drop because of this deemed export to U.S.A.

And so how would you think about your market share there? Like broadly, where do you -- like at a broad level, broad strokes level, what is, according to you, your market share in XLPE segment, in PVC segment, or even at a blended level?

Yes. In fact, on the PVC, we have highlighted it in past. So I would repeat those numbers again, and we remain more or less in that zone. That is that in PVC, the market share is very low. Insignificant, I would say. It is below 10%, close to 5% or 6%. Now coming to XLPE segment. XLPE segment, in the Sioplas, high voltage, medium voltage category, our market share is close to 80%. And rest of the areas, the low-voltage Sioplas, our market share is close to 50%. Then if we come to XLPE and semicons, our market share is 1/3 of the market. In HFFR, our market share is close to 15% at the moment, 15% to 20% of Indian market. So this is the total overall scenario. And last quarter's numbers does not reflect any change in our market share.

Just last question, accounting-wise, from my side. Other income saw an increase. And generally, we have seen you guys say that other income also mostly forms part of operating income. So any reason for other income being, this quarter, INR 10.8 crores? And what was the contributor to it?

Arihant?

Sorry?

Yes, Arihant, the question was on other income. This quarter, we reported INR 10.8 crores other income, and we have said it in the past, right?

Yes, yes. It majorly comprises of interest income and exchange gain and losses. If you see overall, our balance sheet numbers are also visible over there. We have a high amount of, you can say, deposits lying under FDs as well as mutual funds. So the return on the same is highlighted separately over there as per the requirement of Ind AS. While this is a temporary arrangement wherein we are parking the excess balance to keep -- between the time bridge mismatches. So this is basically because of that.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from the line of Bhargav from AMBIT Capital.

Sir, my first question is that if we look at the volume growth in PVC, it is extremely strong, upwards of 40% on a Y-o-Y basis. Now despite such a strong volume growth, the gross profit per kg, if we exclude other income, hasn't fallen much. So it's fallen by just 6% to about INR 24.5 per kg. Does this mean that even in PVC, we are actually reporting higher gross margins in terms of per kg as compared to the past. So is there any value-added stuff in PVC, which means that going forward, even if the PVC contribution rises, the gross profit per kg at the company level may not decline much. Is that assessment correct, sir?

See, as in various conferences we have shared that in PVC also -- PVC or other products, where the margins are low, we are trying to do our best to improve margin wherever it is possible by introducing new product or, what you call, difficult products to be made by our competition in India. And in that process, yes, PVC demand had been very strong, and demand from building wire segment had been very strong where people demand high-performance product. So our PVC segment also had a share -- within this PVC compound group, we had higher share from better earning products compared to the lower earning products. That is why we have not taken such a serious hit to our final EBITDA despite PVC contribution being high.

And sir, when do we start getting demand from the newer players in PVC like Adani and UltraTech? And is it fair to say that year-end, again, the margins on PVC will be better than our existing customers?

Yes. With these new 2 customers, they are going for building wire segment. So their requirement will be of high-end products. So definitely, the EBITDA should be better than the average of the PVC compound. And we expect the demand because we are regularly in touch with their teams. So what we hear from them that they should be able to start the production somewhere in the first quarter of the calendar year 2026, or the worst case, first quarter of financial year '27.

The next question comes from the line of Jyoti Singh from LIC Mutual Fund.

Sir, first question is in terms of your guidance, if you can give, like how do you see your margins and volumes trending for H2? How do you see the demand...

I'm sorry to interrupt you, Ms. Jyoti, but your voice is breaking in between. Can you please go to a better network area?

Is it stable now?

It's still breaking, ma'am.

No issues. I got the question. She wants to understand the guidance for this financial year as far as the volume growth and the margin profile is concerned.

And how do you see the demand visibility in your end towards the end of the industry or the capacity utilization going ahead?

Sure. So when you see the volume growth targets, definitely, we are on track. We achieved roughly 190,000 tonnes in the last entire financial year. And this year, we have a target to achieve somewhere in the range of 210,000 tonnes to 220,000 tonnes. That is the overall target we are focusing on. As far as the EBITDA margin is concerned, see, our focus and our guidance has always been categorically clear in the range of 10% to 12%. And we, with the, we can say, blessings of God are at an average of 10% plus as of now, and we hope to be in the same queue only. As far as the demand factor is concerned, Kothari ji already highlighted that the second quarter remains comparatively impacted quarter due to monsoon. And this year being a heavy monsoon, it has been an impact, supported by U.S. tariffs. Otherwise, there has been an increase in -- there are chances of export, which we are also impacted in this particular quarter. But going forward, we see a very strong demand as we see the domestic strong demand in this particular quarter also. And we envisage that with the demand which is there in these 2 quarters -- expected in these 2 quarters, we'll be able to achieve our given target. So roughly, you can say we'll be able to achieve our revenue in the range of INR 2,850 crores to INR 2,950-odd crores and margins will be in the range of 10% to 12% of EBITDA margin.

Okay. Yes. That's helpful. Sir, my second question is pertaining to, means I want to understand how is the nature of your order cycle with respect to your key customers in terms of how typically do you receive orders? Is it on a spot basis, like aligned with the immediate demand, or there is a lag period?