Dream Impact Trust (MPCTUN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Dream Impact Trust Fourth Quarter Conference Call for Monday, February 2 -- February 12, 2024. During this call, management make statements containing forward-looking information within the meaning of applicable securities legislation. Forward-looking information is based on a number of assumptions and is subject to a number of risks and uncertainties, many of which are beyond the Trust's control that could cause actual results to differ materially from those that are disclosed in or implied by such forward-looking information. Additional information about these assumptions and risks and uncertainties is contained in the Trust's filings with securities regulators, including its final long-form prospectus. These filings are also available on the website at www.dreamimpacttrust.ca. [Operator Instructions] Your host for today will be Mr. Michael Cooper, Portfolio Manager. Mr. Cooper, please go ahead.

Thank you, operator, and good afternoon, everybody. We put out our press release very recently, and we wanted to provide background to the financials, the suspension of dividends, what we're excited about in the company and what is difficult to manage through with these uncertain times. I would like to ask Meaghan Peloso, our CFO, to provide a general update, and then I'll address those issues in a minute.

Thank you, Michael. Hello, everyone. I will briefly speak to the Trust financial results for the quarter and then discuss liquidity. In the fourth quarter, the Trust reported a net loss of $19.7 million. Current period results included fair value write-downs on multi-family and commercial properties due to cap rate and discount rate expansion, which we believe is in line with the general market. Comparative results included a fair value loss from the Trust investment in the Virgin Hotel as well as certain office properties, which was partially offset by a gain on 49 Ontario Street. As it relates to our recurring income segment, we transferred Maple House and Aalto II to the segment this quarter as both buildings achieved substantial construction completion. Maple House, which was formerly WDL Block 8, makes up 770 units in Downtown, Toronto. Aalto II is the Trust's second multi-family building in Gatineau, Quebec at Zibi, comprising 148 units. These things progressed well over the fourth quarter, and we expect it will take another 12 to 24 months for the building to stabilize. The Trust has a 25% and 50% interest, respectively, in these projects. But based on our active multi-family projects under construction today, we expect to add another 1,300 units at 100% asset level to our portfolio by the end of 2025. Factoring in assets, which were acquired in 2022 and given development completions in the fourth quarter, we've introduced same-property NOI disclosure for the multi-family segment. As we bring additional buildings online, we'll continue to build those disclosures for the asset class. In the fourth quarter, same-property NOI from our multi-family assets was $1.4 million, consistent with prior year. On a year-to-date basis, same-property NOI was $5.2 million, up from $3.9 million in the prior year, driven by rental growth and higher occupancies. NOI from commercial properties was $2.7 million in the 3 months ended December 31, which is consistent with prior year, although the tenant composition differed slightly. This past month, we launched sales process for 2 commercial assets located in Downtown Toronto, comprising 95,000 square feet in total. These potential dispositions are expected to provide additional liquidity and in combination with our multi-family development build-out, will help reduce the Trust's exposure to the office class over the long term. Now as it relates to the development segment in the fourth quarter, the segment reported a net loss of $4.7 million compared to net income of $0.5 million in the prior year after adjusting for the fair value loss on the hotel in 2022. Fluctuation relative to the prior year was driven by fair value gains on Maple House in 2022, which were partially offset by occupancy income from Phase 1 at Brightwater generated during the fourth quarter. We currently have 1,600 condo units at 100% asset level under construction between active phases at Brightwater, IVY and Forma East. These projects have strong presales, and we are pleased with the timing and construction progress achieved to date. Details on occupancy dates are included in our MD&A, and we would expect condo closings to occur roughly 6 months afterwards. At December 31, the Trust had total liquidity of $22.9 million comprised of cash on hand and funds available under our operating facility. As of December 31, the Trust's debt-to-asset value was 38.6%, up from 37% at September 30, which was driven by fluctuations in property level fair value adjustments. In 2024, the Trust only anticipated debt maturities related to certain equity accounted investments, of which roughly 70% are either expected to be repaid from condo closing proceeds or are in advanced discussions with lenders for renewals. The remaining maturities are due in the latter half of 2024 and relate to some of our noncore passive investments, which we still have a low refi risk due to the low in-place LTVs. Effective today as part of our fourth quarter results, the Board has decided to suspend the Trust's monthly distribution and DRIP. We expect this will preserve an additional $11 million annually and better position the Trust in light of the uncertain operating environment we're in. We anticipate using the incremental liquidity to help support the interest on our land loans under developments to be delayed and focus capital on our multi-family portfolio, which will further create stability for the business. As projects commence and we're able to complete construction on build-to-hold assets, the distribution will be reevaluated. The last distribution declared prior to the suspension will be paid on February 15. Lastly, as part of today's Board meeting, the Trust and Dream are in agreement to further extend the payment of management fees and units versus cash to continue supporting the Trust liquidity needs subject to unitholder approval at the 2024 AGM. Details will be included in the Trust's circular. With that, I will now turn the call back over to Michael.

Thanks, Meaghan. I'll try to explain our view of the company and where we see the future. We currently have about $1.6 billion of assets. Over $1 billion of these assets are income properties and income properties under development, plus a little bit of presold condos. This $1 billion is either income property that will produce income for years to come or something like IVY condos that will produce cash during closing in the next couple of months. This category represents much of the value of the company. The leverage in this category comes from either like CMHC financing of apartments and apartments, which have very low interest rates and a high leverage. And these buildings have increasing growth as time goes by in the rents and in the net operating income. These buildings are very valuable, and we expect that they will continue to become more valuable. As Meaghan mentioned, for apartments right now, there's some cap rate expansion and that's where some of those fair market value losses came from. However, the net operating income is growing, and we expect that the value will stabilize and then the values will increase as net operating income continues to grow. Our developments had cost to complete financing for construction, which is usually about 75% of the total cost. So the leverage that we have on this $1 billion is really a result of typical construction financing and typical CMHC financing. So they are as they should be, and we think it really is the core part of the business. We also have some passive investments that we expect to liquidate over the next couple of years, and they'll drive a lot of liquidity. And we also have land loans that we've used to acquire land for future development, which are generally a very important part of the future of our business. One thing is in a little bit in-between the income properties and development land loans is the master commute planned communities of Zibi and Brightwater. We've been making progress on these developments. And every time we started building, we paid on the land loan and they become -- and the land loans were encouraged to create the infrastructure. So every time we started building, we paid down the land loan and the developments become less risky as time goes by. We've been making progress advancing land held for development into land under development and finally, into income properties that are stable with recurring income. In 2023, we completed another building at Zibi with 148 units, which is about 40% leased in the first couple of months, building of 770 units in West Don Lands, I think it's Maple that are now being leased up and it's doing quite well. And the next building made up of 207 units is also in Zibi in the Ottawa side, and we've just started leasing in February, and we expect to have another 237 units in Toronto this year from the Indigenous Hub. So that's about 1,500 units. Next year, we expect to have the next building of West Don Lands, 855 units completed. So just between 2004 and 2005 (sic) [ 2024 and 2025 ], we expect to have another 1,300 units completed, which is a significant amount. In addition to what is under construction or just recently delivered, this year, we expect to start development of 2 blocks in Zibi, which will reduce our land loan as we pay them down to start construction. And we may also start a block of condominiums in Brightwater, which will also help us reduce the land loan. So basically, we have 3 stages of development. First, we have the predevelopment stage, which is when the company has to pay the cost of holding land, the interest costs and generally on a current basis. So that makes it a real cash drag. In the second stage, we're able to have the approvals in place, the zoning in place, presales or whatever else we need, we're able to start construction. And with issuing this side and this stage is there's no longer a net of carry because all of the interest gets paid out of the loan, so you eliminate any negative costs and you're off to building an income property. Now the third stage is when the income property is completed, and the development, the capital that's invested begins to return income and cash flow. Now we have many properties completing development, as I mentioned earlier, and becoming income properties this year and next. We also have many pieces of land that are becoming developments shortly. So each year, we save money on the land or start to generate cash flow or both. Now the last few years have been very difficult as the last 20 years of declining interest rates have reversed and we have much higher interest rates than we've had in decades. These higher interest rates have increased the cost of holding land. These higher interest rates have also hurt consumers' ability to buy condominiums. And as a result, a lot of the condominium launches have been delayed and the construction start of a lot of condominiums have been delayed. So with construction costs at high levels, our industry and our company has not been able to start as many projects as planned, and the cost of holding land has increased dramatically. And just for a sense of scale, about 1/2 of the condominiums that were expected to start in 2023 were deferred until at least this year. For impact, we have a couple of hundred million dollars of various land holdings, including income properties, where the highest value is land like 49 Ontario. Now this could cost, let's say, $7.5 million a year, 2 years ago, and now it could be as much as $20 million a year. So that's a huge increase. As a result, we have more land in the first stage of development where interest needs to be paid in cash out of our internal resources. However, with the recent decline in interest rates from 4.2% to 3.5% and the waiver of HST, we are back on track putting land into development. This allows us to achieve development returns, pretty much as we would have expected a couple of years ago and to stop paying current interest as the construction loans cover the interest. And as we continue, we get closer to receiving income as the projects finish. Over the next 2 years, we plan to reduce our land loans by about 50%, which should save us about $10 million a year in interest. Specifically, we're working on selling part of 49 Ontario as we take the final steps to start development, which we anticipate will be in 2025. Another example is that Scarborough Junction, we have a $47 million land loan. We will receive 23% of the profits as we are partners of this site. The site is close to completion for rezoning for 5.5 million square feet. The total debt is only $18 per square foot. Now this partnership was arranged to assemble the land, rezone it and sell it. So I mean, that's an easy way to get rid of $47 million of land loans. We're completing the final stages of negotiation on the financing for LeBreton, and we expect to start that in the next 6 weeks. Now that's a project that we had hoped to start in March or April, but interest rates were too high, and with HST, we couldn't start it. But we've been working with CMHC and others, and we're thrilled that now it's back on track. We also expect to start a new building in Ottawa this year and maybe another one in Gatineau. And that will probably reduce debt at Zibi by about $50 million. If we do the same amount in 2025, it will reduce by another $15 million. And similar to Zibi at Brightwater, each building that we start will help us reduce the land loans outstanding. So I think we're going to be able to make enormous progress reducing our land over the next 24 months. And then after that, we think we can start Quayside, and we're looking to see when we start Victory Silos and Gehry West, and that's basically all of the land loans we have. So we're very excited to see LeBreton getting started, building a little bit more in Zibi and continually moving a land that is held for development into production. As Meaghan mentioned, we'll be reaching stabilized occupancy on the building completed in 2023 and 2024 over the next 2 years, so that's going to increase our income. And our largest building block 347 in West Don Lands will start lease-up in 2025. So those will all help. Aside from suspending the dividend, we are moving forward with the sale of some passive investments and planned income property sales to secure liquidity needed for the business while we develop land into income properties to create a long-term portfolio. We listed one of our commercial assets. We've got [ 40 ] signed confidentiality agreements from investors. And we're hopeful that, that will move along, but we've got quite a few other activities that are [ reselling ] noncore assets. With the liquidity from the various asset sales and the reduction in land loans and the decline in interest payments, in addition to the increase in completed income properties, the business will be almost all income properties and many of the income properties will be apartments. And once we get this all set up, we'll continually revisit our distribution policy at every meeting. We are running the business in uncertain times, and I think that sometimes it's lost just how significant it is for half of the new developments to be postponed and paying interest on projects that used to be 3% for holding land to potentially paying 8%. Although a lot of people believe interest rates are declining, and we would agree with the consensus, when we look at our projections for the business, we keep the interest rates basically where they are now just to be conservative. We believe that under current conditions, we have a plan to manage the company to reduce risk and increase value. The industry consensus calls for improvement conditions, which would be helpful, but we do not count on them. Despite the difficulties as a result of both rising interest rates and increasing construction costs, we have had success working with governments that want to increase housing supply as demand continues to increase. There's almost unlimited demand for new housing, and we continue to work towards providing increasing housing at all price points and making fair returns for our investors on a project-by-project basis. That's the background I wanted to share with everybody, and I'd be happy to answer questions. If there any at this time, Meaghan or I will be happy to answer questions.

[Operator Instructions] The first caller comes from Alexander Leon from Desjardins Capital Markets.

My first question is on the properties listed for sale. I was wondering if you guys would be willing to disclose which properties those are and maybe just a little bit of commentary on how they were selected for disposal like it was the result of any inbound interest or otherwise?

Well, 2 buildings that are known to be a market leader, 10 Lower Spadina and I believe 349 Carlaw, and they're both assets that have no debt on them. So that makes them attractive to sell because every dollar of proceeds we get to use. And I think they're pretty desirable assets, so we thought we would check it out and see how it goes. And as I mentioned on -- we were getting a lot of interest from high-quality potential buyers, and we're hoping to see through the process, but I think it looks pretty good.

Okay. Awesome. And is the trust like contemplating a more fulsome asset disposition? Or is it limited to these 2 assets for now?

No, there's -- I mentioned that we wanted to sell some of the passive investments, including Scarborough Junction. But I would say -- so we want to sell passive investments. And I think we talked about bringing a partner into 49 Ontario. And I think we'll be looking selectively at other commercial assets as well. I think that the multi-family is really becoming the core part of our business.

Okay. Got you. In terms of Maple House and Aalto II, I'm just wondering if those had any meaningful contribution to NOI this quarter.

I don't think there would be much. Meaghan?

No. Alex, it wasn't overly meaningful this quarter. We'll start to see more meaningful results over the next, I'd say, 4 to 6 quarters from both those assets.

They're about 40% leased, and we're paying a bunch of operating costs. So we'll have to get more fully leased before they contribute more.

Okay. Awesome. And then maybe last one for me. Just kind of thinking about how rents have increased so dramatically in 2023. I'm wondering if you've seen any meaningful increase in the demand for your affordable units relative to the market units?

Well, it's interesting because in 2023, I think the market rents increased, but nowhere near the rate that they did in prior years. I think it was about 4.5% for the year. I could be wrong, but I think that was my recollection. In fact, they were pretty flat for the last quarter. On the affordable housing, I think every unit we have, there'll be people interested in because a lot of them are half price. So there's not more interest, it's the same interest.

The next question comes from [ Ryan Hall ], a private investor.

Impact units right now are trading at one of the largest discounts to NAV in the entire Canadian REIT space. The assets, of course, are a very good quality with a focus on residential. Do you have any comments on a strategy on how to close the gap between the discount and your stated NAV?

Yes. No, I mean, we're very much aware at the discount to market, and it's been very disappointing. But what's happening now is this company has very high leverage and has a lot of development assets. And the market has moved very fiercely against that. We also have some office, and that's a big negative, too. So I think that from our perspective, with where we're at in the market that's pretty much frozen on sales -- not all frozen, but a lot frozen. We're going to continue to do this -- well, as I mentioned in our piece that we're looking to sell a bunch of assets, complete developments and look to having a mostly apartment multi-family business as we get through the next 24 months.

Okay. And approximately a year ago, Dream Unlimited is purchasing a material amount of units, approximately March at over 2x the current price of what they're trading for right now. Does -- is there an opportunity there for Dream to take on more units?

There could be. What I would say is last January and February were very strong and very encouraging. And then the next 10 months was pretty tough. We've been, as an organization, relatively risk-averse over the last 5 years. And we've bought back a lot of stock in a lot of our businesses, but I think we are now being a little bit more cautious using our capital to buy back stock. But in Dream Impact Trust, I could see us buying some -- back some at some point. But we'll make that decision as we look at how the rest of the year goes on Dream Unlimited's businesses.

The next question comes from David Chrystal from Echelon Capital Markets.

Michael, could you on the asset sales provide any color on the type of buyers that are expressing interest and maybe any kind of commentary on pricing?

Well, it's too early on pricing because all we've really seen is the names of people who have signed the confidentiality agreement. I'd say a couple of things that we're thinking. In other parts of our organization, we're also selling other assets. There is quite a good profile of buyers. A lot of them are real estate people and very ultra high net worth people. So I think that's kind of interesting. Like they're not REITs and they're not pension funds, but they're shrewd investors. And especially in office, what we're seeing is more interest in investing in the office buildings that we're not necessarily seeing in the leasing interest. So it looks as if investors have become more bullish and they're ready to make decisions, the operating environment is still a little slower. So hopefully, that's a sign we've seen like other times where the investors start to invest first and then we start to see the operating performance later.

Okay. And for 49 Ontario and Scarborough Junction, those sounds -- both sound like they could be big chunky bits of cash into your pockets. Have you started any marketing process on either of those? And is there much take-up on those assets?

We've been working on 49 Ontario with potential partners. We're also working getting financing to start development. So that one -- it's a big project. We're putting all the pieces together. I think we're looking for maybe the second quarter of 2025 to get a transaction done one way or another. And you can't tell how you're tracking 15 months out, but that's what we're doing there. I mentioned Scarborough Junction earlier because we're a passive investor, and that was a decision we made quite some time ago. And the mandate of that investment vehicle is just to get it rezoned and sold. So we're not involved in that. But I literally think last week, there may have been a closing of the gap in terms of the zoning, and we may be ready to go soon. But no, I haven't seen any -- we're not involved in leading that nor do I know anything about whether people are interested or not.

Okay. Fair. And then maybe just high level from a kind of total liquidity perspective in 2024, 2025. You're sitting on $23 million of cash on hand. You've obviously eliminated the drag of distributions, but what incremental spend is required to complete existing projects?

It's very little. It's very little. And there might be maybe $10 million or $12 million from all the income properties. And on the projects under development that we are committed to, maybe another $5 million.

Okay. So existing liquidity covers it. And then maybe just shifting to the operations in the multi-family side, there was a sequential dip in multi-family occupancy in the same property portfolio. Is there anything structural here? Or is this asset specific or just a kind of a quirk of timing?

I think some of it is explained the fact that in Gatineau, the first building we had some people leave while we're leasing up the second building and a lot of that has been addressed. I think overall, our portfolio is doing quite well other than that building. But at year-end. So I think it's doing better since.

Okay. So maybe just a little bit of pulling tenants out of one building to another of your buildings?

No, it's not that. It's that people signed a lease for a year. When the year came up, some people may have left, and we're marketing and building next door. So we're kind of competing with ourselves a little bit.

Okay. Got you. Got you.

And I think it's mostly been addressed since then. Yes. But...

Okay. Sorry. Just on the accounting side for the -- for Maple House and Aalto. Were 100% of the operating and interest expenses reflected in the quarter when those were shifted into income properties?

They would have moved over to recurring income midway through the quarter. So -- and as I mentioned earlier, they weren't really contributing meaningfully to NOI. So we'll start to see that uptick going forward.

Okay. And remind you, the RCFI financing, the interest rate for construction and takeout financing are the same?

That's correct. So I believe Maple House has another 5 years or so in terms of terms.

Okay. And is there any incremental liquidity opportunity on takeout? Or is it all kind of locked in based on the initial financing?

By the way, we don't mean to interrupt you. We're just having a lag. So it's been a little frustrating. The loan doesn't come up until, I think, 2029 or 2030. So there's no opportunity to increase the financing because it's already in place, and it's been -- it's at a great rate. So it's wonderful.

The next question comes from Sam Damiani from TD Cowen.

Just on the decision to suspend the distribution, I guess just you referenced waiting for developments to be completed and obviously generating the NOI and then getting land under development and assessing liquidity needs. But like at the end of the day, why was the decision made this quarter versus last quarter? What was kind of the tipping point that was reached? I guess, and I have a follow-up question on that too.

That's a great question. Starting in August of last year, the long bond started to go up. And in September and early October, it went up a lot. That's when it hit 4.2%. And I think that really affected people's views of the value of some of the buildings. I think that's where cap rates started to move a little bit more. And we had our Board meeting in November, which was just around there. We discussed it then. In December, we had a strategic planning session where we went over everything, including the new information and we discussed it thoroughly then. So this is the first meeting after that.

Okay. And is it fair to say some of the new information includes a longer expected lease-up and stabilization of the income properties that are reaching completion? And maybe are some budgets on some developments, has there been inflation there that has made things a little tighter as well?

No. I think basically, the periods have stabilized, maybe we hope to do better than budget, but the budget looks okay and the budget costs are relatively okay. It's really a result of having land loans with interest rates based on prime or off of BAs with a big spread and the fact that things have slowed down as much as they have in starting. So now in the last 6 months, it's been -- everybody in our industry is seeing the difficulty to start new developments. So the HST waiver has been really good. That goes really well with CMHC financing, which is not easy. We're making a lot of progress. So it's really the fact that there is a backup of land that's going to get developed as soon as it can be absorbed, but that's lower than we thought for everybody.

Got you. It's encouraging to hear that you see the stars have kind of aligned to be able to start construction on the LeBreton. I think you said in March, you're hoping to start construction there. How have the stars aligned and maybe if you could put some numbers around it? I remember a year or 2 ago, there was some disclosure on sort of targeted, I guess, stabilized cap rates on developments in -- I don't know in the mid-4s, maybe I can't remember. That was -- that disclosure was suspended. But like what sort of unlevered yield -- stabilized yield are you now expecting on this new project?

We're still finishing up the financing. And one thing that always happens is because we're charging less rent, we have less NOI. The interest should be much lower than if we borrowed money at 7.5%. But we still haven't locked it in. But when I saw it, I think I looked at it today, I think we're looking at trying to not go off side of anything. But I think we're looking at mid-teens for a 10-year develop and hold return.

Okay. And just finally, on the fee being settled in units, again for 2024. I don't know if you can talk about how long that new agreement or renewal is going to go for. But I guess the other main question is, would the units be issued at NAV as they were previously?

Yes. We have had discussions about it today, we will finish up our discussions by the time we mail the circular. The plan is for it to be for 3 years. And I think that -- it will be similar to how it is today in terms of whether -- it will not be at the stock price. It will be at a price that's much more similar to NAV or historic numbers of units.

The next question comes from [ Steve Levin ], a private investor.

Congratulations, I guess, on moving the ball along and having a phenomenal pool of assets in various stages of development. I just have a couple of questions. The other questions have already been answered. At the investor meeting in September, there was a discussion about 49 Ontario and that it was being marketed and that you were looking for a partner. And there was just a speculative comment made that perhaps it could be a process concluded in 6 months. And hypothetically, there would be $150 million of value there in the project and it could free up $50 million of liquidity. In the conference call today, you talked a little bit about 49 Ontario. But if you wouldn't mind just to talk a little bit more about how the marketing has gone and what the time line is? Because I think the last suggestion in a comment was second quarter of 2025 for some level of completion or some benchmark or something, but I wasn't quite clear where we are now and where you'll be in that second quarter of 2025 that you referenced.

I wish you [ were at my old extension, ] nobody ever listens to me that close. To be specific, in September, what we were talking about was having some kind of agreement within 6 months. Even if we did, the expectation would be that until the tenant leaves and we are close to starting construction, we wouldn't have thought it would close. So we were working towards a deal. We're still talking to some of the same people. And at the same time, we're now working on financing to fund the development. That's going to take a little bit of a while. But if we can get the funding for development, we can get a higher proceeds. So we're moving along the same way and since we can't close anyway until it becomes a development site when the tenant leaves. We're trying to maximize the value and the cash that we get out of it. And I think we'll continue to give updates on it, but they're actually not that different.

Okay. But there's nothing that's happened in the interim that makes you feel that somehow the process is longer -- taking longer or that the enthusiasm about it is more restrained and disappointing. There's no element of that?

So what we were talking about before was selling a portion of the site, which means having a partnership. We have not put the asset up for sale in its entirety. It's got over 1,000 units. So probably it has to be 2 buildings. We've got the zoning done. That's a large building, so we've looked at selling half. So we're working on it, but I think that it is harder to get transactions done now, but there's actually quite a bit of interest in that one. So I'm not sure if we're -- think it's not as good. I think we have a better idea of what we want to do than we had in September.

Okay. So -- and just in terms of information to the marketplace because I think because it's such a significant asset, when do you see being in a position to be able to make some sort of material disclosure about it that could be impactful to the way the units are perceived in the market? Just in terms -- because that was one of the goals discussed in September that, that would be like a marquee transaction in terms of proving up what Dream Impact is all about. Do you have a sense of when you may be able to make enough progress to make some sort of useful disclosure?

I'm being a little bit opaque because a lot of this is sensitive. So I feel sometimes that maybe I shouldn't say as much as I do. But because things are in progress, it's very difficult to comment. What I did say, I'll repeat what I said, which was we're working on doing the financing because we think with finance we get a higher price for a partner. So that's what our focus is right now actually. I'm not sure maybe it's -- I don't know, maybe it's 4 to 6 months to get feedback on the financing. But I would say probably 4 to 6 months, we'll definitely have an update.

Okay. Excellent. Another small point. In terms of the 2 assets that are now currently for sale, I'm no real estate guy. Could you give an order of magnitude of what 10 Spadina and Carlaw properties might bring in? Is it a $10 million to $20 million, a $20 million to $30 million, a $5 million to $10 million sort of issue here or asset?

They probably should be over $25 million together. And as I mentioned, there's no debt on them.

Yes. Excellent. And then just if you could just -- I hate to keep pushing you back to strategy. One of the very difficult things about the company is that it has so many fantastic assets. But the liquidity continues to be an issue. And it's not like one big factory that you have to make a decision to keep the factory, to sell the factory. It's like there's so many pockets of value and not all of them are related one to the other in terms of being contiguous properties or having partnerships with other entities [ within Trust or ] Dream, but they're kind of like stand-alone assets. I'm just wondering strategically why you continue to try to capture all the upside of all these balls that are being juggled in the air as opposed to substantially shrinking the number of opportunities, so that it becomes just a little bit less difficult to follow and the market, we would not have that thing difficulty in assigning value.

So I would say that it's harder to execute anything today than it's been in many, many years. So I think sometimes people expect us to get stuff done instantly, and the private market now is quite slow. But I'll repeat what I was saying, what I said was we're looking at getting liquidity out of a good portion of the commercial assets. We're looking for getting money out of the passive assets, and we're looking to become a lot more apartment. So I think -- that's my way of saying what you just said.

Next question comes from [ Ryan Hall ], a private Investors.

Sorry, one more question that kind of piggybacks off of a few other developments there. 100 Steeles Ave. It was supposed be through density approval sometime in 2023, but it was slightly delayed from the city there. Do you have any update or comments on that property and what we plan on doing with it?

That project is not slightly delayed. It is a lot delayed. It's been a very complicated project, and it's gone much slower than we expected. I don't have a recent update. I will check on it. But I think in that -- that's not in Toronto, it's just north of Toronto, and there's been a number of significant issues that are getting worked through very, very slowly. Operator, I think we're pretty much -- sorry, go ahead.

Sorry, one more question here. In regards to the last caller, you mentioned selling assets and trying to get things done. Have you thought of a format at all to sell that asset, to raise liquidity and possibly buy back units? Or do something with that cash as a better use of capital than staying on development that's going to take many years to close out?

Well, I mean, I think I've said for a while that buying back stock is off the table because the first use would be liquidity. So I don't think that's going to happen. Yes, I know it's not that fast, but we are finishing buildings pretty quick. So I think that we're going to try to sell the assets that are not as core. And I think the best parts of this business are the multi-family assets, both the value add, which are the ones we bought as well as the ones under development. Those are assets we want to keep. We think that's the best part of the company. So watch what we do because we're going to be trying to raise a bunch of capital and narrow the focus of the business over the next year or 2. Operator, thank you very much. I think that's all the time we have. Meaghan and I are available for anybody who has follow-up questions. We really appreciate everybody's questions. We are working hard. And I think that we're very disappointed in some of the results, even though we're working on projects that we think have a great outcome. But this has been a very difficult time with interest rates backing up so much and the slowdown in the industry, but I think we are making a lot of progress, and I hope that, that will be well rewarded for you. Operator, thank you very much. And once again, we'd be happy to answer questions if you reach out to Meaghan or me. Thank you, everybody.