Ducommun Incorporated (DCO) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

We'll start our next presentation here. I'm Noah Poponak. I'm the aerospace and defense analyst here at Goldman. And this session is going to be with Ducommun. With us from the company is the CEO, Steve Oswald. Steve, thanks so much for being with us.

Absolutely, happy to be here.

Steve is going to work through a presentation here for the first 10 minutes or so, and then we'll jump into questions. If any of you have any questions, raise your hand any time. Thanks so much.

Well, thank you, Noah. Good morning, everyone. Thanks for joining us this morning. I'm going to go over a little bit on the company first. That's a first time presenting at Goldman Sachs. And so I want to thank Noah and the team for having to comment on myself in and look forward to our discussion. You just see at the top there, this is our 175th year in business. So we're the oldest continuous company in California. We're pretty proud of that. It was started as a general store in 1849 by Charles L. Ducommun. So we had a wonderful year of celebration, and we had our best year in our history. So we're very proud of that. Just a little bit about the company. Top left, you can see our LTM through Q3 on the revenue side, our EBITDA margins and our backlog. We're still a shade towards defense. Coming out of COVID, we leaned heavy into our Defense business, obviously, with commercial being down, but that's starting to moderate a bit. We have proprietary content. That includes not only our engineered products, which I'll talk about, but also includes our Manufacturing Services businesses where we have trade secrets such as our Titanium Operations and all the things that we do at Ducommun. Commercial aerospace, I know that's -- everybody has a big hope ahead for Boeing, and we certainly do as well. We have a very good mix on narrow-body. We're volume people. Volume is good for DCO, good for our shareholders. We also have a nice franchise on business jets and wide-bodies. Top right there, you can see the many things we're on, pretty self-explanatory. We go across really everything in aerospace, defense. We're probably a little lighter on space, but we continue to work that area. You see our customer base. And we primarily are a Tier 1, so we deal directly. Even though we're a small cap, we generally are dealing directly with the leadership of those customers listed. How we go to market or how we sort of explain our story? We have electronic systems and structural systems. You can see the revenue there, the EBITDA margins for both businesses. On the left, we do a lot of things that are -- I call it kind of hard to do. So we do ruggedize wire harnesses for NASA and other types of customers. We do very complex circuit cards for missiles. We have a big missile and radar franchise, radar just coming up. Do a lot of things on box builds. The other thing you'll see there is our Engineered Product businesses such as Lightning Protection. So the world leader in lightning protection for all aircraft, both defense and commercial aerospace, motion control businesses. And to the right, you can see our Structural Systems business. This is a lot of legacy to Ducommun, but things that I have purchased along with my team, such as magnetic seals, ammunition handling systems and you can see aerodynamic enhancement products. So we built -- and I'll get into that now. So we built a very good franchise for engineered products, and I think that's a big part of the story as we go forward. Just to look back here, I started with the company in January of 2017. So I came from private equity. Before that, I had a large -- a big -- or many years in large cap companies such as UTC and GE. Pretty proud of our market cap. We've had a really nice run. People say, "Okay, what's left?" And we can talk about that with Noah, but we think there's a lot left for investors and for our company. Revenues, you can see adjusted EBITDA. Our margins are, I think, continue to go higher, we'll talk about that in the Q&A. So overall, I think despite COVID, despite the MAX crashes, despite lots of -- some drama there, I think we've had a really good run. The other message here for today, and we'll talk about that, is our Vision 2027 strategy. This is something I put together sort of coming out of COVID sort of mid-2022. I finally felt like we could make some assumptions about the world. Most of the assumptions are correct other than Boeing. So Boeing was the assumption that didn't come through. We thought we'd be much further along, and that's unfortunately not the case yet. Vision 2027, you can see on the left here, net revenues, up to $950 million plus. I think our margin story is excellent. We'll talk about that with Noah. We've had a nice run on margins. And I think the 18% by 2027 is in the cards as well as the adjusted OI of [ 13% ]. You ask me how we're going to do that? Well, we're building scale in our Commercial Aerospace and Defense businesses, strategic acquisitions. A lot of things we do at Ducommun are price-based. So we're very strategic about our pricing and very thoughtful about that. We are doing facility consolidations and we continue to drive cost reductions and better investments. So I think overall, the Vision 2027, as I end 2024 with all of you in December, is pretty much we're on track, and we're very happy about it. Here is one of the most important slides as well as our portfolio of Engineered Products. So this is something that I -- when I came in 2027, I told my Board, I said, "We're not going to go anywhere unless we build this part of the business. The other businesses are nice, but these are the businesses that are going to be great for us and great for our investors." So if you look across those different product lines, a lot have been acquisitions. I inherited a few. So if you think about Loar Holdings, you think about HEICO, you think about TransDigm, this is what we're trying to build within DCO. And I think we've had a good run, and we have more to come. When I started, we had revenues of right around 9% of Engineered Products, and we're over 20% already. Our commitment to investors is 25% by 2027. We think that's going to be surpassed. So we've got some good work already accomplished there. And our aftermarket mix as well continues to grow. And this is a great story for investors and for the company. We are taking costs out of our Manufacturing Services businesses. You can see up there, we are -- when the time is right and necessary, we are closing factories. We don't like to close factories unless it's something we feel is necessary and we've made those decisions, and we will work to lower costs. Parts of the U.S., especially our California facility was very, very high cost. So that was a win for the company. We are moving to Mexico. I know Mexico is big in the news now, right? So I know we'll talk about that a little bit with our new administration. I will tell you that there is some concern there, but the other good thing about DCO is we're a U.S. manufacturer, okay? So we're at 96% revenue of our company is in the U.S. So we are a U.S. manufacturer. We have a little bit in Mexico, and that's it. So we'll have to find our way with that. We're doing great work with Boeing and Airbus. My team was just over at Airbus this week for their major supplier meeting for what we do for them, the titanium work, had a great meeting. We think Airbus will eventually get to 1,000 planes a year. I know that's a big number, but I think they continue to put in assembly lines and being an old manufacturing person, that's the first thing you got to do. You got out to have the assembly lines and everything else has to follow suit on that. So I think a good job on Airbus. Boeing as well. I mentioned this on the call on Q3 that we did a big share shift and I'll talk more about that in the first quarter call, but -- or the fourth quarter call, but we're doing some very nice work on 787. We've a big share shift from a competitor. So more to come there. Our defense businesses, we have offloading, which is a big deal for us on the left, building up our radar franchise. RTX is putting a lot of their, I say their critical radar circuit cards into our facility in Tulsa and that's a big win for us. SPY-6, next-generation jammer you might know about. And then on the right there, you can see the other work we're doing. So I think all good things ahead for us for defense. I talked a little bit about manufacturing services. This is the other part of the engineered product story than we have this. So we do -- we're the world leader in titanium outside Toulouse, circuit cards, interconnects, have a great Stretch Form and Chem Mill business. VersaCore is a product that we developed, a composite. So a very nice services business that we continue to build. And then finally, just -- and we'll speak to Noah in a minute here some of our key investment highlights. We continue to build our proprietary product businesses, driving cost. We've got more to do on M&A, which we're excited about. We are a Tier 1 majority of our business. I think we're eventually going to be in great shape with Boeing, both on 787 and the MAX. But we keep hoping and it keeps not materializing. So hopefully, in 2025, Kelly and his team will pull together. We've got a good Defense business, only getting better. We try to build a moat the best we can around our Manufacturing Services business, and we try to do the right thing with ESG. And that's it. So I will leave it there, and Noah?

So seeing you today and hearing you talk about what you're doing at the company. I mean I kind of wanted to just get an update from you on where you feel you are in your transformation process. It's a hard question to ask without it being super high level and encompassing multiple things. But you've been at the company, I guess, 7, 8 years now, and you have the Vision 2027. And it seems to me that you're high-grading the assets, more engineered products, more aftermarket. There was some latent pricing and there's cost. And those are maybe, I guess, the 3 main levers. So I guess, is that -- are those the focus areas, which ones still have the most room to go? And I guess, how do you kind of manage the literal, just day to day? Like what are you doing day-to-day on each of those items to move them forward?

Yes. Well, great. Thank you for the question. First, I'd just tell you that after 6 years, I finally have the right team. So I think that's important because I'm on my third CFO, and I think we have our right guy now. So I think it's important for investors to know is that we have a very strong team. We're a very tight team. So I think that's a square one for me as a leader and is running the business. As far as my tenure at DCO, yes, it's almost -- it's heading into another year and I mean my view is that we still have a lot to go. And I really think it's much more around building our Engineered Products and Aftermarket businesses. I mean, we really -- if you look at our -- the slide I showed you, I mean, we've been very successful with our acquisitions. We have the right formula. We tend to be -- folks like to sell to us because we tend to be -- we're not going to change the brand, we're not going to consolidate facilities to any extent. Families are worried about that. We buy a lot from families. We buy a lot from sons and daughters of founders that have passed away. I mean, those are the kind of companies we find, and we have a really good track record of winning those because it's hard. It's hard. So I think that on the trajectory of the business, I feel very, very good about -- we're just -- we're probably 30%, 40% because this Engineered Product story is going to be the next story for the next 5 to 10 years. We have Manufacturing Services businesses. They're nice businesses. They generate good income. They generate other things, but -- and we'll continue to ride that up with Boeing and Airbus and we'll consolidate facilities, and we'll do all the things very positively. But I think that it's early, for me at least. If we didn't have that Engineered Product story, I don't know if I have -- we have a tough conversation.

Right. There's only so much you can do on pricing, costs.

Exactly. I mean...

There's a lot of room on changing the assets. I guess, how much of that are you doing organically versus through acquisition? And how hard is it to do? I mean on the -- I guess, on the one hand for me, when I see you talk about TransDigm and HEICO and those companies have engineered products or proprietary sole and dual-source percentages that are not far from 100%. You guys' target is 20%, 25%, maybe 30% eventually. So part of me feels like why isn't that higher? But I guess on the other hand, it's hard to break into those. So how do you break into it?

Yes, it's hard. I mean lobbies are crowded now. When I was -- in 2017 when I was talking about it, there wasn't as many people talking about it. Now when I read from my colleagues and other -- my peer groups and everybody kind of has the same idea about engineered products and aftermarket. So it is tougher, that's for sure. But to me, it's over 50% of our organic growth for these engineered product companies we're doing right now. So that's a really positive thing. I mean we're -- magnetic seals and all these other things that we bought are really flourishing. We are driving pricing. So that's an exciting part. And then the other part is we're out there hustling, trying to find new things to buy. And we have our formula. There will be no surprises. I mean we're going to basically buy the stuff that you saw on that slide, okay? So there's going to be no -- nothing like, "Oh, why do they buy a circuit card company or why did they do this?" No, we're very committed to that. And that's -- if we can ever get to 40% to 50% with our multiple, you know what I mean, and show that type of margin, and I think that's where I'm heading.

Are you doing any of it organically, just internal R&D? Or is it almost entirely acquisitions?

No, that's a very good question. We are doing internal R&D. So for instance, we're developing new magnetic seals. We are developing new ammunition, chutes and nobles. So we have real companies with real engineers. When we bought them, they were smaller. We come in, we put capital in. They work for us. They get the Ducommun model. Sometimes you have to coach up some of these leaders because they've worked for the son and daughter. And I mean, they're not used to working in the corporate environment. So we've got a lot of success, a lot of success. Yes.

You mentioned the tariff point. So let's talk about that, I guess. How far along are you in the Guaymas move? And I guess, yes, as a CEO, how are you thinking about it?

Yes. Look, I was at AIA, which is the Aerospace Industry Association on the Board of Governors. I was there 2 weeks ago in Washington for our meetings. We have it twice a year. And I'll just tell you everybody that comes in and nobody knows what's going to happen. It's like, no one knows. I would tell you, just our Mexican operation is 4% of our revenue this year. So 4% is not 40%. So no one really knows. We did expand our Mexican facility because we have great productivity down there. We do a lot of hand work on MAX spoilers and we do a lot of hand work on the Tomahawk cabling, those types of things, and that's where we want to put those things. So we're -- there's a little bit of uncertainty right now. But I will tell you, as I read about [ Barnes ] and other places is that we are 96% a U.S. manufacturer. So I think that's a big positive for us.

Do you save more on the cost side in that move than a 25% increase in raw material?

It might be a photo finish on that. You know, 25% is a big number.

But I guess, the cost savings is already in your margins or is it...

No, it's not yet. No, we haven't started yet now. Because remember, just on this Tomahawk move, which is a massive $50 million order, these Tomahawks and we're selling them now to the Japanese and the Australians and we've kind of let that weapon out to other allies. That's -- it's all going to be done now. We're starting next year in Guaymas, 17 cables. It's a big number. And the spoilers, we did in Monrovia. Half of that is all going down into Guaymas now. So I mean, -- at the end of the day, the productivity in Mexico is about 30% higher than U.S.

Okay. So if we take the snapshot of where your margins are right now, and this is 4%, 5% of what you do, and the cost savings could be about equal to the numbers that are being tossed around for tariffs. It's unlikely that it's huge incremental headwind to your margin.

Yes. Yes, absolutely. Now, whatever I heard in Washington 2 weeks ago, and I'm not losing sleep over it. Am I concerned about it? Yes. But with the materiality and what we're doing down there, it's not anything I'm uptight about.

And then maybe talking about pricing. I mean, a lot of times we see these -- well, there's been other transformational stories within the aerospace supply chain, especially if you can look at aftermarket, where there's pricing power and where a good operator like yourself comes in and discovers that there's a latent pricing that had not been fully taken advantage of, for a long time. And then if you can renew contracts and flow that through and it's 100% incremental margin to the bottom line, that's really powerful. Are you finding that? Did you already find that? Is that still ahead of you?

It's probably 50-50, okay? So one thing we do, and I'm sure you'll hear this from my peers, CEOs, whatever. Generally when you buy a small company that's family-owned or that's -- it's undermanaged. And one of the things undermanaged is pricing, okay? They really -- there's not the sophistication level on pricing. So generally when you buy a company and like we did this with the companies that we bought, there's latent pricing in there that you immediately taken the first year or 2, and we've done that. The one thing in getting back to HEICO and TransDigm, when you take a look at our Lightning Diversion strip company, I mean we're a 90% market share in the world, okay? So that's a good example of when you think about us and think about the others, is that we're sole sourced and we take advantage of that each and every year.

Okay. And the 50-50 is, in terms of how much was available and how much you...

Exactly, yes. Exactly, yes.

In your Aerospace business, you've talked about increasing content 787. Maybe detail what was behind that and how much market share gain opportunity is there?

Sure, sure. So we have a fairly large titanium operation that we basically buy titanium sheets. And we hot form them or we put nitrogen in them. It's a very -- it's for nacelles. It's for different parts of the plane. Obviously, a plane wants titanium because it's strong and it's lightweight, right? So there's a big titanium play there. And it's very hard to do. So you have smaller companies who take on big contracts in France, for instance, and Spirit and these other folks get involved with them and then they place the orders and they can't the parts, okay? So that's where we step in because we're pretty much 100% on time to Airbus. We're pretty much 100% on time to Boeing. We're -- the way we structure our company is that we have a site that might be 150 or 200 people, and all they do is titanium every day, right? So we now have a circuit card business in the corner. We have the centers of excellence. So as you know, we're not -- really any new planes coming other than 777X, which we really don't have much interest in. So we're all about building the share on these programs. And that's a big story for us because we can demonstrate our value and then gain share from competitors. I think that's the main story there.

Okay.

Yes.

Maybe it would be helpful to talk about what -- how you've been shipping to Boeing as they have had their challenges and the strike. What did they have you do on the MAX? What are you shipping to on the MAX at the moment? And I guess, what's your view on how quickly Boeing can ramp back up as we move into a 2025?

Yes. Boeing has been a real challenge for DCO. I mean we'd be $20 million, $25 million ahead right now if I looked at -- when we talk about latent revenue. I mean, there's -- and that's all coming, okay? But unfortunately, we've been told many, many times about this and that and it has never come through and okay, that's in the past, right? But there's a couple of issues that we're going to see now. So we're going to -- we're definitely going to see a better job by them. I hope, 2025, but if you go and you look at -- you go to Wichita and you look at Spirit and you look at all the fuselages that are stacked up, okay, there used to be like 90 of them maybe, now that's like 150 a year. You know what I mean. So Spirit didn't slow down building fuselages. So there's going to be some destocking and Spirit is part of our customer base for titanium and structures. So I see that -- I'm hoping that Boeing could break 32%, 33%, 35% next year and then hopefully get through the destocking. So that's our hope for MAX, but it's going to be a tough year next year for MAX. I don't think -- I think 2026, I mean Kelly Ortberg has got a lot to do. Thank god, the strike is over. But for me, it's all about culture, it's all about driving the right behaviors and what, 40% of the people or 38% of people voted against the -- so there's a lot of unhappy people in the weeds, you know what I mean. So -- but the bright spot, though, for Boeing is 787 and as you know, you probably fly in 787. It's a real bright spot. The book is solid through 2027. And they're going to finally, I think, get through all these repairs on a bunch of planes they made, and I'll have 2 assembly lines going for all new builds, hopefully by the middle of next year. And that will be a way because if the Boeing gets to 10 on the 787 a month, that's real money for Ducommun.

On the MAX, what were you shipping to before the strike?

Oh, we were in the 20s -- 22%, 24%. And I have to tell you that we're on a pull system at Spirit, and that's over 50% of our MAX, right? So we're like -- because we make everything in Kansas, they're close, we're big suppliers there. We shipped direct too. But a lot of the things, [ scuff plates ] and parts in the missiles and everything and skins now. We just picked up the skins, which are going to start now, the fuselage skins. So we're about 22%, 24%, but you would get a pull for a month of spirit at like 32% or 33% and then you get a pull of like 20%. It's very...

A little different. And I guess, if Boeing and Spirit were pulling 20% to 30% kind of all of last year when they weren't producing that all last year and then there was a strike. As you alluded to, there's been a decent amount of inventory built in the system. Are you guys as Ducommun able to track even within a range, how much of your product is in channel that has to be destocked before you would then be just shipping to rate again? Or is it...

We have a decent -- we don't have a great sense. We have a decent sense. I mean, we were generally...

What's your sense in terms of like how many months it would take to destock it.

I think the MAX destocking is going to be at least 6 months. I think 6 months is right, I think. Look, when Seattle was on strike, Spirit was still building. Because they were like, what if we let people go again, there'll be a disaster.

So maybe Boeing works its way back to 30% by middle to later parts of next year, but they probably still keep pulling from the supply chain in that window of time because they're not going to send you to 0.

No, absolutely not. No.

So then it seems like if you're a supplier to the MAX, your revenue is probably down in 2025 on that?

It's going to be flattish proportionately. Yes. It's going to be flat. That's how we see the world right now.

Okay. But then the rest of Aerospace original equipment grows?

At some level, yes. Hopefully, 787 will get more life and everything else. So we're hoping for that. But yes, it's -- I think next year is a transition year.

Okay, on the MAX?

On the MAX -- just on the MAX. Yes, I think that's -- I'm a little more hopeful than that probably. But -- and looking at it today, it's probably a transition year sort of flattish fortunately.

Yes. No. I mean it is what it is. Okay. And then on your defense business, maybe talk about that in general and what kind of growth you see in the medium term? I know there's a lot of cross currents. We have outlays were catching up to authorization. Now authorizations sort of flat, maybe there's DOGE, maybe there's not. You have a lot of your specific programs, some new wins that are ramping? I don't know if you have -- what's rolling off? How does that all boil up to a medium-term defense outlook?

Well, I think overall, it's good. I mean, one of the things that I mentioned this in the presentation is that we're much bigger now in radar than we used to be, okay? We used that really -- a real franchise in missiles. We still do. But now we're really picking up on with SPY-6. The SPY-6 is sort of the new radar for the Navy, all right? So it does everything, okay? It has incoming, it can send things out for counter attacks, and it's going to be going on most of all the Navy ships in the Pacific for the Chinese threat. So -- and that is sort of the crown jewel of RTX radar. So that's going to be a big thing for us going forward. So radars, you see the jammer here. We still -- we like our fixed wing even though the only one that we talked about this on the call is the F-18, as that winds down, that hurt us a bit, okay? Not anything substantial, but maybe $5 million a quarter headwind. And we're rolling through that. Now most of that is already in the P&L. So -- but I don't -- the DOGE or whatever the initiatives are, we'll have to just -- that's something I can't really get my head around yet. I know there'll be things happening, I'm sure. But I think overall defense products are -- have a little bit of a moat around them, okay? We make things that are hard. We make things that -- it's kind of tough to move, and that's what we want. And we built the company that way so that we can have pricing power at some level every time we go see the customer.

Okay. You've had a lot of work with Raytheon. I think on the last call, you're talking more work with Northrop. I mean you're still relatively small in terms of your revenue as a percentage of these companies. Are there significant market share gain opportunities where you can grow your defense business regardless of?

Yes, that's a great question. I was just at Northrop Grumman 2 weeks ago in Baltimore. They have a major electronic radar systems. So that's the radar system of the F-35 for the GATR, for Mesa, for all these different products, and it couldn't have went better. I mean we really have a strong relationship with Northrop, a lot of trust. We do a lot of things for them now and that's continuing to grow. So we're very excited. Like when I came in here a long time ago, I was looking at our Raytheon business, and it was like this. Everybody else was very low. And I said, what are we doing here? I mean, we need to build scale at some of these other major primes. And I think we finally kind of broke the code and people say, "Well, how long does it take, Steve?" I said, it takes a couple of years. It doesn't -- it's not just 6 months. So we've been working on this for a couple of years. They were our second-largest customer in Q3 in revenue, Northrop. So that's real. It's not just something I wish for. So that's actually starting to grind higher. And I think L3Harris, Lockheed is always tough, but we do what we can there. So there's -- I think there's other primes that we can continue to work on. But Northrop was really the one where I feel like we have the best cultural fit with DCO as well. I mean Northrop will pay you for value, and not everybody will.

Okay. All right. We have just a few minutes left here. Why don't I see if there's -- yes, a question upfront here.

[ Lloyd Connor ], Connor Capital. You mentioned earlier that Mexico is about 30% productivity gain when you manufacture down there. Can you give us an idea, is that labor and other things? And then the second part of the question is, in your 2027 target -- margin target, how much of that is based on manufacturing in Mexico at higher productivity?

Good question. The 30% is pretty much all labor. I hate to say it. Just let's say, we had a fire in Mexico, okay? We had a fire during COVID. That was another thing I had to deal with, okay? And so I've moved all the work from Mexico up to California. And I said, okay, let's -- because we had to do it, right? It was a short test. So when our guys came back, we said, "What's going on?" They said, "We can't make any money." So what do you mean you can't make any money? It's too expensive. The productivity is 30% lower. So then, we built a new plant and we got everything back there now. So we're good that we have the right systems now from fire prevention, whatever. So not to worry there, but it's all about labor, unfortunately. That's where we are. As far as Mexico and this plant is very little for the 18%. I mean it's maybe 50 basis points, 25 basis points, I mean, not anything where -- the big thing for the 18% was the closing of the factories in California. It's a big deal and Berryville, moving the work down there, which would get some arbitrage, right, not only -- but material, it's usually 60% of the game. The materials, the connectors and the circuit cards and the cabling and whether you're doing it in Mexico or we try to do something locally, you really don't have that much opportunity unfortunately. I wish we did. I wish we could buy things that were cheaper and I have to go to Amphenol places, but that's what specked in. So we have to do that. But there's some, but nothing -- not a big rock. So thank you for the question. Yes.

Maybe just to wrap up on what you alluded to -- we talked about your M&A platform. You alluded to the -- the busier the hobbies. Is the pipeline right now more robust or less than 6, 12 months ago? Are valuations any different? Does a more deal friendly administration matter? How do you expect that to all unfold?

Well, look, multiples remain high, you would think they would be, right, because these are businesses that are highly valued and so -- and it's competitive. So not crazy high, but high enough. So we're sort of in the $120 million, $100 million, maybe $150 million to stretch sort of like deal levels. So at least from the administration standpoint, I mean, if we do a deal at $80 million or $90 million, that won't be reviewed. So that's not an issue for DCO. So that's positive. Either way, how this thing turns, I'm sure it will be more friendly. But it's -- the deal flow has been good. It hasn't been great, I would say this year. It's been good. And we continue to stay aggressive. My CFO, who I mentioned earlier, he's also running corp dev for us, and he's been with me for 10-plus years, and he's the one that did all those deals. So we still have all the continuity of the team. We still have the recipe. We still have the process very involved when I have to be because, again, when you're buying these small companies and this is their dad's legacy or something, okay? They want to sell to someone that they're not going to lay off Jim who has been with dad for 40 years. They just don't want that, and I wouldn't want that either. So we have a little bit of an edge there versus a big private equity firm and maybe other things because we do compete with Arcline and other places, we're in there with that type of level. so. But anyway, it's -- I think it's all a good story and we're excited for the future.

Awesome. We're just out of time now. So why don't we wrap up there? Thank you so much for being with us.

Great to be. Thank you for listening. Appreciate it. Thank you.