DOF Group ASA (DOFG) Q4 FY2025 Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, everyone, and a warm welcome to this Q4 2025 results presentation by DOF. We released our report and presentation earlier this morning. And in this session, we will cover operational and financial highlights before rounding off with a Q&A session. You can already now post your questions in the webcast Q&A function, as I see some of you have already done. So that's good. Keep them coming, and we will cover as many as we can towards the end. And with that, I leave the word to you, Mons, on this nice front page of some freshly painted and upgraded vessels.

Thank you, Eirik. And once again, welcome to the quarter 4 presentation for DOF. So as Eirik say, this is a picture of the Skandi Lifter and Skandi Logger that has been at the yard in Denmark in November and December. And now, a few days ago, they arrived in Rio. So now they will mobilize and start accepting test for the 4-year contract with Petrobras. And also as seen after we sent out numbers this morning, some discussion among analysts on CapEx for '26. And part of the reason why CapEx is a bit higher in '26 is because we have a rollover from these boats into '26 from '25. So you see that '25 is well below what we have guided, and then '26 is a bit higher due to, amongst other things, these rollovers. So we'll come back more to the CapEx on those. But the good is, of course, that these boats soon will be making very good money on the 4-year charters. So then DOF at a glance. I guess, around 74 boats. We have -- backlog end of quarter 4 was $5.1 billion. I guess we are around $5.2 billion now. And still a very high backlog. And of course, 2025 has been a fantastic year when it comes to winning work and growing the backlog. So of course, the backlog for '26, but also '27 and '28 are at record high levels, you could say. On the numbers, we finished the year with a bit higher than $2 billion revenue. And then I guess what makes me really proud is that we delivered a very, very strong quarter 4 and ending then at $796 million in EBITDA. Adjusting for some small sales gain, we have $781 million in operational EBITDA in 2025. So I think that is -- I'm very proud of that. And the quarter 4 was very strong, yes. We did $220 million, including $4 million in gain on the sale in fourth quarter, which is very good. So leave that slide on that. And this is then what we do. We are an offshore service provider. We own vessels and we operate the vessels. And we, of course, have a large subsea business, a global business all over the globe. And then we over -- and product is -- it's integrated services within IMR and mooring and construction and SURF and -- yes. Most of the service you can execute from a vessel offshore. We have a fair market value on the fleet of $4.1 billion. And we also see that we own 80 ROVs and AUVs. And of course, interesting to know is that with -- if you buy a new ROV these days, we are talking around $5 million at least, yes, and then you have to install and then you have to have a launch system. So it's pretty high value on that ROV fleet as well. If you look at the numbers split, we have $635 million on the assets, and then you see we have $146 million on the projects or the services or the subsea side of the business. So it is a record high year also on the Subsea side. And of course, that is the people. There is no depreciation. There is no interest cost to be paid on that EBITDA. So it's -- and of course, you can only reflect the value of that organization. Of course, we noticed that listed companies with old assets, they are priced at higher multiples than priced on an average. So -- and then you see combined operational EBITDA, $781 million. So I guess a big jump from '24. And we will get back to that. But well above the latest guidance we had in November, but in the higher range of what we guided at the start of the year in February. So all in all, very satisfied with the performance in all the regions and on all projects. So it's been a good year globally for us. So here it is. So quarter 4, $220 million, sales gain of $4 million, meaning $216 million from the operations. DOF Denmark -- this is the last time we talk about DOF Denmark. It's now integrated, and from now on, it will be reported together with the rest of the fleet. But they delivered -- we delivered $55 million, which is pretty good. And Martin will talk a bit more how DOF Denmark delivered for the full year. Fleet utilization could still be higher, 87%. So there is a bit more to get out of it. And as we mentioned, the backlog is $5.2 billion. And then we -- for 2026, we guide $830 million to $880 million. And of course, then you have to keep in mind that we have, I would say, close to or around 80% of the revenue -- midpoint of revenue already in the backlog for 2026. So it's not very high risk on the numbers. Where we see with a -- the uptick, of course, is partly, of course, due to already signed contracts with -- on renewals on the boats. Of course, that's the main reason. But I guess what we haven't taken too much into consideration, of course, is that what has happened in quarter 4 and now into quarter 1 and where we see fixing levels on projects through the season is that the anchor handling -- the market for anchor handlers has really tightened. It looks extremely strong. So of course, we do believe that there might be good upside in these numbers due to a very strong anchor handling market. And we believe that, that market will last quite long. It's a very nice balance in the market. The demand side is picking up, not only in the North Sea, but we see -- we now see requirements for big boats more or less globally. We are seeing it in Angola. We see it in Guyana. We see it actually in India as well. We see it in the Black Sea, and we see it in a lot of other places. So I think now -- yes, of course, that is the part of the offshore of our market that has been lagging. And now I see the first signs, the signs that this is now coming again. And then -- so I -- and as you understand, I'm pretty bullish on that going forward. On the net interest-bearing debt to EBITDA, we are at 1.7. So in the middle of the range. And then we propose $0.35 in dividend for the quarter. And if you look at the graphs, comparing to last year quarter 4, you see $577 million in revenue compared to $445 million, and then $220 million compared to $152 million. So it's a good growth. And of course, a lot of it due to DOF Denmark, but the rest of the legacy -- DOF also performing much better in this year than last year. So leave it like that. And then I don't go through all of this, but as you see, quite a lot of new long-term contracts, Brazil -- the RSVs in Brazil, 4-year contracts; the new modern Constructor are extended in Guyana. The pipeline -- that's 3 of them extended with a year before they start a new contract. The same with the anchor handlers in Brazil. So meaning that those anchor handlers now have backlog into 2031. So it's also -- the backlog is getting longer and longer. Worth also mentioning, I think -- and of course, this is a bit special. We sent a press release on a contract less than $15 million. But that's for most of you to be aware of how strong the market is. So it's roughly a 30-day job, and we expect plus/minus $6 million in EBITDA on that charter in those 30 days. So it's just showing the strength in the market for the really high-end anchor handlers we are seeing right now. And there are more to come on that -- in that space. So I'll leave it like that. Also what makes me very happy, of course, was the one with the green boat here, Havila Phoenix. We won the 3-year IMR contract with BP in U.K. And of course, that is the second largest IMR contract in the North Sea after the Equinor IMR contract. So very, very happy with that. And of course, that is a very strategic important win for us. And we, of course, expect that to grow in scope, to do more scope for BP going forward. So we leave that like that, I think. And perhaps one more on that, which is the last one, the -- we also, of course -- we mentioned that we renewed Skandi Patagonia in Argentina, which the boat is built in 2000. It's 25 years old. And now renewed, which I believe will be 5 years. So meaning also that these boats can work for a very long time. And I will not be surprised if it will continue after 2030 on that contract in Argentina. So then we move on. And here is the backlog. So by now, we have $5.2 billion in the book, which is a record high. And looking at -- so order intake in quarter 4, $1 billion. So book-to-bill close to 2. And then we see we have roughly $1.7 billion for 2026, which is then 77% of the midpoint of the revenue guiding. And also then if you see the small one up in the corner, you see the status a year ago. So of course, you see that the year 1 -- you see year 1 and year 2 is much higher now than it was a year ago. So if you compare '26 last year with '27 this year, of course, you see we have more than $400 million more in the book. And if you compare '27 with '28, you see we have more than $500 million. So of course, it's a big growth in backlog. Of course, the backlog now is more well paid than the old backlog due to higher rates and margins in the contracts. And of course, it gives a fantastic foundation for the earnings, not only in '26, but also in '27 and '28. Meaning that, of course, that the earnings will stay strong for long and that the dividends will stay strong for long as well. So very happy. Perhaps the order intake was remarkable in '25. But of course, we're still working on quite a few long-term opportunities, and we expect, of course, to continue to build that backlog going forward. We have -- we'll mention a few opportunities we have later on. So here is -- yes, here just -- we are talking all about numbers and the backlog and all that. But of course, this is what we are doing. So we did a very -- the largest project ever in our history. We did in West Africa in quarter 4 and into quarter 1. We have finalized it now. And a very complex project, a big project. And we had -- as you see, we had 6 vessels on the project. And I think we had more than 600 people involved in the project, onshore and offshore. So it was a big, big job for us. And I'm very happy to say that client was extremely happy. We finalized the project a couple of weeks in advance of schedule. So they got their first production earlier. And we, of course, finalizing it earlier. Meaning that we didn't use our contingency. And so the margin, of course, also on the project got better than what we had in the calculation when we bid it. So all in all -- it's important for you also to understand that we were able to execute big projects on time and better than budget without any injuries at all. So very happy with that. And I guess this is what we need to be best-in-class in. Yes. And I don't know if this slide is -- should have been here or not, but I read sometimes that the analysts talk about net asset value in DOF. And of course, that's fair enough. But of course, what they tend to forget then is that DOF are not a shipowner. We are a service company with 85% to 90% of our revenue from services, from projects. And of course, the value of that organization is extremely high. And as you saw from the previous slide, in '25, we had $146 million in EBITDA outside what we made on the boats. And of course, remember, that quite a decent portion of those $146 million come from projects where we use third-party boats. We have -- so of course, we -- the organization could have done that without any boats in the DOF fleet. So of course, if you add the multiple of that, you have to include that when you make the value on DOF. So I'm not saying what kind of multiple you should put on that. But of course, I see that the similar companies are priced between 6 and 10x EBITDA. And then, of course, you also have the value on the subsea asset. And I've just mentioned that there is -- to buy a new ROV and install it, you are at least talking $4 million only to buy an ROV, and then you have to install it. So there is high values on that as well. But I'll leave it to you to do the mathematics yourself. I'm just mentioning it that next time you talk about [ NAV and DOF, you don't have to forget the organization and the subsea assets. So then it is Mr. Martin who will do the financial highlights. And I guess, Martin, today, we have a bit of highlights. It's the best year ever. And I guess, 4 quarter is perhaps the best quarter ever as well.

Yes. Thank you, Mons. You are right, the second quarter was the best quarter ever before this one. So it is certainly highlights -- some highlights to 2025. You see from the illustration that it is on an equal to equal basis, uplift of $20 million from Q4 of '24. And of course, it is a materially better contribution from the DOF Denmark fleet. It is the -- the largest, call it, positive variations across the group is certainly from the subsea space, the project space and Norskan. The subsea projects are, let's say, lumpy in its nature. So the percentage of completion and the completion tend to affect the numbers in the quarters. So that's why we are a bit -- yes, some quarters are extremely good, like this one, and some are less so. Although still very strong results. And of course, as Mons has alluded to a couple of times already, $146 million from the subsea space is a really good contributor. On the next one, you see that the story continues in terms of leverage. This is, of course, core to the strategy. We have said that we have a target of staying between 1.5 and 2. We are comfortably within that range. It is, yes, not materially new debt during the quarter, but we have extended a couple of charters affecting the debt. So the Havila Phoenix has been extended, the Stril Explorer has been extended. So the lease proceeds are affecting the numbers. But no major events, no new big loans or anything like that. But on the next slide, we see that we've had -- and this is something we have touched on before. We have said that the profile on the bank debt has been, call it, a bit steeper than we would have liked. Of course, that is linked to the strategy of having a stable leverage level between 1.5 and 2. So we're very happy that we managed to reach an agreement with the creditors of the larger facility to reduce the amortization with -- 40% from what it is today. So it's giving us a little improved cash flow on a stand-alone basis of $58 million or close to $60 million per year. And of course, that avoids doing more expensive debt. So it's a good alternative in that sense. And it's also, of course, contributing positively to the outlook on dividends. On Denmark, of course, if you go 1 -- a bit more than 1 year back, we had a separate session after we closed the transaction of Maersk Supply Services to guide especially on that fleet. We said that we were comfortable saying that the fleet would do between $150 million and $200 million in 2024. In the first quarter, we had the termination of Skandi Implementer in Mexico, and we have also taken out a couple of vessels through the year from operations to mobilize them for new contracts. Despite that, the fleet is doing $181 million for '25, including gain on sales through the second half of $15 million. But I think it's fair to say that the last couple of quarters here is a proof that this fleet is doing what we said it was going to do. And it is also very close to what we assumed in the transaction when it was done, proving it is the deal we planned it to be. And of course, this is even without any additional subsea earnings on top of that fleet. And of course, they served us a very good basis and platform to do subsea services. Let's say, the fleet is starting to become red and the lines between the -- of Denmark fleet and the legacy DOF fleet is vanishing and fading. So this is last time around we will provide any separate numbers on that fleet. That was just to make sure we did a transparent communication in the results of that acquisition. And I feel that we have done that now and proven the earnings capacity. Yes, this is a more detailed and comprehensive overview on cash flow. And there is just one particular subject that I will enlighten a bit more on, that is the CapEx and the proceeds from borrowing. There is a small principal change in the numbers. So there is a one-off effect that is in Q4, but it is for the full year, where the lease payments or the leased ROVs were previously shown net of proceeds from borrowing, but they are now gross on CapEx and proceeds from borrowings. So $36 million out of the $106 million is, call it, the catch-up effect on grossing up payment on ROVs. And leases are similar in the proceeds from borrowing, that is $19 million from the newbuild and $36 million from ROVs for the full year. And this is now in the same manner as we do it on the guiding. So this is aligned with what we guide on with regards to CapEx. So it's more one to one shown like this. And of course, highlight -- we talk about highlights. It's a highlight for the year, but certainly so for Q4, is the operating cash flow. Very strong, higher than the EBITDA, with positive changes in working capital. And other than that, it is business as usual with the normal amortization, lease payments and the dividend that we gave in, yes, last quarter. Talking about dividend, the dividend announced today is the same as it was previous quarter, $0.35 per share. So a total number of $86 million, bringing us to a total of $320 million in shareholder dividends for the last 4 quarters. And with that, I think it's back to Mons.

Thank you, Martin. So that is just a summary of the '25, the guiding compared to the final result. And of course, we see -- we guided [ $1.85 ] billion in revenue and we ended at $2 billion. And then on the EBITDA, we started the year with $720 million to $800 million. We narrowed it to $750 million to $760 million in November. And then we ended at $781 million. So if you compare to the earlier guiding, we deliver in the higher range on that. And of course, the mid -- we guided from November. We -- I don't know what happened in November, but we might been a bit pessimistic then. We, of course -- we were $21 million over the high end of that guiding. So very happy with what [indiscernible]. Depreciation is more or less in line, a bit lower than where we started. And then interest cost in the middle. And tax payable, compared to what we guided at the start, we are roughly $10 million below. On CapEx -- and here, you have to be -- follow me. We started with $130 million, $140 million in maintenance CapEx and ended the year in $123 million. So we have kind of $15 million in the back that will be -- and of course, this is timing effects on when we do the maintenance. So we have -- some of this will happen in '26 instead of '25. And then on growth CapEx, we guided $80 million to $90 million, and then we have used $75 million. And as I mentioned, there is roughly $15 million on that growth that comes from the two, Lifter and Logger, that we have to do -- finalize, no pay, no win, quarter 1 instead of quarter 4. So we have roughly $10 million, $15 million for them as well. So meaning that with roughly $30 million, $15 million on the growth and $15 million on the maintenance, that is in the '26 guidance that we'll come to comes from '25. So we are lower in '25 and a bit higher in '26. So I think that is the final one we have on 2025. And once again, we have to say we are very happy with how that moved on the backlog on the numbers and on the execution. And not the least, I have -- before I forget that also the client feedback we have had has been excellent. So I think the clients want us back to do more work based on the feedback we get from them around the globe. So then we go on the guiding for '26. So we guide revenue midpoint $2.2 billion. And as mentioned on that, we have 77% of that guidance in the backlog already then. And then we guide $830 million to $880 million on the EBITDA. I would say it carries a bit less risk than it was last year because the backlog is a bit higher here. And depreciation, $270 million to $280 million. And then net interest, $90 million. So it's a bit lower than last year. And then tax payable, $80 million to $85 million. Remember that we were a bit higher when we got the tax payable last year, so we had to take that on. I'm not saying that will happen in '26. But that's what we are -- where we are now. And of course, we are working on optimizing that. On the CapEx side, as I've said, we have maintenance CapEx $140 million to $150 million. But then remember that $15 million of that comes from -- where we were lower in 2025. So it's just sliding between the 2 years. And the same on growth CapEx. It is the 2 other classes that lift that with $15 million that we didn't spend in the fourth quarter '25. And perhaps mentioning on the growth CapEx. It is, of course, some more ROVs. We still have a few boats we want to have our own ROVs on. And of course, that will give a quick payback and higher earnings. So the ROVs makes good money for us. And then we have ordered a crane, a big crane that we are to install on one of the anchor handlers. And of course, we see that these big anchor handlers with big winches, big drums and so on, they make a lot of money if you combine the vessel earnings and the project earnings. And that's why we have invested in cranes. So roughly $40 million that will cost. But I think that will pay off very quickly. And then we order one new AUV. Of course, we won a 4-year contract with Petrobras in the fourth quarter for a boat with an AUV, and we therefore want to order a new AUV. So that is the main explanation on the CapEx side. So then I guess there is one slide left. So full year guidance, operational, $830 million to $880 million. Long-term backlog increased a lot through 2025. So T plus 2 backlog up 137% compared to the same time in '25. And then 84% of vessel days on owned and chartered-in fleet covered by firm backlog for 2026. So then we have a few pictures. The picture on the left-hand side is a picture of a big anchor handler. I think it's the Skandi Skansen. As I mentioned, that market is -- has been very hot, quarter 4, in -- so far in quarter 1, and activity on the projects around the globe. And the pricing on those projects is quite good at the moment. And as I mentioned, a 30-day job for Skansen probably will give plus/minus $6 million in EBITDA. So I'm not saying we're going to annualize that, but I think it shows where that market is heading. So we are -- so we believe that if that market now goes as we believe, that can give a further upside on the DOF earnings in the years to come then. Then I talked about building backlog. And of course, for those of you following closely, you saw that Petrobras are out now a tender for pipe layers. And as you probably know, we have 3 pipe layers coming off contract in '26 and in '27. So of course, we are soon bidding that. And of course, if we are clever and lucky on that, of course, that will build backlog a lot for DOF, not only in '27, but in '28, '29, '30 and '31. So it's a very important tender for us, and we will keep you updated on that. Then we have a picture of a project. And as I mentioned, execution of project is key to success. And in 2025, our experts around the globe have executed most projects in an excellent way, not only giving us good financial results, but also giving us very good client satisfaction. Meaning that the business acquisition job going forward will be easier because the clients want us back. And then we have an I-class. I-class is here because we have used part of 2025 to -- let's say, to get them into the DOF model. We have installed subsea equipment on them, and we expect, let's say, the spread earnings, including the subsea side on those boats, to pick up in '26 compared to '24. So then I think we leave it like that, and then we welcome any questions.

Yes, indeed. So please feel free to post your questions in the webcast Q&A function. We'll kick right off with the ones that we have received. As you say, Mons, the anchor handling market has been very strong recently, and you have perhaps wisely previously been less exposed to the spot market. How do you still see opportunities to capture the upside of this market for your boat?

Of course, we have kept most of the fleet this year also in fourth quarter on projects on long-term contracts than on -- and of course -- so we haven't had any -- I think we have had one vessel in the spot market in the last few months. So we fully haven't put any big part of that upside. But what we're probably going to do now, of course, is that we have a couple of boats coming off contracts, project contracts now, and probably going to be a bit more, let's say, short term on those. So more spot and more short-term projects. So not -- and -- but of course, longer term, of course, if this market stays as it is, this will also then heavily influence the long-term rates you get for these high-end anchor handlers globally. So if it goes according to what I -- I hope and believe is that you will see not only uplift in earnings on spot and shorter jobs, but you also will gradually see an uplift in long-term rates globally for the really big anchor handlers. And when we look at the prospect list for what we call mooring projects globally, it's very high. We see already now in 2027 that there are several projects happening at the same time. So we see this year conflicts on the schedule if you are able to do -- should do all of them. So it looks good. And so I think you will see perhaps DOF -- in a few months from now, you will see DOF handling a few more boats, taking a bit more risk in the short market on the anchor handling side.

Next question is on Skandi Connector. The last update I saw on this was that she was firm until the end of '25. What's going on with this vessel? Is it being sold? Is the auction declared? Or is it available?

I guess it's a mix. I mean we -- she is extended now into second quarter. Thereafter, we, of course, are evaluating our options on her, and one of the option is to sell the boat. Of course, we have mentioned before that to have one cable layer is not strategically important for us. If you are to be here in the market, you need more than one boat. And we have had people inspecting the boat. So let's see what happens. But nothing is done before it's done. So we are working on selling her and we are also working on finding long charters for her. But I think if we are to choose, we will prefer selling her.

Then on -- you guide quite a bit of an uplift on tax in '26. Is this mainly due to utilization of tax losses? Or does it imply a structurally higher tax rate going forward?

Yes. Of course, we guide on payable tax. So it's not impacted by tax losses other than the fact that it is not payable in the areas where we have tax loss carryforward. But there are a number of factors impacting the number or the amount of payable tax. One is, of course, if you make more money, you generally pay a bit more tax, and taxes are very often payable in arrears. So a good '25 impacts the tax levels payable in '26. And also the operational area affects it. We consider withholding tax in areas like Guyana, Angola and so on. Tax and payable tax, we pay that upfront. So that affects the numbers. And there is also this global minimum tax known as Pillar 2. Also -- we're also subject to that. Of course, we have a big normal taxated activity as well. So -- and the impact is not among the worst, but it's also impacting the numbers. So a little bit of a mix.

Then on the fleet loan amendment. When do you think the credit approvals will be finalized? And are you able to say anything about the leverage threshold that you mentioned?

Yes, I can -- I think I can say that we are free to utilize this as long as we are within our own strategy on leverage. And of course, that is 1.5 to 2. And then there is the 2 that is the important number to keep in mind. And we've said that it's going to be effective from the first payment, Q1 of this year. So within a month's time, we should have that signed and sealed. I don't see any big risks on that.

Right. Then there are a lot of questions around the topic of dividends, dividend capacity, expected dividends, dividend increase, payout level, dividend policy, et cetera. To not cover all of them, I think I will leave the question fairly open and ask if you're able to say anything about dividend going forward. And to add on to that, if you intend to introduce a fixed policy related to any indicators other than your leverage range target.

Dividend is a Board matter, and how that is going to develop going forward is up to then to decide, of course. But no changes to the policy. Leverage is still the guiding principle of that. I think -- to comment it a little bit, I think that the drivers -- the key drivers, is, of course, leverage. It is also backlog. It is earnings levels. So it is -- remains the target and ambition of the group to have that steadily increasing all the time.

Then a question on artificial intelligence. Can you comment in general on how you are implementing AI in DOF and what possibilities you see related to both cost savings and better efficiency?

Not much I will say about -- I think we follow what is going on in, call it, the core business of DOF. It's not a lot of AI impact on the business per se. But of course, we do, like everyone else, utilize systems that incorporate AI functionality to be more efficient in day-to-day tasks, office tasks and so on. I think it's a bit early for us to say how much we can gain in efficiency in our core business from it. And it's not my area of expertise either. So I will refrain from saying too much about it.

All right. Then a few questions on Brazil, starting with whether we have heard anything new on the RSV newbuilds that were being discussed.

Yes. It is a dialogue, and we are waiting for Petrobras. And more on that is difficult to say. So it is not done here and it's a live one. So let's see where it ends. I can't say more than that.

Okay. And then following up on Brazil, what is your assessment of the offshore market in Brazil in '26? And do you see any risk of potential CapEx cuts from Petrobras?

I mean, of course, if you see the DOF backlog in 2026, we are -- the DOF subsea old ROVs was renewed. We renewed more than 7 ROVs and 7 anchor handlers. So it's full backlog on all that fleet in '26. We won this new PIDF tender that we had done. So the only -- we have to renew in '26 is 2 of the 3 remaining pipe layers. We renewed almost 3 of them last year. So in that context, we see the Brazil market still to be very strong. We see no weakness. And of course, the activity level is very high. And we also see, of course, that we -- when we have available spots -- we have had -- for the winter, we have had actually one I-class in Brazil and we have had the Skandi Skansen in Brazil and picking up project work. And we continue to do that, yes. So it's -- I have no worries about the Brazil market at all.

Can you elaborate a bit on what you consider to be the future growth potential for DOF? Will it typically be contract renewals, growth in subsea projects? Or do you also consider M&A and newbuilds as potential growth avenues?

I guess we -- of course, we want to do more of the same, yes. We see, of course, contract renewals at higher rates is one growth area. We see -- we are gradually doing more and larger projects and add more services to our -- on the spreads as we -- one of the reasons why we bought Maersk Supply Service by DOF was, of course, to add the services on top. And we see, of course, that will continue to grow. On new assets, of course, we have said that we will high-grade the fleet. So we have so far sold a few smaller boats. But of course, if we are to buy new boats, of course, it has to be in the middle of our core, where we can add a lot of extra earnings on top. And of course, on newbuilds, we haven't touched that so far. And of course, we have one newbuild, which is on a 15-year contract. So you will not see DOF ordering vessels on speculation, yes. So it's -- we will be disciplined and -- but of course, if there is an M&A opportunity like we had with the Maersk Supply Service, if there is a vessel too that really fits the core of DOF and strengthens our market position, of course, then we will, of course, look at it, yes. In general, the discipline will be very strong, as we have done so far. And of course, then we still have the plan, as we discussed, to exit the cable layer market. We have a plan to exit sooner or later the PSV market. And so I guess it's, let's say, at least even likely that we will sell boats than buy boats. So -- but we will in the end -- of course, in the end, this company will be the subsea side and absolutely high on the anchor handling side and services and services and services, yes. So we will gradually, let's say, exit the commodity market of PSVs and on the lower one side. A long answer. Sorry for that.

No, that's fine. And following up a bit on newbuilds, we have a question on whether we can elaborate a bit on the newbuild situation across our vessel segment and how we're seeing that impacting the market.

I think I'll start with the situation on newbuild. Of course, it's -- of course, on the anchor handling side, there are no newbuilds, yes. And of course, the reason for that, I guess, number one is that the market has not been extremely good. And also that, of course, the newbuild price for a high-end anchor handler is probably closer to $250 million, yes. So we have got some -- we haven't quoted for it, but we have had some indications. And we're talking $250 million. And of course, the market do not defend that at all. So that means that I don't see any newbuilds on the anchor handling side in the foreseeable future. And then I'm talking of small boats. I'm talking the $300,000 boats, big boats 24-meter beam and 95 to 110 meter long. So there is no news. Then of course, on the high-end subsea side, the [indiscernible] boats, the pipeline, as you know, with the big latter was -- there are no newbuilds. And I think the picture is the same. If you were to go build a new pipeline, I believe, with the 550-tonne VLS or a 400-tonne VLS today, I think you are talking -- I don't know, but at least -- I would guess at least between $400 million and $500 million or less, to be with that. And so I don't think that will happen. And then you have the -- let's say, the medium-sized [ turnkey ] market with -- I have already showed the slide earlier on that, where we have kind of also -- 20%, 25% of value is in that space. And we start to see there is a quite high number of vessels for delivery in '27 and '28. And how that pans out remains to be seen. And towards the -- it's also, of course, the segment that DOF chartering boats. We have quite a few boats on charter on that. And so I don't know. How that will pan out for vessel rates remains to be seen. If there is a weakening in vessel rates, will that be negative enough? Not necessarily. We don't compete with the vessel owners ordering those boats. We are more a client for them. And they don't compete with us on a 3-year IMR contract with Equinor or a project, a subsea project for ENI or whatever. So I'm pretty relaxed on that. If I should be 100% owners, which my mother tells me I have to be, I would, of course, love to have a year or 2 in a weak vessel market, putting us in a position to get cheaper and cheap boats. But I don't think that will happen. I think the market is strong enough to absorb these boats, yes. But if it's not, I see myself as a charter and not as an owner, yes, because we use disposable projects and don't do time charter on those boats. A long answer...

That's good. Recognizing the cyclical nature of the market, what type of indicators do you follow to anticipate a slowdown or negative inflection in your market?

Of course, we -- of course, the big indicator is, as always, the oil price. It's the burgers for the oil companies. It's all that. It's the sale of Christmas trees going forward. It's the order backlog for the Tier 1 guys and so on and so on. But of course, I think the most important, let's say, intel, lead is what we get. And of course, remember, we have probably sales -- global sales force of several hundred people here. So where we get the intel from that we make the decisions on is, of course, the day-to-day, the week-to-week, the month-to-month dialogue with all of our clients. And it's our own prospect list. And of course, what we see from that now is that '27 and '28 -- the early indication for those years is that they look to be quite busy, yes. We see -- as I mentioned earlier, on the mooring side, we see multiple tenders now colliding on time in '27. So that's where we see it. We see the opportunities we have, the dialogue with the clients. And then we have a prospect list for the whole fleet for '27 and '28, and that looks very good. And of course, then the next follow-up question is how do you mitigate the cyclicality. And of course, that we do with the backlog. And as we have said, we will take all the backlog we can get long term, because it's not the tragedy that you have to book the backlog onto those record while it happens. So we -- so that's how we do it. We are not -- we cannot do anything with the oil price. We cannot do anything with geopolitics. But what we can do something with is our own balance sheet and our own backlog. And that is what we are focusing on. But the summary is that we see no close on the -- that will happen right now. On the contrary, we see '26 getting more busy, and we see indication on '27 and '28 that looks very good.

In H2, we saw some lumpiness in the subsea regional earnings driven by project milestones. Do you expect the same in '26? And if so, can you provide some color on how you expect the milestones to develop?

It's always like that. It depends on, of course, when the projects come to an end and then when you do the final, let's say, numbers on those and when you have final discussion with the client. So when you bid a project, you execute the project. You bid that with -- at a certain margin and you bid that with a certain contingency. And as you go along, you -- in the early days of the project, you normally book income according to cost. And then when you see -- get closer to the end, you start to take profit. And then when you finalize the project, you end up perhaps releasing the contingency and value. So it is how you do it then. It's impossible to give an answer on how that will pan out between quarter and quarter. But of course, as you have seen, I guess quarter 4 normally we have to release more of those projects' profits at the end of the year. So we might be a bit conservative through the project, but I guess that's how we like to do it.

Then CapEx. What do you see as a fair long-term maintenance CapEx level?

No, I don't know. Of course, that is -- I have that in my head. Of course, that depends on when you dry dock -- the [ pilling up of ] the boats. So I have -- we have to get back on that. So that buildup will vary a bit from year to year.

Okay. Thank you. That was the questions that we were able to cover in this session. Thank you all for sending in good questions. I know that we weren't able to cover everyone individually, but I hope that we covered some of the main topics that you wanted us to speak about. And if you have any follow-ups, please do not hesitate to reach out. So with that, I'll say thanks to Mons and Martin for a good session.

Thank you very much for listening in and have a nice evening. Thank you very much.

Thank you.