DraftKings Inc. (DKNG) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right, everybody. So we will conclude things today with our final presentation of the day. But certainly, last but not least, my pleasure to welcome Jason Park from DraftKings. Jason, welcome.

Thank you, Shaun.

First time, that we've had DraftKings on stage at this event.

Is that right?

We've hosted fireside, mostly virtual.

Virtual, yes. Yes.

So it's great to have you here. And also, we have Mike and Joe, so thanks, guys, both for making this happen. So a lot of different places we can start. We've actually -- throughout the day, we've gotten to talk to Caesars Digital, BetMGM and I'm blanking out, and of course Jay from PENN. So we've had a bit of a full suite in terms of what we're seeing out there. And we'd love to just -- let's start with the obvious, state of the market, NFL kicks off tonight, Give us a couple of tidbits. How do you feel heading into the season and how's the line up?

First of all, are you okay? Like you just went from one -- right into the next one. Do you need a breather?

I appreciate that. There's a dramatic amount of coffee waiting for me, which I will be taking down soon.

No, it's great to be here. Thank you for hosting us. And I'd say like we're totally jacked. Obviously, today is the first day of the NFL season. We are feeling totally fired up about the state of our product, first and foremost. Hopefully, most of you have gotten the refreshed app and are seeing all the additional feature functionality, easier to build parlays, see the progress of each leg of your parlay directly in the bet slip. What else, like, dynamic odds. So the spread is 4.5 points, but you want to buy it for 10 points, you want to buy it for 20 points, boom, it's just dynamic, you can bid the slider functionality. Those are just a few of the things and if you're at U.S. open, hopefully, you guys have used the flash bet functionality for point-by-point tennis. That is completely differentiated in the market. So we're feeling great on the product side, I think to the extent that 2021 was the year of migrating to our own bet engine, 2022 was the year of catching up and getting to parity with FanDuel. 2023 is the year of getting out ahead of FanDuel and creating some distance, and then continuing to further distance ourselves in the coming years. I'd say we've got near perfect information on promotional environment heading into NFL. Most operators were out there with their offers for the last week or so. I think it's safe to say that the promotional environment for new customer acquisition is flat to down versus last year. Our offer is the same as last year. So it's great to see the industry acting rationally and focused on gross profit generation from our customers. Yes, I think those are -- yes, so we are ready early indications from the first week of college football are super positive, right on forecast. So we are jamming and the team is -- and my phone is blowing up with like minute-by-minute updates before kickoff, so we are excited.

Pretty exciting. Maybe I can glance over your phone there?

You would be bored by the type of stuff that hits that.

So let's talk about product, right? I mean to a person, everything seems to keep coming back. And again, you kind of walked us through the road map of some of the meaningful movements that you've made. But what's going to be kind of the product that we're talking about as we move through this season? What do you think is going to differentiate? If it was same-game parlay over the last year or 2, how do we push that forward? I've talked to Mike a bunch about different kind of -- some different features. But maybe you can give us a little bit of a sense of some of the feature set? Do you think it's going to differentiate? Is it speed? Is it micro betting? Is it just sort of the depth of markets that you have, give us a couple of the sound bites of what really are going to differentiate and keep the lead that you've had or build on the lead that you've already created?

Yes. And I'll tell you, I think from a product feature functionality versus the #1 -- the current #1 operator out there, there's not really a silver bullet, unfortunately, Shaun. It's not like this is the big thing that's going to completely differentiate. It's really about disciplined process that we're following inside the 4 walls of DraftKings, the coordination between product management and our engineering team, the ability to ingest customer feedback, anticipate customer desires, do competitive benchmarking and really systematically go through each of the things that we could enhance about our product, assign an EBITDA value to debt improvement, prioritize and then just knock them down. And if you go through that, if you look at that list right now, that's probably 12 or 18 months of work. And we just have the resources now, and we think that our pace of making those improvements is completely doable with the resources we have. So I mean -- to try to answer your question, I think same-game parlays, and parlays continue to be a very important focus, and we all know that, that hold rate. We've had, in the first half, a 200 basis point year-over-year improvement in our structural hold rate. We have further improvement embedded within our forecast and guidance for the back half. We'll continue to make strides, both from -- to drive parlay mix, both from a product perspective, but also just introducing and educating the customer about how exciting it is to have that almost lottery ticket sensation attached with the 5, 10-leg parlay bet.

So looking back on it, hold rate improvement and this parlay mix in general has been the big sort of the killer app, the big surprise. How much has it surprised you? And walk us through a little bit of the evolution of what do we need to expect because we do know that in the first half, your comps were much easier than in the second half. So let's help level set expectations, particularly for some luck-based outcomes that you might have as we look forward?

Yes. So just to address like the easier comp in the first half, that's right. Like if you look at the history, I mentioned it, 2021, we finished the migration. 2022, NFL, a year ago today, we brought same-game parlay to the market. 2023, we're extending the lead. The first -- therefore, the first half of 2022, we didn't have the full product, so the comp was a little bit easier. Yes. Look, I think we will -- we've got plenty of headroom on hold rate. We know that FanDuel has said that they are targeting a 12% hold rate over the next few years. It seems like they're pretty close to that already. We are about 9% rate in the first half. We've got some year-over-year improvement embedded. I'm talking structural, no like luck or sport-outcome impact. So I think to the extent that their hold rate is sort of on that type of trajectory, where we're going to be catching up pretty quickly.

So we heard from Caesars earlier, said kind of something interesting, obviously. We know if you skew to perhaps brick-and-mortar larger-sized players that are going to be betting a lot of money-line bets, but aren't going to be, maybe taking the big flyers on parlays. That's actually going to change a little bit of your structural hold rate. For DraftKings, is there any reason you kind of can't get close or equal to where FanDuel wants to get to over time. What would any of those structural differences be if there are any?

I really don't think so. I think what we're looking at is a situation where they were in market earlier than we were with a same-game parlay offering. We were a little bit later, and we're -- so we're playing catch-up. But I don't believe there's any reason why we couldn't achieve and exceed them on hold rate.

One other I want to talk about, just to kind of get people caught up on how you, I think, have narrowed the gap so quickly and continue to accelerate your businesses, sort of your presence across different sports. I mean DFS lends itself, particularly, I think, to NFL draft-based product that you're kind of out there but then that stops, right? It's actually a relatively short season. But it felt like your momentum continued. We got into March Madness, then we get into NBA, then we get into MLB, but each one takes a slightly different skill set, MLB leans in-game, NBA is big on parlay because you're betting player props.

And player props, yes, exactly.

So like -- but -- how did you do -- like, how did you kind of keep that momentum? Was it the freedom of some of your engineering staff to be able to kind of focus on these other product areas now that some of the SBTech integration is done. Just how are you able to kind of crack this code. It honestly feels like it happened in 6 months? And I know it didn't.

Yes. So I think that's exactly right. Like the 1,500-plus engineers we have were so focused in 2021, getting that migration complete in a really seamless fashion. Once that was complete, they could completely redirect their attention to bringing the customer a more wholesome set of markets that they could wager on. We knew that we wanted to do better in NBA, an area where FanDuel had historically beat us. And we knew that, as always, it comes back to product and tech, and we had to get that product and the offerings and the player props and the ability to do player prop parlays in, and it worked. And so we're super happy. We'll look to continue to enhance that going into the NBA season starting in just 2 months. And then yes, exactly, NBA and March Madness, MLB, same thing, engineering resources focused on pitch-by-pitch, live betting. I think we were best in market in terms of the -- in terms of the MLB product offering and the things that our customers could wager on. And like a really small example, we spent a lot of engineering time on the duration that a market is open for a live bet, right? Like, we all experienced latency where the pitch that's being thrown at Fenway Park is 6 seconds -- is happening in real time, we're watching on TV, 6 seconds later. So until we resolve the latency issue in America, the way a betting operator can win is by keeping that window open for a live bet a little bit longer because nothing is more frustrating to a customer than the experience of like wanting to bet that the next pitch is going to be a strike or a ball and then the market closes. There's a way with real engineering work to keep that open. And again, it goes back to like there's no silver bullet. It's just a lot of little things that add up to a superior customer experience.

And how are you deciding which one of those kind of some of the feature set is being done in-house versus what would you or are you at all relying on a third party like a simple bet for certain markets or certain odds, maybe certain algorithmic things. How are you kind of determining that? Which pieces do you control? Are you using a third party? And is the goal to eventually get kind of all of this in-house? Or where do you kind of draw that line?

Yes. I think broadly speaking, we are believers in bringing more and more of our technology in-house, both on the OSB side and on the iGaming side. The build-by-rent decision is a fairly easy math equation to perform on what the third parties wants to extract from a cost perspective versus what it would take from an engineering resourcing perspective to build it and as long as the vendor sort of willing to be reasonable, then continuing to rent is fine. And then layering in some more qualitative things like competitive differentiation to augment the math. But yes, I think broadly, bringing more and more in-house will happen and our confidence that to the extent that there is a part of the technology ecosystem that is an area where we could really differentiate. Then, that would impact the decision to move that up in the product road map to build it ourselves.

We kind of all thought in-game was going to be the killer app and it turned out to sort of be parlay.

I agree.

How would you judge given that latency factor, which is a big deal and even those broadcast delays, I think, in some cases, probably even longer than 6 seconds. Like, how much does that preclude this market? And how much does that just delay sort of the adoption and then you guys are creating these workarounds to find new ways to kind of build this for, okay, maybe it's got to be a drive and not a play. I think we -- some of that type of thing for -- yes, like how -- so where is kind of in-play versus where you think it's going? And how has that market developed?

Yes. I think in-game -- first off, I think the umbrella term of in-game betting is an awfully big umbrella term. So even once kickoff happens, and the line or the over under changes, right, that if a wager is placed, that is considered in-game. Some of the more dynamic point-by-point, is the next serve going to be an ace, is the next pitch going to be a strike or a ball, right, that's sort of more advanced in game. Look, I absolutely think that over the coming years, in-game will grow in proliferation in the U.S, not only because we see in-game as a percentage of total handle in European countries to be much higher than where we are today. But because American sports are so set up for in-game because of stoppage in play. So I do think it will happen. It will be a combination of product and technology, build it, build it so that the customers have it available and some latency issue resolutions that will be a combination of regulatory FCC things, as well as ability to shorten that 6, 8, 10-second delay. So hard to predict. We're still focused on getting that parlay [ mitts ] up now, but it's nice to know that there's going to be another leg of the story, no pun intended on leg count, but there's going to be another chapter around driving in-game betting.

And help us [indiscernible] the hold implications of A versus B. I mean, probably hard to get much better than in-play, I think the way we think about it than parlay. But I think the way we think about it is parlay is probably still best, in-game probably better than money line, but am I in the right ballpark? And how much does maybe in-game fluctuate. It depends on which in-game market, and that can be something that can evolve over time, too?

Joe and Mike always make fun of me, but I always do it. I tell people think about bet types as a 2x2 matrix. Your x-axis is pregame versus in-game and your y-axis is a single bet than a parlay bet. And then within parlay, then you can talk about 2 legs versus 10 legs, but just to keep it simple. In-game single bets are going to hold a little bit higher than pregame single bets. But if you think about parlays, a customer is more likely to parlay pregame. But the holy grail is parlay in-game. So that's -- we're going to go there eventually as well.

I'm like envisioning the chart I'm going to draw as a result of this.

It makes sense, right?

Yes, with a holy grail involved in the cows and butter matrix, right? Okay. So kind of last question on the product side or at least last one that comes to mind at the moment. Another area where it's just been a huge success story has been what we've seen in iGaming. And I don't think it probably is one we actually talk as much about. So what have you done? I mean in the backdrop, you dropped a bunch of engineering talent on getting the OSB side right. But clearly, even with that in the sports, the curve that you walked us through, you still found a way to improve in iGaming and get that cross-sell piece going. So is it as simple as so goes OSB share, so goes iGaming share? And how are you able to do it? Because it doesn't feel like everybody else has necessarily cracked that cross-sell code as well as you have?

Yes. I'll start with product, and then I'll come back to cross-sell, but the thematic that product and tech matters is the main thing, is the right thematic for iGaming as well. So if you look at the history here, interestingly, when we launched OSB in August 2018, we were renting our bet engine. But when we launched iGaming in the end of 2018, December 2018, it was homegrown, the tech stack was homegrown. So we actually were vertically integrated on the iGaming side before we were vertically integrated on the OSB side. And what that means is that we've been able to bring product innovation faster on the iGaming side than we had -- than we were able to because we didn't control our own destiny on the OSB side until 2021. So I think the key drivers for us on the iGaming side, similar, products and tech. So what does that mean? We are bringing in-house more and more of our games. And that's not just the DraftKings version of Blackjack or the DraftKings version of Roulette, but actually creating new games. We've talked about Rocket, which continues to be a best seller, and I continue to hear people tell me, like, this game is so fun. Like this is a really, really fun game to play. And we've launched other games. And we have a pipeline of more games that are going to be only available on DraftKings. And It's great from a customer differentiation perspective when they say, "I love this game. The only place to play it is on DraftKings." It's also great from a CFO perspective on the gross margin rate, not having to pay any rev share when we built it ourselves. And then Jackpot technology is another area. You could put that similar, but we had the foresight probably 2.5 years ago that Jackpot was going to be an important factor in consolidating wallet share of the iGaming customers because to the extent that -- OSB customers, they've got their app. That is where they concentrate their play. iGaming, there might be a little bit more luck -- superstition involved, where on Tuesday, they play on DraftKings; on Wednesday, they play on Golden Nugget; on Thursday, they play on another app, because last time on Tuesday, I did really well on this app. But the Jackpot technology is fantastic because it encourages players to concentrate their play into 1 app, and that becomes DraftKings. So I give the team a ton of credit for having the foresight into the differentiation that Jackpot could bring. It was a hard journey. We tried to build it ourselves. We ended up making a small acquisition in 2022. That team is still with us. And I think we're still even early innings on the Jackpot side.

Sorry, just -- yes, the basic -- what is the Jackpot feature? Is it that you're accumulating a piece of every bet? So you're building and basically, by definition, building some loyalty because you only have a shot to win those dollars that can coming back to you? Is it that simple?

Yes. Yes.

But bit a lot harder to do than to say.

It is way harder to do than the way you've described it. But from the customer perspective, it is as easy as that.

And does that link into any sort of -- look, one thing, I'm sorry, this is, now I'm going off script a little bit. But loyalty is coming up a little bit in other ecosystems. I think it's one of the legs that Fanatics is trying to stand on to link some of their product suite. Does it create an ability to link back and forth between sport? Is there a feature where you can create rewards within that and link that to the casino piece? Is that too much? Is that not necessarily? Or is that possible and valuable?

Yes. And by the way, I didn't -- let me also touch on the cross-sell point, because I do think we are very competent and successful at cross-selling our sports betting customers into iGaming in the states where we are able to through push notification, CRM, through the functionality of the swipe up Blackjack table. So during a commercial break, you can play a couple of hands at Blackjack. That at this point in time, super well-oiled and really happy with the cross-sell rates and very consistent cross-sell rates in that. So I do think when you win in OSB -- when we win in OSB, it definitely is a tailwind to our iGaming market share as well. In terms of loyalty, I mean loyalty does matter, and we are really happy with the loyalty program we have in place right now and the ability to earn crowns through OSB and iGaming as a function essentially of the gross profit that you're generating for the business. And we'll always make small enhancements, but I'd say the big steps we need to take we've taken on the loyalty side. And ultimately, I come back to -- I'm going to sound like a broken record, but people are going to be loyal like you can pay someone to be loyal, but ultimately, they're going to be loyal to the product that they -- that works for them and the experience that is good for them too.

Well, sort of -- and to kind of build off that, obviously, the big investor concern that's out there and the one that's sort of been, we've been talking about on stage all day is the possible changes in that competitive landscape as ESPN Bet comes, as Fanatics makes a push into the fall season here. So put us in your seat a little bit. On the one side, obviously, the momentum in the business is stellar. And you kind of gave us a little bit of a nugget on. It seems like rationality prevailing day one. But how worried are you? Or how do you think about possible destabilization of that? Because I can tell you a lot of people in this room and certainly a lot of people I talk to are very worried that people could destabilize what seemed to be the core tenet of the business, which is, "Hey, look, not only are we're growing on the top line, but we're starting to really rationalize on the bottom line." if we set that back, that curve changes, has a big impact. So how do you think about it? How worried are you that the landscape changes any sight line one way or the other at this point?

It's a great question. And I agree, it seems to be the #1 question that we've heard today. I'd say a few things. First off, we respect all of our competition, and we are constantly watching what they're doing from a promotion, marketing. We do full product and technology teardowns of our competition. So we -- like we understand our competition really, really well. The second thing I'd say is having new entrants or, I don't know if ESPN that's a new entrant or a changed player, it's not new to us. I mean, the industry is not old, 5 years, but this is already our third wave of like, "Holy cow, there's somebody new coming. Yes, there's somebody new coming." And I won't name the operators that were involved in those waves, but it's not new to us to have somebody show up and say, it's going to be -- we're going to be better. And in each of those waves, I would say that we were very disciplined and we stuck to our LTV and CAC outlook for each customer that we are acquiring and how much we're willing to pay, immediately looking at the gross profit profile of those players and determining whether we should be marketing more or marketing less, promoting more, promoting less. And that has served us really well through the first 2 or 3 waves, and that same disciplined approach will serve us well going through this wave. I'd also say, just as a reminder, this is a hard industry. The product and tech story is a very real story. It has taken DraftKings 10-plus years to build the products and tech capabilities, both on iGaming and OSB. We have an excellent suite of engineers, a large and excellent suite of engineers that have put years. Our DNA is mobile technology, I think our brand has reached new heights and awareness is at a great point. Our marketing efficiency is unbelievable. I think our presence in more states than any other operator gives us efficiency on the marketing side. So Shaun, it's a cocktail of elements that make it pretty hard to be a winner in this space.

So just anything -- like one question I get a lot is about moat, and I think you kind of touched on a lot of those -- like a lot of those pieces. Is there, I mean, it sounds like you feel pretty confident about the moat that you have created. But if there is one of those ingredients that, in particular, you're looking at that you think really differentiates DraftKings, which one would you kind of articulate the most to the?

What do you think I'm going to say? Product and tech. Yes. I mean our product is in -- it's just, it's 101. Customers are going to use the product that they enjoy, has the wagers, the markets, the pricing that they want, has the ease of use, deposit withdrawal, by the way, I put products and tech, the ability to get live in more states. So being present in more states is an important part of being -- the product and tech story as well. So I mean, we're proud that we're in more U.S. states and a larger percentage of the U.S. population than anyone else out there, like, you missed a state. It's hard. Americans travel. By the way, they're traveling wallet, right? We continue to only be 1 of 2 operators out there who really do that. And the product and tech, to turn off promos and turn on promos depending on the jurisdiction that you're in, like I've left -- I flew down from Boston yesterday, certain promotions were available in Boston. I land in New York, they're not available, because the gross margin profile of being in New York is very different than what the gross margin profile of being in Boston. That's products and tech. So I think it's a formidable, not only years, but if you were to equip to like engineer years of work that's in our entire tech ecosystem today that -- and we're not standing still, like we're going forward very rapidly.

So with some of the remaining time I want to kind of work through some pieces in the broader financial model. It's sort of obsessed over the long-term financial model slide. And you boil it all down. I think you kind of come out with a couple of key takeaways. But one of the biggest ones is -- one of the cruxes of the business is driving operating leverage on sales and marketing. . And then there's 2 buckets there, obviously. There's reported sort of sales and marketing expense, and then there's really -- when you guys deem external marketing, that's what you build up into your contribution margin. But one piece of pushback that I got a lot in my upgrade report was around -- but Shaun, how can you be so confident that they're going to drive that they can drive so much operating leverage on external marketing? How can they -- because those dollar numbers start to really flatten out. So walk us through that journey a little bit because I think we see it. We actually see that the dollar spend right now. It's not dramatically more than it was a year ago at this time, but help us walk us through why this is sustainable? Why you don't -- why there doesn't have to be another chapter? Because intuitively, as financial people, most of us look at it and we're like, grow things as a percentage of sales. That's what we do, right? So help us kind of show why that -- like why that's [indiscernible]?

Well, first of, to the extent that any of your readers and clients who were pushing back on you, I promise you, I've gotten 50 times the amount of pushbacks on the same topic, and I always answer the same way, which is, look, when a state gets older, there are fewer and fewer customers left to acquire. If you hold your CPA constant, you will spend less marketing dollars in the state. That is happening. We said that for 4 straight years and nobody believed us, like, well, your marketing dollars will never decrease, your marketing as a percentage of sales might go down, but your absolute marketing dollars won't go down. And then when we disclose that in our older states, absolute marketing dollars are declining and then people start going, well -- actually, it does make sense, right? Like you're sort of in a 5-year-old state. There's just not as many people left to acquire. You're not going to throw money out the window to acquire nobody or else your CPAs are going to go -- are going to skyrocket and then your LTV-to-CAC ratio completely breaks. So that is what I would say really simply to give people conviction that absolute marketing dollars in older states will come down. And as more and more of our states entered the third, fourth and fifth year of their existence, the entire marketing budget for the business will go down. Does that help you?

I mean, like I said, I was in that cohort, and I spent enough time with your team and just noodling over it and eventually, like, I said, obviously, I got there. It would have been hard to have written that report without it. But then help us think about, again, you've given us a couple of these nuggets and one of them was the one that I think you just talked about a little bit, even in your most recent disclosures. But talk to us about payback and profitability, some of these cohorts and where you're at with states are -- like, of existing states? How many of these are at the right promotional rate, i.e., kind of down at that long-term 25% to 30%? Are we seeing real progress on the promotional line? And then, yes, on the declines in the dollars on the external marketing side as well?

Yes. So look, the -- everything looks better than what we originally thought when we put our document out in Q1 of 2020. What's happening, the right way to think about this is we just talked about our marketing spend within the state is going to be a function of the number of new customers that are left to be acquired. And the promotional investment into a customer cohort within a state is the same thing. We think about how much we're willing to promote for a new customer versus how much we're willing to promote for an existing customer. Therefore, within a state over time, in the first year, 100% of your customers are brand new. In the fifth year, you're still acquiring a little bit, but 90% of your customers illustratively are existing and only 10% are new. So we are -- in our oldest states, we are -- our overall promotional intensity is not quite all the way down to what steady-state reinvestment would be because we're still acquiring in our oldest vintages, but they are getting -- they are approaching that terminal promo rate, which is a little bit better than what you said, 25% to 30%. So I feel that part of our business model has been like clockwork, where we know how much we're willing to promote to a new customer, existing customer, then it's just math on what is the mix of your new versus existing as the state matures.

The other bucket in sort of that overall SG&A piece, there's a fixed piece of marketing as well that you guys allocate in there. One thing that's come up even today a little bit is as partnerships like ESPN change, and you were the other co-brand -- co-partner for that original ESPN deal, that either frees up dollars that you can allocate somewhere else or may be able to change or speed up some of your leverage or spend in that category. So help us think about some of those -- some -- both your fixed promo dollars and then that sort of overall, some of the ad tech piece that you guys kind of invest in as well? And where can we see some leverage [indiscernible]?

I mean, we do -- on occasion do, like longer duration lead deals, team deals, media deals, they are fairly small as a percentage of our total sales and marketing. And we are very selective about which ones we do. The market rate for some of those deals has been very dynamic because certain operators actually bid up those assets in the 2020 and 2021 time frame, and we walked away from a lot of them. So I think we were very disciplined in that time period to not enter into anything that looks like would be even remotely close to not paying back. So when I look at our fixed marketing that is contractually committed, nothing in there scares me. Like we've been pruning, we've been opting out. So we -- by the way, we do -- we bias towards shorter duration heavily-performance managed, too. So if it's not performing, that gives us the right to get out. And so that's just part of business as usual, which is going through our portfolio of deals and either renegotiating or opting out of anything that is not performing to the CAC levels we need it to be, are not generating customers who represent the LTV-to-CAC ratio that we want to be.

So lightning round to kind of keep you on time and to wrap things up. Biggest kind of question I have remaining is, stocks rallied. This gives you a little bit of a valuation and multiple advantage out there as well. And you've been interested in acquisitions, not always going to the finish line, but [indiscernible] and PointsBet [indiscernible]. Is there something out there? And what would sort of some of those parameters be like for you to look at strategic M&A again?

Yes. And first of all, I don't want to go into it, but both of the examples of [indiscernible] and Points are very, very, very different, neither of which got close to a finish line. Most importantly, like we are laser-focused on the U.S. This is -- this TAM is unbelievable. We've got a great position. We are not taking our eye off the ball on that.

Great. Very simple, elegant. Keep us there, and we'll get you to your next thing. Jason, thank you for joining us.

Awesome. Thank you.

And for everyone, just your final programming note. But if you do want to stick around for a little bit, we'll have some cocktails. Hopefully, we'll have some of the management teams kind of come back up as their meetings end throughout the day. But otherwise, thank you for joining us, and I really appreciate your time tonight.