eClerx Services Limited (ECLERX) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hi, everyone. Good evening, participants. Welcome to the Q2 and Full Year FY '24 Earnings Call of eClerx Services Limited. Please note that this webinar will be recorded. To take us through the results and to answer your questions, we have with us the top Management of eClerx, represented by Kapil Jain, Managing Director and Group CEO; PD Mundhra, Co-Founder and Executive Director; Anjan Malik, Co-Founder and Director; Srinivasan Nadadhur, Chief Financial Officer. We will start the call will brief opening remarks by Kapil, followed by Srinivasan. After that, Kapil will take us through the strategy for the platform, and then we will open the floor for Q&A. As usual, I would like to remind you that anything that is said on this call that gives any outlook for the future or which can be construed as forward-looking statement must be viewed in conjunction with the risk and uncertainties that we face. These risks and uncertainties are included, but not limited to what we have mentioned in the prospectus filed with SEBI and subsequent annual reports, which you can find on our website. With that said, I will now hand the call over to Kapil. Over to you, Kapil.

Thank you, Asha, and good evening, everyone. Let me start by giving you some highlights of our performance in FY '24 Q4 and for the full year. We delivered a revenue growth in USD terms of 1.5% quarter-on-quarter in Q4, reaching operating revenue of USD 91.9 million, driven by growth in our customer operations and financial markets business. This is a strong performance, bearing in mind the slowdown in developed markets and the loss of one of our large clients in Personiv, whose revenue had to be replaced in this quarter. For the full year, our revenue in USD terms grew by 6.4% year-on-year to USD 353.9 million, exceeding the industry average in INR terms operating revenue for Q4 was INR 7,665 million, up 1.8% quarter-on-quarter and INR 29,255 million for the full year, up 10.5% over FY '23. There is a sequential decline in margin in this quarter, primarily going to our investments in strengthening our sales and delivery capabilities. For the full year, we delivered an EBITDA of 28.1%. Net profit for FY '24 was up 5.1% to INR 5,115 million. As in the previous few quarters, growth this quarter has been led by our customer operations and our financial markets business. We have seen exceptional growth in our large clients in these businesses. Our BPaaS business has grown by 4% year-on-year $86 million. This has primarily come from the Financial Markets business. Our Analytics and Automation business at $65 million has shown an 8% year-on-year decline because business challenges faced by some of our clients and reduction in discretionary spending. New deal ACV for the year was USD 91 million, up 10% from FY '23, which was USD 82 million. Our pipeline is healthy across all 3 businesses as we get into FY '24/'25. I'd like to give some commentary around our 3 businesses: financial markets, CO and digital. Our Financial Markets and the CO had a good Q4. We saw strong demand around our compliance office, client life cycle management from several clients. We also saw an increase in the transaction models. And we have also started providing our KYC compliance services in all of our delivery center in the U.S. The customer operation business showed strong quarter-on-quarter growth driven by existing clients, and some of the growth was due to higher transaction volumes driven by seasonality and supporting key client strategic initiatives, which required us to ramp up and ramp down on a very short notice. And we are well equipped to meet that demand from the clients. Digital, it was a soft quarter for Digital with clients starting slowly to their 2024 budget allocations and renewals. We expect momentum to make a little bit in Q1, but overall environment continues to be cautious for the digital business. Many of you would be interested in knowing what we are doing on Gen AI, as I have spoken in a few previous quarterly earnings call as well. And I like to cover it briefly. We continue to have discussions and pilots with several clients, primarily around Content Operations, Care Operations and Insights on Demand. In Content Operations, for example, we have [indiscernible] automated content image, audio and video. In insights, the work is mainly on generating real time insights and data analysis using conversational bots to vary across structured and unstructured datasets. Gen AI is also embedded in our tools such as compliance manager, for KYC, market 360, for digital share analytics and Tech360 for fintech operations. Also, we welcome 3 senior leaders in the markets. Manish Sharma has joined us as a Chief Revenue Officer based in New York. Manish has an impressive track record or driving growth, winning strategic deals and enhancing client relationships. He even played a pivotal role in driving our growth agenda in expanding our capabilities. Karolina has joined us as the Chief Marketing Officer. She is based out on New York and will be responsible for the overall development and execution of the global brand, marketing and PR strategy. She has spent over 20 years in B2B marketing and brings a level of experience from large global enterprises. Michael Hutchison has joined [indiscernible] our customer operations business. In his career Michael has demonstrated exceptional leadership, strategic oversight and innovation. At eClerx, Michael will oversee the customer operations client portfolio with a focus on sustaining organic growth and fostering new client acquisitions. As you would see that we had 3 senior leaders in the market. With addition of these 3 senior leaders and me also sitting in the market, we have expanded our leadership presence in the markets to 7. We continue to invest in sales and delivery capability. We are also taking up additional space in 3 cities we operate. These investments will result in an impact of about 400 bps to EBITDA. So we are raising the rate for full year EBITDA to 24% to 28%. Additionally, I would like to touch upon recent recognitions we have received. Our AI-powered Digital Shelf Analytics Platform, Market360 was awarded bronze and then E-commerce Germany Award for Best Analytics and AI Solution. We also won 2 Dual Gold Asia Pacific's Stevie Award, 1 for Innovation and Human Resources Management Planning and Practice, and the second for innovative use of technology in human resources. These awards are testament to our focus on knowledge management and innovative use of technology. Finally, I'll try to thank all the clients for their business and their confidence in us. I'd also like to thank my senior leadership team and all the employees of eClerx for their relentless focus on execution and [ client Services ]. Thank you. Now I'll hand it over to Srini, who will give more details on our financial performance.

Thank you, Kapil. Hello, everyone. I hope I'm audible and clear. I will take you through a bit more detail on financial performance for Q4 and the year. As Kapil mentioned, operating revenue was USD 91.9 million. Sequentially, revenue grew 1.5% in USD terms, 1.4% in constant currency terms. Operating revenue was up 6.4% in USD terms and 5.9% in constant currency terms. Total revenue for Q4 was INR 7,896 million, up 2.1% sequentially. Full year total INR revenue was INR 29,910 million, up 10.2% over FY '23. Coming to margin metrics. Full year EBITDA was INR 8,403 million, up 3.8%. Full year PAT was INR 5,115 million, up 4.6%. Other income was INR 230 million, mostly due to higher investable base. Our delivery costs and SMB costs. So if you recall, commentary in the last earnings call, we had mentioned a reclass of about 90 bps from delivery to SMB. Now if you really take that out and you factor with impact of reclass, an apples-to-apples comparison of Q3 versus Q4 is that SMB is not flat, but it's actually up 90 bps. And delivery costs are not up 160 bps, but they are up by about 70 bps. Both these increases are because of the investment to strengthen our teams in delivery and in onshore business [indiscernible]. There is a 50 bps increase in G&A, primarily because of an increase in license to subscription costs and also in employee transfer costs. On the key business metrics slide, top 10 client concentration has gone up, partly because of the rollout of the client in Personiv, which was outside the top 10, and partly because of the strong growth in existing clients in customer operations and financial models. The seat count has reduced because we gave up an office in [indiscernible]. But as Kapil mentioned, we will be adding [indiscernible] Mumbai, Pune, Chandigarh over the next few months and seat count will increase. DSO is 84 days, higher than the previous quarter, but in line with Q4 of last year. Headcount, [indiscernible] headcount is up by about 270 people over the previous quarter, while attrition is up from 16% to 22%, it is still some way away from the range that we usually operated in. We have about INR 11 crores of cash on our books and in line with the usual practice of returning excess cash to shareholders. We have announced buyback of INR 385 crores and a dividend of INR 1, subject to shareholder approvals. A couple of facility related updates. We opened a new office in Switzerland. We will be able to serve clients in that geography. And I also mentioned that we are adding space in Mumbai, Pune, Chandigarh and these additional spaces go live in about 6 months. And finally, just to conclude, I would like to touch upon our work in the areas of CSR and ESG. So as far as our CSR program, we partnered with Sampark to support education, employability and skill development for tribal communities. Over 3,800 children are the beneficiaries of this program. Through our partnership with Lighthouse Communities Foundation, we have provided foundational skills to over 2000 individuals from marginalized sections of society. We also continue to make progress on ESG initiatives across our India offices with the share of electricity from renewable sources has increased from 32% to 68% over the last year. And we have been awarded the bronze medal by EcoVadis, which places us in the top 35% of sustainability reporting across 1000 plus companies. Thank you, everyone. With this, I conclude my prepared remarks. I'm sure many of you keen to hear the firm’s strategy. So, I will hand it over back to Kapil. He will take about, I guess, 20-25 minutes to share firm’s strategy, and after that we will open the floor for questions.

Thanks, Srini. So I think a lot of you have asked me this question in the previous earnings call, and it's almost a year since I took over this role. And in the last 12 months, I have met several clients and visited all our delivery centers and I touched upon almost 70%, 80% of our employees. And I think from whatever I have gathered and seen is that a very strong client roster, very strong delivery capability, tech [indiscernible] our ability to bring in technology and amplify the human potential is very, very high. And we are at an inflection point, which is where the Board, I think, thought that from professional founder let's get our professional skill and the charter that I was given was accelerated growth. And when I started looking at the data and historical data, we have had impressive gross sales over the last 5 years. We have industry-leading margins in our KPO, BPO, IT, ITES industry. We had marquee client base and great client references. 80% of our business comes from client reference ability, client moving from parent organization, A2B, and that [indiscernible] So let's call over and [indiscernible] for us. [indiscernible] ratings, I'll give you some client foresight that you have [indiscernible] promise you deliver. We have 3 distinct businesses as we cover in the initial commentary financial markets, customer operations and digital. And in buyer, all these 3 business segments are different. In digital business, predominantly we are selling to CMO and CEO. In customer operations business, we are selling to the [indiscernible] ops head. And in the financial markets business, it's compliance, operations, tech, change are the stakeholders that we sell. We have a strong team onshore and offshore, and our sales are conservative led. We have onshore delivery centers, onshore consultants [indiscernible] and I think we have strong client-centric problems solving culture. Because I ask people who have been with eClerx for 10 years, 15 years, what has made you stay in the company? And a single-minded focus on client. And the founder believe that [indiscernible] given us the work, it's our moral responsibility to deliver on whatever commitment we have made. We have very strong deep domain. I think I am the only generalist, every one of my direct reports they made very strong domain. We will point that they can actually have a very meaningful discussion with the client and very strong delivery as I mentioned. And our entire book has a sliver of technology enablement. It's not that we are a tech company, but anything we do in of ops, be it in terms of learning management tool, be it in terms of training people, be it in terms of looking at data, looking at -- to see how do we automate, eliminate and enhance the overall experience. Now the question [indiscernible] everything is so good, then where are the opportunities? And I felt that there needs to be a much more sharper focus on sales because you could only grow to a certain point. Yes, if you continue on the referencability, so we need to create a new muscle and new drivers for growth. We need to increase risk appetite in terms of what we can do. How do we build use cases that we have delivered in a certain industry and how do we see relevance of those in other industry segments or in adjacent areas. How do we bring predictability of revenue in terms of growing top 10 outside of that? How do we add new clients and grow existing clients because as you all know, we have a very good client roster referenceable client, and there is a huge opportunity -- untapped opportunity and potential to grow those set of clients. And how will we deliver a common and consistent market messaging of 1 eClerx? I think many of the stakeholders I met, I think sort of would confuse that what does eClerx do, what do we stand for and how we will want to position ourselves. And how do we come together, like we have 3 businesses, but there are lot of formalities across 3 businesses and how -- what is the narrative we want to send to the market. Let's move to the next slide. I think our 4-year estimations are that we want to be in a top quadrant of growth and industry-leading margins. Our positioning would be on 1 eClerx and we want to be a preferred service provider for global clients across the 4 key industries: financial markets, high tech, retail and cable and telco. We want to focus on cross-selling and filling white spaces in existing clients, like I mentioned, there's lot of untapped potential in our existing clients. Moving in adjacent areas, as well as moving into new areas as well. Execute multi-year deals [indiscernible] revenue and also focus on new revenues in certain business segments. I think our value -- unique value proposition is productized service delivery. And by that, I mean, it is where you are able to bring in technology and domain together and magnify the overall experience, efficiency, effectiveness. And on [indiscernible] and delivery, how do we bring in the growth mindset. I think we have very good capability, a good client roster, how do we bring the growth mindset and take it forward. Our [indiscernible] senior management and institute a learning an innovative culture and promote collaboration across the 3 businesses, and promote entrepreneurship and our risk-taking ability, which I mentioned in the previous slide as well. Let's move to the next slide. So [indiscernible] always, what does it mean? What it means is that we want to dominate profitable service initiatives and across 4 industries. And why we have chosen this as an approach, a, it gives a focus that we will do a few things when we look [indiscernible] look at adjacencies. We will utilize full share on wallet in existing clients and pursue new clients and [geos]. So for example, if market -- we have a presence in APAC and we have been able to grow, U.S. being the largest market, our [indiscernible] market in the U.S. market, which is the biggest market. Then we assess what are the capabilities required to deliver on the growth strategy. And we said that you need client sponsor management, strong client referencing, you need large sales funding needs and also build capabilities in adjacent areas. And the reason we felt that the advantages for going with this strategy is that, a, it will take less time to build capabilities. So we will have a better timed market. We will be back on existing referenceable clients, 80% of our business comes to referenceability. We will go deeper as well as looking at it in terms [indiscernible] change and look at the change or look at technology projects and leverage our tech assets, which I will cover shortly across the 3 businesses. Now what are the risks associated? As you know that there is a revenue concentration across volatile industry because the retail, financial markets have higher volatility than some of the evergreen industries. But our portfolio and managed portfolio allows us to manage their risk. And obviously, we want to gain market share. So there will be some pricing pressure on the deals. Because my view always has been you lose a deal, you lose a deal forever. So I think we need to be competitive and see how do we deliver and market will determine the price we should do business. Now I'll also cover briefly what it means for each of our business segments. For financial market, we have increased the wallet share in existing clients because we do feel that -- we have a very good client roster, good delivery and hence, looking at adjacent areas in existing clients is an opportunity for us. And we will look at both run the bank and change the bank. We will have some small success in these areas, and we want to see how do we grow on that vector. We'll also look at new client segments for our key capabilities, which is client life cycle and trade life cycle. These are 2 product based services we have. If you look at Digital, again, we have a large roster of clients. The focus would be to pick and choose and look at increasing the wallet share and also focus on 4key industries: hi tech, retail manufacturing, luxury and fashion. On customer operations, I think we have 4 core services: chat, voice, ATR, logistics, dispatch and quality. And we need to offer disruptive proposals to gain new robust market share, as well as look at new delivery centers [indiscernible] nearshore options basis the client demand. Now if you should look at the underlying key tech-enabled services, we have only highlighted a key technology differentiators here. This is a not an exhaustive list. So in financial market, the 2 key products that we use is one is the compliance manager, which is the KYC managed services that utilizes augmented technology and efficient process to reduce cost, manage risk as well as ensure timely adherence by our clients. And it gets data feeds from Dun & Bradstreet and LexisNexis. DocIntel is leveraged for digitizing complex documents for data extraction, analytics, for structured rows, drafting and feeding downstream systems. On the digital side, Market360 is real time insights for digital shelf, enabling [indiscernible] insights, products out of stock, competitive intelligence. Merchandise [indiscernible] allows companies to launch new products and accelerates the time to launch the new products through Gen AI infused data aggregation, product builds and data flows. On the CO side, as I said, quality, I mentioned, is one of the key service areas that we have, Gen AI powered quality evaluation platform to analyze agent behavior, compliant adherence and conversation sentiment. And the Tech360 is predictive dialing platform that we have to manage customer interaction journey to real time assist capabilities for both voice and chat. So as I said, these are key products that we have. And it's not that these are the products, they are sitting on the shelf. These products are deployed with our marquee clients that we currently service. To the next slide. I think these are the 3 focus areas to deliver on the strategy. One is strengthen our sales operations, more [indiscernible] pipeline review, pipeline management, account management, optimizing sales, account and utilization, strengthening the governance process, focusing on tech sales, which can help us value our automation and analytics sales. Continue to invest in sales and marketing. The ones that are in bold are the ones where we have already made progress. And the [indiscernible] we will be working towards. [indiscernible] existing plans and new logos you saw was the strategy we laid out in terms of building adjacent capabilities, generating and winning large deals. We have got 2 million ACV, which is about 10 million in TCV if we are looking at 5-year deal count. How do we build integrated solutions and increase the overall size of the deal. Double the pipeline, cross sales, taking our [indiscernible]. I mentioned we have 3 businesses, some of it has capability, the verticals that we service. So there is an opportunity for us to cross-sell some of our capabilities into new verticals, and we'll continue to deal with debt and analytics differentiation that we have. In terms of enhancing our position. We have already on-boarded Karolina, our CMO. We will build tech partnerships and alliances, establish our Gen AI proposition and also leverage the analyst and adviser community, which we have not done in the past. So this is for FY '25 the key focus areas. For FY '26 and '27, we expect to [indiscernible] industry and capabilities and driving more top growth as well as bottom line growth behaviors through better and more rigorous performance management system. We will add multiple channels for lead generation which will help us double the pipeline. And our aspiration is to be featured as leaders in analyst rankings and also continue to monetize our service offerings. And in FY '28 is continue to focus on sustainable growth, strong margins, bring more predictability and as well as continue to invest in our leadership development at succession planning. And underpinning all of this is to continue to deliver on a robust delivery and strong margin profile. So I'll take a pause here, I think this was the last slide. And I will hand it over to Asha for the next set of [indiscernible].

Thank you, Kapil. [Operator Instructions]. We have first question from line of Nikhil Choudhary, he is from Nuvama.

My first question is regarding a possible outcome from the investment we are doing, and how long we plan to do this investment. So Kapil, you highlighted the new margin guidance and some of the new opportunity as well as capability you are trying to tap in, as well as delivery centers we are trying to develop. So any comment on how long we are planning to do that. So timeline in terms of when basically this heightened investment phase could be over. And anything in terms of quantifying the impact on those?

So, I think terms of sales and marketing, we will continue to invest, right? We are running business, and we continue to invest and in terms of capabilities, in adjacent areas also, we will be building those capabilities. And like I said, we have given the margin guidance, and we will stay within that range and we will keep a close watch in terms of growth. Our entry pipeline is strong. And that's all I can say at this time.

Sure, Kapil. In terms of the capability and investment, can you please help us understand how much is going towards building capability? Some of the product you mentioned do have a generative AI capabilities. So anything incremental we did in this area, especially positing us as a leader in this category?

So, see, this is a real line business and very hands on business that we operate for our client, in terms of services that we offer, these are critical core ops change programs that we deliver. So I think whatever is required would stay relevant, capture market share, continue to drive high performance, culture and continue to invest in growth, technology, analytics, automation is what we would do. To quantify specifics in terms of what would be [indiscernible] area, I think that we rather not give that because that would be a function of the outcome that we are able to deliver. And the range that we have given is -- it's the range that we have given taking into account, investment we will be making in [indiscernible].

Sure, Kapil. Just the last point from my side. One of the point you have mentioned is having the higher risk appetite, right? Can you give us some example how basically eClerx will change as a company, especially from a risk appetite perspective? Maybe targeting the -- maybe targeting different clients. So any example in that area?

So I'll give you an example, right? We were doing for one of the clients, we were running ops business and they wanted to build some technology products. And initially, we thought that that's -- we have never done it, so it's an uphill task, but then collectively, we put our heads together because we have strong domain process, tech capabilities, the clients were building on Microsoft Azure and we had capability on tech ops [indiscernible] doing. And we put together a cross-functional team and we are executing well on that project. Now if we were too conservative and we didn't want to take the risk, we would have said no, which would have been an easier answer, but I think by doing some of these projects, we will get greater confidence and then we will double down on the same.

The next question comes from line of Dipesh Mehta. He is from Emkay Global.

A couple of questions. First, about the margin. If I look the margin guidance, if I understand correctly, 24% to 28% is for only '25 or it is for a 4-year kind of journey? That is first question. And in that after investment phase, how you expect margin trajectory to play out? Considering growth is accelerating based on the investment, and you started getting results from those investments from growth acceleration perspective. Second question was M&A. I think you have not touched upon M&A focus. So if you can provide some color about your overall strategy, including M&A, if it fits into strategy or it is largely organic kind of thing? Then I have a couple of questions from additional data points, which you said in this quarter's presentation, the ACV [indiscernible] which you said excluding CLX. If you can help us understand how to read it because the revenue growth in ACV trajectory seems to be not going good hand in hand. So if you can help us understand based on your understanding how to read the ACV data?

So I will cover [indiscernible]. So the 24% to 28%, Dipesh is our estimate for this year, FY '25. Based on how the investment progress and what results we see out of them, I think towards the end of the year we will see if that range has to be revised, either upwards, hopefully, it doesn't happen downwards. The second question you had was on -- I think one question you had on M&A so I'll let Kapil [indiscernible]. Let me answer your third question, the ACV of new deals is basically for every deal that we sign, and this new deal wins, not renewals. What is the annual value of that contract? So if it is a multiyear contract. We will still take [indiscernible] year one. And if it is a short-term contract, let's say it's 3 months or 6 months, then we will take a value of that for the period of [indiscernible] 3 months or 6 months. And that's what it is. We have excluded CLX because they use a different system to monitor deals, and that doesn't flow into us. In any case, a lot of the CLX business is the very project based, and a lot of it needs to be resold every year. If you have any specific questions on the number of [indiscernible], I can answer. Otherwise, Kapil you want to talk about AI?

So I think you had also asked the question and we covered it. The margin I have said we have given 24% to 28% is for FY '25, and we will keep a very close watch and monitor it closely, growth and the margins that we are delivering. Like I said, it's a real time business that we are in. And we have already laid out a very strong governance process to manage both the top line and bottom line. On the M&A, yes, that continues to be our strategy. We would be looking at areas where we bring in [indiscernible] and that also helps us on our capability access. So that's what we will continue and we have a dedicated person who is looking at outbound as well as inbound M&A cohorts.

Couple of follow ups, if I can. First [indiscernible] margin 24% to 28% is roughly 400 bps lower than what the previous year’s margin guidance range was. Now it is a significant investment [indiscernible] if we look in isolation. Considering the investment in '25, do you expect the range, how long it will take for us to be the prior range?

It is hard to answer the question [indiscernible] I think it depends on how soon we get results [indiscernible].

So I think I guess said in terms of we're giving the guidance on EBITDA margin for FY '25, and then we get [indiscernible] started to yield results. As I mentioned, from 3 senior leaders we've in the market, we had doubled down, we are now 6 and 7 including me, I'm also based out of London. I think with all these assets in place, we will continue to invest. So I think we will -- as and when we have visibility, we will share the same with you.

Just on the ACV data, which you shared. You said renewal is not part of it. Am I right in understanding it?

That's right.

So it is only net new, which is included. And even from existing clients, if some additional business, we have covered it or no?

New business from existing clients, it is included.

Understand. And last question is about M&A. I think you indicated complementary area and capability driven. Can you help us understand the area where you intend to expand capabilities and where you look M&A to expand capacity and reach?

So I think we have 3 distinct businesses: financial markets, customer operations and digital. So these are the areas, and like I said, on the market side, for example, in digital, we have a strong presence in APAC. We have been to expand the U.S. So depending upon in terms of capabilities in our international markets, we have 2 distinct capabilities, in planned life cycle and trade life cycle. We have predominantly sold client life cycle in financial markets business, so the relevance of it could be in other industry segments also. And hence, those are the adjacent areas like governance, risk and compliance is where we are tapping upon. So when I say synergy it's like the clients, stakeholders, we are selling [indiscernible] capability that we have where we can bring in a differentiation from our tech and productized services. I don't want to share specific areas of [indiscernible] business. If you know like in terms of customer operation [indiscernible] productized services. In financial markets, we predominantly have 2, and then [indiscernible] in the digital side, we have 4 distinct, and we continue to look at it [indiscernible].

Next question we have from the line of [indiscernible].

So just a couple of questions from my side. So first is, like we are doing a great amount of investment. So is it fair to assume that 1H would be kind of over with the investment and 2H should be kind of a growth heavy, a part of the business because we would be done with the investments? Then the second part towards margin, I would like to understand with the wage hike coming in 1Q and investment that are still ahead of us. So fair to assume that from 2Q onwards, we would be back on to the margin expansion story? Or will it be totally driven by the 2H in terms of both growth and margin expansion?

I'll take the margin question. So you are right [indiscernible] there will be wage hikes in Q1. And if you look at our history then every year, in Q1 [indiscernible] As we go to Q2 to Q4, that percentage increase. [indiscernible] whether there is high growth or less growth and that you can expect even in this year. So you will expect that Q1 will be the [indiscernible] lowest margin, predominantly because of wage hikes. And the full impact of the investments that we have [indiscernible] Q1, and any additional investment that we might do. Kapil, you want to take the question on [indiscernible]?

Yes. So I think typically, we see in sales that there is a 6 to 9 months of lag from major investments. You are right, H2 should start seeing results. But I think we'll continue to make investments because this is an ongoing business. So it's not that you make an investment [indiscernible] because then you will only see the runway at that point. Leadership investments, yes, we have made. We will be very selective in making leadership investments. However, we will continue to expand the sales and hunting organization and [indiscernible] as well as on the capability side. So that's the [indiscernible] that we have at this moment in time.

Sure. So fair to assume that we would be kind of aspiring to reach for the double-digit growth for FY '25?

Absolutely, aspiration. Why wouldn't we aspire for double-digit. Our aspirations are higher, so.

Correct. And just the last one. So just in terms of capabilities that we are building. So just wanted to understand what sort of capabilities are we looking forward for the Gen AI on our -- for our business? And what type of partnerships are we looking for towards building the Gen AI capabilities? And how are we driving the revenues at present and going forward?

So first of all, I think what we are looking for is you saw the products that I laid out on each of our business segments. So first and foremost is our strategy and thinking is to bring Gen AI and make our products Gen AI enabled that is the first approach we are making. In Hi Tech, as well as in industrial segment, we are having conversations with the clients on doing pilots on Gen AI. We have created a workbench. So that's really what we are doing. We're also looking at getting the client advisory council. We are looking to invest, and we'll continue to build capabilities in terms of -- see it is not that you hire 5 people and Gen AI capability will come. The question is how do we make people that we have who are doing client operations and how do we make that Gen AI enabled, and we have strong learning and development program that we continue to invest in. What was the second question you had? Sorry, you had asked a follow-up question also on this.

So for on Gen AI, what's -- how are we tracking the revenues? Or when will be kind of expecting the revenues to commence and from the Gen AI specifically?

So I think we don't -- see our unique advantage that we bring in is bringing technology and human in a loop and really amplify the human potential. As I told you, we can -- we were able to meet client-specific strategic initiatives because I can train a guy and get [indiscernible] 7 days because of the simulated learning platform that I have. So in there, we are bringing Gen AI. The point that I want to make is it's not that we are tracking, Gen AI revenues separately, tech revenue separately. Our unique differentiation is to bring technology, domain and ops together. And that's very few companies can do. We continue to work and deliver on that. In fact, we are investing on the sale side in the technology on the tech, Gen AI, automation analytics to drive the growth [indiscernible].

Sure. If I can go ahead with the last one on margins again. So just wanted to understand in terms of subcontracting costs. So consistently, if we see for the last 3 quarters, we have been into the range of 2.1, 2.3. And this quarter, it's 2.5. So how should we building like for the next year, are we kind of relying more on subcontracting? And what are the margin levers that we see from 2Q if we are seeing 1Q as the bottom for the margins?

So sub-contracting cost remains in the same range. [indiscernible] specifically in every quarter depends on what kind of search volume that we get, what kind of projects [indiscernible] that we get back up in a very short period of time. So if those kinds of situations arise, then we have to engage subcontracts. I think the range is fairly narrow. To your second question on margin, I think usually, we see an impact of about 300 bps, 350 bps on Q1 margins because of the impact of wage hikes. And after that, the margins move up back to their original levels. And we expect that to happen with Q1 as well.

My question was what are the margin levers that we are seeing from 2Q if we are having the 1Q as the bottom?

Okay. So there are 2 levers we usually have, one is to growth. So that is the fundamental lever for the [indiscernible] margins. We made a lot of investments on the delivery side. So we hired senior folks, and if revenue [indiscernible] that will help add -- will help grow the margin because then we will add people to execute at the bottom. The second lever, as for most companies in our industry tends to be attrition. So [indiscernible] attrition has been high in Q2, [indiscernible] and then they decide to move on, they're not happy with the increments that they have received. So that is an addition.

Next question comes from Sandeep Shah, he is from Equirus.

Just the first question is, the definition margin guidance is including the other income, right? We have to relate to the 28.1%, which we have reported for FY 2024, right?

That's right.

Okay. So this looks like a very big investment. And can you quantify which area the bulk of the investment will go into? Will it be in sales and marketing? Will it be in leadership augmentation? Because I believe leadership augmentation is largely done and over and capability. And also, Kapil, you have also mentioned, you will not shy away to provide a billing rate discount if the deal win is very large. So can you quantify the investment in these 4 areas? How this will look like in terms of investing for the growth?

So Sandeep, like you are right, the leadership hiring that we have done, like the CRO, the CMO on the customer operations side, so that's will be very selective leadership if at all. Bulk, of the investments would be in amplifying the sales and hunting team, right? We have a lot of people who are good at farming. So we would be amplifying the hunting team, so that's one area where our investments will go. On a deal-by-deal basis, it will depend upon what the deal is, opportunistic, if it helps add capability. So it's difficult to quantify. It's not like a [indiscernible] This is for this. This is for this. Like I said, this is -- we are real-time business, where you have to make some of these decisions on a real-time basis, and that's what we will continue to do. And we have already incorporated a strong governance process, and that will allow us to manage this and deliver the growth and the margins to the street in line with the guidance that we gave.

Understand, Kapil. So why I'm asking is, what we have said is if the investment does not yield a required result in terms of growth acceleration, then we may relook our margin guidance. The way I understand is in IT and BPO being a competitive business, once you invest and lose the margin, it could be a permanent loss rather than a recoup at later stage. So what's your comment regarding this? If -- why I'm asking again is, if FY '22, if you look at, the reported margins were 32%. In FY '24, it has already gone to 28%. And from 28% at the lower end of the band, we are looking at 24%. That is a further dilution of 400 bps that also makes us believe that the management is not happy with the growth aspirations or the target, which we have done well versus market. But we want to further redo it. So what gives us confidence this time that this further 400 bps margin dilution will take us to the growth aspiration where we want to go?

So 2 or 3 things, Sandeep. One is in terms of pipeline that we are starting FY '25, it gives me a higher confidence. Number two, several of our clients that I have met along with the leadership team and the sort of discussions we are having in different areas that I highlighted. Third, our strong delivery as well as technology capability. So I think if you look at all the assets are there, unless there is something external on the overall industry goes south, that's a different thing. I think we are well poised to deliver the growth. And these are some of the levers that give me the confidence. Our delivery is very strong, 80% of business coming through references, it would not be possible if the delivery was not strong.

Okay. So Kapil, why shy away not to give a quantitative growth guidance range as well if we are looking for investment and sure about the growth targets and the aspiration and the achievements?

I think it's just like in the volatile industries that I mentioned with you, the volatility that we see, I think we have given the EBITDA guidance and the margins that we have given. And I think we will continue to operate in that range, and we will deliver and that aspiration side, some of your other colleagues asked right? Our aspirations obviously are to deliver double-digit growth. Like in terms of what the number would be, I'm like I rather not say at this stage, and we will continue as and when we get data visibility, we will keep you posted.

Okay. Just last few things. During Gen AI times, there is a possibility that the industry may foresee some amount of cannibalization pressure or a pricing pressure. So during that time, to do an incremental investment would be also slightly risky. Is there a way to churn the investment rather than look for an incremental investment? So how are we defending if Gen AI, after a couple of years, leads to additional pressure on the margins?

So I think, Sandeep, in terms -- in fact that -- from a strategic point of view, let's say, we want to envisage that threat and not as an opportunity that you have to invest to base so as to stay relevant. So that when it happens, you have got more predictability, more new clients, new units of growth. I've already working well on the cross-selling engine, white spaces and existing banks. So that I think will help us de-risk the impact of Gen AI. We are also doubling down in terms of enabling our teams on Gen AI. We are like I mentioned in all our productized services we are bringing in Gen AI capability. I think one of the questions you asked was on the alliances, which alliances you are looking at. We'll be able to come and tell you like in terms of technology companies, which are the alliances wherever we are doing ops. As and when we structure the alliances, we will come and give you the visibility and highlight. At this stage, I'd rather not give like this the company, this is the company, this is the company. Because this is, a, confidential and we are in some discussions. So as and when it happens, we will come and inform you.

Next question comes from Mihir Manohar, he is from Carnelian Asset Advisors.

First of all, I mean, there is some echo at your end. I mean, I don't know, I'm not able to hear it clearly. Maybe what is the situation for other participants. Okay, I will go through the question. I mean, I just wanted to understand, I mean, are we entering into new service lines in the existing verticals itself? Or this is like an investment, investment per se? The 400 basis points that you have quantified, is it going to be completely investment? Or we are going to enter into new service lines, which inherently will have lesser gross margins? I just wanted to have an understanding around that. Because once the margins come down by 400 basis points, I mean, how to understand the recovery going ahead that becomes very important.

So like I said, we will look at building capabilities in adjacent areas, not new service lines, number one. Because we feel that the productized service offerings that we have, they are [indiscernible] within the industry segments we service and the existing set of clients that we have. So that answers your first question. In terms of margin, in terms of we are investing in hunting, as I mentioned to you, sales and hunting which will help us gain larger market share as well as bring in more deals. And then we will invest in bringing an adjacent capability. So that's where we are. And as and when we have more visibility, we'll continue providing the visibility. At this stage, we are seeing somewhere between 24% to 28%. I know you guys are saying -- you guys are assuming that we will be at [ 24% ], which I think gives us only headroom to deliver better than what you have expected.

That's interesting. Sure. Correct. So I mean are we looking at new -- if you can throw light there, is it -- I mean, you also mentioned that if there would be some deals which require margins to be compromised, what extent of compromise on margins would be there because of such large deals which could come in?

[indiscernible] I have answer to that question. I think it's a -- as I said, right, having done [indiscernible] business, this is call collectively we will have to take as to what is right for the clients, shareholders, employees. And then we make a collective call, and that's a strategic decision at that point in time to say there's no stated guidance that we'll take a deal at this margin only, we'll take at this negative margin or this is the [indiscernible] that we have created for going and buying [indiscernible]. It depends upon the deal, [indiscernible] and many factors that go in it.

Sure, fairly. Just lastly, I mean, I agree this would be once again the same question. But any indication around growth, any expectations around growth would be really helpful.

I think we are striving for double-digit growth is what I can say.

Sure.

And like I said, our starting pipeline is robust. That gives us the confidence -- that's what is giving me the confidence, I think you or one of your colleagues had asked this question.

Next question comes from the line of Abishek [indiscernible] Equities.

Okay. I am going to ask the questions asked by the previous participant, but going to change it or flip it. So are you trying to say that it is difficult to win in the market with the current margin profile we have, and that is why we have to let go some margins as a form of investment to win business?

It's not what I said. I'm saying that we need more sales bandwidth and hunting bandwidth to go and get a larger share of the market. Selectively, if there are deals that we have to pay, and they are strategic in nature and that meet our aspirations of growth margin, shareholders' expectation, employees expectation, and we are able to deliver to the clients, we will make selective calls to build new business.

Next question comes from the line of V.P. Rajesh, he is from Banyan Capital.

So most of my questions have been answered. Just 2 questions. This particular quarter, your revenue contribution from the top 10 clients is higher than in the previous quarter and the previous year as well, same quarter. So any commentary about that in terms of are you just focusing on winning more business from top 10 or something happens with the rest of the client base. Just trying to understand if this is sort of the new trend line.

So if you remember, we had this client which went away in Personiv and [indiscernible]. So the client outside the top 10 drops out and [indiscernible]. So that is one reason for this. Second reason is also that at least in this quarter, [indiscernible] in total for the growth and have been actually quite fast. [indiscernible] which gives us a reason to believe that [indiscernible] keep saying that there is enough headroom with existing clients for us.

Okay. And my second question was about the buyback. Are the promoters going to participate in that What's the guidance on that front?

Yes.

Next question is a follow-up question from Dipesh Mehta.

A couple of questions. First, about the assumption, let's say, which we have made for lower end of the margin range and upper end, if you can give some sense, 24% to 28% range, what can lead to us to closer to 24%? And what can drive it to 28%, if you can give some sense? Second question is about -- we indicated about revenue growth of quarter. Can we say the same thing for absolute EBITDA growth, where will be among the absolute top quadrant in over 4-year period considering margin reset, which we are expecting in year 1? Third question is about the data related. If I look emerging client. This quarter, it is negative even on a Y-o-Y basis. So if you can give some sense about what is playing out and how you expect it to change? I understand partly it can be because of digital business. But quantum-wise, it appears to be much soft. So if you can give some sense. And last is about the advisory reservations, which you said. We intend to expand presence into building partnership, alliance kind of thing and as well as build relationship with advisory firms. So if you can give some more details around it.

So I'll take the question on emerging clients. Actually, if you look at the count of clients is [indiscernible] bucket, so there has been movement year-on-year [indiscernible] 3 bucket, but overall the count 5. If you look at the revenue that we have earned...

Srini, sorry to interrupt, your voice is breaking. We can't hear you clearly.

Is it better?

Yes, much better?

Okay. So if you look at the clients still [indiscernible] each of our buckets, 0.5 million, 1 million, 1 million to 3 million, 3 million plus. The total clients in all of these -- the clients in total in new bucket have won year-on-year. If you remember [indiscernible] we've been able to generate from in these buckets. So despite the decline that you see in 1 to 3 buckets. Actually, the total revenue also has each of the buckets has grown year to year. So the focus has been on strengthening what we already have in the below 0 to 0.5 bucket plus and these are client readout the clients who are not performing for us. So that is what [indiscernible] do here. The second question you had was on how we arrived at 24% to 28% and what assumptions went in. So broadly, we're looking at what investments we need to make in each area, what will be the cost of those investments, when -- what would be a timing of those investments. And what would be the optimistic, likely pessimistic kind of results from those investments. And in each of these 3 scenarios, how the market [indiscernible]. And that's how we have come up with this range.

You have one question on advisory update. So analysts and advisory channels, we will build. Like I said, specific to alliances, I will not give the names at this stage. I will when we tie up and build those partnerships, we will come and let you know in subsequent earnings call. The intent would be, again, where, let's say, if we are going offshore or digital marketing work, would we look at technology partnerships or alliances is what we would focus on. In terms of analysts and advisory channel that we will leverage, which I said we have not done in the past is something that we are working with some the leading analyst advisory firms, and we will see as and when they evaluate our capabilities, credentials as and when they get launched.

I think one question is unanswered, that is absolute EBITDA growth will be among top quartile?

What is that? Absolutely EBITDA growth?

So we indicated about revenue to be among top quartile over 4-year strategy period. Whether it holds true for even EBITDA?

Yes, absolutely. No, we said we would be in the top quartile of growth as well as EBITDA margins. I think that's what we said on the slide, but that's not in [indiscernible] years. We will be in the top quartile of both growth and margin.

No. So there is a difference. What I'm asking is absolute EBITDA growth. I understand margin because we are already way above others. Even after a correction, we will be above it. But absolute EBITDA growth as implication because of the margin reset, which will happen.

Yes. So I think I need get back to you after checking the numbers. So first year, you can definitely assume that it will be lower than the revenue growth. And then years 2 to 4 [indiscernible].

Next question on the line of Nitish Rege. He is from ChrysCapital.

So sir, as an investor, how do we think about growth? Earlier, we used to say that we will focus on absolute profit growth, and will we still grow profits on an absolute basis despite this margin guidance of a 400 basis point contraction? I'm struggling to think about how are we thinking on growth here?

[indiscernible]

Sorry, I can't. It's not audible for me.

So I think what -- absolutely the focus will be on driving both topline and bottom line growth. There's no fun in just growing the topline. I think we are not just working to grow topline. So yes, the focus will continue to deliver both topline and bottom line both. We have given you the margin range, but definitely, there will be absolute EBITDA growth as well as EPS growth as well.

This is for FY '25 also, right?

Yes. .

Next question comes from the line if Chirag Shah.

Chirag from White Pine. Sir, 3 questions interrelated. One, at what point of this 4-year period you would relook at your margin guidance? That is one. Second, are you making a statement that the historical guidance of 20% to 32% is behind. And the -- even if you look for an upgrading margin guidance, it would be lower than that. What I'm saying this, if I look at your last 10, 12, 15-year history, we started with upwards of 35% margin, then we went as low as closer to 20% and now where we are. So business has seen a lot of changes over the years. So is there a big change that you are foreseeing the next 3, 5 years, and hence, the margin guidance which we had in the past is not relevant? So if you can just highlight this then I'll come back to the third part -- third question.

So the guidance on EBITDA of 24%, 28% is for year 1. And every year, we combine -- let you know if that base changes. Your Second question on 28% to 32%, is it behind [indiscernible], unable to comment. It really depends on the growth that we are able to achieve, and whether we need pumping fresh investments year after year, will be able to sustain that. So I think again, we'll probably come back to you in 6 months or 12 months and give you a better thoughtful answer.

Okay. Just a follow-up on this. So if I look at last 5 years, a broader picture. Your revenue was up by 15% and your profit was up by 18%, 20% range depending upon how you look at it, okay? Now how should we look at these 2 metrics that is, I think, what is the basic question that we are all boiling down to? Whether this 15%, 18% profit growth is what we are aspiring? Or you are indicating that given the investment phase you are looking at, this 4-year CAGR or a 5-year CAGR could be lower than that. I think -- so this is where the crux of the question is.

So I think all our commentary for now regarding EBITDA is year 1 only, and therefore, my extension also is for year 1. And we really have to see how well the investments play out before we -- obviously, we have some plan in mind and we have some idea what this will look like over 3, 4 year period, but we will have to see how it pans out and then talk about what implications or what the outputs for the next further 3 year period.

Okay. And in case Kapil wants to comment on this, this 28%, 32% margin range, which was indicated, which was valid for a particular business period. Are business dynamics changing that range is kind of not relevant at all? Or how do you look at it?

So I think the -- it's the reason we have given the guidance, what we have given is not a function of change in business dynamics or client sentiment or [indiscernible]. It's only a function of investing ahead of the curve in sales and marketing and capability with which we will continue to do, and we'll continue to monitor the effectiveness of those investments on a real-time basis with strong governance process that we have made. Right now we have given you the visibility for year 1, which is for FY '25. As and when we get more visibility, we will come and provide you that visibility, if not earlier, then we will give you as when we disclose the FY '26 and FY '27 and FY '28. Having said that, we are also saying that we will be in the top quadrant of our industry growth and margins, right? Because we are operating in a competitive market, we are operating in an industry. So we are saying we will continue to maintain our pole position on both growth as well as market.

Next question comes from Mihir Manohar. He is from Carnelian.

Sir, I mean the 400 basis points that we have quantified, if you can split that between capabilities and building of sales and development -- sales and business people, that will be helpful. And since given the fact that we are building a business development team, I mean, what kind of expectations are we going to have from them at the overall company level on the growth side? That will be -- because I just wanted to understand what is the expectations around when we're building a business development team, that will be helpful. And just a clarification, I think you mentioned that even in absolute EBITDA and absolute profit. So the absolute profit is INR 550 crores FY '24. You are still looking in FY '25 absolute profit to grow. So what essentially you are saying is that the growth will offset the EBITDA cut, which is happening, and we will still report a profit growth. Is that understanding correct?

Yes, that's correct.

[indiscernible].

Sorry, sorry. Sorry, Srini, I'm not able to hear you. I think there is an echo, which is...

See the split between what we are investing in sales, capability, infrastructure and other things. I think it's difficult to give a [indiscernible] Like, I've been saying. [indiscernible] you asked that will report the increase of the bottom line profit despite the margin guidance we have given. And I said, yes, it's a real time business. So depending upon the situation that market needs and demand, we will continue to invest and build capabilities as well as all the sales engine.

Sure Understood. So that's roughly $10 million to $12 million. I mean, any quantification actual, let's say, what number of people are we looking to hire in these geographies? Is it like we want to build a 10-people sales team, 20-people sales team, some indication around that?

I think [indiscernible] the point is it's not like we have said okay we will build 20 people sales team and let’s go and add on. You understand what I'm saying? We'll have to also see what the return I'm getting from this team that we are building. We will also see what is the market sentiment, what is the market environment. Like I said, any sales investment that we make will take 6 to 9 months to give you results. And we'll continue to monitor it on real time basis. That's what we will continue. In terms of [indiscernible] management team and the executive committee to make some of those decisions. At this stage, I think we have provided the guidance that we have visibility on.

That was the last question for the day. Now I will hand over the call to PD for the closing remark.

So everybody, thank you so much for joining our call today. Appreciate you making the time. Slightly longer session than we usually have. Also, I wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for the support that we have received from all of you over the years. It's been almost 15-plus years that we had the privilege of enjoying your support. With Kapil and the team taking all the reigns of executive management, we feel confident that it's a massive upgrade on the biggest management team and we're in for an exciting ride. So from the next quarter onwards, the aim is for Kapil and Srini to lead these calls. We will, of course, be involved with the company with our ownership stake on the Board. But we feel it's no longer appropriate for us to join these calls going forward. So I wanted to take this opportunity once again to thank you all for your support. And I'm sure you are to give Kapil the same support and guidance and benefit of your counsel over time. I know if Anjan wants to add a few words before we sign out today.

No, PD, I think you said things very well. I guess the only thing I'll remind people and the investor community is that ultimately it's a long game, and we should just play for the long game.

Thank you, PD. Thank you, Anjan. Thank you for giving the opportunity. Thank you very much.

Thank you, everyone. Bye, and have a nice weekend.