DSM-Firmenich AG (DSFIY) Q3 FY2025 Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, and thank you for joining today's call. I'm sitting here with Dimitri de Vreeze, our CEO; and Ralf Schmeitz, our CFO. This morning, we published our third quarter trading update, together with a presentation to investors, which you can find on our website. Here you can also find our disclaimers about forward-looking statements. Importantly, and as a reminder, sell-side analysts who want to ask questions in the Q&A section of this call will need to register via the questionnaire link, which they can find on our website in the Financial Calendar. And with that out of the way, let's start Dimitri.

Yes. Thank you, Dave, and indeed, welcome to everybody, and we appreciate you all dialing in this busy morning for you. DSM-Firmenich delivered a solid 2% organic sales growth in the quarter against a high prior year comparison and that all in this current macroeconomic environment. The quarter started well in July, very much in line with previous quarters. But from August onwards, the macro environment began to shift. Sentiment changed driven by geopolitical tensions, tariffs and currency movements. And naturally, that made some of our customers a bit more cautious in their behavior, and we've seen reduced visibility going forward. However, on a positive note, end-use data and retail data remains strong. So we shouldn't extrapolate too far ahead. We need to see how this plays out. The good news is that our key strategic end markets -- strategic end markets continue to demonstrate very strong fundamentals and those favorable megatrends, which will be explained about in Nutrition, Health and Beauty, continue to support us and bringing us in a very strong position going forward. In this current environment, we continue to perform well in the third quarter. We delivered a solid organic sales growth against these tough prior year comps, but with a strong 10% step-up of adjusted EBITDA on a comparable net basis, meaning adjusted for FX and the divestments we have done. Our core business units, the consumer-focused ones, continue to perform well and had an adjusted EBITDA margin nicely improving on that trajectory, nicely improving to 20%.

Maybe -- yes, exactly. Can the operator move the slides?

That would be nice, yes. You see the numbers also in the press release. So during that quarter, we advanced strongly on our strategic plan, remain firmly on track to deliver the merger synergies. Ralf will talk to you about that a little bit more around the cost and revenue as well as our self-help programs. And importantly, the success of our vitamin transformation program is even clear, even in a quarter where vitamin prices receded, which brings me with a nice bridge to our outlook. And if you go through the outlook slide, maybe next slide. Here, you see the outlook for 2025. For the full year, we now expect an adjusted EBITDA of around EUR 2.3 billion. And this reflects the estimated full year EUR 90 million negative foreign exchange effect and a EUR 50 million lower contribution from vitamins, less than previously expected. And let me explain. In respect to the FX, when we spoke back in July, our full year outlook included a EUR 25 million FX impact. We had that in Q2. And we've seen that FX currency has worsened further. And we mentioned that risk in Q2, and it now became a persistent headwind in 2025, and therefore, we have included it in our outlook. On top of that, vitamin prices fell faster than we expected during the quarter. So instead of seeing another EUR 25 million positive benefit in the second half from the special vitamin effect, we won't have any special effect anymore in the second half. In fact, the current volatility with customers temporarily deferring vitamin orders anticipating on lower prices also means that we expect a negative EUR 25 million effect from vitamins in Q4. It's important to note that the updated outlook is driven by external factors, while our underlying business is delivering a solid performance in today's macroeconomic situation. To put this into perspective, we expect to deliver more than a EUR 300 million step-up correcting for FX and investments, and you do see that here on that slide. And that means that the adjusted EBITDA increases from about EUR 2 billion to EUR 2.3 billion in 2025. And before I hand over to Ralf for a bit more color, a few words on the Animal Nutrition & Health exit. While the process is taking longer than initially anticipated, we remain committed to bring this process to a conclusion in the fourth quarter, and we will only communicate when we have something to communicate. And I hope you appreciate that. And with that, over to you, Ralf.

Well, thanks. Good morning, everybody, from my side as well. Always good to be with you on a day -- on the announcement. On a bit of a lighter note, today is Dave's birthday as well. I hope I'm not crossing any privacy here, Dave, but people will be nice to you on the back of that. But let's zoom into the financials, starting a bit with the group. Overall, we delivered a 2% organic growth in the quarter, and that translated into a nice step-up in EBITDA performance. When adjusting for the FX and the divestments, the divestment has a sizable impact given the fact that we sold the feed enzymes to Novonesis, but also the divestments in both TTH and HNC, and I'll comment on that when we get to the BU pages. If you adjust for that, a nice step-up in the quarter of around 10%. It's consistent with what we have seen throughout the year, and it nicely fits to the comment Dimitri made earlier, where we see a good step-up in our business on the back of self-help. Program contributed nicely again in the quarter. We have some numbers around that in both in the PTI, where we also show the Q3 year-to-date. I'll zoom in predominantly on the Q3 and in the press release as well. Overall, programs have contributed a little over EUR 150 million in Q3 year-to-date, which is nicely in line with the commitment at the beginning of the year. Margins continue to improve as well. However, Dimitri and myself are steering more on the margin, what we call of the core activities, the group, excluding ANH, that delivered a nice 20% margin in the third quarter and is nicely in line with the growth trajectory that we're managing towards the 22% margin for the group. If you look at it from a growth perspective, overall, you see 2% growth driven by prices. I think here, it's important to look at the dynamic per BU where we've seen a solid volume growth in the key strategic segments, Perfumery & Beauty, TTH and HNC. The volume was negative in ANH, and I'll give a bit of color on that around the vitamins there. And allow me also to make a comment on cash. It's not on the page, but we delivered a strong cash performance in the third quarter. Overall, we had a step-up of well over 10% compared to Q3 last year. That brings the quarter to -- or the full year-to-date, sorry, to a little under EUR 700 million, and we expect a continued strong performance in the fourth quarter as well as we focus on cash. Let's then zoom in into the businesses on the next page, starting with Perfumery & Beauty. So to the next page, please, operator. And then if you look at Perfumery & Beauty.

The next page is another page, no? Let's say that Perfumery & Beauty page.

Yes. There we are. Very good, then we're speaking to the same page online. So overall, Perfumery & Beauty, keep in mind the comps of last year, where we had an 11% volume growth in Perfumery & Beauty, delivered a solid step-up of 2% in the quarter. Where Perfumery continued to perform well, overall, a 4% organic growth on the back of continued strong dynamics in Fine Fragrance that delivered overall a high single-digit performance in the quarter. A solid performance in Consumer Fragrance, where we did see some softer demand from our global accounts. You heard Dimitri talk about a bit of the cautiousness. We see that predominantly with the global and key accounts across our businesses. So we've witnessed that here as well. And Ingredients actually continued to perform well as we've seen throughout the year. Overall, Perfumery & Beauty is impacted by Beauty & Care that remained soft in the third quarter. Whilst we've seen the effects of the EU filters fade out in line with the guidance that we gave before, we didn't see the business pick up yet. So hence, overall, a bit of softness. And we also had a lower Aroma in the quarter on the back of a force majeure at a supplier where we didn't get the product to produce and hence, it had an impact on top line and bottom line. Overall, margins remained healthy at a 22% plus level, within our targeted midterm range, whilst absorbing some negative FX and the impact of that force majeure of a couple of million in the quarter. So overall, I think P&B, a solid performance. Let's -- with that, move Taste, Texture & Health on the next page, please. Also, Taste, Texture & Health continued to perform well against the tough comps. I need to mention that by both P&B and TTH last year was a 13% growth in the quarter. Again, a good performance of 3% organic, fueled by synergies. Very pleased with the development of the pipeline there. We keep on calling that out, at the half year, if you recall or look at your notes, we quoted a little under EUR 400 million. That has meanwhile grown towards EUR 500 million. So an encouraging step-up as one would hope, and that is what we're steering for. But as a CFO, I'm keen to see the invoices go up and also that continues to trend up nicely quarter after quarter. We've meanwhile invoiced a little over EUR 150 million. which translates into a realization rate of well over 40% now in TTH, and that continues to do well. Then looking a bit at the segments. Dairy, Baking [ and Pet Food ] continued to perform well, with good growth in the quarter. On the global accounts, a bit similar to P&B, we've seen a bit of softness with some careful order intake. I think they're carefully managing and navigating inventories through the chain whilst looking at their own growth volumes, and that's something that we see coming across also a bit at the larger regional accounts impacting the quarter and will probably carry a bit into Q4. If we look at it from a margin perspective, very happy with the development there. Overall, another strong quarter of performance. Again, when adjusting for the FX and the divestment of the yeast extract business to Lesaffre, a 10% step-up in the business organically, which is encouraging to see, and it's largely in line with the half year performance as well. So a very good step-up in absolute EBITDA in Taste, Texture & Health, but also the margin. I mean, 20.6%. You know I've explained that a few times, but I always comment on it. The Lesaffre deal is a bit dilutive in '25 only given the fact that we still need to supply the product throughout the year at cost. If you adjust for that, the margin is now nicely into the 21%, similar to Q2, which is in line with our guidance and the trajectory that we want to see in the business. So a continued good development on that front. Then moving to Health, Nutrition & Care on the next page. Also here, a continuation of the growth story. Go back -- we've been back to growth since mid-last year, and we've been growing quarter after quarter, not only top line, but also bottom line and margin. I think that has to go hand in hand. Here, another quarter with growth driven by ELN, which is benefiting from the HMO. We've been talking about receiving customer acceptance and clearance in China that is nicely coming through in line with expectation. And we're happy to see that we're moving forward on HMO starting Q3. Also Dietary Supplements continued the steady recovery that we've seen throughout the year, and that is continuing into the third quarter. Biomedical was robust throughout the year. Eye Health was a bit softer. There, we see, especially at the retailers, a bit of more cautionary inventory management. I think then the amount of product on the shelves is thinning a bit on the back of some uncertain data around consumers, especially in the U.S. As said, EBITDA margin and absolute EBITDA showing a nice step-up. Here also, you have the FX impact and the divestments. The organic growth is nicely up, 12% in the quarter, closer to 20% in the year, which is a very nice improvement. But what I find very important is the constant improvement in margin, a 2% step-up versus prior. And Q3 was 19%, and we expect a further improvement going into the fourth quarter on that front. Then last but not least, Animal Nutrition & Health. On the next page, please. So overall here, you see a flattish growth, negative volume and a positive price. The negative volume is coming from the essential products, the vitamin business. You heard Dimitri say about declining prices in the quarter. In such an environment, customers typically hold back on their order pattern. It had an impact on the group and certainly here in ANH. Overall, on the contrary, Performance Solutions continues to hold up nicely and perform well as they've done throughout the year. So we're pleased with that. And from an operating performance, the margin is up and also a nice organic step-up in EBITDA, predominantly on the back of our self-help measures with the vitamin transformation program. So overall, EBITDA was up EUR 86 million. But given the falling prices, here, we're also guiding for a lower Q4 on the back of that volatility now that the force majeure has ended in the quarter. I think with that, Dave, let's leave enough time for Q&A. So back to you.

I think we're ready for Q&A. Maybe as a reminder, sell-side analysts who want to ask questions in this Q&A session have to be registered the questionnaires' questions link, which they can find on our website in the Financial Calendar. [Operator Instructions] And with that, operator, we can start and please give us the first question.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from Lisa De Neve from Morgan Stanley.

I have two. One is on the full year guide. Can you give us an idea in terms of which trading trends that have [ prospired ] in the third quarter you're seeing lingering into the fourth quarter? Would just be a good idea to sort of get some sense of where Fragrance Ingredients, where Beauty & Care, sun filters are trading into the fourth quarter? That's my first question. And then secondly, just on Health, Nutrition & Care. Can you share what's driving the strength in Early Life and whether you have seen any HMO-related customer launches in China? And if not, if that's something you would expect maybe to see coming through over the next 2 quarters?

Yes. Indeed, thanks for those questions. Let me give you a bit of color on the businesses on Q3 into Q4. And then at the end, also take HNC and indeed, like you said, HMO's impact helping us on the ELN side. So let's start with Perfumery & Beauty. I think Ralf already alluded to it. The 2% in Q3 compared to an 11% volume growth as a starting point, we've seen good conditions throughout the year in Fine Fragrance, in Consumer Fragrance and Ingredients. Beauty & Care was impacted, like Ralf was saying, on sun filters and the force majeure of our supplier in Aroma. Let me dissect that a little bit. Fine Fragrance growth is normalizing after a very strong period, but still at high single-digit growth rates in Q3. Consumer Fragrance, slightly softer in Q3 at low single-digit rates at the back of cautious behavior, predominantly at our global key accounts in the current uncertain environment. And Ingredients had a good mid-single-digit growth in Q3. So what do we expect for Q4? I think we do see similar patterns and customers are managing their year-end inventories a bit more than usual in this uncertain environment. However, if we look at the -- as I earlier said, look at the end user and retail market data, they're not that bad. They're still pretty okay. So we need to see how that plays out. But for Q4, we expect the same pattern from August and September. Remember, July was still pretty okay. August and September, we think that will go into Q4 and therefore, for Perfumery & Beauty with the sun filters sequentially improving, but we still expect some destocking in Q4 while being back on growth in '26, but not in '24 -- not in Q4 for '25. We expect for the quarter a low single digit for Perfumery & Beauty. Then a bit of color on TTH. Q3, 3%, here, against -- yet again, a high comparison of 13% volume growth. I think if you compare the numbers, you can clearly see that TTH has outperformed the market with that result, in line with a parallel good, continued step-up in EBITDA. So it's not only the top line, but it's also the leeway to an EBITDA bridge where we basically have in Q3 at 20.6%, where the yeast extract, that Ralf has alluded to, if you correct for that, it will be even above 21%. So we're on a nice trajectory there. For Q3, we've seen big accounts a bit more cautious in order patterns, especially in Asia. So this is what we see for TTH. We also here need to see that the end consumer retail that are still looking pretty solid. So we need to see how that plays out. whether it's only a destocking or a fundamental trend. But for Q4, we expect the same circumstances for August and September to move into Q4 and therefore, guide for a low single digit for Q4 in TTH. Now then a few words on HNC, a fantastic trajectory on EBITDA quality. I think we are -- for the 5 quarters in a row, we are continuing a good recovery. Here, indeed, a strong ELN, helped by product launches of HMOs. But this obviously still needs to span out. So we saw see some positive effect. But this is ramping up, and approvals take a while, then product launches need to be in the market, and then we start selling. But it's definitely helped by HMOs for ELN. Backed up by a good solid growth in Dietary Supplements. Also here, a bit more cautious behavior from our customers. But in this case, not in Asia as for TTH, but more in the U.S. And we've seen the businesses in HNC, which are U.S.-based, being impacted a little bit by the cautious behavior of our consumers and customers in North America. So also here, for Q4, similar pattern moving into Q4, and therefore, you should expect a low single digit for Q4 for HNC as well. I hope that gave a little bit of color, including your HMO question.

The next question is from Nicola Tang at Exane BNP Paribas.

I wanted to ask about Fragrance Ingredients, where you said you continue to see strong performance here. I know several of your peers have been talking about weaker conditions, including increased competition from Asian players. Is this something that you're seeing as well that it's being offset by something else that you have there? Or do you not see this increase in competition? Can you sort of help us understand the difference? And then the second question, you mentioned softer demand was mainly the global accounts in Consumer Fragrance and TTH. Is this softness solely related to ordering? Or are you also seeing a bit of softness in terms of launch activity and kind of willingness to innovate? And therefore, how should we think about sort of your pipeline and sort of top line drivers going into next year?

Yes. Thank you for those questions. And good that you ask me about the pipeline because absolutely, we don't see any changes in the pipeline. So that's also why we say we need to see how this spells out. The brief and the innovation pipeline is still full. So the number of briefs are definitely up to par. We don't see any hesitation on briefs coming in. So this is predominantly the cautious behavior on ordering at this moment. So remember, like we did in Q3, we're pretty transparent. We try to be with you, what we see in the market, and that's also what we want to do now for Q4 and for the future. But this is what we see in the ordering pattern. Briefs and innovation pipelines are still strong. Then to your question on Ingredients, well, before I answer your question, let's contextualize a little bit what we've done with Ingredients. Remember, when we merged, we had a EUR 1.1 billion ingredient part in that Perfumery & Beauty area. with Pinova not being restarted, we walked away from that more commodity-like ingredient play. We still have also optimized the Ingredients more in the industrial application area. So with Pinova and the optimization, we moved that EUR 1.1 billion more closer to EUR 800 million, a deliberate choice to be more in the top end of the ingredient market. And therefore, we walked away from commodity type molecules. Well, therefore, we do see still quite some growth. Secondly, the Chinese are moving in more in the big molecules where the economies of scale are playing. So these are molecules like menthol, citral. We're not in those. So these are the ones where we sometimes even benefit that they come because we buy some of their ingredients from China, and therefore, it helps our raw material costs. So it's a different story. It's a different game. We already anticipated on optimizing the Ingredients. Sometimes also a question from you about the terpene business. But this business, we've also closed with Pinova. We still have 13 molecules, but those are the specialty molecules, as part of the ingredients of Perfumery & Beauty, which are all biobased. So you need to compare apples with apples. So therefore, we have seen a solid mid-single-digit growth on Ingredients because we anticipated on making that product portfolio more premiumized already 1 to 2 years ago.

The next question is from Charles Eden at UBS.

Just one -- further one for me, please. Just on the EUR 90 million FX headwind you're seeing in 2025, is the exposure pretty proportionate across the divisions? Or is there a sort of outsized impact in ANH? I'm just asking because the sales and manufacturing for vitamins, et cetera. I guess, another way, what I'm asking is, how much of the EUR 90 million headwind relates to the ANH division, maybe let's put it that way?

Charles, always direct in the question. That's always helpful. Normally, we apply a bit of a rule of thumb that 2/3 is in the core and about 1/3 is in ANH. I would apply that now as well. Maybe to give a bit of context, I mean, FX swings are obviously linked to the dollar, a bit on the Swiss here. Because normally, they kind of go hand in hand, but now the spread has widened, which is causing that adverse effect. And whilst ANH doesn't have a big U.S. dollar exposure, it's more the Swiss franc, as you say. There's also the Brazilian real and the like that is more impacting that. So on the balance, let's say, take about EUR 55 million, EUR 60 million in the core business, and the balancing element in ANH as a guidance for the full year.

The next question is from Alex Alexander Sloane from Barclays Bank.

The first one, just actually going back to the outlook for the core business in Q4. Thanks for all the color there. I mean just thinking about that low single-digit organic, is that also the right kind of exit rate to be thinking about 2026? Or would that be too conservative given it sounds like in that Q4 outlook, you're embedding some kind of one-off destocking? So I guess the question is, kind of in '26, could we get closer to the 5% to 7% medium-term target that you have for the core business [ ANH ] from that low single digit? And the second one, just in terms of vitamins. Obviously, I mean, if you're not able to conclude the ANH process in the next 6 weeks. If we're thinking about 2026, is annualizing the Q4 run rate, that's implied by the new guidance, a fair assumption at this point? Or do you think that's too conservative that vitamin prices are sustainable levels where we are today?

Yes. Let me start there. So thanks for the questions, Alex. If we look at the core, I think we always want to be clear in terms of our guidance that we've done. Also if you're looking at Q4, I think Dimitri gave a good insight on the dynamics per BU and what drove that. And also looking back at Q3, where we had a good start in July, and then we've seen that weakness coming through a bit. With what we've seen now also looking a bit at October, we see that behavior of August, September translating into the fourth quarter. But with that, also visibility has reduced somewhat. We've been speaking about that as well. We have a visibility of about a month. If we look at the underlying data, and I think that is important what Dimitri highlighted as well, if you look at some of the consumer spend, if you look at the credit card spend and the like, you don't see that change in behavior at that front. So hence, also when engaging with customers, we're close to them, it's more the cautionary behavior and saying, look, we don't know exactly what's ahead of us. But in this time, looking also at where we are in the year, we're managing also carefully our ending position of the year, and everybody is slowly looking into 2026. I think in terms of translation, I wouldn't copy the exit rate of Q4 going into '26. I think to your words, that would be a bit too harsh. I think over time, the fundamentals of each of the businesses are in place. If you look at P&B, the trends are there continue to stay. I mean there's a big show going on in the Middle East where we're present as well. We see the same dynamics and good demand in that space. So all those trends are there. If you look at TTH, same dynamic, strong pipeline from a synergy perspective. We expect that to translate into '26 as well. And in HNC, we've got good, continued growth momentum and a step-up. I think we're seeing some short-term pressures, but I think it's too early to copy that into '26. And with the fundamentals in place, we're well placed in the midterm target from a midterm target position. Then maybe tilting to your questions around ANH and vitamins. As you'll appreciate, we're working on a deal, and that is our focus, and we aim to conclude that in the fourth quarter. So let's not entertain a lot of what-if scenarios. We'll focus and we'll mention something as soon as we've got something to communicate on that front.

The next question is from Martin Roediger from Kepler Cheuvreux.

Two questions. First, on the segment, Health, Nutrition & Care. You talked about ongoing recovery in Dietary Supplements, while Eye Health experienced softness because of the retailers. Can you provide some color why both develop contrary to each other? I fear that both could be adversely impacted by the worsening consumer confidence in North America. So maybe any color if Dietary Supplements could be also suffer going forward? And secondly, just a clarification question on the one-off costs in Perfumery & Beauty. I understood that you said a couple of million euros effect in Q3 due to that force majeure of the supplier. Is that issue solved now, so there is no effect anymore in Q4?

Let me take that one-off, and you take Eye Health and Dietary Supplements. So the one-off, yes, that has lifted. The force majeure was actually earlier in the year, but then it took long for the supplier to start up. And hence, we first did eat into our inventories and -- but then our production was impacted. So it's not a huge impact. It's a couple of million as on the one hand of the missed top line. At the same time, the fact that we had to delay our startup of our plant, which usually triggers a bit of idle cost. So -- but that has meanwhile lifted. So that's gone. So we shouldn't see an effect going into the fourth quarter. We need to build up stock a bit, but that shouldn't be too big of a concern on that front. So we're happy that we're back on our feet on that front. But it did have an impact in the third quarter that impacted the overall growth, hence, us calling that out. Dimitri?

Yes. Maybe a little bit on Eye Health and Dietary Supplements. So thanks for those questions. Dietary Supplements, remember, your question is possibly a bit related to the fact that we had, during COVID, the cost inflation and that people were backing down on buying Dietary Supplements because they became relatively expensive. But the cost part has come down rapidly. So I think the margin-based type of discussions which we had earlier are not there. So the cost of selling Dietary Supplements are at a normalized level. That was the issue which we encountered during COVID and post-COVID. Dietary Supplements is very strong. I think the health awareness is absolutely there. So we've seen throughout the period that Dietary Supplements is really holding with nice growth areas. Then, on Eye Health. Remember, Eye Health is an area where we invest in new products in women's health, but also in the menopause relief. So if you have any problems with menopause, then you're really call upon to buy the brand Estroven. That is really helping the growth of Eye Health. Overall, also prebiotics with Culturelle. But obviously, there, that whole cautious behavior from the retailers is impacting it. That's what we're flagging. So you can't compare Eye Health one-on-one with the Dietary Supplements, partly because of the pricing of Dietary Supplements not being impacted by the high cost energy prices earlier. So there are still products which everybody is buying. Eye Health is really into new segments and growth for new markets. But obviously, in a more cautious behavior, everybody is holding back on that a little bit. We've seen that happening in Q3. We expect that to be continued in Q4. But the fundamentals are there. I think if you look at the pipeline of what we have in terms of briefs, but also new products, we feel that this is something which will fade away over time.

The next question is from Chetan Udeshi from JPMorgan.

Can you hear me?

Yes.

I had two questions and thanks for the update on Q4 top line. I was just wondering, is there any implication on the EBITDA? Usually, you'd see the seasonal decline in P&B and TTH anywhere close to high single digit, 10% sequentially. HNC tends to be up sequentially. I mean, are you thinking any differently about the -- that seasonal changes that we usually see in Q4 EBITDA in different divisions? The second question I had was, if I'm not mistaken, you updated the tariff cost impact to EUR 150 million through third quarter. How much of that is actually coming through in third quarter numbers itself? Because you have inventory, and I suppose majority of the products sold in Q3 are coming from the stock that was produced in H1. So how much of the -- sorry, the tariff impact is yet to be seen? And how are you dealing with that? And if I can squeeze one easy one. I'm assuming you should have seen progress in working capital reduction through Q3. So any update there would be very helpful.

Yes. No, thanks for your questions. And let me get a go at it and then see whether there's anything to add from Dimitri. So with respect to your seasonal pattern, that's an easy one. That will be similar to what we've seen over the past years. So when also Dimitri gave the comment around the low single-digit outlook, that's in the comparison with prior years. So the normal seasonal effects are there. So you're absolutely right. So we -- we're referring that on a year-over-year comparison in line with prior years. Then on the tariff one. I think that's an important question, and it's good to spend a bit of time on that. When we initially called out, we had a first phase of tariffs that impacted EUR 100 million and then afterwards, when the new tariffs were imposed on Swiss and India, we lifted that up to EUR 150 million. Now if you look at that first phase of EUR 100 million, we navigated largely through that. We worked with our customers, looking at alternative supply chain movements, looked at formulations and the like. And we've been able to largely mitigate that impact fully towards the customers. And the remaining smaller part of that, we meanwhile passed through to our customers. So that first EUR 100 million is dealt with. Then that uplift to EUR 50 million, that's on the back of the latest outlook of the increase in Switzerland and India, as mentioned before. And we'll do the exact same thing. We'll again look at possibilities and options to mitigate that as much as possible. But whatever we can pass through, we've been transparent to that also to our customers, we will pass that on. So over time, we expect to navigate through that. And you're right, as part of the mitigating measure, you work with your inventories and manage that through. But as I said, we will have not an EBITDA impact from that first EUR 100 million, and we'll take the same approach working through that other EUR 50 million that is now there. And again, let's also still hope that there's space for a better world and a better deal. So let's see what it eventually will turn up to, but we'll make sure that we'll navigate through that as well. Then maybe a few comments on working capital. Working capital continues to be an area of attention. At the half year call, I called out that we are running at a bit of an elevated inventory level. Also for two reasons. On the one hand, navigating through tariff environment, but also dealing with a bit of the volatile environment. We want to make sure that we continue to supply our customers where needed. So that is something that we've been working through. We do expect that to ramp down. If you look at the moving pieces of working capital, receivables very much in line. Normally in Q3, you see a typical seasonal impact of a few days more DSO. Usually, year-end is always the best. So there's a delta of 2 to 3 years, but we will be in line with what we've realized last year. Same for payables, we're exactly fairly stable on that front, in line with our normal position of a little over 100 days. I think we're leading in terms of working capital management on that front. Inventory is -- we're carrying a little over EUR 100 million to EUR 150 million higher volume, including some higher prices. That is something that we need to work on, and that has an impact of about 1% on working capital, but we're committed to move that down over the period as well. So all in all, pleased with the performance in the third quarter, as I said, cash performance was good, and we'll continue to make sure that we have a similar performance in the fourth quarter as well.

The next question is from Eric Wilmer from Van Lanschot Kempen.

Can you hear me?

Yes, we can.

Back at the Capital Markets Day in Paris in 2024, you highlighted you want to accelerate Beauty & Care. Since then, we've seen a structural attention of [ Asian factors ]. I believe this is in terms of the Beauty division. So I was wondering regarding your stance for this business. To what extent do you think it makes sense to invest in it, or perhaps rationalize it, or perhaps even dispose it?

Yes. Thanks for that question. And let me make it very clear. We did an all segment analysis where we basically based on growth and differentiation capability, chose a few winning segments. Beauty & Care is absolutely one of those. We wanted to accelerate that growth. Let me remind you a little bit that Personal Care has sun filters, and that is basically being impacted for this year. If you go a little bit back, '23 was a fantastic year, '24 started pretty okay for sun filters as well. And customers are preparing for a good second half '24 and '25 as well. And then it moderated a little bit. That's the reason why they had a little bit too much of stock that need to be reworked. That's in that process as we speak. And the moment that they rework the stock and out of stock, they can order new sun filters where we are one of the main suppliers. So that's the sun-filter part. If you take a 5 years period, it is a fantastic market to be in. If you look at innovation pipeline and regulatory requirements, this is a place to be, and I think we're well positioned to do that. Secondly, Personal Care is not only sun filter. You have hair care, you have skin care. And let me remind you that also during that CMD, we've launched a fantastic product, which was basically attacking zombie cells on your skin, which is delaying and sometimes even bringing aging of your skin to a standstill. We're launching that in the market as we speak. and that creates quite some potential for growth. So Personal Care is not only sun filters, but even sun filters itself, it's an interesting market to play in. But if you look at our brief and pipeline, it's one of our growth areas where we're willing to invest in organically and maybe over time also inorganically.

The next question is from Artem Chubarov from Rothschild & Co. Redburn.

Hopefully, you can hear me well. First, on HMOs in China, exciting to hear about the news, but is there any way to quantify what magnitude of sales we're talking right now? I appreciate, it's still early days. And where do you see this business progressing going forward? And second, on synergies and TT&H, again, quite encouraging to see the pipeline growing to EUR 500 million right now. But would you remind us how it converts into sales? Is there any lead time we should be -- we should keep in mind? And on synergies impact in 2025, in TT&H, your volumes are up 5% year-to-date. So is there any way to quantify how much of that has come from synergies?

Thank you for those questions. Ralf will take some of the synergy parts. Good questions to give a bit of color. HMO China. So it's clearly a category where we expect that we will continue to grow to above EUR 100 million of sales levels with interesting quality of margins, obviously. Let me not, because of introduction rates today, give you a lot of numbers around it. As you can see, if it's a novel ingredient in an infant nutrition market, then everybody is waiting to see what we're going to say about it. So I really am excited about it, and I'm willing to give you all the numbers and the great stories, but I will refrain from doing that for the benefit of these unfinished. But overall, I can say this is a category where we will grow above EUR 100 million with very good margin rates. Then maybe, Ralf, a bit of color on the synergy on TTH?

Yes. No, happy. Let's start first with overall 5% volume growth indeed year-to-date on the back of 9% volume growth last year. I think we're outperforming market there, and that is because of the synergies. Synergies is contributing about 1.5% to 2% on the growth consistently every quarter. We've seen that also again into the third quarter and anticipate it should be a driver for above-market growth in the period ahead of us in TTH. Taking a step back, Artem, because I think -- I appreciate the question around the pipeline. We're very encouraged by that indeed. A bit of background, maybe relevant in a minute. So overall, we started tracking the pipeline because the lead time typically in TTH is 12 to 18 months. And to get a comfort feeling about the delivery of the synergies. Overall, at the merger, we communicated that we're going to deliver EUR 350 million of EBITDA synergies, half of that from cost, half of that from sales. The costs have been delivered by the end of the year. So we're closing out that program. We're now fully focused on delivery of the sales synergies. We needed EUR 500 million top line to do that, and 2/3 of that are allocated to TTH, where the biggest overlap and the heart of the merger is. And because of that lead time, we started tracking the pipeline and basically the win rate thereof. And you've seen the narrative change where initially from the get-go of the merger, we've been focused on the pipeline. We've then looked at, "Okay, how much of that pipeline are we actually translating into wins?" So that is something that we communicate as well. At the half year, we made good progress. At the Q3, that continues to increase as well. That's towards the EUR 175 million. So wins in the pocket. And then those wins get translated into invoice business. And as a financial, that's obviously what matters. That's when a truck leaves the warehouse, and we actually get paid for that. That's, meanwhile, EUR 150 million as well. So you've seen that nicely coming through. For the time being, we will continue to monitor and report on that pipeline development as well because it gives you a good feeling and gives you the same confidence Dimitri and myself have in our ability to deliver that synergy. Over time, we'll move to focusing on organic growth because as I said, it should just contribute to an above-market growth in TTH, and that is what we're experiencing. And once that is fully locked in and secured going forward, then at some point, we can stop talking about the pipeline. But today, it's relevant to give you the same confidence we have around our ability to deliver those.

We're approaching basically the hour. Yes. So let's have one other questionnaire before we run out of time. So operator, who has the last questions?

The final question is from Georgina Fraser at Goldman Sachs.

Do we need to sing for you?

Sorry?

We've got some inside information that it's your birthday.

That's right. Yes, birthday twins.

[indiscernible]

Congratulations.

Thank you so much. I appreciate that. So for my birthday treat, the question is, you talked about Fine Fragrance normalizing growth, but still growing high single digits. I'm sure you're aware and have analyzed a market leader saw accelerating growth in Fine Fragrance. Would love what your interpretation of is in the diverging trends in the Fine Fragrance performance of the market leader and yourselves? And what are you doing to catch up?

Yes. Thanks for that question. And indeed, let's go back on Fine Fragrance over the last years, we've delivered around a 6% CAGR growth. And I think that's in line with the mid-single digit. We're pretty happy with that. I think what you need to understand, and I think we've done that several times, is that P&B is Fine Fragrance, Consumer Fragrance, Ingredients and Beauty & Care. And I think we have a different portfolio with a larger ingredient part to it, which, by the way, is a deliberate choice to build a business model that is not only depending on creation, come up with great briefs, but also have it backed up by innovation in Ingredients. We feel that, that long term is a far more stronger and more sustainable strategy going forward. We need to invest in that. We have tuned our Ingredients to that, and we believe that, that business model -- that operating model is something for the future. Secondly, we have a different methodology on how we report hyperinflation FX. I think we mentioned that a couple of times. So let's be careful if we compare apples with apples. And last but not least, I think it's clear that we are in the mid-pack of fragrances. So we're happy with it. But we're not outperforming, in sharp contrast to TTH, where we are outperforming the market. So we are working on outperforming the market on the fragrances from being in a good position. You know that in terms of portfolio, we will continue to work on the differentiation ingredients, which will take time to really differentiate that self throughout the chain, but it will work out for us going forward. Secondly, you've seen that there's a lot of geographical growth. We are bumping that up as we speak. I think you're referring to people who make a lot of sales in the Middle East. We've also seen that. So we're also beefing up our presence. Our [ President -- I don't remember ], which now is there, as we speak on a great fair. But we also need to be aware that we also have made a strategic choice not to enter all segments in the Middle East. So we entered more in the high end, in the prestige part because we also feel that, that for the longer term is something which fits us well also in terms of briefs and pipeline and how we collaborate with our customers. So I think we're in the pack, but we are doing everything we could to outperform on the longer term.

This concludes the Q&A session. I will now hand back to Mr. Huizing.

Yes. Thank you, operator. Before we finish, Dimitri, do you want to make a few closing remarks?

Yes, respecting time, let me keep it brief. Thanks, Dave. Let me sum it up. Our key strategic end markets in our core business units are demonstrating strong fundamentals. We do see end use and retail data keeping up. This positions us well for a strong growth with our unique portfolio, was highlighted a little bit in terms of the business model, ingredients plus creation together based on science-based innovation with a broad geographic footprint. We're fully committed to deliver on all items that we have under our control. That's reflected also in a step-up over EUR 300 million in our EBITDA on a comparable basis, and we remain focused on implementing and executing all aspects of our strategic agenda. We're making quite progress as we are building for the future. With that, back to you, Dave, to close.

Yes. Thank you, Dimitri. And that brings us, of course, at the end of today's conference. Let me thank everybody for attending today's call on this very busy day for most of you, with a lot of people reporting. And as always, please do not hesitate to reach out to Investor Relations for any remaining questions you have. And with that, I hand it back to the operator.

This concludes today's call. Thank you, everyone, for joining. You may now disconnect.