Definitive Healthcare Corp. (DH) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. Great. Well, good morning, everyone. I'm Craig Hettenbach. I cover the health tech and provider space in Morgan Stanley. Thanks for being here at the second day of the conference. Just a quick disclosure upfront. Disclosures can be found on the Morgan Stanley website, www.morganstanley.com/researchdisclosures. So with that, very pleased to have Definitive Healthcare with us, CEO, Kevin Coop; and CFO, Casey Heller. So welcome.

Thanks for having us.

Great. I thought we'd just start with kind of a brief refresher overview of Definitive Healthcare, if that's okay, just to kind of set the tone for the discussion here.

Sure, Craig. So Definitive was founded back in 2011, and it was around the time that everybody -- well, there was a large movement to digitize records. And that was sort of the original foundation as part of that, and it became very clear quickly that there wasn't really a great solution that mapped the health care ecosystem of hospitals, doctors, physicians to insurance companies and payers and the entire -- ultimately leading all the way to patients. And so the effort was put in to start to create a very differentiated database around reference and affiliation data, which is still one of our core data sets today. And then over time, that evolved into other areas like claims data, bringing in different data sets to provide a more holistic view and to our customers that are interested in either selling to or understanding about that ecosystem. So today, Definitive actually provides solutions across a variety of different segments, including what we call our Diversified segment, which would be companies that are looking to sell into the space like could be anybody, whether it's packaged goods providers or manufacturers or consulting shops to biopharma, our life science business, medical device manufacturers, and it's continued to kind of expand over time. So -- and today, we compete in a large variety of segments, and we have primarily data products that cover all of those.

Perfect. And the company has gone through some management changes with you and Casey up here. So I'd love to just kind of dig into that in terms of some of the things and areas that you're focused on in terms of particularly where we are for life sciences, right, kind of a lot going on in the background. So for Definitive specifically, kind of what brought you to the company, what are some of the things you're most focused on?

So the first thing that was on the table is we need the stability and we needed to reestablish trust and transparency with our investors and also to get our employees focused on what we believe were the most critical and urgent areas in a much more simplified fashion. And so part of that was initially to come in and put together what we've talked about externally about our 4 pillars. And the first is really data. Data quality is the foundation of the business, and we need to remain vigilant on that because that is the, as I said, foundation. The second would be integrations that we need to -- as the market has evolved and there has been changes, especially in life sciences world, having the ability to deliver our products and services and data in the way that our customers need it, whether that's integrated through their CRM, it could be through APIs directly into their systems of record and systems of insight or it could still be through our UI/UX, that would be very important to do that to and make the investments that our customers have already made more valuable. The third is really around customer success and ensuring that the service levels and the way that we show up for our customers remain on top shelf. And then lastly, focusing on what we believe to be very easy adjacencies around innovation, around digital activation and master data management. So we reordered the company around some very specific things that everybody can understand. We've aligned all the internal operations around that, and we're communicating that to The Street. And I think over the last year, since I've been here, we have been able to reestablish predictability and telling our investors as well as our employees and customers, what we're going to do and then meeting what we've said we've been able to do.

Yes. I would echo that and very important that you hit upfront in terms of stability and trust. And despite what's still a volatile end market, the results have been steadier for sure. Anything from your prior experiences and things that may have been helpful for the organization as you implement some of these changes?

Yes, any time you come into a situation that needs some change and whether you want to call it a turnaround or a reignition of growth or the situation that you have, it's always usually -- even if you do a tremendous amount of diligence upfront, the experience is always very different than you think it might be, right? So once you're on the ground, you have to be very adaptable. And in the case coming into Definitive, we have great domain expertise. We have what you would expect from a company that was founded and run for many, many years by an exceptional founder that prioritize that demand expertise, we have that in spades. We lacked probably in some areas, process. And so we've been able to bring in and what I view as sort of augmentation and complementary people. We've been able to recruit in a senior team of folks that have been there and done that at scale. But it isn't a complete rip and replace. We have a lot of really fantastic folks and domain expertise as well. So we've been able to blend the two. And that's allowing us to be more focused on the executables that I just talked about around those 4 pillars.

Great. And can we talk about just the data provider space. I think most people look at someone like an IQVIA as kind of the 800-pound gorilla, very established. I think life science customers will use them, they'll use other sources like Definitive. So how are you kind of differentiated in this marketplace?

Yes. So it's a great question. And I started off by talking about the expansion of Definitive's breadth of offerings across segments earlier. In health care, in particular, you need to have a very heavy emphasis on the domain expertise and understanding the end market and the level of data quality, for example, that we talked about as the first pillar is super important. So for example, just having health care data, especially if you're modeling it through, let's say, like claims, which many of our competitors do, you're going to miss perhaps 40% of the market because the reality is that prescriptions are not written at the facility level, and you just simply are going to have gaps. Unlike Definitive, where we spend, and we've spent the years over a decade, really building out that parent-child relationships in hierarchy to really map that ecosystem to a very, very granular level. And I think it's probably safe to say, even a cursory review of the market will tell you that especially our core data sets that the quality and the level of accuracy is significantly better. So for those customers that need accuracy, which in health care is quite important, we believe that differentiated data asset is very important. The second aspect is, is you have to be able to deliver it agnostically through the platforms and systems of insight and systems of record, the way our customers want to receive it. So unlike other competitors that are software vendors first and may have integration with CRMs or one particular CRM or another, and it goes down the list, Definitive is agnostic. So we are making it our business that we need to be able to agnostically work with whatever system of record across any platform or any data movement that's needed in any data set very easily and seamlessly. So I think that puts us into. We have -- we like our chances in that space. And we think we do prove through the head-to-head competition in those space that we do very well when that comes up.

Great. I do want to touch on even if it's high level kind of longer term. So if we started with kind of important stability and trust, I don't want to jump to like, okay, what's the growth going to be next year. But just -- on a longer-term basis, what's the growth of this kind of category? How do you think about the margin profile of the company that stands today and where it could go over time?

Well, maybe I'll talk a little bit about the strategy, and then I'll hand it off to Casey to talk about sort of what we think the financial impact and the shape of that would look like. So the first is -- and I started off with the original -- the origin of the company, which was really around a differentiated data set that made it very easy for people to get it through our common or our UI/UX. The evolution is that, that -- while that is still very powerful in many customers, especially in the mid-market, need that easy access through the UI/UX and the [indiscernible] which we've now deployed. There's also the need to deal with it through or receive the data through integrations with their applications, coming back to that agnostic approach around integrations. And then the third is there's a mastering of data aspect of it that's pinned to the Definitive ID, which we've already -- a token that we've already had in the market for years, which now makes it easier for our customers to manipulate the data and move the data, whether that's across providers or partners like whether it's Databricks or Snowflake, could also be directly into the data supply chain where they want to master the data with other third-party data sets. And that level of integration into the data supply chain, I think, is going to be very interesting because now you become part of a workflow, you become part of the outcome. You're providing insights off of it and it makes your data stickier, especially if you combine that with the fact that it's the most accurate and it's the highest class, best-in-class data at the same time. What that does is it shifts. And maybe, Casey, you can talk a little bit about how that will evolve on the margin profile and the financials.

Yes, absolutely. So it's probably a little bit premature to try and set out a new long-term growth model and trajectory. Certainly, in the near-term elements, we are very focused on stabilizing our revenue and eventual return to growth. We're really excited about the market opportunity ahead of us and our ability to capture that demand. And we're confident that as we return to revenue growth, we'll have the ability to further expand margins. That just reflects the nature of our business model. We've got a really strong business model that gets very high incremental margin and we generate a lot of great cash. So I think from those kind of components, those are the things that really give us the confidence that over time, as we return to revenue growth, we'll have the ability to further expand margins beyond what I think even today with declining revenue base a pretty attractive margin profile.

Got it. Let's switch gears to just kind of technology and AI. And I would love to hear just kind of on the AI front, how are you using technology kind of internally and then also perhaps from a commercial perspective?

Yes, that's a great question. It certainly one that comes up a lot. I would break it into three buckets. So we already do a significant amount of AI and machine learning already. And we use that and everywhere from our data supply chain. We do it with our -- in segmentation, for example, in our products, where a customer may want to automate the medical affairs aspect of legal for compliance and other ensuring that they are compliant with governmental or regulatory concerns about human intervention. We've got a large focus right now on internal efficiencies, which I think is a very obvious and immediate opportunity for operational efficiencies, whether it's in our customer success and offshore custom analytics teams. I think those are all pretty straightforward. So there's elements in the product, which will become just simply part of table stakes and then you've got operational efficiencies, which are a lot easier to monetized in the sense of there will be efficiencies that we can calibrate very effectively. The third bucket, which I think is a little bit more difficult is in the innovation area, where we also are looking to do that as well, but it isn't quite clear yet how you monetize that, and nor do we think we want to necessarily directly. We think it might be part of just simply what we need to be bringing in 2026 as part of the base product.

Got it. And how do you think about in terms of -- because it's one of the bigger questions for investors, right, like a lot of buzz around technology, what does it ultimately need. Are you able to kind of absorb some of these investments? You talked about you have a good profitable model. But how are those kind of trade-offs in terms of what you're spending on versus what you ultimately expect to capture?

Yes. Again, it's a great question. So I think that we talked about earlier, you had asked a question, Craig, about coming in what was sort of the -- what I -- what was that bringing in that was different or the same? Well, one of the things that was attractive about Definitive is while we have certain challenges to address, and we needed the simplification. We also don't have a lot of the pressures that you would find in a similar type situation where our balance sheet would be getting pressure, right? We've got good capital. We've got a good balance sheet. We are very profitable. And so it gives you optionality. So once you've stabilized the business, and then you've also been able to kind of simplify what you're focused on, and you still have -- now you have a very clear strategy on what's going to be needed to return to growth, then the next stage is starting to talk about that externally to you tell your customers and you're going to tell The Street, and you're going to tell everybody what you're doing. And as part of that, it needs to include that fourth pillar that I was talking about, which was innovation, which includes our AI and mastering of data, which is really around match [ in a attended ] in a more sophisticated fashion. And so we do -- I think we are fortunate because of the balance sheet that we have, that we're able to, through that process, we've been able to free up capital to the vote on these very important areas, which are going to drive growth in the future without having to do what I would call -- I wouldn't say unnatural is the right word, but something that would be a little bit more austere, right? We've been able to do that. We'd be very fortunate in that way. I don't know if you want to add anything to that, Casey?

Yes, I think that was very well said.

Great. Let's touch on just partnerships. You mentioned before, whether it's companies like Databricks, Salesforce, Snowflake, really curious to kind of learn like what that does for Definitive business? And then also the flip side in terms of why are these companies choosing Definitive to kind of partner with kind of full circle?

Yes. There is -- it's an old edge, which I think is very applicable still today, which is you've got to look at everything you're doing through a build by partner lens. And if it's strategic, which we have a lot of strategic things that are imperative that we need to do, there's two categories of strategic. If we believe it is actually fundamentally strategic. We think we need to either buy it or we're going to need to build it. If it's something that we think is very important, we don't find the need to be such that we have the time or we want to deploy capital for that, then you can find access to that through partners. And we've already -- we didn't announce who it was, but one of the things that we identified very early on that we needed around that mastering of data, getting access to identity graph, technology, helping us to bring in some different data sets that we didn't believe was important enough because it was more commoditized that we didn't want to bring it into our data supply chain, we've been able to effect partnerships to attack that either technology components or through data. The other aspect of it is there are large, well-established players like mentioning like a Databricks or Snowflex, we're not interested in obviously competing with those businesses, but our customers need to move larger data sets officially -- efficiently, and they've already invested in those relationships. So we need to be able to agnostically support our customers across all of those types of partnerships. Then you have a third category would be in one of the areas that we've announced, and we are moving into, it's really around audience -- digital audience targeting and augmentation. So we have great data. Our customers come to us for that data. Often they need to put that into motion, whether it's through placing it in through Google search ads. They may be wanting to use that through a DSP or an agency to actually activate that data in some fashion. We're not interested in competing with the businesses that are actually providing the technology to do that, but we know that our data helps significantly augment the audiences and helps them on the targeting. And we also have the ability to help them on the measurement and attribution on the back end, which builds a virtuous cycle back into the data supply chain. So an example of that is we don't need to compete with many, and that's a very crowded space. We don't need to be in that space. We're in the data space. We're in the augmentation space. We can add insights and additional data cleansing to it, which makes everybody more efficiently. So that's kind of a long answer around the technology space. But if you think of it in a simplistic way, do we need to build it or buy it or do we need to partner. And that partnership bucket is going to be a large area. And we're just trying to make that as efficient and as agnostic as we possibly can.

Great. Let's shift gears just to kind of the macro backdrop. And I'd love to focus on just kind of the biopharma space versus providers. Any puts and takes in terms of the customer discussions that you're having, what they're dealing with, what that means from kind of a sales cycle perspective? How are things out there?

Yes. The Life Sciences segment for us is large, but it isn't the largest. So it's an important segment for us. And it has been going through some challenges. Definitive's participation in that with the challenges is: First of all, we don't have Stage 1 clinical assets, we're Stage 2. So we're really around activation of therapies. We're putting things in market. It's really around once our customers have moved it into that second stage or if they're medical device manufacturers trying to target it. So as that market -- that segment recovers, we're going to be a little later. It's a leading indicator that it will eventually roll its way through to us. In the meantime, we're also not as subject to some of the market challenges others that are in that first stage are. So things like whether it's the big beautiful bill or there's tariffs, that stuff is really, really that affecting Definitive. The bigger challenge for us in that space was what really happened in the claims data market last year. So there was an impact that wasn't exclusively to us. It was around claims data with Change Healthcare for those that cover the space may be aware of that. And in effect, took out a large amount of data and records from the market. So we've been able to react to that, and we've been able to replace that. But in the meantime, you have a significant impact to the industry as a whole, and that kind of reverberates through businesses that are primarily data businesses like Definitive. So we've been able to, I think, manage through that pretty effectively. But the life sciences space as a segment -- well, it's very important to us. It isn't the largest sector for us.

Yes. And if I can just maybe add on a little bit there just for folks who may not be as familiar with Definitive. So our life sciences piece of the business makes up roughly 40% of our book, providers about 10% and diversified is our largest end market of about 50%. And some of the pressures that Kevin mentioned some of these kind of broader macro trends that have been weighing on across the segments. Life Science, I do think, has been more disproportionately impacted. And we've seen that dynamic playing out over the last 1.5 years plus at this point. But really, as far as what we've been observing, there hasn't been any kind of significant change. I think that there's been tough macro pressures there resulting from the high interest rate environment, just broader macro uncertainty, regulatory changes that have really been kind of living within the space. We're seeing sales cycles. They were lengthened last year. They're still long. We're seeing more approvers getting integrated into the processes. More RFPs, just longer time to decision making amongst the customer base, and that has certainly been much more prevalent in life sciences versus the remainder of the business.

Got it. Can you touch on just the provider as well as the diversified in terms of the trends you're seeing in that space?

Yes. Within that space, I think that we've actually continued to see some solid new logo growth and our renewal rates in that space are stronger than what we see within life sciences. So from those spaces, I would define kind of those 2 elements that make up 60% or so of our business is being healthier and a bit more robust than what we're seeing within the life sciences space at the moment. But I do think it's important to point to the 4 pillars that Kevin touched on earlier, those are really focused around customer-informed initiatives. These are all of the things that we are driving operationally internally to continue to improve renewal rates across the business. And one of the actually really green shoots that we had coming out of the second quarter was our second quarter renewal rates were the best that they've been in a year, and that was very broad-based across the business. So that includes improvement in life sciences as well. So again, all very kind of encouraging signs to us that the elements that are within our control and that we are driving are having an impact, while we really haven't seen much change in terms of the macro backdrop.

Got it. And then Life Sciences specifically, again, there's been no shortage of kind of news or headwinds that these companies are kind of navigating through outside of just long sales cycles, any impact on kind of pricing or contract terms or not so much?

Yes. Within the life sciences space, this is an area where we've seen what we refer to as more downsell pressures. So we have a lot of clients that are still renewing, but they're looking to renew for less given their internal budgetary pressures or changes in the sizes of their internal -- inside sales teams and the folks that would be kind of actively using our data. So within the life sciences space, that's certainly is having a downward pressure on renewal rates. We don't have clients that are fully leaving us, but they are looking to renew at smaller values as they're working through this kind of these tough budgetary cycles essentially. So that for us is something that is much more pronounced within life sciences than anywhere else. And there's elements that we're doing to try to continue to capture value. We've put additional focus on our professional services teams and driving deeper analytics and insights, particularly within the biopharma space. Those clients are looking for much more unique and specific insights. So we've put an extra focus around the professional services teams focused on those areas so that we're able to capture that piece of the value and help to kind of offset some of the pressures from what may be some aggressive pricing asks.

Got it. And you mentioned retention. I think that has been kind of moving at least in the right direction, stabilization. You also mentioned things under your control. Just from an organization perspective, what are some of the things that are helping kind of drive stabilization and renewals?

Well, we made some relatively quick changes after I arrived when I looked at the way, for example, the commission structures were set up. And historically, the sellers were organized around hunters that were required or incented to bring on new logos. And then there was a very bright line handoff to a retention team that then was responsible for onboarding and supporting those customers. So simply changing the commission structure to where there's an ongoing responsibility for the seller to ensure that the customer was delivered what precisely was sold. It got onboarded timely, and then it wasn't oversold and that they continue to be happy. And at the same time, there's an incentive now to bring in those customer success people earlier in the process before the handoff, so it's not such a bright line. It starts to drive behaviors that immediately start to show themselves up in the happiness of the customer and the -- ultimately, it will translate into the renewals. It's sort of one of those obvious intuitive things that make sense. And so we started starting at the tip of the spear on how our customers sold. And then ensuring that we have a delighted customer that gets exactly what they bargained for and that they're supported in a way that they feel good and delighted. And once you do that, that will -- because we know that the data is differentiated. We know that the use cases that they're being deployed for are there. And so if you can eliminate some of the dissatisfaction around how they're actually handled and managed and that's where it comes back to that third pillar, which is customer success. And it's just -- it's what we view as sort of like that best practice and good hygiene, and it's going to start to translate its way through.

Got it. And I think you got involved in the sales organization early on, and I'd love to hear just what insights that helps in terms of shaping your strategy? And also want to touch on, I think you focused more on just kind of a platform sales and how that's evolving?

Yes. So the two things inside of that, and many people probably are -- if they're either reading this or in the room. But when I -- after I joined very quickly and inspecting the commercial team, the Chief Commercial Officer resigned within weeks after my joining. That what turned out to be a blessing in disguise is it allowed me to get much closer to the sales team, get out with the customers more, which I would have done anyway, but this sort of eliminated that sort of the nail. And I was able to start to really directly understand what the customers wanted. I got to get involved directly at the individual sales rep level. And I spent the first really 60 to 90 days out on the road. In addition to setting up what I call coffee -- coffee and doughnuts which were 15-minute kind of round robin and anybody in the company randomly gets there for a Zoom call. So over the course of 6 months, you talked to a couple of hundred of your employees directly in a very one-on-one type environment. So between those 2 things, it really gives you a pretty good pulse of what's going on. What I found to be very pleasantly surprised is that the customers, well, in some cases, we're dissatisfied with the way they've been managed or handled often found that the data was extremely valuable, and we're not displeased with that. And so that's a very fixable challenge, right? It would have been much different had you found out that the products weren't working as advertised or that there was something fundamentally wrong with the data supply aspect of it. So really what wasn't intended to be job 1 ended up becoming job 1, which is really getting out there and working with the commercial team. So I moved from that point once I felt that we had a pretty good handle on that. And in success, we brought in a Chief Commercial -- Chief Customer Success Officer, who joined us, who's been on board now, not quite a year, but she has made tremendous inroads there and far as how we structure our customer success and client-facing teams on the support side. And most recently, we brought in another Chief Commercial Officer. I've replaced myself in that role a few months back with a woman who I've worked with in the past, who is exceptional. And so she's bringing in a -- kind of taking that into the next level of detail on the commercial side of things.

Got it. Maybe you can touch on it, we talked upfront in terms of just stability in the business and maybe some things that aren't apparent to external people or investors just from an organizational perspective, a lot of change that you're driving. And -- any -- how is the organization responding to that? What are some things maybe you've learned along the way? And how is it going to make kind of the company stronger longer term?

Yes. So I'll hand it to Casey to give a little bit of her insights, too. It's been a little bit longer. But what I found over the years and especially coming in with my background over the last 20, is that the first thing that needs to happen is you just have to be extremely -- we call radical transparency or ruthless transparency. And so we had initially, in addition to now having conducted probably 500 of those one-on-ones. I have an open door policy, anybody can get on the counter. I eliminated the executive assistant out in front. So anybody in the company walking the hallways, having weekly standup calls with the sellers, monthly town halls. We've done what we call open mic or ask any where I'll get up for an hour and take any question unfiltered through Slido without any filter, no pre-read, and you tell people what's going on. And you share fundamentally all the financials, what the challenges are and what the opportunities are. When you do that, people will self-select. Some people will simply not want to get on board and they'll leave, and we've had some of that. Others that understand and are finally happy that people are addressing root cause issues or things that maybe they felt they'll actually rally to that. And so I think you've got a little bit -- while there is a little bit of change that goes on there. Generally speaking, when you're honest in forthright, you tell people the truth and you're handling it and you lead by example, I think people respond to that pretty well. And so I feel pretty good that that's happening. I don't think...

Yes. I would absolutely echo that. I think that there is fundamentally an appetite for the team within Definitive to embrace change. I think that while we have some really talented folks across the organization. You have some people that have been with the organization for a decade and have only seen things done the Definitive way. So actually, that's where some of the leadership refresh that Kevin has brought in across the executive leadership team. You've got folks in seats now that know how things should operate at scale, what a healthy process looks like. So I think that there's a lot of opportunity in operational efficiency and just general improvement from a management accountability perspective, that's making its way through the organization and being embraced.

So part of what we're setting up for next year as we look at even the brand and how we talk about Definitive. So if you look at the website, it's about a commercial intelligence operation, right, commercial intelligence company that provides insights to companies that want to sell into the ecosystem, which is true. And that's true for about half our business. But that nomenclature really doesn't mean anything to a biopharma customer, and it doesn't really mean anything to certain customers that we serve today. And if you really peel back what is Definitive do, we do have data that helps biopharma customers more effectively target therapies for cancer and solving and curing cancer. We've also got other businesses that are looking to bring to the commissary their food stuffs that are going to be part of the comfort food that, that patient is going to get in the operatory. So really everything that we do, whether it's for a diversified customer that's selling to hospitals or someone selling to biopharma, it's in the service of the patient. And that's a pretty cool mission that you can really get around. It's a lot more inspiring than, say, commercial intelligence is. Now that may be what we do, but that's one of the outputs of it. So part of it is you come in new and you look at this and you say, you guys see yourselves meaning the general employee base in one way. But the way I see it from the outside, it's a very different view. And so you sort of have to start to build that up. But all this stuff needs to be built off of a foundation of transparency, stabilization and much more focus around simpler fewer things to do. So that's a little bit of a journey. In a year, we've gotten a lot, I think, accomplished in the last 12 months. More to do, but that's kind of the evolution in where we are today. And so I feel pretty optimistic about that going forward.

Got it. Appreciate that perspective. Just as we wrap up here in the next couple of minutes, I'd love to spend some time on capital allocation. Like you said, you had good balance sheet, highly profitable. You've been buying back stock. Historically, the company did a lot of tuck-in acquisitions, and that was kind of paused. We talked about this buy versus build. But just how do you bring that all together in terms of where you see the best fit in terms of capital and how you're going to spend it?

Well, again, -- to Casey on that. But I think you need to make sure that the foundation of your house is solid before you start adding on more floors, right? You just have to fix that first. You also, I would argue that given the current situation in our market cap, it's difficult to find quality assets that would probably be accretive. And so you need to be really thoughtful about what you're going to buy. So at present, we thought the best use of our available capital was to do share buybacks, which we've been doing now for the past -- what?

A year.

For about a year. But we also think that given where we are, we have that opportunity to be very thoughtful about that. So -- we've got a great Board. We have a very active Board. They have a lot of domain expertise on that Board. And so we are very much open to that. It's just a question of when and you need to make sure that it's squarely aligned with a strategy beyond just bringing in, to your point, I think you said very acquisitive and point solutions that may or may not be integrated.

That makes sense. And just on you mentioned the Board in terms of I'd love to hear kind of their input to this whole process, right? You have a turnaround underway. They've authorized the buyback, what you're doing. Like longer term, bigger picture, any thoughts in terms of where they -- like the vision of where this kind of settles out?

Well, I feel very supported by the Board. I think we have a good mandate. We go back regularly to them for counsel and advice as it would be appropriate. But we're not prejudging the outcome, right? And I talk about it internally as far as I came out of in past businesses as a portfolio executive going in. One of them is a company that had been around for 185 years, right? Abraham Lincoln worked at one of our previous companies. And so you think about -- and that's no joke, 4 Presidents worked there. So if you think about it from the perspective of generational business, if you focus on building the best long-term business that isn't just for the next quarter or the next year, but it's going to stand the test of time. It gives you massive optionality down the road. So what we're doing, and we're trying to manage the business without that is just simply, what are you doing to build a generational business and get the business back on track, fortifying the balance sheet and allowing you to have the most growth, and that's sort of the North Star. And then whatever happens down the road, we'll have plenty of optionality for that.

All right. Well, I think we're right out of time. I think that's a good way to end a very clear message to wrap up.

Thank you.

Thanks for your time.

Thank you, Craig.