Dishman Carbogen Amcis Limited (DCAL) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Dishman Carbogen Amcis Limited Q3 FY '20 earnings conference call. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Mark Griffiths, Global CEO. Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Griffiths.

Thank you very much, moderator. I hope wherever you all are in the world that you're having a good and safe day. And I want to run through a couple of points. First of all, I want to give apologies for Mr. Arpit Vyas. Unfortunately, he's been unavoidably detained. So he won't be joining us today. But I'll take you through the summary, and then I'll hand over to our CFO, Mr. Harshil Dalal, and then we'll hand over to our independent director, Mr. Sanjay Majmudar for any final comments. As you can see from the presentation, we've had a pretty strong quarter, especially in CRAMS. We continue to make really good progress on [indiscernible] issues in India, and we're about 80% through those items now, which is remarkable progress. And we're very confident that we'll be able to meet the end time point for that and get ourselves back and qualified in India. The market generally remains very, very strong, especially for CRAMS. As you can see from the pipeline, the pipeline continues to be very strong. As it relates to Marketable Molecules, we still see very, very good interest and strong growth in the Vitamin D analogues. Our cholesterol business is stable, which is also very good. And our disinfectant and quaternary compound business remains interesting to customers, and we're making progress there as well. COVID, however, does remain a challenge to manage. We are managing it along with every other company in the world, but it is a challenge. Generally, one of the biggest issues we've seen is a rapid rise in transportation and logistic costs, and we're obviously managing that with our clients as we move forward. And of course, a general worry is that there are crazy rising prices, especially in Central Europe for basic utilities like gas, electricity, water, et cetera. And again, these are challenges that we have to manage at least in the short term. But in a general sense, the business is moving forward. The trajectory is as we have planned and as we've all talked about over the last couple of years. So what I'd like to do now is to hand over to Mr. Harshil Dalal, our CFO, and we will take you through some of the headline numbers. Thank you very much. I'm looking forward to an energetic and interesting discussion. Over to you, Harshil.

Thank you very much, Mark. Hello, everybody. I hope you, your families are safe during this COVID time. As far as the quarter is concerned, it was a very strong quarter for us at a consolidated level. We clocked a revenue of INR 562 crores for the quarter ended December 31, 2021. And this translates into a 9 months performance of INR 1,571 crores as against INR 1,382 crores for the 9 months last year. Our gross margins remained strong as well. So we had a gross margin of around 77% for the quarter and about 81% for the 9 months. So as we have been saying, our gross margins are typically in the range of about 80%, 82%. So we are very much on target for that. The employee expenses during the quarter does show an increase as compared to comparable quarter last year. But one of the major reasons is basically, we require -- people require the scientists in order to in order to make sure that we are able to fulfill the pipeline, the strong pipeline that we have on the development side. As you can see from the presentation, typically, our development pipeline is around $90 million, $95 million. As against that, right now, we have a development pipeline of about $115 million. So there's additional employee expenses would translate into incremental revenue in the near to long-term future. The other expenses stood at about INR 68 crores, INR 69 crores as compared to INR 82 crores in the previous quarter and INR 96 crores in the comparable quarter last year. So we had a certain reversal of provisions in the current quarter which was -- and these provisions were done in the first 6 months, which were no longer required and hence, you see a lower other expenses. All of this translated into an EBITDA of about INR 109.5 crores for the quarter and INR 309 crores for the first 9 months. So our EBITDA margin for the quarter stood at about 19% and about 20% for the 9 months as compared to about 13% in the comparable quarter last year and a similar kind of number for the 9 months FY '21. As far as our finance cost is concerned, that more or less remains in line with what we had last year, which is close to about INR 40 crores for the first 9 months. And we reported a profit before tax of about INR 38 crores for the quarter, which translates into about INR 81 crores for the 9 months as compared to a loss of INR 51 crores for the first 9 months of last year. The tax rate of 8% that you can see for the quarter, that's largely because of certain tax provisions that were done in the first 6 months because of the new tax regime that our Swiss subsidiary now has, largely because of the of the corporate tax reforms that have been now implemented, which effectively reduces the tax rates in Switzerland. So on a conservative basis, we have made some provisions, which are also reversed in the current quarter as those are no longer required. So this translates into a reported PAT of INR 35 crores for the quarter, which translates into about INR 62 crores for the 9 months ended December 31, 2021. As far as our segment-wise breakup is concerned, we keep on seeing a good amount of improvement as far as the CRAMS India business is concerned. We reported a revenue of about INR 40 crores for the third quarter and INR 111 crores for the 9 months in the current financial year, as compared to INR 40 crores last year for the first 9 months. So as Mark mentioned, we are seeing an uptick in the revenue uptick in the customer orders, we have a very strong order book for the CRAMS India business, which now we are trying to fulfill. We have received clearances from most of our customers to restart the production. And most of the plants in the Bavla facility are now up and running, and that should translate into a higher amount of revenue in the coming quarters as well. As far as the Swiss, France and China business is concerned, that reported one of the strongest quarter that we have seen. So close to about INR 393 crores of revenue in the quarter, which is a growth of about 31% as compared to Q3 of last year. And for the first 9 months, that translates into INR 996 crores of revenue. CRAMS UK reported a revenue of about INR 28 crores and -- for the quarter, and that's about INR 94 crores for the 9 months ended December 31, 2021. So as far as the CRAMS segment is concerned, we reported a revenue of INR 461 crores, which is a growth of 34% as compared to Q3 of last year. And on a 9-month basis, we reported a revenue of INR 1,200 crores as compared to INR 1,045 crores reported in the 9 months of FY '21. So this represents a 15% growth in the CRAMS revenue. As far as the Marketable Molecules segment is concerned, the major contributor is Carbogen Amcis BV, our Dutch subsidiary. It reported a revenue of INR 54 crores for the quarter and INR 242 crores for the 9 months as compared to INR 64 crores for the quarter and INR 189 crores for the 9 months of FY '21. We did not see those many shipments of vitamin D analogues in the last quarter, and that is the reason you see a dip in revenue as compared to last year. But as we have been mentioning, it's difficult to compare us on a quarterly basis. So in the current quarter, we are expecting a good amount of shipment of vitamin D analogues out of that subsidiary. And that would mean a significantly strong year for Carbogen Amcis BV. As far as the other segment is concerned, which largely includes our traditional products from India, that reported of INR 46 crores of revenue for the quarter and INR 127 crores for the 9 months. All of this put together resulted into Marketable Molecules segment reporting a revenue of INR 100 crores for the quarter and INR 370 crores for the first 9 months. So that was as far as the revenues were concerned. And as far as the margins are concerned, I mean, you can see that CRAMS India is now reporting a positive EBITDA revenues that we are generating right now from the products that we delivered in December quarter as well as for the first 9 months. And this can just keep on getting better as we move into the future. CRAMS Switzerland, France, China reported close to 20%, 21% margin and that's pretty much on track. CRAMS U.K. on a 9-month basis reported at 18.6% margin, Carbogen Amcis BV 30% margin as compared to 34.5% in the 9 months of last year, and that is largely on account of lower supplies of Vitamin D analogues, which should happen in the current quarter. So that was as far as the margins on a segment wise basis is concerned. As far as the net debt is concerned, that has increased in the current quarter and that is mainly on account of the expansion that we are undertaking right now between Switzerland and France. So some -- since some of the CapEx is front-ended, we had to take certain debt, which is obviously available at very cheap cost. So our net debt, excluding lease liabilities, stands at $122 million as on December 30, 2021, and the capital expenditure that was incurred in the last quarter was about $20 million. [Technical Difficulty]

Hello sir. Kindly stay connected, the line has got disconnected.

I am still here.

Yes, I am also there. So we are back in the call. You may please proceed. Thank you.

Is it all -- everybody is connected on the call?

Line has been connected, you can continue.

Yes. So the capital expenditure for the first 9 months is close to about $50 million, and we expect another 10 million of 10 million to 15 million of additional CapEx to happen in the last quarter. But the expansion program that we have set, that's very much on track, and we expect the commercial operations in France to begin in January of 2023. I think with that, I'd like to hand over the call to our independent director, Mr. Sanjay Majmudar for his comments. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Harshil. Thank you, Mark. Good afternoon to everyone. So I think the highlight of the quarter, as explained by Mark and Harshil is that things are on track. Everything is looking good. Globally, the businesses are looking very, very robust, be it Carbogen Amcis, that is the main Switzerland operations, Holland operations, France operations, even China is picking up. And from an Indian perspective, I think we are coming closer to the last mile phase of the corrective action plan for the EDQM, hopefully, by first quarter of next year, if the acceptance is there. Then I think next year, we should see more or less Dishman India, including Bavla, coming back to the original normal cells because most of the customers have already approved the facilities. And I think overall, everything looks to be on track. And hopefully, next year should be the complete normalcy plus the normal growth. And obviously, a significant growth in the margins, thanks to India stopping even minor marginal losses and coming back to the positive trajectory. I think with this moderator let's throw the house open for Q&A.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from line of Nishid Shah with Ambika Fin Capital.

Congratulations on a good set of numbers. My first question is to Mark on the products business. We had 3 segments on the vitamin D derivatives, the antibiotics and on the antidepressants. So can you elaborate what is the progress? And what is the status now on each of these areas, please?

Yes. I think we -- let's take the vitamin D analogues first. That is a market that is relatively stable at the moment. What we see is incremental growth on low-volume, high-value products. What we're doing, as we've mentioned over the last 18 months is we're investing more of our receivables into research and development to expand the penetration of those products. So you'll know that we've been partnering with Boston University on a number of research projects looking at the impact of one of the Vitamin D analogues on COVID and on obesity, patients who have gastric bypass. We're expanding those trials, and we've just signed up in the last just before Christmas, to also study the effect of calcifediol on multiple sclerosis patients. There is a lot of evidence that says that there are significant benefits to a much heavily boosted immune system for MS sufferers, and we're performing a series of clinical trials with an independent organization, enabling us to study that. So the idea behind it is that we continue to maintain the business and drive it forward from an incremental perspective. But these products have opportunities way beyond the ones we're currently exploiting. So that's the area of growth for us. And those projects are moving forward. Of course, clinical trials take time. The patents have been filed. We're still waiting for response back from the patent office. But at the moment, everything looks good. So we'll be able to lock in some IP on some of these indications as well, which is rather exciting. As it relates to the other products, they're not really what I would call franchises in themselves. Maybe what we've had is a bit of confusion, one of the areas we're looking at is disinfectants. It's a traditional business. In fact, where Mr. Vyas senior actually started Dishman way back 40 years ago. Similar to what we've been doing with the analogues, we're looking at the efficacy of some of the disinfectants that we have and we've embarked on a research project based on some R&D work that our colleagues in India have done on encapsulating certain disinfectants. And we're looking at a study in ways of being able to encapsulate disinfectant for bacteria with a microbial -- with viral agents. That means that we are heading towards a super disinfectant that can deal both with viruses and with bacteria. And that's something that we have embarked upon with the University of Lausanne as a partner in working on this. So what we're doing with those businesses is we're bringing them back to their normalcy -- and then we're looking at what other benefits, what other areas of opportunity exist for these businesses? And then we're going out and pursuing ones. So we see quite a bit of potential growth in those businesses where, maybe in the past, the view was that they were stable businesses and they were just good baseload. We actually believe that there's opportunity there to significantly increase the headroom for the business. And being a product business, of course, the margins can be quite interesting. So we're on the trajectory we've set internally for these projects, but it's all about looking at those products and doing work ourselves to bring new indications and new areas of interest for these products so that we can increase the attractiveness of the business there.

On the products that are in the pipeline and in validation, how many of the products have been approved or in a quarter or in the last 12 months and -- which are going commercial. And last time, if I recollect correctly, I think there are 10 in the validation stage. Now of that, what is the progress and can give some color on that? .

I'll do my best because it's not in our control in terms of the endpoint and where the customers file. But I think I've been fairly consistent in saying a good performance for us over -- blended over many years will be somewhere between 2 and 3 commercializations a year. That would be good performance. Well, we're at 4 this year already. We had another one approved by the Japanese authorities on the 20th of January. It's a product we've been working on for a very long time, but it's just been approved in Japan and it's now commercial a product. So I think it's fair to say that my estimation of somewhere between 2 or 3 a year, blended over the last 5 or 6 years, it seems to be that the acceleration is there. I would anticipate no more before the end of this year. But that puts us at 4, which is a good 20% above what we've estimated. And I think I'd be bullish enough knowing about the pipeline at the moment that we'd certainly be in line for another 3 next year. And I may be proved wrong, and it may be more. I hope I am proved wrong. But unfortunately, I'm not in control of it. We, as an organization, are not in control. But the pipeline is strong enough. I mean, if you look at what's in validation, we've got 10 or 11 in validation, some drop off. One drops off last month and the customers pulled the plug on the product. It's a small customer, it's a small medication, and that can still happen. But we've got enough in the pipeline that somewhere between 10 and 11 in the pipeline is remarkable in validation. There's a huge amount of work and it's a remarkable performance. And I would anticipate that being a standard as products go commercial than those other products in the pipeline, We've got 18 plus in late Phase III in validation. So the pipelines are remarkably strong. Stronger than I've ever seen it, frankly speaking.

Yes. My last question is, Mark, on the expansion in Switzerland on the EDC side and the injectable expansion in France. Are you on track? And if you can elaborate on to that.

I'd be delighted to. So France is the biggest investment at the moment that we're currently right in the middle of. The building is complete, the shell and the main infrastructure has been installed. We're now going into the most challenging part of the project, which is the installation of all of the specialized equipment. We are on track -- as Harshil said, we are on track for starting production at the end of January in 2023, that was always our target. And remarkably, we're still on track even with COVID and some of the other challenges with microchips and things like that. We are still on track to complete and be ready to start. And in fact, there's a huge amount of marketing effort now going into marketing that facility. So we're talking to a lot of customers. We've got 3 dedicated salespeople now in the market pushing this new venture of ours, and we're seeing a lot of interest in the market. So I'm entirely comfortable with our trajectory on that project. And I think at the next -- what we'll do, I'll ask Harshil at the next presentation to put some photographs in the investor presentation so you can see what we're up to there. I think that will be nice for you guys to see. The other investments are moving forward. So the ADC one, the joint investment with a very important client of ours, is on target. We -- the building is complete in Switzerland and the equipment is now being installed. We are hoping that, that will be online around about September, October of this year, ready to start ramping up the production of that material for that customer. So at the moment, things are on track. It's difficult with COVID, I have to say. That's the one variable I can't control. And we have seen some challenges. We've mostly been able to mitigate those. But I can't control microchip supply out of South Korea and China. But so far, we're on track.

The next question is from with [Ritvik from One-up Financial Consultants Private Limited].

I have 2 questions. Firstly, on the employee cost. So our employee cost has risen from sub INR 200 crores 7, 8 quarters ago to about INR 255 crores in this quarter. So where does this stabilize before we start seeing some revenue on the investment that you are doing on the employee side in the last 8 quarters?

Sure. Thanks, [Ritvik], for your question. So if you compare with the employment cost in this quarter versus what we had about 8 quarters back, there are 2 factors which have resulted in the increase. One is obviously additional employees that we have to recruit for the new projects as well as for the projects under validation. And as Mark mentioned, we have about 10 to 11 under validation and close to about 18 in late Phase III. So that is one of the driving factors. Second is also the forex impact. So as you can see, most of our employee cost is coming out of the Swiss entity, and all the reported numbers are in Indian rupees. So from about 8 quarters back to now, the Swiss franc would have depreciated by almost 12% to 15%. So that is also having a negative impact on the reported numbers in Indian rupees in the P&L that we report here. As far as translation into revenue is concerned, we expect that minimum of 3 molecules to go commercial each financial year and that should incrementally keep on adding revenue over the next 2 to 3 years' time. Also, one of the important things to understand is that we don't start generating revenue immediately after we recruit these people, the scientists, because there is at least 6 to 8 months of training efforts that we need to put in, in order to make sure that the scientists are able to work according to the optimal efficiency that we would expect out of them. So I would say from the next year onwards, we should see incremental revenues coming from -- on the development side as well as on the new molecules, which have gone commercial over the last 12 to 24 months. Mark, do you want to add something to it?

No, I think we've explained it pretty well. I think there are 2 factors. One is the labor cost in the West is increasing. Labor cost in China is increasing as well, by the way, which represents a fantastic opportunity for India if we can keep labor costs under control in India, but that's a separate discussion. I think labor costs in France, we are rapidly reaching the conclusion of the investment there. Now our French operation up until a year ago was 20, 23 people. The French operation with this increase in capacity, with this new investment, is going to take our French staff to about 65 people. And those people need to be hired and they need to be hired ahead of the facility being ready to go. Not all of them, but some of them. So engineers, the plant manager has been hired. We've restructured the business there now to recognize the fact it's no longer a small development unit, but it's going to be a commercial manufacturing unit. So we're hiring people there that aren't generating revenue at the moment, but are making sure that the facility will be ready to generate revenue. On the other side, as Harshil said, that as the pipeline grows, we need more hands on deck to process the commitments that we've taken in purchase orders. And that 115 million represents, to be very clear, represents purchase orders received but not yet started. Now if you compare that to 3 years ago when we were sitting there saying happily our order book would be about 80 million, you can see there's been a significant ramp-up in our ability to capture work and good value work. And we're always very careful with staff, so we always run the staff right on the edge. And every so often, we have to add more staff. And then what we have to do after a while is to add more capacity, physical, and then we have to add more staff. So we tend to do it in incremental pieces rather than doing it all upfront and carrying that cost. It's just the way we operate. So I hope that with Harshil's answer gives you a picture.

Yes, yes. So would it be fair to assume that employee cost should around current levels? Or assuming the Swiss franc stays around these levels, and employee cost will stabilize around [indiscernible]?

I would say so, yes, I think we should stabilize at more or less around 250, 260. I mean until the time we keep on getting new and new orders and the order book goes from where we are right now, and so with the molecule in Q3.

So it is kind of an indicator to the potential revenues that will come in?

Absolutely. Absolutely.

And so second question is on the increase in revenues from the CRAMS Switzerland, France and China segment. So would there be anything specific -- order specific -- one order specific that would have driven this? Or this is across all the 3 geographies and this kind of number can be sustained going forward?

Yes. I think China has been something that we've been pushing very hard. And as Harshil said, it is now positive and contributing rather than being a drag on our on our COGS. We have 3 particular projects there where we have customers who are now committed to manufacture larger scale products and intermediates in China. And that will, this year, really show a nice uptick for China. And that's effort around convincing customers that Switzerland is not the best place to do some of the larger volume work. And our China operation is more than fit for purpose. France is just as we've increased our capability, we've increased our penetration in the market and attractiveness. Switzerland is a long-established business. As you will know, it's 35 years old, 40 years old. What we're seeing is that we have become more effective in the market in selling. I think we've become a bit more efficient. So we're more competitive and we still have some way to go on that, of course. And that's one of the initiatives for next year. But also, the market is just very, very strong at the moment. Health care generally is in the public eye since COVID in no small way. And I think that's stimulated the money markets, especially in the areas in the U.S., small biotechs have been stimulated. There are a lot of investment going into small biotechs, southern Germany and the U.S. And we're seeing the outcome of that, which is more projects, more customers active, the number of pharmaceutical companies is growing. And as a result of that, there's a need for good contract manufacturers, and Dishman Carbogen Amcis is pretty good, frankly speaking.

Sure. Sure. Okay. And my last question is on Bavla. So last 2 quarters, we are stable at around INR 40 crores on a quarterly basis. So do we expect quarterly improvement from Q4 onwards? Or as you mentioned in the opening remarks that Q1 will stabilize and then we will ramp up, so what is the direction towards pre-EDQM issue run rate? And last couple of quarters, we've been saying that we should see quarter-on-quarter growth, but this quarter, it's been flattish. So anything specific to look into, if you can just throw some color on that?

Yes. So [Ritvik], we do expect that starting from Q4, we should see a quarterly increase in the revenue on the CRAMS India segment. We had -- I mean, we were expecting one of the shipments for one specific order to go out in December. However, that's going out in February. So there was a delay in servicing that particular order on account of certain engineering modifications that we were undertaking in Bavla. But yes, I mean we already have orders in hand worth about $30 million, and we should see a good amount of growth starting from Q4.

Okay. And all the customers which were with us before the issue have approved of the site, right? .

Yes. So we do have orders from almost all of those customers except for one of them, where it's more of a discussion on the commercial side. But apart from that, yes, most of the customers, either they have done a remote audit or they have been satisfied based upon the detailed risk analysis which was supplied. So from that perspective, we do have the orders from them. Having said that, we are still in the process of implementing the corrective action plan that we had given to EDQM. And as Mark mentioned in the opening remarks, we are about 80%, 85% there. So the plan is that in the next, I would say, 6 months' time or so, we expect the EDQM to maybe do a reinspection or -- I mean, physical or remotely, and then we should get a clearance from them. So that's our internal expectation.

The next question is from [Nilam Panjabi with Perpetuity Ventures].

My question pertains an to Dydrogesterone molecule. So the market for this formulation in India is growing at a very healthy pace of 40%. And the branded generic players who are entering this formulation mentioned in their earnings call that there are 2 -- there are only 2 API manufacturers in India. And when I looked it up, I saw that Dishman is one of them. So I just wanted to know 2 things here. a, are we manufacturing the API end to end? Or are we manufacturing only the intermediate? And b), given it is complex to manufacture this API, are we seeing any major opportunity there as the formulation market is moving at a very healthy pace?

I think we are registered as a manufacturer of digestive dydrogesterone. We are looking at it internally. But we're not looking at it for the Indian market, we're looking at it for the European and U.S. market.

So right now, we were manufacturing the intermediate and not the final API for one of the customers. So we are evaluating whether we keep on manufacturing that and minus one or whatever it is, or we manufacture the final API. So that is something under consideration right now.

The next question is from the line of [Naman Jain] an investor.

First of all, many congratulations on good set of numbers. Good to see the company back in green. Just a couple of things from my end. First is taking the Bavla discussion forward. So the last time we had a call, you mentioned that out of 13 units, 8 are up and running. Just wanted to get an update what is the status now are, because we were expecting Q3 everything to be up and running?

So [Naman] on -- so first of all, thank you for your compliment. Coming to your specific question. So out of the 13 units, yes, about 8 units are running right now. What we are evaluating is that 2 or 3 of the units which were manufacturing the non-GMP products because those were the units for which we actually received the observation. We might not restart them in the near future. We might revamp them and convert them into GMP units. And what we have done over the last 1.5 or 2 years is evaluated the products that we were manufacturing out of Bavla, which were non-GMP. And this is the cost benefit analysis, we might not even continue some of those products. So right now, we believe that the units which are -- which we have started in Bavla, those units should be sufficient to supply the molecules and to supply the orders that we have on hand. We are trying to do a lot of process efficiencies. We are trying to shift some of the key starting materials, manufacturing to our other facilities, which is in Naroda. A lot of things are going on, phases which -- within the existing age units which are running right now, we are trying to improve the efficiency and better to the customers' requirements. So that is the status right now. And the unit should be able to ramp up the production and meet the customers' requirements.

Okay. And I'm sorry, I missed the opening remarks in the call. Excuse me for that. But just wanted to check on the U.K. and India clients business, there's a huge drop in EBITDA margin. So we were good at France and Switzerland. But could you just highlight on that as well?

So if you see our U.K. business, that's more like -- that's supplying the key starting materials, the intermediates and some specific products to our customers, as well as to the Swiss entity. So I think the right way to look at that particular business will be more so on a yearly basis in terms of the margins. So if you see the 9 months, our EBITDA margin is close to about 18%, and that's more or less in line with what we had last year. So we don't -- I mean, it just depends like which products were actually supplied in this quarter versus the previous quarters or what's supposed to be supplied in the next quarter. But more or less on a yearly basis, we believe that the margin should be similar to what we had last year. As far as India is concerned, as compared to last year, where we were incurring losses because of lower revenues, because of fixed costs hitting us, because of the EDQM issues that we had. So as you can see, the margins are now in the positive range in the last 2 quarters, and that's largely on account of the increase in the CRAMS revenue that we have reported in the last 2 quarters. So going forward, as the revenue of CRAMS coming from India keeps on increasing, we would see these margins increasing as well.

I think just to add to what Harshil has said, you've also got to think about these businesses, they are interconnected. So a quantity of what comes out of Bavla in India goes directly to Switzerland for further process. 80% of the output of Manchester is actually to support early stages in product manufacturer for Switzerland. So they kind of are integrated. In some way, shape or form they are connected. They're not stand-alone.

Okay. Okay. Yes. And just on a consol level, in maybe a couple of years from now, what EBITDA margins are we looking at? Because I think we are at about 20% right now, we've reached 20%. Top line is similar to, I think, we'll clock pre-COVID maybe this year as well. But on a margin basis, consol level, what blended margins can we look at?

So we expect that -- if you take a 3- to 5-year view, we should be closer to 30% at an EBITDA level. .

Okay. Okay. And just one final point from my end. There was this promoter company loan that was outstanding, which was -- promoter had sold off their shares and repaid some part of it. Any updated status on that? Is that closed or is there some outstanding or and when it is to be cleared?

Yes. So we had already -- I mean, there was already a repayment done of about INR 72-odd crores. So now the outstanding -- I mean, I'll have to get the exact figure, but I think it's close to about INR 50 crores to INR 60 crores. So that should happen, I would say, in the next 12 months or so. We don't plan to do and work as for that. .

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from [Ritvik with One-up Financial Consultants Private Limited].

So just taking a 3- to 5-year view with France and Switzerland, we're looking to expand capacity in the next 12 months. So with the base of Bavla ramping up and existing facilities and the expansion at France and Switzerland, so what could be the potential peak utilization for the company like in terms of turnover, if you can throw some light?

So [Ritvik], again, taking a 3- to 5-year view, we can expect a compounded annual growth rate of about 15%, anywhere between 15% to 18%.

Okay. Okay. From FY '20 base of about INR 2,000-odd crores revenue?

That's correct. That's correct. That's right.

[Operator Instructions].

If there are no more questions, we can close the call, Harshil?

Yes. That should be okay.

As there are no further questions, I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.

Okay. So first of all, from my perspective, thank you very much. This team is working hard to continue to meet our commitments, both to our customers and to our investors and promoters. We'll continue to work very hard to generate the promises that we're making and the commitments that we've taken on. So thanks for your support. Thank you for your questions, and we look forward to speaking to you at the year-end call. Over to you, Harshil.

Thank you very much, everybody. Thanks for joining in the call. And we look forward to your continued support. And we also look forward to talking to you sometime in April or May. Thank you very much. .

Thank you.

Thank you. On behalf of Dishman Carbogen Amcis Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.