Edenred SE (EDEN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, and welcome to Edenred Q1 2025 Revenue Conference Call. My name is Rushdie, and I'll be your coordinator for today's event. Please note that this call is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] I will now hand you over to your host, Mr. Bertrand Dumazy, to begin today's conference. Please go ahead.

Good morning. I am Bertrand Dumazy, the Chairman and CEO of Edenred. I'm surrounded by our IR Officer, Cedric Appert, but also Patrick Bataillard, our Interim CFO till June 2 of this year. Thank you for being with us today for me to share the Edenred Q1 2025 revenue presentation. We will be together for the next 60 minutes. I will start with the presentation. You should have the slides, and then I will be more than happy to answer any questions you may have. I propose that we move to Slide 2. In the executive summary, what are the main messages of our Q1 publication. First of all, we delivered top line growth, in line with our expectation despite a tougher macro environment, especially in Europe. The operating revenue is up 7.1% like-for-like, driven by a good performance in Latin America and in Mobility, but also by our Beyond Food and Beyond Fuel digital services. The second message is, in fact, we continue to deploy our Beyond strategy, and it gives us an advantage based on this very unique platform serving millions of users, 60 million of them around the world. The third message, Page 3, Edenred is able to confirm its target for full year 2025. What does it mean? An EBITDA growth like-for-like of at least 10%, and a cash conversion, i.e., EBITDA to free cash flow conversion rate superior to 70%. We confirm our target, but we remain vigilant on any further macroeconomic deterioration. You know as much as I know that we are living in a very disrupted environment. These objectives are possible, thanks to the dynamic we have on our top line, but also it's going to be led by operating performance optimization. What does it mean? Our Fit for Growth plan, which is focused on cost efficiency, but also our product improvement plan for a few businesses that are performing below Edenred standard, and finally, the rationalization of our portfolio. For example, we exited the B2C BaaS activity. I propose that now we move to the highlights of the quarter. And so if we go now into more details, let's move to Page 6. So you see that our operating revenue has been growing by 7.1% like-for-like, moving from EUR 625 million to EUR 667 million. It is the symbol of our continued success on the Core, but also on the Beyond solutions, allowing us to drive further market penetration despite 2 headwinds. The first one, an economic slowdown in Europe, especially in France and in Germany. But I also remember a very high basis of comparison in Q1, because in Q1 2024 versus Q1 2023, we grew as much as 16.9% like-for-like. Then if we move to Page 7, and to look at the breakdown of the growth per business line, first of all, Mobility, representing 26% of our operating revenue in Q1. Mobility has been growing at almost 12% like-for-like. Then Benefits & Engagement representing 65% of our operating revenue. Benefits & Engagement business line has been growing at 7.6%. If we move to Page 8, and we look at the breakdown of the growth of our operating revenue per geographies, you see that in Latin America, we are growing like-for-like at 16.3%, Latin America representing 30% of our operating revenue. Rest of the world is growing double digit as well. 16.7% like-for-like in this first quarter. And as I previously said, we see a slowdown in Europe. Europe has been growing at 5% reported in Q1 and 1.2% like-for-like in Q1. So if we go into more details as to the understanding of the growth, and we start Page 9 with the difference between Meal & Food and Beyond Food. In Meal & Food, when you look at the business volume growth in Q1 2025, like-for-like and excluding the consumption vouchers in Belgium, it's a program that was launched and stopped, in fact, in 2024. So if you look at the performance of the core of Meal & Food, we have been growing like-for-like in Q1 2025, by more than 8%. What is interesting is to look at the acceleration of our Beyond Food, which represents more than 30% of, in fact, the operating revenue for this business line. You see a strong acceleration of the growth moving from 13.5% to 16.9%, excluding the Gift Solutions. So why? Because as you know, we have a high basis of comparison, in fact, due to the program that were not as good as we expected in Q4 2024. If we continue the analysis for the Mobility business line, Page 10, you see that in terms of the core of the Mobility, which is our Fuel activities, you see a growth that is at 7.7% like-for-like versus 7.5% in 2024. And when we look at the Beyond Fuel, just like with Beyond Food, you see an acceleration moving from 10.5% to 15.1%. It is the confirmation of the solidity of our Beyond strategy. We are serving 60 million users around the world via 1 million corporate clients with a very unique digital platform on which we can serve more and more our clients with additional services, accelerating the cross-selling and the upselling, which is one of the advantage of the platform. Now if we move into the highlights of the quarter per business line, what are the few things that I would like to share with you. Page 12, if we start with the first business line, which is Benefits & Engagement, you know that one of the driver on the growth on top of the penetration and the upselling and the cross-selling is obviously the face value. And in fact, I have some good news to share with you. In 2024, we had 10 countries that increased their maximum legal face value. And in fact, in the first quarter of 2025, we already have 8 countries that have increased their maximum legal face value in 2025 for an average of 4.3%. What does it mean? If you remember the principle based on our historical observation, it takes about 2 years to go after the 85% usage of the legal face value increase. So the 10 countries that have increased their maximum face value in full year 2024, it's going to contribute to the growth in 2025, as it contributed to the growth in 2024. But now that we are recharging with additional 8 countries in 2025, it will contribute to the growth of 2025, but also to the growth of 2026. If we move now to the second business line, which is Mobility, Page 13, we selected for you 2 examples to demonstrate the upselling capabilities of Edenred, but also the cross-selling capacity. As to the upselling capabilities, we took the example of the fact that we became the exclusive fuel provider for Mexican central administration. What does it mean? It's a fleet of 75,000 vehicles. We started a relationship 5 years ago. Slowly but surely, we increased our share of wallet, and we are very pleased to have 100% of the total needs of the central administration of Mexico for the first time in our history, so in 2025. It means 55 million additional liters that are expected for 2025. So it's an example of our capabilities in terms of upselling. We can start slow, we can start low, but thanks to our digital platform, our innovation capabilities and our sales and marketing efforts, slowly and surely, we are able to increase our share of wallet and so our upselling capabilities. Second example in Mobility, in Europe this time. In fact, it's a worldwide partnership, but with a European partner, one of the leader of the truck business, which is Daimler. We started a partnership many years ago. We started with providing a fuel card to any owner of a Daimler truck and to have access to a fuel network of 68,000 fuel stations in 37 different countries. Then we were able to provide toll and maintenance, and we are very pleased to have signed, a few weeks ago, an extension of our partnership with the fact that we will provide for any user or owner of a Daimler truck, an EV charging network. It means 300 truck compatible charging stations in 28 countries. This is another example of our cross-selling capacity, and also surfing on the electrification wave of the Mobility that we are seeing everywhere in Europe, and it's true for the light vehicles, but also for the heavy vehicles like the trucks. If we move now to Page 14, and for the third business line, the Complementary Solutions. Here, we selected an example of our product innovation. Based on the leverage of our specific purpose payment capabilities and our platform, we are able to deploy new programs and new programs also in Complementary Solutions. Tarjeta Rosa is a new public social program in the state of Guanajuato in Mexico. This state represents 5% of the Mexican population. It's for almost 600,000 mothers that are cardholders of the Tarjeta Rosa, and they will be able to benefit from health services and additional purchasing power through the usage of this Tarjeta Rosa that is, in fact, issued and emulated by Edenred. It represents EUR 260 of annual subsidy per mother and, as I said, per year. So it's a good example of the leverage of our innovation capabilities, specific purpose payment. And I took an example in Mexico, but you remember that we are in 45 countries and specific purpose payment is a technology of some interest for public social programs. You want the founders of the program. They want to know where and when the money is spent. So I propose now to move into more details as to the Q1 2025 revenue. So if we move to Page 16, we post a reported operating revenue of EUR 660 million. It is a growth of 7.1%. Behind that, you have some scope effect and currency effect. The scope effects are due to the acquisition of IP, Spirii, PagBem, and RB Serviços, representing an impact of plus 4%, but we have a currency impact, mainly driven by the weakness of the Brazilian reais and the Mexican peso in Q1 2025, representing minus 4.5%, leading to this reported growth of 6.7% of our operating revenue. If we move to Page 17, what does it mean in Latin America? We are pleased to post double-digit like-for-like growth in Latin America. Latin America representing 30% of our operating revenue, it means a like-for-like growth of 16.3% in Q1 2025 versus 2024, as reported almost 8%. Then if we look per major geographies and if we start with Brazil, you see an acceleration of the growth in Brazil. We were at 10% in Q4 2024, and we are moving at 16%. What is behind the 16%, double-digit growth in Benefits & Engagement and for the Meal & Food core solutions, but also for the Beyond Food solutions. In Mobility, a very dynamic growth as well that has been augmented by the Beyond Fuel solutions, maintenance, toll and freight payment that have been growing at double digit in Q1 2025. Then if we look at Hispanic Latin America, we are able to post in Q1 double-digit like-for-like growth in both Benefits & Engagement and Mobility. And so it means a growth, if we exclude, in fact, the Argentinian hyperinflation in 2024, it's a growth of 14.8% in Q1 2025. Then if we move to Europe, Yes, in Europe, it's a soft start to the year as expected and as shared with you during our 2024 results. First, general comment for the entire continent of Europe. We have a context of macroeconomic slowdown, but we also have something that is specific to Edenred, which is a high basis of comparison. So then if we move into the geographical breakdown and if we start with France. The good news is in 2024, Edenred in France has gained market share in meal vouchers market. Having said that, we post a growth of plus 0.4%. There is, in fact, a drag of the Gift activities as a consequence of the low performance of our Gift campaign in Q4 2024. So as you know, the campaign is the last quarter of the year, but it has some economic implication in terms of reimbursement volume in the first quarter of the year after. So we have this drag, and we also have a slowdown of the activity in France, leading to this 0.4%. Once again, the good news is market share gain. Then if we look at the rest of Europe, and we start with Benefits & Engagement, we are able to post a steady performance in Southern Europe, but we have a high basis of comparison in Q1 2024. We discussed previously about the consumption voucher program in Belgium. And in fact, because the program has been stopped in the Q1 2025, we still have this impact in terms of basis of comparison. As to the Mobility, in the rest of Europe, we have a positive commercial traction of Edenred UTA. It is partly offset by Edenred Finance performance, which is in our portfolio of business where we need to accelerate our development. And I don't have news that I can share with you this quarter, but hopefully, for the presentation of the results H1, we'll be able to demonstrate the rebound in this activity. So that's for the soft start to the year in Europe. Now if we move to the other revenue, we can confirm another revenue floor at EUR 210 million for 2025. So the performance in Q1 2025 is at EUR 57 million, which is a like-for-like growth of 1.9%, but reported it is a decrease, because in Q1 2024, we posted EUR 60 million. What are the drivers behind that? The positive one is our float increase, which is due to our BV, business volume, increase, but also an upward trend in Brazilian interest rates. On the headwinds, we have a downward trend in the Eurozone interest rates, and we have some negative ForEx impact, which explains the difference between a like-for-like growth of 1.9% and a reported decrease of 5.2%. But thanks to the Q1 results and thanks to the wise management of the other revenue, we are able to confirm a floor at EUR 210 million for 2025. So it leads to the final equation of revenue, Page 20, a total revenue of EUR 724 million in Q1 2025, which is a like-for-like growth of 6.7%. Then we have some scope effect due to the acquisition of IP, Spirii, PagBem, and RB Serviços, but then the currency impact, mainly led by the Brazilian reais and the Mexican pesos, so a reported growth of 5.7%. So after this Q1 2025 revenue results, what does it mean for the rest of the year? So Page 22. Despite a challenging macro environment and the impact of the fee cap in Italy, which will take effect from Q3 onward, we confirm our full year 2025 guidance, which is an EBITDA like-for-like growth of at least 10% and a cash conversion of 70% and plus for the year 2025. As said in introduction, we live in a very disrupted environment. Every week we all receive, everywhere around the world, some signals that can be positive and negative, but that creates, in fact, some instability. And as you know, capitalism doesn't like instability, and the CEOs, they do not like that as well. So we need to remain vigilant on any further macroeconomic deterioration. This growth in 2025 will be delivered, thanks to 4 factors on the top line. First of all, a business model that is strong and that relies on the recurrence of our revenues. We have a diversified business mix and multi-local footprint, and we see that clearly in Q1 2025. Yes, it's soft in Europe, but strong in the rest of the world. Yes, it's softer on the Meal and Food, but stronger on Mobility. Yes, it can be slightly softer on the Core, but we have the Beyond products that are accelerating. And so that's the first point. The acceleration of our Beyond strategy is one of the pillar of the growth for 2025. And finally, the relevance of our solution offering, thanks to our unique platform, serving 60 million users around the world, plus 10 million users, in fact, in 3 years. We are able more and more to leverage these technological capabilities. And to give you an example, when we talked about the Tarjeta Rosa in Mexico, the solution has been developed and deployed in less than 3 weeks. So the year 2025 is a year of growth on the top line, but also a year of higher operating profitability. And this higher operating profitability will be supported by a focus on cost efficiency, the program that we call Fit for Growth, but also the implementation of our performance product improvement plan and a portfolio review. So 2025 for Edenred is a year of growth of the top line, but also operating efficiency to meet our guidance of 10% growth EBITDA like-for-like. In Page 23, you have an illustration of what it means. So first bucket of growth is the operating revenue growth, thanks to the Core, thanks to the Beyond and thanks to the M&A integration, but also focused management actions for operational efficiency, Fit for Growth, product performance and portfolio review. But we also know that we have some headwinds. In 2025, we will have a drop in other revenue, but with a floor expected at EUR 210 million. And as you know, we have a fee cap in Italy and the fee cap estimate is about EUR 60 million. The combination of those elements lead to an equation of 10% and more like-for-like growth for the operating revenue. Thank you for your attention. Page 24 is a gentle reminder as to our Capital Markets Day that will happen in Paris on November 4. Thank you for your attention, and I am all yours to answer any questions you may have.

[Operator Instructions] We'll start off with the line of Mr. Andre Juillard from Deutsche Bank.

First one is about regulation. Could you give us some more color about what is happening in Italy and France? Second question, could you also update us on the reorganization of CSI in the United States? And at last, about Reward Gateway deployment. Could you also update us on how it goes? And what are the first takeaways you are having on this part?

And thank you for your questions. So regulation in France. The Minister, Véronique Louwagie, set an agenda and she said Phase 1 is what they call consultation or consultation, so listening to all the stakeholders, the employers, the employees, the issuers, the merchants. And this consultation phase is supposed to be over by this month. Then if we understand the Minister, she said that there will be the synthesis and the platform of synthesis that is going to be put on the table within -- in fact, by the summer and then go to the parliament for a vote. Our understanding based on the conversation we have in the different roundtables is the following one. Priority #1 is do everything possible to make sure that there is more ticket restaurants in France, because the penetration is only 28%. It's low as compared to many other countries. So how do we make sure that this measure, which is a measure of equity or, let's say, equality between the people who have access to a canteen and the people who do not have access to a canteen, to make sure that more and more people who do not have access to a canteen have access to ticket restaurant. So the priority for the government, based on our understanding, is to help grow the business. Then the second priority is to decrease the cost of operating for the merchants. What does it mean? It means digitalization. The French market is digital at only 80%. The cost of dealing with the paper with 14 different issuers, 14 and more, the cost is not sustainable. And so priority #1 is the end of paper in France. And our understanding is it should happen in 2026. So 2025 could be the last year of paper in France. The second priority is the clarification of the usage. Can we use that in restaurant? Yes. Can we use that in hypermarket and supermarket? Yes, but under certain conditions and for certain products. So there's still a need for clarification in terms of usage. Our understanding on the third point is clarity on the prices, i.e., depending on the model, so closed loop, for example, for Edenred, open loop for some other players, to make sure that the tariffs are clear, especially in open loop, because the interchange does not always appear in the tariffication of the people that are using this kind of technology. So it's our understanding of, let's say, the main points of what will be the reform of the ticket restaurant in France. Your question was about Italy. In Italy, today, there is no change as the cap of 5%. So we are getting organized as to the rebalancing. And what I can share with you is, as of today, because that's something we follow, obviously, in a very disciplined manner, as of today, in terms of renegotiation, i.e., the rhythm of the renegotiation and as to the rhythm of rebalancing, we are in the plan we defined for the year 2025. Your second question was about reward -- the third was about Reward Gateway, how it goes. It's double-digit growth, good success, in fact, in the U.S., in the U.K., in Australia, which is the historical basis of the business. Good deployment in France, Belgium and Romania. So for example, in Belgium, we transferred all the users of our platform of engagement that was much more limited than the one of Reward Gateway. Everything has been, in fact, moved to the Reward Gateway platform with great success, because we see a level of engagement, a level of usage and a level of spending that has dramatically improved based on the quality of the digital service that we are proposing. As to the synergies, you know that in 2024, we were in line with our plan. And for the first quarter of 2025, we are also in line with the objectives we set. So as to Reward Gateway, integration, synergy generation, migration and conquest of new markets. So far, it is according to the plan that we set at the time of the acquisition. Then your second question as to CSI. CSI, double-digit growth for many years, flat in 2024. So we decided to change a certain number of things. First of all, a renewed management team. Second thing, a new commercial ambition. Third thing, reinvestment on the platform to adapt better to the evolution of the corporate payment in the U.S. We are in the middle of the work in a tough economic environment in the U.S. because, as you know, due to the uncertainty that has been created at, let's say, the commercial level and decisions that were made at the American government, it creates uncertainty and it creates some negative impact on the level of activity. So to make a long story short, CSI, we are in the middle of the work. We are seeing some improvements, and it's encouraging, but there's still some way to go.

[Operator Instructions] We'll take the next line from Ed Young from Morgan Stanley.

I've got 2 questions, if that's okay. The first is you've talked a little bit, Bertrand, about the macroeconomic situation. I think that's obviously very understandable with everything that's going on. And you've inserted a little bit of clarifying language on your guidance about remaining vigilant. I wonder if you could tell us if you're seeing any changes so far on the client side? And what is it you're looking for in order to gauge what the impact might be on the business? And the second one is related to this on the cost side. You've talked about a cost suppression program, and you've spoken that there are some areas around sales or other areas where you're going to protect costs and otherwise, you're looking to suppress them. Would you be inclined to take more aggressive cost action to protect achieving your target if macro did get worse?

Thank you for your 2 questions. First of all, as to the macroeconomic environment, uncertainty, in fact, increases the decision-making process. So we see it everywhere in Europe. As to the middle market and the SMEs, we see the fact that it takes longer time today to close and to sign a contract with the middle market and the SMEs. And myself, I took some time to listen to some of the prospects. And basically, I will summarize it very simply. I want the Edenred solution, send me the contract. I'm okay on everything, but I will sign as soon as I know that, in fact, what's going on, on the international scene and what's going to be the impact for me. So we are in a phase where it takes longer to sign on the new business. Then the second thing that I see, and we don't see it yet in the numbers, but be prepared for that, unemployment will go up because that's another thing we look at very closely. We look at our portfolio and we look at how many orders are done from 1 month to another client per client. And when the order in number of users is going down, the question we ask ourselves, does it mean that part of it went to the competition? Or does it mean that, in fact, the employers have less employees. The good news is we are gaining market share everywhere around the world. So it's not as if the business was going to somebody else. But the bad news is for many clients, especially on the temp business, especially on what we call the ESN, i.e., consulting services, especially technological consulting, we see those employers that, in fact, have fired some people. So I can tell you for sure that you will see the unemployment going up in Europe, because I see it today in my portfolio. The good news is we are able to compensate that, thanks to, in fact, good activities on new clients, so more penetration, but also on our churn, we are very stable. So it's not as if we were losing to the competition some clients. But yes, the macroeconomic environment has, in fact, an impact on the unemployment and so the total number of users in the historical portfolio. The last element is the number of kilometers that is driven by the fleet under our management. If you have lower growth, obviously, the vehicles are driven less on a daily basis. The good news is we are able to accelerate on the Beyond in Mobility, as I demonstrated earlier. That's why we are very vigilant on the macroeconomic environment, because for us, the tariffs, no impact, because we are multi-local, we don't import, we don't export anything. So we are immune directly from the tariffs. Indirectly, a lower GDP growth is not good for the kilometers driven and the unemployment. Having said that, our job is to compensate via the Beyond strategy and more penetration. That's for what we are looking at. Then as you rightly said, it's a balance between the top line growth but also our operational efficiency. So what have we been doing? In fact, we have a program, Fit for Growth with a certain number of streams, on which we want to be more efficient. First of all, at Edenred, we were focused on growth. I remember that we multiplied by 2 our operating EBITDA in 3 years. And when you do that, certainly, you lose a little bit of efficiency. So for example, we will implement shared business services in finance, in HR, in legal as well, which is a source of, let's say, efficiency. The second thing is we have been increasing a lot our investment in technology, and I shared that with you, you repair your roof when it's sunny. So when we had all this growth, it's the right moment to accelerate for the convergence of our platform and the development of our digital platform. Now we enter a phase where we'll continue to invest. So the tech investment will grow in 2025, but will not grow at 15% or 20% as we did during the last 3 years. And it's the right timing because we need to have a return on investment on everything we invested for the last few years. One thing we don't do is decreasing our investment in client-facing and revenue-generating activities. We need to continue to invest a lot on these activities to fuel the growth. So I take an example, middle market or SMEs, telesales, you need lead generation. And so the thing you don't want to limit the increase of our investment is less lead. We are an underpenetrated market. There's still a lot to go after. And so to be able to do it, marketing investment, for example, in lead generation is key. And after that, you need to have the workforce to transform the lead generation into sales and good contract with the highest face value possible. And so we are very, very disciplined in where we want efficiency, so the back offices, where we want to invest in the technology, but at a pace that reflects all the investments we did before. And then the things where we continue to invest full blast, sales and marketing, i.e., client-facing and revenue-generating activities.

Could I just perhaps follow up on the cost side? You've explained in a very detailed way the mentality towards it. But what I was wondering about is, would you be willing to do more than you were planning if the top line was worse because of macro? You're obviously saying you protect revenue lead generation. You talked the efficiencies, but some of those projects like HR and central services are going to take longer than a few months to do. They can be multiyear projects. So is there an incentive there? Or do we just sort of think about this as the cost side you're already planning efficiencies in the shape you think is correct. And therefore, if the top line is a bit lower, then that will just have to be reflected in the numbers? How do we think about that?

Yes. So Ed, as of today, the equation is balanced. i.e., what we have in our efficiency program. And once again, the operating expenses of Edenred will grow in 2025. But as of Q1 2025, we are in our line to be able to deliver the 10% EBITDA like-for-like growth. Then as I said, we live in a very disrupted world. The thing I will not do is compromise the future of Edenred. So what does it mean? It means that if the macroeconomic environment becomes so ugly and if the impact on our business line is more important than we expect, then we will get back to you, because one thing I will not do for Edenred is to compromise the future growth of Edenred. So we will do what is needed from an efficiency point of view. But in fact, we don't do it for 2025. We are doing it for the next 3 to 5 years. Shared business services, it's not for 1 year. And by the way, in fact, year 1, shared business services cost you more than it brings. We do it for the future of Edenred. Continuing to invest in our tech, but let's say, at a pace that is more reasonable versus the growth of the top line, it's just hygiene. We need to adapt, and we did a lot of investment in the past. So no, there will be no compromise as to the potential future growth of Edenred. So, so far, so good. We are in our line, and we'll see how it goes. As you know, the world became very unpredictable. Having said that, we have a very resilient model as well.

We'll take our next question from Justin Forsythe from UBS.

I have a couple of questions from my end here as well. I wanted to hit a little bit on the growth algorithm. So I think if I heard you correctly, Bertrand, the back of envelope math suggests that those 3 impacts you talked about in Europe, maybe excluding that, you would have been closer to the 4Q exit rate. So just wanted to think about the phasing for European revenue growth throughout the year. Some of that stuff, I think, is not recurring, the negative impacts. So how should we think about the puts and takes there? I guess the other implication on the back of that is, and I think you were alluding to this as well, is that a more negative incrementally negative macro situation, i.e., lower employment as an example, would perhaps be an incremental negative. So maybe you could just re-highlight those 2 points. Separately, I wanted to hone in a little bit on Brazil and had a question specific to PagBem. Just wanted to clarify how you were recording that within your numbers? If that was hitting scope at any point in time, because I believe that joint venture has gone live? And I guess, more holistically, is that helping to fuel some of the acceleration in Beyond Fuel growth in the business?

Justin, thank you for your questions. So first of all, the link between Fuel and Beyond Fuel. Yes, there is a link, because, in fact, you need a portfolio of users of the Core solutions to be able to propose additional services. And at the same time, when you come with an offer with the Core plus the Beyond, in fact, in tenders, you increase your chances of winning, because many clients love the potentiality of having more than a fuel card or an energy card. So obviously, there is a link between the one and the other. Having said that, the level of penetration of Beyond, let's say, the level of cross-selling on Beyond is not yet where we would like it to be. So to make a long story short, you need the Core business to sell the Beyond. But having the Beyond when you sell the Core business increases your chances to win. So that's the first element. And the second element, as I said, the level of cross-selling reveals still a lot of potential. And I'm sure you remember that for what we shared with you in Feb 2025, we said that the average number of additional solutions that is sold is about 1.4, and we have some countries where we are at 4 or 5. So that's something we are working on. Then you had a question as to PagBem. So in fact, we made the merger between our cargo/threat activities with PagBem in December 2024. And so in fact, it's part of the scope effect that you see. And it's where I try to show you have, between the like-for-like and the published, you have a scope effect and the scope, obviously, is not in the like-for-like. And so for the year 1, the merger between PagBem and our cargo activities is not in the like-for-like, but it is in the published. Then you had a question as to the growth algorithm and the soft start in Europe. As I said, in Europe, you have one element that is due to Edenred, which is a high basis of comparison. If I remember correctly, we were close to 13% growth in Europe in Q1 2024. So that's the basis of comparison. And then we had, in the basis of comparison, as I said, the consumption voucher in Belgium that is gone. And we have a drag as to the gifting activities, where our campaign was not as good as expected in Q4 2024. And then, as we said, we have for now a below standard department, Edenred Finance, previously known as EBV, where, in fact, we had a super-good ride for many years and the year 2024 was not as good as expected. And it's a good kick in our butt. So we are working hard on it. And as I said, the rebound is very close. So we are very pleased by the performance improvement plan that have been put in place. So those elements are very specific to Edenred and contributed to the soft start of Edenred in Q1 2025. So that's one thing. Then soft start in Europe. As I said, the numbers of kilometers driven in Europe is at a low level. But for Mobility, we are able to compensate, thanks to a very good dynamism in terms of product innovation and sales on the Beyond. So in the toll, in the maintenance, in the telematics, we are progressing well in Europe. And the second thing is, as I said, in Food & Meal in Europe, we saw it mainly in France and Germany, but it's not super brilliant in the rest of Europe as well. We see some portfolios where, in fact, if you used to order 100, you're going to order 99 the next month. Why? Because you let go one person. That's why I said to you, you will see the unemployment rate rising in Europe for sure in H2, because those people are not yet registered, but they will appear in the stats in the second part of the year. By the way, I'm sure you saw the stat of the French government, who said that the unemployment rate will move from 7.5% up to 8%, in fact, in the second part of the year. So that's something we need to take into account. But once again, we are here to compensate and grow. So more penetration, i.e., very good new sales activities, as low as possible churn, and acceleration on additional services with the cross-selling and the upselling.

Got it. Thank you for the detailed response. Just a quick clarification on that France point. I think that was really good color. I guess on the benefit side of things, you walked through some of the impacts there. So EBV, gifting in Belgium. Just confirming, I think all of those have the potential, or at least we know gifting is like a 4Q and 1Q phenomenon. Belgium, I think, was also specific to a couple of certain quarters. And then you noted the potential offset to EBV, as you've invested in, I think, a potential large contract come through. So it's possible that, that effectively could be resetting almost at the 4Q exit rate in 2Q if all of that goes as planned.

Yes. In fact, Justin, you are right. Gifting, we should not see the impact in Q2 of this year. It's behind us. In Belgium, in fact, it should be over, in fact, in Q2 as well. And as to Edenred Finance, previously known as EBV, in fact, the underperformance started, in fact, in Q4. So the rebound, we should see it, in fact, commercially, I guess, in H2 2025. But in the numbers, the basis of comparison will not be there anymore in Q4 2025.

[Operator Instructions] We'll take our next question from the line of Pravin Gondhale from Barclays.

Firstly, on France, you previously mentioned during your discussion, the discussion is around clarity on prices depending on the model, i.e., closed loop versus open loop. Are we talking about a regulation on dual pricing model for those different models here? Can you please clarify that? And then secondly, on the face value revisions, the 8 countries which saw face value increases in Q1, what proportion of revenues that represent for Eden Employee benefits?

Okay. Pravin, thank you for your questions. So no, there is no regulation between closed loop and open loop or different pricing. The only thing I was saying is, in fact, you can use many different pieces of technology to serve the clients. And based on the pieces of technologies, and it's very technical, the way it is built to the client can be via different ways. So sometimes part of the fees, it's not the case of Edenred, but it's the case for certain newcomers, some of the fees are paid via the acquisition cost that is paid by the merchants to the acquiring bank. To make a long story short, if you go on the Edenred site, as a merchant, you have a public tariff and that's super clear, because you will not pay more than what it is said on our public tariff. For certain newcomers that are using different pieces of technology, sometimes they forget to mention additional fees that will be paid indirectly by the merchants to the acquiring banks, okay? And so what the minister wants is clarity on prices, i.e., what is the total cost of the service that is provided by the issuers. So there is no regulation on that. There is no willingness to regulate that. There is only the willingness to be transparent on how much it costs. Then your second question was as to the number of countries since, let's say, in Q1 2025 that have proposed, in fact, a face value increase. The 8 countries represent, let's say, about 20% of our group operating revenue.

That's really helpful. Wishing you all the best for your future endeavors as well.

Thank you, Pravin. We take all the encouragements in a disrupted world.

We'll now take our next question from Simona Sarli from Bank of America.

Thanks for taking my questions on behalf of Simona Sarli. Both of my 2 questions are on the contribution of hyperinflation to the organic growth. First, in Argentina, any indication specifically about the contribution to mobility growth and then an indication about the contribution to Turkish hyperinflation?

Okay. So as to Argentinian hyperinflation, you have a slide on Page 30 in the appendix. As a reminder, we expect, in fact, the impact of hyperinflation in Argentina to be at about 0.5% for the entire year. So it's much less than last year. And if there is no devaluation of the Argentinian peso, we should avoid the effect that we saw in Q4 2024. So to make a long story short, Argentina is still in hyperinflation, but the impact, in fact, on our total level of growth is now or should be super limited in 2025. As to Turkey, I don't have the answer to your question. So I propose that you contact Cedric.

Okay. And any indication specifically on Mobility for Argentina?

For Argentina, Mobility Q1 2025. So Cedric, I need your help on this one.

Yes. So you know that Mobility is 25% of our operating revenue. And Argentina is mostly in Mobility, so which means that if you look at the impact at group level, it's 0.4%. You need to multiply by about 4%. So it drives to, let's say, 1.5% contribution into Mobility growth.

Maybe we're going to take one last question unless there are 2 questions. Okay?

All right. So we'll start with the line of Josh Levin from Autonomous Research.

Two questions. First, just a follow-up on the Argentina hyperinflation. So in the last few days, Argentina signed a deal with the IMF that will allow the currency to devalue somewhat. So should we still think that, that 50 basis points per quarter is still valid? Or we might be thinking it might be a little bit different given that the currency could actually devalue fairly soon? And the second, you talked about Mobility, lower kilometers being driven. What about lower oil prices and petrol prices? What have you seen there? And what might you see there? And over what time frame might that impact Mobility?

Okay. So I propose to answer question 2, and then Cedric will help me on question 1. So to make a long story short, Mobility is 30% of our total revenue. In Mobility, 70% is the Core, 30% is the Beyond. The Beyond doesn't have any link with the price of the oil. So then if you take the 70% of the 30%, then we have different pricing formula depending on the countries. So sometimes it's a mix of fixed fee and variable fees. And as to the variable fees, it can be a percentage on the fuel price, but it also can be number of times you fill in the tanks. So that's one part of the equation. The second part of the equation is the link between the Brent and the price at pump. And it depends by country. So for example, in Mexico, the pump price is somehow regulated. For example, for certain types of fuel, the government set a price for the next 6 months. So what does it mean in Mexico? Whatever the level of the Brent price, the pump price has been set by the government. Then in Brazil, it's a price that is at pump that is also, let's say, more or less administered by the government via Petrobras. And Petrobras suffered a lot in the last few years because the oil price was low versus the Brent. So we'll see how it goes in Brazil, but we don't expect for today to see the pump price going down because Petrobras needs to, let's say, redo its margins when the WTI of the Brent was high. And then you have Europe. And in fact, in Europe, you have a link between the Brent price and the pump price. But it's in Europe where we are, in fact, the least dependent, because it's where we have the formula that depends less or the least on the pump price. So to make a long story short, is the Brent or WTI price going down a good news for Edenred. The answer is no. Have we been working on that for the last 5 years to limit our dependency on that? The answer is yes, by developing pricing formulas that are not dependent, but also by developing the Beyond Fuel strategy. For example, at the group level, I think the level of dependency to the Brent price, i.e., the link is about 6.5%. So at the group level, we have almost 94% of our revenue that is, let's say, ring-fenced versus the evolution of the Brent price. So to conclude, with Brent at $64 today, based on the things in our equation that I shared with you, $64 is not a good news, but that's something we can manage easily at Edenred.

Maybe to complete, and then I will take the first one. So...

Argentina.

Yes. First, on the 6.5% of sensitivity to fuel price at group level, it used to be 8.8% last year and more than 10% 2 years ago. So as Bertrand said, yes, we have decreased our exposure to fuel price. And then on Argentina, so in fact, the question is whether this change of situation on the IRS, so the Argentinian peso will drive to a higher inflation in Argentina. So it's a bit too early to say. But then an increasing peso means that we will have a higher scope, higher FX impact. But if we look at how it evolved over the last 2 days, yes, it increased, but it has not been, let's say, massive. And remember that Argentina is less than 2% of our operating revenue and EBIT.

And we'll come to our last question today from Hannes Leitner from Jefferies.

I'll keep it brief. You mentioned at Q4 results that you wind down some of the BaaS business in the U.K. Maybe you can talk a little bit about the expected outflow on the float and how that has progressed already. And then maybe you can comment on the refinancing of your bond. How come that you had to refinance a higher amount? And for what corporate purposes do you intend to use that? And just then some bookkeeping. Maybe you can give us a rough size of the Gift Solutions and the Edenred Finance given both have been called out as recent headwinds.

Okay. So Hannes, thank you for your brief questions. First of all, as to the refinancing, as we present every semester, you see that we have to refinance between EUR 500 million and EUR 750 million every year. So there is no debt role at Edenred. You will see that it's a regular rhythm every year of between EUR 500 million and EUR 750 million. So the refinancing is things that we will do every year. So we refinanced EUR 750 million. And I can announce you that in 2020 next year, there will be also another refinancing like every year. The good news is the bond has been oversubscribed more than 4x. And so we have been able to reduce the price. And if I remember correctly, the price is at EUR 3.25, which is, in fact, a price that is the right price for an A- company like us. And I'm sure you remember that in the A- category, we are the smallest company, i.e., it's very rare that a company of our size has a signature of A-. And why do we refinance? Because in fact, it was the end of a bond that was issued 5 or 7 years ago. So expect some refinancing every year on a regular rhythm to finance the activity of Edenred. Then as to the BaaS B2C, maybe Cedric, you want to take this one?

I'm not sure I get your question, but I think you mentioned about outflows. So there, I think it's important to mention that there is no free cash flow impact coming from the reduction of the business on the BaaS B2C, because there is 2 impacts in our free cash flow statement. One is on the working capital excluding float and the other impact is on the restricted cash, as the cash we hold in this business is in the restricted cash in our balance sheet. So the fact that we progressively exit this business has no impact on our free cash flow.

Okay. And last bit, just on the Gift Solutions and the Edenred Finance.

So can you remind us your question?

The last question is just like some -- you mentioned Gift Solutions as being a tough comparative. Maybe you can just like quantify how much Gift Solutions is within B&E or within the whole operating business. And then Edenred Finance, you mentioned also as one of the headwinds. Maybe just like the annualized number of those 2 that would be interesting. You called out that Edenred Finance has been a growth driver and now basically has lost a customer. So maybe just to quantify it.

On the Gift Solutions, one way to look at it, but it's to give an idea, we don't provide you exact details, is to look at the operating revenue we generate on Q4 in a given year and compare it with the few quarters before. So it's an approximate and it's not exactly what the amount, but it gives at least an idea.

Okay. Thank you. It's 65 minutes that we are together. So thanks a lot for being with us. As to the Q1 2025 revenue of Edenred, growing at 7%. Let's go for the year 2025. Thank you. Bye-bye.

And this concludes today's conference. You may now disconnect.