DFS Furniture plc (DFS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon. I'm Tim Stacey, Group CEO for the DFS Group. I'm delighted to introduce today our group ESG strategy. Shortly, I will hand over to Sally Hopson, who, as well as being the CEO of Sofology, has led the development of this strategy on behalf of our group for the past 18 months. As I said in the full year presentation, we see ESG as a huge opportunity rather than an obligation, and we are embedding this into the way we do business across our group. Personally, I know how important this is to our customers and our stakeholders. When I first got the role of group CEO, my teenage children were very quick to ask what I was going to do about old sofas going to landfill, amongst many other ideas, to create a more sustainable business. This is a massive topic, and we are just starting our journey to land the ESG agenda as the leader in our market. So without further ado, I will hand over to Sally to take you through more details of our plan.

Thanks, Tim. We're excited today to take you through our ESG journey thus far. And I use the term journey deliberately as we recognize that we're on a journey, an ever-evolving journey, as we understand more about the opportunities and challenges we face in making our business stronger, more robust and better for us all, customers, colleagues, investors and the planet. There's been some excellent work done over the years in a number of areas, but for the first time this year we've pulled it together into a coordinated action plan with clear accountability in future phases. Today, we'll discuss why we believe having a positive approach to ESG is an important measure to us, our approach, our status and our next steps. So why is ESG important to us? We've always been a value-driven business, and we care deeply about our work, our colleagues and our role in the world. In the ever-changing environment we find ourselves in, we'll continue to care and to have a strong desire to do the right thing. We don't claim to be perfect, but we'll always do our very best. And our colleagues, our customers, our stakeholders, all expect the sofas rightly, they hold us to a very high standard. As the market leader in sofas, we feel an obligation now to take the lead and show the way forward, recognizing that our plans will help grow the business and mitigate risks. We truly believe that a strong ESG agenda, well communicated to customers and colleagues alike, can drive customer preference and, therefore, drive our results. We don't see this as an obligation, but as an opportunity. We know that all 3 areas of ESG play a vital role in building a robust overall strategy. We also know that good plans start with a degree of prioritization. Simply put, we can't do everything at once. We already have strong standards in place on governance, have always aspired to be an employer of choice and enjoy good relationships with our suppliers. For example, DFS has run a successful apprenticeship program for a number of years and embeds the Duke of Edinburgh's Award scheme into the program to help with the confidence, character and team working skills of young people whilst they're training for a new role. We continue to challenge ourselves on G and S. For example, new gender and diversity targets have been set across the group. But we've chosen to focus on our environmental plans as our first step on our journey and have made this our priority for 2020, and this is the focus of this update. So how did we approach building out our areas of focus? By recognizing that we don't have all the answers or even all the right questions. We've consulted widely across the business through external benchmarking and within our sector, and beyond the sectors more advanced than us, we've established partnerships with experts to help us. And as a group, we've used all this input to agree our phase 1 priorities. And we're currently repeating the entire process to help us develop phase 2 and phase 3. As we said at the outset, we're on a journey. And what do we learn? We observed 4 main themes. Sofa selling companies vary enormously in the effort and ambition they put into ESG, and no one is really focused on sofa-specific ESG. We learn that sustainability now is circular, how to ensure more efficient use of all resources and that much of the activity is behind the scenes. But leading brands create a small number of consumer-facing initiatives to help set the agenda. And from our learnings, we've agreed our guiding principles; opportunity not obligation. We see this as a way to be a better business and, therefore, want to embed our ESG plans into our business growth strategy. I'm often asked how big a team we need to work on this. Our reply is that we own, as an exec team, we need to embed it within our teams, set targets and work on it as if it were any other business priority or isn't truly embedded in the organization. We believe this will keep us focused on the way forward and indeed prepare us when opportunity becomes obligation. Circular, we need to consider the entire life cycle of our sofas and how to improve each stage one step at a time. Foundation versus flagship. Whilst many ESG initiatives and targets are behind the scenes, important but not truly visible, for example, measuring and managing water consumption, and we should be addressing these areas, and we are. There's also the opportunity in parallel to develop a small number of flagship initiatives, which are consumer-facing and help drive momentum and awareness, but you do need to do both. And partnerships. We very quickly learned that engaging with experts is not only essential for credibility, it helps you go faster. And so the sofa cycle was born, which is our framework to help us make sofas more comfortable for all, designed to be engaging, effective and flexible so we can accommodate new initiatives and targets as we develop them. It was originally designed as a colleague communication tool, but we now believe it helps with our external comms, too. So starting at the top of the sofa cycle with sourcing materials. We have, for many years, worked closely with our suppliers to ensure that they use sustainable wood in our sofa frames and responsibly sourced leather on our sofas, asking our suppliers annually to self-certify. We recognize that the world now requires a higher standard of certification. Therefore, we've agreed with our suppliers that our sofa frames will be made from 100% FSC-certified wood by 2025, and that we will have conducted an independent audit on our leather sourcing by December 2021, providing further rigor on our existing policy that no leather used in our sofas will cause Amazonian deforestation. We want to use our scale and scope to help instill higher standards throughout our supply chain in the U.K. and abroad. You'll note, I said sofa frames. We do as a group sell other items, e.g., coffee tables that contain wood. As part of our prioritization, we're focused on surface, after all 97% of our sales are sofas. It doesn't mean we think other areas unimportant, and we'll address these in phase 2. Our sofas do last, with a guarantee frame life of between 15 and 20 years, it's more likely that a customer wants to change for any number of reasons, moving home and it doesn't fit, fabrics worn out or they just want a new look. So we're now considering how to make sofas last even longer and to be easier to recycle. Sofables by DFS is a new range designed to be flexible to lifestyle changes. You can add pieces as the family grows or as you move house. So it's flexibility engineered into the design. We believe owning our own factories is an advantage in the future in helping us face into these design opportunities. It's not only about the sofa design, it's also about how it's designed. As an example, staples are widely used to attach fabric to wooden frames, but they make the recycling of the wood much more difficult as the staples need to be removed. When we were discussing this with our suppliers, we realized that the largest course of accidents in the factories is using the stapler gun. So this could be a real win-win when we collectively find a better way. So another great example of ESG helping improve the whole customer journey. Shipping our sofas from the manufacturer to our distribution centers is a complex task. We used to bring all containers through 1 or 2 major ports, but now we've undertaken a piece of work to bring the containers into the port nearest to the relevant depot, which will reduce road miles as a result by 10% by 2022. A very large driver of our CO2 emissions is our delivery fleet. The creation of The Sofa Delivery Company and combining our group deliveries will lead to an improved customer offer and significant less fuel usage, reducing our CO2 emissions by 10% by 2023. We're committed to reviewing new technology annually to identify the point when new technology will allow us to move to a hybrid or electric fleet. It isn't there yet, but we feel it's very close, and this will be a major step forward. We're already well advanced in ensuring that all our sofa packaging is recyclable with a target of 100% being recyclable by December 2020. We have another advantage as we unpack and take away the vast majority of packaging from our customers' homes, so we can ensure it's recycled appropriately. We've decided to remove polystyrene from our sofa packaging by the end of the year. Whilst it can be recycled, it is difficult to do so and alternatives are available. When we consulted with our drivers, they told us that they detest polystyrene as it leaves a mess all over the customers' carpet, which they then need to clean up. So another example where our ESG thinking is leading to a better colleague and customer journey. Ensuring our sofas are disposed of responsibly is one of our flagship initiatives, which I'll talk to more later. Sofas aren't easy to recycle as some of the parts isn't worth very much. So how can we rethink this challenge is our current direction of thought. So in rethinking it, Sofology will launch the Pioneer sofa for Green Friday this year, which is made up of almost entirely recycled elements. It's 100% foam-free; the pillows are made from recycled plastic bottles; the fabric is made from recycled fibers; the seat cushions are made from recycled fibers; and it's 100% recyclable springs. And more importantly, it's a phenomenally comfortable sofa and a very commercial design. So where are we in 2020? In summary, we now have a series of robust and challenging foundation targets to deliver, which will be a real difference in the entire businesses behind. We've committed to offsetting our carbon emissions 100% by working with Woodland Trust to ensure not only are the required number of trees planted, but the right trees are planted and in the right place. So it's not just about numbers and Woodland Trust understand this. Permanence is required for carbon offsetting to be truly effective, hence, our choice of partner. With the Woodland Trust largest U.K. carbon mitigation partnership, and we'll plant just short of 95,000 trees, covering 146 acres of native woodland to offset our scope 1 and scope 2 emissions. Our phase 1 targets, in summary, cover wood, leather, transport and packaging. Whilst there are some excellent initiatives to reduce carbon emissions, such as Sofa Delivery Company, we haven't yet agreed on overall carbon reduction target for the group. We're working with the Carbon Trust to identify all the opportunities across the group, and we'll be able to share a target for 2025 during 2021. Captured in one table, each KPIs owned by a member of our exec team with an element of bonus attached to it. As a group, we review them quarterly at the exec level and then biannually by the Plc Board. And we're in the process of establishing a colleague council to help us with this agenda. We're all in this together. So on to our first flagship initiatives. And Sofa Rescue for me highlights everything we've said about ESG improving the business for everyone. We know a real pain point for customers and potential customers is getting rid of their old sofa. Doing so in a responsible way is even more challenging as many end up in landfill. In partnership with Clearabee, we've developed Sofa Rescue. When we remove you old sofa a day or 2 before your new sofa is delivered, and Clearabee ensures it's disposed of responsibly, avoiding landfill largely through energy production. Having been developed initially in DFS, this offer has now been extended across the group. Here's a short video to show how it works. [Presentation]

And our customers and colleagues love the offer with up to 10% of our customers choosing to have their sofa collected. In Sofology, we wanted to do more than offset our carbon. We wanted to find a way to make a positive difference to the environment in which we will live and Plan Tree was born. We plant a tree for every sofa order in partnership with the Woodland Trust, using U.K.-native species to help with biodiversity. We'll plant over 100,000 trees, and we actively promote this with customers and clients. It started as a trial for Green Friday and proved so popular we now do it all year around, a great example of how we can take a test-and-learn approach. The group will extend this offer to DFS and Dwell in spring 2021. And as a group, we'll then be planting over 700,000 trees per year. Here is a short film to show how it works. [Presentation]

Green Friday is helping us make a real difference to the environment. It's not coincidental the 2 films we have relate to the flagship initiatives. We've created these films for use on social media to share our work with customers and colleagues alike as one of the definitions for flagship initiatives is that they're customer-facing. And that's phase 1. We said at the outset, we're on a journey. And whilst we're working hard to deliver phase 1, phase 2 is already in development. There's still work to do on leather sourcing and sofa feet, and we want to begin work on fabric and foam, too. How can we produce fabrics which are easier to recycle? Are there alternatives to foam? We'll build upon the areas we've already started, for example, FSC for occasional furniture, and we'll build out Sofa Rescue 2.0. Avoiding landfill is a good start, but ultimately, we want to be able to find more innovative ways of helping our customers to reuse or recycle their sofa. We're at the start of looking at the marketplace and sofa rental. We'll also be spending considerable time and effort in building out our people plans with a view to add a third flagship initiative next year to support our desire to be an employer of choice. Our working hypothesis is to find ways to create high-quality part-time work to suit the increasing need for flexibility amongst the modern workforce. There is still much to do. Here are all our phase 1 ESG targets. And in summary, we believe ESG is an opportunity for us to build an even better and stronger business and engage all our stakeholders on our journey. It isn't just an obligation. We need to learn to think in a more circular way throughout the entire life cycle of a sofa. We'll work on our foundation goals while using flagship programs to make a positive difference and engage customers and colleagues in the overall ESG agenda. We're on a journey, and we embrace the fact this is a rapidly developing agenda, requiring us to be agile and receptive to change. Our plan is ambitious, yet considerate. And phase 1 does not add cost into the business, it's about doing things in a smarter way. The whole business is engaged in our drive, which is led by our senior team. We look forward to updating you on our progress on phase 1 and phase 2 next year. Further details, including our targets, will be available on the corporate website from Monday. Thank you for your time. We now have time for Q&A.

So -- and thank you very much, Sally, for that presentation. Hopefully, you found that informative and helpful. I think the slides will be on the corporate website for you to review. And now we're over to some Q&A.

So perhaps over to you, Phil, for the first question.

We should have Jonathan Pritchard on the line from Peel Hunt.

Yes. It's just about the supply chain, I suppose. Does the environmental situation make you more inclined to move towards a more vertically integrated approach? Obviously, Far East supply, et cetera, brings issues with it coming into ports, et cetera. Is there -- does that make you discuss -- maybe think that, that might be an answer?

I think it's part of the answer. I think we've got a lot of thinking to do on the supply chain in the long term. We have an advantage, in that we have a degree of vertical integration already with our own factories in the U.K., and it's a very live topic, but I don't think we know what the answer is yet. Classically, the ESG agenda is a very rapidly developing situation, and we're thinking about different things all the time. At the end of the day, we also have to produce sofas that are affordable, comfortable, well designed and that our customers want. And sometimes, we have to accept that those are not all made here or by us at this stage.

Yes. And I think, Jonathan, we talked this morning, didn't we, about -- from a vertical integration point of view. I think the concept of near shoring is a trend overall in the world is happening, and it's something that we're focused on. We do -- I think as Sally said, there's a number of dimensions, though, there's the cost, there's the quality, there's the capacity, there's the lead times. But the ESG or the E element of this is definitely a factor. So it's in our thinking, and we'll come back to you, I think, in the interim in the spring with some thinking around that.

Next question is from Andrew Wade at Jefferies.

You talked about these initiatives being sort of profit neutral or indeed potentially contributing to the group and sort of everyone win-type situation. Could you give us some background on how that's working out with the initiatives you've got underway at this time with Sofa Rescue and Plan Tree? Are they profit neutral or contributing to the group? Or how is that working out?

Thank you. Sofa Rescue is a service that we charge our customers for, but we don't make any money from it. We just aim to breakeven. So we're net neutral on that. Plan Tree, we do pay for the trees that the Woodland Trust plant for us. But we actually see it as consumer-facing initiative that we've diverted marketing funds into it as a driver of preference. And Sofology, being a little bit further ahead, we're tracking customer preference on this and how the brand is perceived. And we can see really strong movements in how customers are perceiving the brand as a result of that initiative. So that's not incremental cost, it's just diversion of existing cost.

And I guess other things in terms of packaging recycling, which we're getting more effective at having all of our packaging recyclable and then a high, high percentage recycled. When we then bail it out properly, we get good returns from the recycling companies on that, so that's income, increased income. And we've got reduced costs from a mileage point of view, particularly, Sally talked about Sofa Delivery Company and cutting down the amount of miles we do, obviously, that's part of a cost saving. So there's a bit swings and roundabouts, but overall, it's very much cost neutral.

Great. And just on -- going back to the Sofa Rescue there, how much do you charge for that? And I think you mentioned the take-up rate from customers on it as well, I missed it, sorry.

Yes. It's up to 10% for customers and it's GBP 89 to have your sofa up to 3 items removed and recycled appropriately.

Next is Michael Benedict from Berenberg.

Yes, a couple from me, if that's okay. Just firstly, how you plan on holding yourselves accountable to the targets you set? The second one, just on customer communication, I think you mentioned you'd be communicating by social media channels. Is there any other sort of channel-wide initiatives you're using to communicate this to your customer base?

Okay. Which one shall we take first?

Well, do you want to go about the customer comm amounts we were holding to account because that's ultimately -- I have to do that.

So the customer communication, this starts in store, and it starts with your colleagues being really fired up, really believing in what you're doing. And one of the great things about the ESG agenda is the colleagues absolutely buy into it. So it's not something that's a hard sell. It's a genuine belief that they're working for a business that's trying to make a difference in the right way and then sharing that excitement with the customer. There's more traditional routes, so there's POS in-store. If you have a Sofa Rescue, for example, you get a follow-up e-mail, saying thanks very much. Clearabee, our partners, also plant trees to offset their carbon, so there's a nice circular story there. And that's the extent of it currently, but we're so excited about it. We have shot those films to be able to use it on social media and digital channels. Do I ever think it would be part of something larger? Very possibly. The customer appetite for this is growing and growing. And our ability to distinguish ourselves as the market leader with a unique service at the moment, I think, is something quite special on the commercial front as well as the ESG front. So we'll constantly review what we're doing, how we're talking to customers about it. But we're very proud of all these initiatives, and I think we should be quite loud and proud about them.

Yes. And I think in terms of holding ourselves to account, we have published some targets, which are in the detail in the presentation, which we will commit to updating on it every at least annually. We meet biannually as a Board to run through what we're doing. And also every single member of the leadership team, including myself, we have -- within our personal objectives, we have a specific objective to do with ESG that's relevant for the area that you are looking after. And so therefore, it's my job as the leader to make sure that all of the functions are fully embedding ESG into the way we do business. So there's a whole bunch of governance around it to make sure that it's truly embedded.

And we're also establishing a colleague council of elected volunteers from across all the brands to also help develop the agenda, but also help -- hold us to account on the agenda to make sure that what we think is happening is happening throughout the organization. We had hoped to have that in place now, but our election got somewhat kiboshed by the lockdown. So we just need to get that back on track. But we're quite excited about that, again, leveraging that colleague natural excitement for this topic.

We should have Georgios Pilakoutas from Numis.

The first one is, could you talk a bit more about Clearabee and how your partnership works for them? Is it kind of a formal JV? Or is it just kind of a partnership where you're driving orders towards them? And does that leverage your infrastructure? I thought -- well, I guess theoretically, you're dropping off the sofa, you could pick the sofa up at the same time. Or is that not quite how things are working today, could that potentially happen? And one on -- was it Pioneer Sofa that the kind of are 100% recyclable. I guess is there anything else similar in this space? How kind of unique do you think that will be and a bit of a kind of a selling point that you'll be able to kind of help sell extension on that is vegan sofa? Is that -- vegan kind of feels like the buzzword at the moment. Is that something that you'd be looking to do and that's kind of the innovation on the new product development side?

I'll go in reverse order and talk about Pioneer Sofa first. It's not the only one in the market, but we're certainly the largest sofa specialist to have that product available. And as always, with Sofology, we've been -- it's our brief, it's our design, it's a very modern design. It's a phenomenally comfortable sofa, I went to see it a couple of weeks ago. It is more expensive using all these recycled items. And part of the test when we launch on Green Friday, we'll be at war with customer propensity to pay a bit more for the recycled elements. So we will certainly be making a lot of noise, hence the timing of Green Friday. About its credentials, it's not hugely more expensive, it's probably a couple of hundred pounds at retail, but nonetheless, that is more expensive. And then we'll do some research, and we'll learn. So are people buying it because they love the sofa? Or are they buying it because they love its credentials and love the sofa? And we've just got to work through that balance. We've also got to work out whether or not this is niche or we can extend this to more sofas? So if it is popular with customers, I think it will be. Then how extendable is that? You know how many -- how much fabric made from plastic bottles can we acquire? And obviously, the more you can acquire, generally, economics will say the price will come down and, therefore, that will make it more accessible. So there's a lot riding on the Pioneer for us because I think we're going to take a lot of learning out of it, good and bad, and then we'll be able to plot the next stage. And as a good example, we've worked closely with one of our suppliers in partnership with them. They've done a lot of really good work on this as well.

The concept of vegan sofa, please.

As my binder, I'd like to tell you vegan sofa is actually core plastic. And actually, plastic is not necessarily a good thing. So there are some very good fabrics coming on to the market that look like leather. And we're starting -- there's a couple coming out of Italy at the moment. We're starting to have a look at that. If you really wanted that leather look, but you don't want leather because you've got -- you're a vegan, then you've really got to have a fabric sofa. So we're just beginning to explore that.

And then in terms of Clearabee, the way that works is we've got an exclusive partnership in the sofa market with them. They have an amazing infrastructure around the country, so it's nationwide, where they use their smaller vehicles, I mean 3.5 tonne vehicles, to come and collect the old sofa some -- a day before the new sofa arrives. So that's how it's currently working. We have looked at whether we can use our own vehicles from a Sofa Delivery point of view and the classic thing where we drop the new one off and pick the old one up. That said, we're mixing the supply chain there. But that is part of our longer-term thinking as to whether we can do that in partnership with Clearabee. The key thing that Clearabee have is great relationships with recycling centers up and down the country where they have external validation that they are avoiding landfill, and that's important to us. So they are an excellent partner.

And it's quite interesting piece of test and learn. So we had assumed the fact that Clearabee collected the day before may be a deterrent is using the service. Actually, the majority of customers quite like it, collected the day before, because very practically, they clean the room, they paint the room, they hoover the carpet and then the new sofa arrives. And that's been a bit surprising to us. So it's a good example of when you push these things out to market, you've just got to be really agile and flexible and work out the right way of doing it in the long term.

So Olivier Townsend from UBS isn't able to ask a question in person, but she sent one through is, do you already do what would you consider a trade-in program for sofas?

We don't do a trade-in program for sofas per se. And would we consider it? Yes. In our longer-term thinking about how you reuse and recycle sofas more, I think that's going to be very much part of our consideration. Remember, people on average own a sofa for just over 7 years, so it's quite a long-term purchase. But there are many people who own them for longer than that. They are very robust items. They last longer than 7 years. The reason people change is rarely because it's worn out. So therefore, the opportunity to reuse, upcycle, recycle feels like it's there. And we just need to explore that as part of really Sofa Rescue 2.0, how can we help customers extend the life of their sofa.

So we've had a few questions coming through online as well. So the first question is in relation to carbon dioxide mitigation and reduction, what areas of the business have you highlighted as quick wins to reduce your CO2?

The quickest and biggest win for us will always be improvements in our delivery network through supply chain because the major use of -- the major cause of carbon is the delivery fleet. So for Rescue -- I'm sorry, I think I was -- it's not rescue, Sofa Delivery Company makes a big inroad into that, 10% saving by 2023. The big change there will be where we can move to a hybrid or electric 7.5 tonne vehicle fleet that's able to deliver sofas. Technology just isn't there yet, but we do think it's close. We've committed to a formal annual review that we'll publish as to why we think -- if it's not ready, why we think that and what we've discovered. But we genuinely think we're not that far off that happening. And we renew our fleet over a 5- or 6-year period. So relatively quickly, we could change all our fleet, and that would make an enormous difference. That would be probably the biggest step forward we could make. The other areas of opportunity are actually just a whole of really small things like lighting in-store, changing it to LED, understanding how we can have more efficient energy systems. They're all important, but they're not step change, and we'll do them all because they're sensible, they reduce emissions, they reduce cost. But it's really the delivery network that is a major focus for us.

Yes. And we've just changed the company car policy this week...

We have.

To encourage colleagues to take up hybrid and electric, incentivize those types of switches. And again, over time, that will make a difference. But as Sally said, the biggest difference is the vehicle fleet. Sofa Delivery company, I think 10% is an achievable target, and we want to go further really.

So another question online, just delving into the S of ESG, what is your position on diversity as a business?

And our position is we want a diverse business. And we have very clear policies and really clear standards on that. This year, we've reset all our agenda diversity targets to be much more ambitious. We all share them. It's another example of where they're all -- they're part of all our bonus schemes and actually quite a long way down the organization as well. We recognize there's a lot more to do on all the other areas of diversity, and we're going to make that a real focus this year. Other than age, they're more complicated because they have to be regional. Your targets have to be regional because your diversity in your store estate and your depots needs to reflect your local population and your customer base. Whereas -- so gender is the same target across the country, you can't do that in other areas. You've got to be more sophisticated. And that actually requires quite a lot of work and thinking as to what are our initiatives to support where the support is needed. So I think it is a really hot topic. I am not embarrassed by where we are, but we've got a lot more work to do.

Yes. And it just makes just good business sense to have a diverse set of colleagues that reflect our customers. And we can see that across the country, actually, and I think we're making good progress. But there is more to do in probably the support offices. It's probably fair to say that we have plans for that. And again, as part of our ESG agenda, S is a big focus for this coming year. We've been working on E very heavily for -- as you see, for the last 18 months, but S becomes the sort of people aspect of it. We've got a number of things that we'll be working on the next sort of 12 months or so.

And then the last question of the day online is around marketing activity in terms of capitalizing on sustainability movement.

Marketing activity?

So if I've understood the correct -- question correctly is it -- how can we capitalize on that through our marketing programs with our customers? I think we've touched on earlier. As we launch things like Plan Tree and Sofa Rescue, you've just got to work out how to communicate those to the customer in addition to everything else that we are saying. I think that noise, that movement will grow. And I think what's exciting for the group is we feel now that we have a plan. We're not saying it's a complete plan. We're going to keep working at it. But we've got things to talk about, we've got things we're proud of, we've got our colleagues engaged behind this activity plan. So I think there's lots of opportunity to consider how we continue to market. At the end of the day, we'll always want great sofas at great prices that are really comfortable. The core of what we do is how you wrap all these messages around that for me.

I think it's got to be authentic as well. It's going to be real. You know it's got to matter to customers, and we'll adjust that in terms of timing. But I think the Green Friday initiative that you took on last year for Sofology really cut through and mattered and made a difference to brand preference and did drive sofa sales. So I think we can hit some sweet spots when we've got even more to say. So it's more marketing required, slightly different marketing. Okay. Thank you very much and -- for you attention, again. Thanks once again, Sally, for all the great work, and we're in the beginning of the journey. Thank you.

We are. Thank you.