DFDS A/S (DFDS) Q4 FY2025 Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the DFDS Full Year Report 2025 Conference Call. I am Margaret, the Chorus Call operator. [Operator Instructions] The conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Torben Carlsen, CEO. Please go ahead, sir.

Good morning, and welcome to DFDS' Q4 and Full Year 2025 Conference Call. I am, as usually joined here by Karen Boesen, our CFO; and Søren Brøndholt, our Head of IR. Our headline for the annual report is turning point ahead as our financial performance started to turn around in Q4 2025, and this was followed up by a solid January result. This is reassuring and the key theme for this call is to take a closer look at the actions implemented that will secure the 2026 progress and turning point. Also reassuring is the high level of customer loyalty we've seen throughout 2025. Our customer satisfaction scores are trending well above industry standards in both ferry and logistics. So, with the turning points, with the customer loyalty, we have a strong foundation in our network and for our people to navigate DFDS through the challenges we've seen in '25 and to deliver a different level of financial performance in 2026. Let's start with a closer look at our turning points on Slide 3. Headline turning point reached end of tough 2025, actions implemented for 2026 recovery. And it was indeed a tough 2025. Results were below expectations. Focus areas proved more challenging than expected. We experienced margin pressure across our network from a competitive low-growth market environment and the inflationary cost pressure post-COVID and war continued through '25. Our new concession routes start-up in Jersey was also slightly more challenging than expected. So, on this background, we'll talk about our 2026 expectations, and we do call 2026 a turning point. The actions implemented during 2025 will underpin the change of level in 2026. And let me talk through some of those with the main impacts. Logistics boost projects, we saw a delay of the impact in '25, especially Q1 and Q2, but gained traction in Q3 and Q4, and we'll see the full year impact of these actions. On freight ferry pricing general through the system, we have had strong focus during the last couple of months of '25 to get increases in place. And in the larger areas, Baltic, North Sea channel, we've seen more success with this than in the last couple of years. We have now ramped up the operation in Jersey. All agreements are in place, and we'll see the full year impact of this operation, including a full summer season, which will significantly improve our results compared to 2025. In the Mediterranean, throughout 2025, we took various measures, but the real turning point was in September when we launched a new pricing model and at the same time, during Q4, redelivered some of our chartered-in vessels to significantly reduce cost while still being able to serve our customers. And then, of course, in November, we launched our cost reduction program that when it comes to the people part with 400 positions reduced was implemented during Q4. Then there's a light blue square here with test turnaround progression. We have seen a lot of actions taken during '25 due to the backdrop of the Turkish economy, the Turkish foreign exchange ratio, the intransparency in the ferry market. The turnaround has been more challenging than expected. We will continue to see benefits or improvements in '26 due to some accounting that we can cover on a different time. It will not show in the P&L necessarily strongly, but cash flow-wise, there's another strong improvement versus '25. But all in all, 5 areas where the actions have been implemented, where the benefits are showing in Q4 and in January. And then one last area of focus as well, but where there's still hard work, of course, in front of us. Turning to Page 5. Talking a little bit about Q4. Competitive market environment continued, flat markets in Northern Europe and a very soft U.K. Turkey headwind from inflation reduction policy. Good growth continued in Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt. Passenger volumes muted, but we managed to increase onboard spending to compensate partially for this. On the 3 focus areas, the logistics boost projects, continued progress as expected. You'll see that in some of the numbers from Karen in a minute. The Mediterranean adaptation worked, and we delivered a positive result in Q4 in the ferry business in the Mediterranean and test turnaround, continued focus on operations, organization and commercial development. Q4 earnings, the Ferry division underlying results improved, driven by Mediterranean and Logistics division's underlying results similarly improved when adjusted for one-offs. Cash flow boosted strongly by working capital initiatives and a ferry sale, and we experienced or reported DKK 97 million one-off redundancy costs in connection with our cost savings program. With this, I will, on Page 6, hand over to Karen for more details on the numbers.

Thank you, Torben, and good morning, everyone, on the call. I'm going to start with Q4 and then move on to full year numbers. So, looking at Page 6, we're looking at revenue in Q4 2025, where we are more or less flat with 1% up. However, organic growth was negative. It was minus 3%. This is driven by, as Torben mentioned, a slightly slower passenger market. We also have a reduction in logistics, which is driven by closure of certain activities in order to improve overall profitability of the area. And then obviously, we have the revenue increase coming from the Ekol acquisition, which has full quarterly effect in Q4 2025 from BU TES. However, slightly offset by the loss of the sale of the Oslo-Copenhagen Group. So overall, DKK 100 million in revenue, 1%. Moving on to the next page, Page 7, our Q4 income statement, just highlighting a few numbers. an EBITDA of DKK 705 million, which is 5% down compared to same quarter last year, a significant or slightly increase in depreciations, mainly coming from the addition of BU TES. So, 9% up on depreciation, which takes us then to an EBIT of minus DKK 62 million, which is the quarterly EBIT reported today. And then we move further down in the P&L, you will see that our finance costs compared to same quarter last year was slightly lower and so was the interest cost. This is driven both by a lower debt, about DKK 1 billion, but DKK 1 billion less in debt and then also driven by lower floating rates. Moving on to the next page, Page 8, where we are comparing the reported EBIT of minus DKK 62 million by the 2 divisions to the underlying actual performance, referring back to Torben's intro about how we see underlying improvements year-on-year in the 2 divisions. So, if we look at Ferry first, on the top right corner, we have the reported result of Ferry of DKK 50 million. Coming from last year, there's some reductions in the rest of the network, but you also see an underlying improvement in the Mediterranean of DKK 49 million in the quarter, which takes us overall to a level above the earnings of Q4 2024. Similarly, if we look at Logistics, reported earnings or EBIT of minus DKK 29 million versus minus DKK 30 million in the same quarter in 2024. However, if we take out the one-offs and BU TES, then we see an underlying improvement of the like-for-like network of DKK 43 million. So again, here, an underlying improvement year-on-year when you compare like-for-like. So overall, these are the signs that indicates that we are reaching the turning point of our challenging performance. Then moving on to full year 2025. Now looking at Slide 10. Here, we see an overall growth in revenue of 4%. This is slightly below or not -- it is below what we originally guided, but it is still in line with the latest guidance that we came with. It's 4% up due to the addition of BU TES, of course, and then subtracted with the sale of the Oslo Ferries and other adjustments. Organic growth again was negative, driven by freight ferry and also by logistics, same reasons as I explained for Q4. So, moving on to the next slide, which is our full year income statement, Slide 11. Again, highlighting the growth in the revenue of 4%. The loss in the EBITDA of 16% down to an EBITDA of DKK 3.7 billion, a depreciation increase of 13%, again, with the addition of BU TES and then we also have the constructive loss of the Ferries in Landia in the beginning of the year and also here takes a write-down. It's offset by a larger income elsewhere in the P&L. Then taking us to the reported EBIT of DKK 520 million today, which is obviously significantly down compared to last year. Same issues on the financing cost, lower than last year, driven by debt reduction and lower floating rates, and then we have some FX losses that goes the other way. Overall, the profit after tax is a negative DKK 425 million for the year. Turning to Slide 12, looking at the EBIT per division. Again, first, we compare, of course, to our previous performance, which is the disappointing picture that we knew we are there, but that's in line with the expectations, unfortunately. The route changes and so forth has also impacted overall our performance this year. Overall, Ferry is down with more than DKK 700 million to an EBIT of DKK 791 million. Logistics is down DKK 243 million to an EBIT of minus DKK 30 million. Again, this is driven by the BU TES, which we have already reported as loss-making. So, the existing business is offsetting that loss. So ultimately -- and then we have a slight change in the corporate cost, which is mainly due to the redundancy cost that we took in Q4. So that's the bridge from last year to this year's EBIT. Turning to Slide 13, the cash flow. If we focus on the full year, then overall, a good operating cash flow compared to the decline in earnings that we have. We have operating CapEx of DKK 1.2 billion, offset by a net income from purchase and sale of ferries. We purchased 1 and sold 2. So that has an overall positive impact of DKK 246 million, taking the net CapEx to just below DKK 1 billion. A free cash flow of DKK 2.3 billion and then adjusted for acquisitions, we are then at an adjusted free cash flow of DKK 1.2 billion for the year. This is a lot driven by, as we have said also, by our working capital initiatives and obviously, of our also discipline in terms of CapEx spend in the year. Turning to the last page in my section. We are then addressing our capital structure and the development in our capital structure, our debt ratio over the years. Overall, we end 2025 with an equity ratio of 36%. That is up 1% compared to 2024. We have -- what you call it a debt-to-equity ratio of 52% to 48%. That is also improved compared to 2024, where the debt was 55% to 45%. And then on our earnings to -- debt-to-earnings ratio, our net interest-bearing debt to EBITDA, we are ending the year at 4.1. This is a slight increase compared to 2024. However, as you will know, when you follow the quarters over the course of 2025, we have been higher over the quarters. And therefore, we are confident with at least reducing here by the end of the year, and we will reduce further into 2026. The reduction is driven by a decrease in net interest-bearing debt of DKK 1.9 billion compared to 2024, which is partly offsetting the lower earnings in the year. We've also put a little box here showing our expectations for 2026, 2025 and the mid-term revision of our target range from 2.5 to 2.3, which we can come back to if necessary. With that, I will leave the word back to Torben.

So, moving to Green & Great Place to Work on Page 16. Our CO2 emissions were further reduced during 2025, trying to basically be quicker in the terminals and spend more time on the water and of course, investing in fuel reduction initiatives. We further increased the number of environmentally friendly equipment on the land side with trucks and trailers. Increased our solar energy production, increased women in management positions and made significant improvements on our both land side and sea-based safety when measured on lost time injury frequency. So very pleased with that. And ESG continues to be on the agenda of DFDS if anybody were in doubt. Moving to Page 18 and 2026 focus areas -- sorry, 2025 focus areas. We had the 3 focus areas, logistics boost projects, adapting Mediterranean and turnaround of Turkey and Europe South. Logistics boost projects, we already mentioned in Q3, Q2, and especially in Q3 that the turning points were met, the focus worked. The adaptation in the Mediterranean, we have now seen in Q4, we are making money again in that area, and we'll see further significant improvements during '26. And then the one that is slightly delayed is the turnaround of the Turkey and Europe South business. And if we deep dive a little bit into this, the logistics boost projects, we have talked about 8 projects that needed turnaround. Seven of those are now profitable and also do well on other metrics. We do have one domestic Danish business that still creates challenges, but with significant improvements versus '24, but not quite there yet. We continue with this model. We will not report necessarily externally as much in '26 about this. But a lot of actions have been taken to make our logistics business a more focused and less complex business, and we'll continue that work. And internally, the team that runs the Boost projects continue to monitor the different entities and move resources according to performance across our network. Mediterranean adaptation showing results on Page 20. As you know, there was a new competitive situation from September '24 and markets continues to rebalance and adapt to the new situation. Of course, also taking into account that the Turkish economy is not as strong -- growing as strong as it has. What we have done is that on our own corridor, we reduced capacity by 3 ferries driven through this Mediterranean into a positive EBIT result in Q4, also helped by the new pricing model that was launched in September and that will take further traction in 2026. The market was up by 2% -- 2.4% in '25, driven by especially the ferry market growth as the lower pricing picture converted trailers from road to ferry. For DFDS, there is -- the picture is road 49%. And then from the ferry market, we are about 2/3 of the market and competitors carry the remaining 1/3 of the volumes. And of course, the share of the competition on the Trieste market is larger than the overall competitive share of the market. Moving to Page 21. Not a secret, and we've talked about it a while, the test turnaround progressing at a slower pace than targeted. We've done major network rightsizing. We've done major organizational changes and seen improvements from that. But of course, we need to continuously to make sure that the size of our fleet and organization matches the market. Good news is that we see much stronger commercial traction than previously with a more transparent ferry market reemerging, but also a more competitive offering in the market is securing that we now start gaining volume, whereas we previously were net loosing volumes. Martin Gade, who was both Head of the BU TES and part of the EMT is leaving DFDS and we have worked to find a replacement that soon will be announced externally. Moving to Page 23 for outlook and priorities. The outlook of our EBIT reflects the turning point and the underlying turning points that will secure the improvement. On revenue, still a low growth network that we operate in, except for North Africa. So around level on the revenue side, a significant improvement of EBIT from the DKK 520 million that Karen went through to a range of DKK 800 million to DKK 1,100 million and the drivers are the ones I talked through before. RPM rate increases across the network. Mediterranean capacity reduction, Jersey full year impact on the ferry side. And then on logistics, full year impact from the logistics boost projects and progression on BU TES turnaround. And then, of course, the cost reduction program that impacts the full group that we launched in November and when it comes at least to the reduction of employees have implemented already. The adjusted free cash flow that was DKK 1.2 billion in '25 will be above 0. And the difference to '25 is that on our working capital we launched a factoring program in '25 and that we cannot further increase. And we also had some sale of assets that kept our CapEx down. But a positive adjusted free cash flow despite an EBIT level of DKK 800 million to DKK 1100 million and CapEx of DKK 1,700 million. So, priorities '26 and '24, continued organic growth focus and then deliver on these turning points that I've walked through. Strong focus on cash flow, both working capital and capital discipline. Karen is the master of both of those. And then the green transition, we are on track to deliver on our 2030 goals. And with the EU regulatory framework, this is also financially a rewarding thing to do. And then we are committed to continue to deliver on our diversity targets. With this, over for questions.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from Ulrik Bak from Danske Bank.

The first one is on your guidance and the different building blocks, how you get to the DKK 800 million to DKK 1.1 billion in EBIT for '26. So, this year, you report DKK 520 million, and you have a cost program, which should generate DKK 300 million, which should get us to the lower end of the guidance range. But then you also talk about the price increases that should also have a positive impact. But looking at the delta, then there will only be maximum of DKK 300 million positive delta from increasing prices in the Mediterranean region and the rest of the logistics business. So please elaborate on if there's anything I've missed in there and why guidance looks as it is?

Thank you for the question, Ulrik. I think we have these 5 primary blocks delivering, probably most of them triple-digit impact. If you take one like our savings program and say that's DKK 300 million already, then, of course, it doesn't look very ambitious. Reality is, of course, that part of that DKK 300 million is spent on inflationary pressure and other cost increases around the system. So, we think we have come up with an achievable range. It's -- our credibility is maybe a little low after last year where we did not deliver the promises. So, we've spent a little time on this call to explain that the 5 elements are things that have already happened and where we can already see end of Q4 and also in January that the results are coming in. And then we have felt that this range is a prudent level. It is after all close to a doubling of our '25 results at least the upper end of the range. So, we are very comfortable with this range and very comfortable that we can deliver it also.

That's great. Then perhaps if we look a bit further, obviously, 2026 is supposed to be a transition year. So, 2027, we should see an additional uplift in earnings. If you can just again elaborate a bit on the building blocks because test, obviously, that should improve. But what about the rest of the business, again, back to the building blocks you also have for '26. How much more could we hope for 2027? If you can quantify, it would be great, but some wording would be also.

I think it's prudent here in February '26 to talk about '26. And then as we start delivering some quarterly results, we can start to speculate about what then the further uplift in '27 will be. There will be an uplift, obviously, that will be the ambition. We all know that BU TES is not where it needs to be and also the other areas, of course. But for now, I think let's focus on '26 and our ability to deliver on the range we've put out.

That's fair. And then my final question here is on the Ferry net development. If we go back to Q4 2024, you reported a negative EBIT impact from the increased competition in the region of DKK 225 million. Now this quarter, it's positive by DKK 49 million. So, if I add these 2 numbers up, I get to a minus DKK 175 million versus before Grimaldi entered the region. If I compare that number to what you reported in Q2 last year, then the negative impact from Grimaldi entering that was DKK 181 million. So that doesn't seem like a huge improvement in Q4 last year versus Q2 last year. So, and Q2 last year, that was before your price increases kicked in. So just some flavor on why didn't it improve even more in Q4 versus what you saw in Q2 before the price increases.

Maybe I'm getting slow, Ulrik, but that was a lot of comparison numbers. During Q4, what happened was that the September price increases or maybe I should say the price model was put in place. Some of the customers, some of the significant customers had commitments already for how '25 pricing should look. So, the full impact of that comes from Q1 '26, where maybe one customer is still on an old system but where the rest is now in this new system. Furthermore, it was during Q4, so in October and November that we redelivered the last 2 vessels. So, part of the improvement is also to match the demand with the supply in our system. So, you didn't see the full impact in Q4. If that's what you're challenging, we fully agree. You will see further impact as we move forward. But I don't think I here without a calculator can comment on your comparison then to the Q2, but we can maybe take that offline or you can take that offline and we can dwell into it. But you are right. You've not seen the full impact in Q4 from these initiatives.

The next question comes from the line of Lars Heindorff from Nordea.

A follow-up on Ulrik. I won't mention as many numbers perhaps. But as Ulrik pointed out, last year, you think you communicated that you made a loss of around DKK 200 million to DKK 250 million in the fourth quarter in Mediterranean. And just to get it clear, the Slide 8 that you have, which is the bridge, is that an uplift of DKK 49 million? Or is the positive income of DKK 49 million in the fourth quarter? There's quite a big difference between those 2, if it's an uplift or actually a positive EBIT.

DKK 49 million is an uplift.

Okay. So, it's an uplift from minus DKK 250 million in Q4 last year.

No, no. You have these huge numbers that you float around. I don't recall the DKK 250 million. We had a significant negative impact Q4 '24 versus Q4 '23. We did not have a loss of DKK 250 million in Q4 '24.

What was the delta?

The delta. And I think the DKK 250 million sounds a little bit on the high end. But what we are saying now is with this uplift of DKK 49 million, Q4 is a positive result in the mid. So, we never lost DKK 200 million in a quarter in the mid. Okay. All right.

And then on, on logistics, if I can read your slides correctly, then TES had lost around DKK 275 million on a full year '25. And then, of course, you have these one-off items related here in the fourth quarter. I mean what, with that, these adjustments that you have made, I mean what should we expect for TES of an earnings uplift in '26?

We, as you can see in my slides, we have a slightly lighter blue on that one, on Page 3. And this is because the uplift that we are talking about in '26 versus '25 is primarily coming from the 5 other squares on Page 3. TES continues to be in a difficult spot. We will show underlying improvements in the operation of also more than a 3-digit number in millions. But accounting-wise, some PPA adjustments and other go against us. So, we will not see it in the EBIT side. You will see on the cash flow side, we are improving. And that's, of course, not satisfactory. However, we have we have come up with a guidance for '26 that is very much based on delivering on things that we have already implemented. And that's why we are focusing on the full year impact of Boost, the full year impact of the actions in the biomed, the freight ferry pricing, the Jersey full year and the cost reduction program. It's things that we have already done. It's things that we can already see in December and particularly in January that are working. The TES is you can call it a strong point. It's a focus area, obviously, but we will not here be able to guarantee an EBIT improvement of any significance over what you referred to there.

And then just a housekeeping -- a few housekeeping questions on the CapEx guidance for '26. You write in the notes that it excludes ship tax. If it comes, if it's approved, how much will that be?

DKK 240 million.

Yes, yes, of course. And then one of my favorite subjects is on the CTU assumptions. I have to ask you because you're still assuming a 35% EBIT CAGR from '26 to 30% in the logistics. That's not significant down from what you assumed last year. And given the development that we have seen throughout last year, to me, it just comes across as being, and also now, Torben, you mentioned that we shouldn't expect to see any material improvement in TES. How can you assume an EBIT CAGR of 35% in your CTU for logistics over a 5-year period?

I think overall, Lars, it probably merits at some point, conversation also about your other assumptions in what you put out some weeks ago. But overall, we have other areas that improves a lot. As you know, we had a very challenging continent situation in 2025 with the foot and mouth disease and other issues with redundancy costs and so forth. So it is, there is other areas that drives -- when you come from a very low almost negative, right, then there's other areas that drives that growth. We have also done some -- close down of activities also in our Danish businesses, right?

So how should I then understand you have a comment on it on Page 14 in the annual report. I mean, how should I read that other than there is just massive uncertainty?

In terms of our -- are you talking about the impairment disclosures?

Yes, yes.

Yes. But I mean, there is -- we are being quite transparent about in our sensitivity analysis as well in the notes, right, that we are where we are in our impairment. We have a more conservative underlying business case we are applying for the logistics than we had last year. But obviously, also with the poor performance this year, the headroom is less, and this is why we are disclosing this the way we are.

But on a 5-year horizon, Lars, of course, TES is also contributing to this CAGR. Now you asked specifically about '26, right? But Lars, I think it's a good question. It's a fair question. We've obviously spent time with the auditors, with the business, and there is no impairment, and we are confident with the assumptions that have been applied to reach that conclusion. And then we'll just have to, I guess, take it from there as we move forward. Happy to have a more detailed discussion, of course, with you on a different time.

Yes. I'm sorry to go into the details. And just last one is on the credit ratings. If I recall it correctly, it's Scope and then S&P that you use in the dialogue.

Only Scope.

Only Scope, okay. Sorry. And there's the dialogue with those, I mean, they're fine with a 2-year period before you get below the 3.5x.

I mean, yes. So far, I mean, we are obviously in a not very frequent but regular dialogue with them. And obviously, with the release of our annual report today, we're going to have a new conversation with them. But so far, we are keeping a negative outlook but staying investment grade.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from the line of Jakub Glinkowski from RBC.

Perhaps a more general question. But obviously, we had January ferry volumes today as well. And I think it showed some constructive momentum, particularly on the passenger side, perhaps showing growth for the first time since February last year. So, I was sort of wondering if you could share any color with us what do you expect in terms of volume development over this quarter or this year?

Yes. We just announced the January volumes. Of course, in general, if you exclude North Africa, and to a certain extent, Turkey, where we see some recovery, of course, we are still in a low growth area with Baltics, North Sea channel and on the logistics side. But we have seen some signs of recovery with the, for example, the Swedish manufacturing sectors and Sweden has just historically proven to be quite a good first mover point of things recovering across Europe. And of course, we have a large Sweden exposure. So, the volumes that we see look okay. No strong growth, but at least compared to what we had expected, we are seeing the volumes coming. Of course, the weather has been a little tough, which has meant also some cancellations and stuff. But looking through that, it looks okay. On the passenger side, it's -- 2025 was tough in many markets. We compensated by more onboard spending. And there, we also expect to see some uplift in 2026. But again, with the current economies, it's not going to be game changing. And that's why in the turning points, we focused a little bit on we're taking out cost, making sure we don't have too much capacity. And this is not just in the Med. This is, of course, also reducing sailings in other markets where we can do it. And then on getting pricing up for freight customers and working even harder on the onboard spend where we have some good momentum also on some of the routes where we haven't seen it before.

The next question is a follow-up question from Ulrik Bak from Danske Bank.

Just following up on the impairment testing. In 2024 annual report in the note, it says that if there is a decrease in the annual EBIT of 10.7% per annum between '26 and '29, that if it was above that, then you should do some -- a write-down of some sort. And I guess, 2025, the original guidance for logistics on EBIT was DKK 300 million. In 2026, it's DKK 50 million to DKK 250 million, which is a decline much higher than the 10%. Obviously, I know that there can be a rebound. But still, it seems -- yes, just some more comments because I also see that you have declined or changed the goodwill from logistics section to ferry, whether that has an impact on the way we look at the impairment testing.

Thank you, Ulrik. To answer your last question first, obviously, with moving more than DKK 1 billion from logistics CGU to the ferry freight CGU, there's obviously DKK 1 billion less on the balance sheet for the logistics CGU. So yes, that has an impact. This is done because the value of the Ekol acquisition, to a large extent, sits with both entities, right, to both divisions. So, this is to reflect that. So that means that obviously, the book value is less. Coming back to your other question, again, as Torben said, we have done our projections. I also mentioned they are more conservative than what we had last year. We have done our testing. We've discussed it with the auditors. We've discussed it with the Board, and the conclusion is that there is no impairment.

Understood. Then final question here is on your green CapEx levels. At the CMD back in 2023, you outlined a CapEx plan, which in some years should reach more than DKK 3 billion per year towards the end of the decade. Just some comments on whether these are still fair numbers to apply or if something has changed.

Well, if I can -- maybe Karen can come back on the numbers then. But I think we have obviously had to review our tonnage plan given our current performance. We've also grown wiser in terms of the green transformation, what is required and what can be handled in different ways. So, we are reworking this. There will still be CapEx, obviously, for new buildings, but it may look a little bit differently than -- or it will look differently than what you saw in '23. And this will also impact the levels. We can see that we can do some conversions instead of new buildings as one element. But I think we can be a little smarter and give a little more guidance when we get to Q1 or Q2 on this as we are also reworking this internally at the moment. Karen, I don't know if you want to add anything.

No, but that's exactly right. Obviously, due to the drop in earnings, we have to constantly look at our plan. And then as our normal planning cycle, we are then doing an overall update of our longer-term now in the coming quarters, and we'll discuss that with the Board and so forth before we can start saying anything new about it. But I mean, our tonnage plan -- replacement plan is, of course, something that we constantly look at. And that includes moving to more greener fuel in the vessels.

But what I hear is it's probably going to be less than DKK 3 billion in some of those years, if you say you can do it smarter and other ways.

Yes. I think we already mentioned that we have seen that, for example, on the channel that the electrification there is probably going to happen through conversion of existing vessels rather than new buildings. So, it will be lower volumes than what you have seen before -- lower value, sorry, than you've seen before.

The next question is a follow-up from Lars Heindorff from Nordea.

Sorry, staying with my favorite subject, which is goodwill. So, when you acquired Ekol, if I recall it correctly, out of the roughly DKK 1.8 billion that you paid for it, I think most of that was before, not all was goodwill. Back then, I think that you allocated around DKK 1.2 billion or DKK 1.1 billion to the ferry division and around DKK 600-ish million in the logistics upon the time of the acquisition. With the movement of goodwill from logistics into more goodwill into the ferry division, are there any goodwill left from Ekol in the logistics division?

That's the same.

It's the same. The transaction was not -- did not happen at year-end. It happened before Q1. That's why. That's what I'm referring back to.

Okay. Sorry.

We closed the year, goodwill was last year 2024, the goodwill -- all the goodwill from the Ekol acquisition set with logistics.

No, no. So, it's the same DKK 1.1 billion that we had disclosed before.

[Operator Instructions] Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question. I would now like to turn the conference back over to Torben Carlsen for any closing remarks.

Thank you very much. And let me just wrap up. Thank you very much for good participation, good questions. Some of them we may have to, as mentioned, take offline for more details. We've tried to demonstrate that we believe we have actions in place that have already been taken that will produce the results that will support our 2026 guidance. And hopefully, we gave you further comfort around that during the call. So, thank you very much for joining the call, and thank you very much for your questions. Have a continued good day.