Epigral Limited (EPIGRAL) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Epigral Limited Q4 and FY '25 Earnings Conference Call hosted by Emkay Global Financial Services Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Meet Vora from Emkay Global Financial Services. Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Vora.

Thank you. Good evening, everyone. Thank you for joining us on Epigral Limited's Q4 and FY '25 Results Conference Call. We would like to thank the management for giving us this opportunity to host them. On this call, we are joined with Epigral's management, represented by Mr. Maulik Patel, Chairman and Managing Director; Mr. Kaushal Soparkar, Executive Director; Mr. Sanjay Jain, Chief Financial Officer; and Mr. Milind Kotecha, Investor Relations. I would like to invite Mr. Maulik Patel to initiate the proceedings with his opening remarks, post which we will have an interactive Q&A session. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you, Meet. I'm just filling in for -- he just had to step out for an urgent stuff for. He will be coming in and filling in. Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to the call to discuss Epigral's Q4 FY '25 performance. I believe you have had an opportunity to view the earnings presentation that was released earlier this day. Overall, the chemical industry is witnessing some sort of a growth in a few selected products portfolio and a few product baskets, the growth is still at a slower pace. So chemical industry movement is product-specific and region-specific in terms of growth. In the case of Epigral specifically, we have ended FY '25 with the highest ever revenue of INR 2,565 crores and also the highest ever sales volumes. The PAT of INR 357 crores is also the highest ever. We witnessed growth of 33% in revenue and 82% growth in PAT. This is majorly on account of contribution from derivatives and specialty business, for which in the recent past, we have done substantial CapEx and commissioned the plant. This year, we have witnessed volume growth of 11%, which led us to have a sales growth of 33% on account of contribution from higher-value products. Our strategy to diversify into downstream and our selection of high-value products are yielding fruits and creating value for our stakeholders. We ended the year with a revenue contribution from derivatives and specialty business of 54% compared to 45% in the previous year. We commissioned our chlorotoluenes value chain facility in March 2025, and we expect to reach optimal utilization of the plant by the end of this financial year. Once we reach optimal utilization, and also as our expansion announcement of doubling capacity of CPVC resin and epichlorohydrin facility will also reach optimal by that time. We expect the revenue contribution from derivatives and specialty business to reach around 70%. In FY '25, our captive chlorine consumption was around 72%. This is in line with above expansion. Our captive chlorine consumption will also increase and will be optimal, strengthening our integrated complex further. We are geared up completely. We have strengthened our balance sheet and our position to grow further by focusing on import substitute product, further diversifying and increasing derivatives and specialty business and strengthening our integrated complex. We believe that our strategy will help us to have consistent growth and will create value for our stakeholders. I'll now hand over the call to Mr. Sanjay Jain, the CFO, who will take you through the financials. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. Let me take you through the quarterly numbers first. On a year-on-year basis, the sales volume is almost at the same level. However, for derivative specialty business so sales volume grew by 12%. Revenue for quarter 4 FY '25 increased by 20% to INR 631 crores against INR 526 crores in quarter 4 FY '24. This is backed by the volume growth from derivative products and increase in realization. EBIDTA grew by 12% to INR 173 crores against INR 165 crores in Q4 FY '24. This is on account of increase in volume contribution from value-added products and partly on account of improvement in realization of certain products. PAT increased by 13% to INR 87 crores in Q4 FY '25 against INR 57 crores in Q4 FY '24. The margin stood at 14%. For the year as a whole FY '25, we ended the year with highest ever revenue of INR 255 crores. We witnessed growth of 33% compared to FY 2024. Derives and business contributed 54% of the revenue in FY 2025 compared to 45% last year. utilization of the 2025 stood at 81% against 78% in last year. EBITDA grew by 48% to INR 711 crores, leading to EBITDA margin of 28% compared to 25% in FY 2024. The PAT jumped by 82% to INR 357 crores compared to INR 196 crores as on FY 2024 with overall improvement in earnings of the company, the capital employed improved to 25% for the year ending 31st March 2025 compared to 17% as on 31st March 2024. This is including the capital work in progress. If you exclude capital work in progress, the ROCE stands at 28%. Our net debt to EBITDA has remarkably improved to 7x at the end of March 2025 2.0x at the end of March 2024. This is mainly on account of reduction in debt and increase in the overall profitability of the company. Lastly, the rating is also upgraded to CRISIL rating upgraded to CRISIL AA stable from CRISIL AA- positive outlook. Now we can open the floor for question and answer.

[Operator Instructions] We have first question from the line of Dikshant Gupta from GO PMS.

Yes. So my first question was like the realization for caustic soda and some of the products have improved, but for some products like hydrogen peroxide, the realizations have dropped. So what is the plan to maintain margins on that?

See, that's where we have always tried to diversify our business model, getting into different set of products. So current quarter, the hydrogen peroxide relations were down. But at the same time, the derivatives, there were other products which had compensated for that. And that's where the average EBITDA, we have landed up around 28% -- and considering the situation, we believe that on a longer-term basis, 25% is something which is achievable. So I mean, that is something -- business model and the revenue mix will help us to have a sustainable margin growth hence -- I mean, going forward as well.

Okay. And the CapEx for the next year, what are the plans for the CapEx like where will it be deployed?

So capital expenditure, we have announced to expand CPVC resin by adding another 75,000. So we will reach to 1,000 tonnes of capacity for CPVC resin. We are adding epichlorohydrin -- I mean we are expanding epichlorohydren as well. So we will reach from 50,000 to 1 lakh tonnes of capacity by first half of FY '27. So in line with that, this year, we are expecting to spend the CapEx around INR 450 crores...

And for the newly commissioned plants, when will -- when can we expect the commercialization to take place?

So this year, I mean we have commissioned the CPV, CPVC compound and the [indiscernible] plant. So both the -- I mean, all the 3 plants is ramping up on -- and wrapping up. So I guess for chlorotoluenes by end of this year, maybe around December, January, we will reach optimum kind of thing. And CPVC and resin and compound both are also ramping up in line with the demand that is growing.

Okay. And regarding the solar power plant, what are the expected cost savings from it when it will be completed?

So we have already commissioned -- I mean, the 18.34 megawatts, we have already started almost 2 years before this time. So that has already started contributing to the top line -- bottom line. And in terms of cost saving, it is almost, you can say, 25%, 30% cheaper than green price.

Okay. And for now, my last question would be what is the highest margin product? And what percentage of sales are it? And what is the market share of the highest selling product?

So I mean, see, we have diversified products and the margin that we guide is in the range of around 25%, but we avoid giving product-wise numbers.

We have our next question from the line of Nirav Jimudia from Anvil Wealth.

I have a few questions to ask. So first is on the ECU realization. So if you can share what was the ECU realization in Q4? And also, if you can share how much was chlorine negative this quarter?

ECU for the quarter -- for the Q4 was around INR 33,000 and the chlorine was somewhere around INR 5,000 negative INR 5000...

Okay. Also, if you can share like how has been the scenario currently in terms of the ECU realization -- because I guess chlorine has further improved from April. So if you can share your thoughts here, a? And b, what was the capacity utilization of the caustic plant in 4Q of FY '25?

Yes. So yes, chlorine in terms of chlorine, we are seeing a lot of derivatives are expanding. Our internal consumption are also increasing. So going forward, definitely, it looks better. But looking at the long term in India, we believe that now a bigger capacity of caustic soda is coming. We feel now smaller capacity of chlor-alkali will not be feasible in India, looking at the going forward. So chlorine price may improve down the line in India. But as a derivatives, I think right now, all chlorine derivatives because of the agro is revived -- agro business has revived and it is moving on the positive side in terms of CPW is doing good in India, in terms of monochloroacetic is also doing good. So a lot of additional chlorine derivatives also increasing in the capacity in the demand in terms of chlorine or in terms of other derivatives also. So we are looking very positive looking at the long term in terms of the chlorine application in India will increase further down the line. So we don't see the last quarter, the negative margin was there will remain -- will be better off in the coming times. That's what the scenario, but it also depends on the caustic soda demand. And globally, the caustic soda demand will remain robust in terms of the alumina, in terms of the nickel consumption, nickel mining and in terms of the alumina consumption of the caustic soda globally. So that has remained firm globally. And I think the pressure will remain on the chlorine side only because of the caustic strongness. But I think we are going to be better than the last quarter going forward.

Got it, sir. Sir, just to add a bit, you mentioned that our captive chlorine consumption is 76%. So 2 things here. One, how much would be the pipeline sales out of this 76%? And you also mentioned that chlorotoulene is expected to reach around full utilization by the end of this year. So is it safe to assume that once this reaches 100% utilization, our captive chlorine -- or captive chlorine consumption will go up by close to around 100 TPD...

Yes, once the chlorotoulene consumption, at the same time, we are also expanding PVC as well as acichlorene. So once everything will be commissioned to reach that optimum level, definitely, it will take time after commissioning of the plant. But once it reached at optimum level, I think we are 90% going to be internal and captive consumption going forward. And the pipeline customers are hardly -- it is 20% maximum right now. And that is going to remain constant. I don't think it will increase further from this level.

Okay. So effectively, 56% captive chlorine would go up to close to around 70% once all these 3 facilities...

Yes, 70% to 75%, yes.

Got it. Sir, second question is on the peroxide. So I guess we have been operating the plant at around optimum utilization for last so many quarters. So let's assume that after consuming close to around 4,000 metric tons of hydrogen for the captive hydrogen peroxide plant, how are we utilizing the excess hydrogen? So are we converting those hydrogen to the flaker plant? Or are we selling those hydrogen in the outside market? And how you see plans for other downstream products of hydrogen or we'll keep selling hydrogen in the outside market?

So we are selling part of hydrogen, just to give you answer about this, it's not one dedicated answer. We are doing all mix. We have a pipeline customers in the hydrogen peroxide application. We have -- we are selling outside in the market also some part of it. And we are also having a pipeline hydrogen customer also, they are buying from us. And so all mix kind of -- and we are also using in the flaker. So that's how we are managing our hydrogen balance sometimes because of the downstream people who are buying in the hydrogen pipeline, this hydrogen requirements keep on changing and the balance keep on changing. But we are using all multiple kind of options to consume the hydrogen. And I think this will remain as it is going forward also because such a big quantity of hydrogen, I don't think it is possible to manage for one particular application or if you -- even if you -- there is a great demand in terms of the consumer also, you are able to manage everything to sell outside hydrogen, this much quantity because you need a huge infrastructure around hydrogen to sell continuously this much quantity of what you are producing to outside, which is not possible. That's what we see.

Got it. Sir, last question. What was the capacity of the flaker plant...

We have 200 tonnes per day caustic soda play out of what we produce 1,000 TPD of caustic soda plant. And so yes.

And the utilization there would be higher than the overall caustic soda plant?

Their utilization is almost similar level.

We have our next question from the line of Vedant Sarda from Nirmal Bang Securities.

Congratulations on a great set of numbers on a full year basis. Sir, we have a plan of INR 450 crores of CapEx in the current year. [Technical difficulty] INR 250 crores CapEx plan in the current year. The mode of financing we have decided on that?

Financing, INR 450 crores, what we are saying is for financial year 2026. Yes. Yes. And the financing, we are going to do it by debt and debt mainly, if required going forward. But as of now, there is no -- yes, we are going to manage from the internal accruals. Internal accrual only, like no QIPs or debt planning for that? We definitely not. But if required, we can plan from the bank going forward. And the internal is the option.

We have our next question from the line of Pinaki Banerjee from AUM Capital.

Sir, my first question is, can you just give a general view on how the international caustic soda prices are shaping up both at the internal [Technical Difficulty] Can you just give a general outlook on how the international prices -- caustic soda prices are shaping up at the international and both at the domestic level? And what is your current outlook for the future?

So caustic soda prices are remaining firm globally. The reason behind is the downstream chemistry, which is used chlorine globally, which is almost 60% to 65%, that is very low. So somewhere even PVC cycle is on the lowest level right now. And because of that, caustic has remained firm. That is one of the reason. And second biggest reason is the demand from the alumina side and nickel mining side, it is also very strong. So because of these 2 major reasons, we are thinking that the caustic soda will remain firm even current this financial year as well as going forward.

Okay. Sir, my last question is in your presentation, the Page 39, the investments, it's now showing about INR 77 crores. So in the last 2 financial years, it was nil. So can you explain what is -- is it -- are these liquid investments or something else?

So that is a surplus cash that we had that we have parked in debt mutual fund.

So it's liquid. So you are having almost -- with the cash and investment, almost INR 100 crores of surplus cash in your books now?

Yes, yes.

We have our next question from the line of Manish Bhadane from B&K Securities.

So my first question is, as you mentioned in your press release that your specialty business increased to 52% versus 48% Y-o-Y. So why is there a 200 basis points hit in the EBITDA margin?

See, the EBITDA margin, which was in Q4, that was on a higher side considering we were in a cycle where the realization -- I mean, the raw material prices are already low compared to the realization. So that was at 30% in Q4. Even at 28% is something which is, I guess, is a good number. And considering the guidance that we have given, it was around 25%. So it's not a drop of by 2%. In fact, 28% itself is more like a realistic number rather than 30%...

Okay, sir. Got it. Got it. And sir, is there any outlook for the FY '26...

So considering the CapEx that we have commissioned this year, we should be seeing a volume growth around 10% to 15%, and that will drive the value growth as well. And considering the products that we have commissioned is of high value compared to what we were. So the value growth should be on a higher side.

We have our next question from the line of Jena Girani from Swan Investments.

So sir, what could be the revenue contribution from our chloro tolerant project this year?

So we have just commissioned the plant in Q4 FY '24. And this is a product which will take -- I mean, we have started the trial production. It is -- we are sending it to our customers. So approval and everything will take around 6 months to 8 months. So we believe that around end of -- I mean, in Q4 of FY '26, we should reach optimum. So as of FY '25, there is hardly anything which is coming from the chloro...

Okay. And sir, assuming that in H1 FY '27, our ECH and CPVC capacities come on stream, then is it right to assume that our chlorine captive consumption should reach around 85% to 90%...

Yes. So in FY '27, we will commission the plant, so they will run partially and consume -- I mean, they will consume chlorine and hydrogen both. So we assume that 80%, 85% is something definitely...

So sir, post that, do we wish to further expand our capacities within the chlor-alkali space? Or do we wish to enter any new chemistry?

Yes. So in the existing campus, when we have 165-acre land, we are having a 10% to 15%. We have kept for the any derivatives, we can do it further integration and we can reach to 100% integration of the chlorine going forward. But in the new location, which is 1 kilometer away, we have already taken a land of 100 acres. There we are looking for a new value chain and new chemistry. We are not going to enter in the similar chlor-alkali yes.

Sir, have you identified which chemistry we are planning to enter? And would it be possible to share the details?

Not at this moment of time. So once Board will approve it, definitely, we will do it. But yes, we are looking for a couple of chemistries, which we are planning to do it based on the India growth story on the next 10 years.

So what could be the broad CapEx, if you could just quantify in the new chemistry, rough estimate, please?

So overall, see, so you can divide the entire project in the couple of phases also. So that's the planning in terms of the phases, how many phases we will do it. The entire CapEx, it is not yet decided and Board has not approved it. But once the Board will approve, we will do it the phase-wise investment, how much we are going to do it in the new location.

We have our next question from the line of Rohit Sinha from Sunidhi Securities.

Congratulations for a good set of numbers. So some of my questions are already answered. Just a couple from my side. One is on the pricing side for both CPVC and ECH side. How the trends are right now and how we are looking for -- at least for next couple of quarters?

Yes. So looking at the next couple of quarters, we are looking the CPVC on the downward side in terms of the value realization and then the ECH is on the slightly higher side compared to the past quarters because of -- yes, so I think this is what we see in next couple of quarters, yes.

Okay. And possibly our overall CapEx, which we are planning is, I think, will be over by first half of FY '27. Would that be a right assumption? And post that, are we looking to expand this chloroline also if things goes as per our plan?

So chlorotoluene, we just commissioned it. As Milind has mentioned that in the first half, it will mostly going to be the approval of all the derivatives of the chlorotoluene, which we are planning to have. Once we will reach optimum level by end of this financial year, probably we might decide to expand further on the derivative side or the chlorotoluene side probably by that point of time. But till that time, I think we have -- right now, we are -- there is no plan to expand further going forward as of now.

Okay. Okay. And what kind of customers as of now we are targeting for this chlorotouolene -- and if at all, things are for approval, which sort of customers are there domestic or export also, if you can highlight?

It's a mix. Definitely, export customers are there, which are majorly focused on the agrochemical intermediate manufacturing companies and Indian specialty chemical companies who are doing whole manufacturing on behalf of all multinationals, they are going to be our customers, along with some of the pharma intermediate companies as well because I think the agrochemical and the pharma, both having application of chloroluene derivatives, mostly you can say in the 70% and 30% in the ratio and 30% is in the pharma intermediates and 70% belongs to the agro intermediates.

Okay. Okay. So overall, broadly, what we have been highlighting that almost close to 15% -- 15% to 20% kind of volume CAGR growth for next 2 years is possible is still intact given the kind of capacity addition we have? Are we still on...

15% volume growth is possible in next couple of years based on the CapEx, what we are planning in terms of chlorotoluene will reach to optimized level, PPVC additional capacity as well as epichlorohydrin additional capacity.

And sir, just last question on the chlorine side. So as with this capacity, maybe we will be touching 85%, 90% kind of level, then are we looking anything on adding capacity for caustic also going forward? -- if at all, we need further requirements for chlorine or would it be purchased from the outside, if at all it's required?

See, we are not looking for a major possibility for the expansion on the chlor-alkali side, but minor debottlenecking kind of things, we will definitely consider at the right point of time once we reach a 90% chlorine integration.

Okay. Okay. And that, I think, would be done within how much kind of amount CapEx?

It's too early to comment. And it is just a debottlenecking kind of thing. I don't think it is going to be a major one.

We have our next question from the line of Rohan Mehta from Ficom Advisory LLP.

So sir, back in 2022, a few years ago, management had articulated a 5-year revenue vision of about INR 5,000 crores by FY '27, which is essentially implying revenue to double from the FY 2025 base of INR 2,500 crores -- so I wanted to understand, is the INR 5,000 crore revenue still an aspiration for FY '27? And if yes, how would this revenue come about? That's part one. And part 2, what would make up the large contribution to growth in the next 2 years? Essentially, what would be the key drivers?

Right. Coming back -- I mean, this -- the growth that we are expecting in the coming years will be really coming from the volume growth from the CapEx that we have executed -- so like this year -- and FY '26, the growth should come from the additional capacity of CPVC resin that we have done, chloro volumes and also the caustic soda capacity utilization inching up towards 85%. So this volume growth will be for FY '26. And in FY '27, the addition -- the capacities that we have are expanding in CPVC resin and ac chlorohydrin will contribute the volume. And again, that will drive the value growth. So considering that, we believe that on a CAGR basis for next 4 to 5 years, around 15% to 20% of growth is something which is achievable considering the CapEx plan and assuming the demand that we have anticipated might continue. So on a CAGR basis, 15% to 20% growth for next 5 years is something which is visible...

Right, right. And any update on the 3- to 5-year vision you would like to share with investors at this time, barring the 15% to 20% growth that you see for the next 4 years?

I didn't get you. This is for what?

So any vision statement you have for the next 5 years, sir, in terms of revenue, in terms of margin, in terms of growth or where you wish to expand?

Yes. So we are working on a new value chain of the chemistry, which we can expand for next 10 years. And that strategy we are working on. Once the Board will approve, definitely, we will share with that. But that we are doing it for our new location, which we have taken back 2 years back, we have taken a land of 100 acres where we are planning to have a new value chain. So that we are working right now. And once Board will approve, we will disclose to the investors as...

Sure, sure. And also, the INR 5,000 crores, is it something we are expecting in FY '27, FY '28? And the 10% to 15%, I believe, volume growth you said and considering that the 15% to 20% CAGR, which will be essentially value growth, will that be enough to achieve the INR 5,000 crore revenue? Or will we require an additional CapEx beyond what you have currently instituted?

So see, the INR 5,000 crores, the amount that we had given was based on the realization, I guess, 2 years back when everything was at peak. So considering currently, I mean, it will be difficult to give any specific number in a specific year, though we have our internal guidelines and targets that we are looking for, but it will be difficult to give any number specific. But one thing I can give you is the volume growth that we're expecting around 10% to 15% on a CAGR basis for next 5 years.

We have our next question from the line of Dhruv Muchhal from HDFC AMC.

Sir, the first question is on the power cost. So Y-o-Y, we see an increase in the power cost, I believe, and also some increase in Q-o-Q basis. I believe volumes are broadly flat. So what's driving this for the quarter?

Sorry, Dhruv, can you repeat?

The power cost for the quarter seems to have increased and also on QQ Y-o-Y. I believe volumes are broadly flat. So what could be driving this?

Yes. So one major point was compared to last year, the similar quarter, what we generate the solar and wind, which was -- this quarter, I think it was a little lesser in terms of the percentage because it is related to the -- it's a natural phenomenon. So it was a little less unit generation compared to the last year. And the second thing, yes, there is a slightly increase in the coal cost also compared to last year.

Okay. Got it. And sir, second point was on the volume growth for the quarter. So on the presentation, you're mentioning that volumes are broadly flat Y-o-Y, but of that, the derivatives have increased. So I'm just wondering what are the key products where the volumes have declined?

So that is majorly from the CPVC and the ECH because last -- I mean, last year this quarter...

On a Y-o-Y basis.

Yes, on Y-o-Y basis. So last year, this quarter, ECH was at a lower utilization, which has reached around 85%, 90%. And CPVC also last year, the capacity was around 30,000 only, whereas from 1st April of last year -- 1st April of FY 1st April of 2024, additional capacity of 45,000 also came. So that also contributed in terms of volume. So on the derivative side, when we say growth, that is majorly coming from these 2 products...

Yes. But sir, what are the products which saw a decline Y-o-Y? So these 2, I understand saw meaningful growth ECH and chlor.

As you mentioned, hydrogeneronxide has slightly declined compared to last year Y-o-Y.

So the realizations were also lower and volumes are also lower. That was the decline.

Yes, yes.

Got it. And lastly, just a clarification. You're guiding for 10% to 15% volume growth for FY '26. So this primarily comes from your CPVC and ECH ramp-up. I believe chlorotoluene will come probably at the end of the quarter. But for the year, broadly, these are the 2 key drivers for volume...

I think chlorotoluene is also going to start, but it is not going to be the major contributor in this financial year, but it is also going to contribute in terms of the revenue and top line. And majorly, it is coming from the CPVC additional capacity, what we have commissioned in last year, I think this will pick up in this financial year and as well as the ACH capacity will run on the full fled. And the caustic also we can run -- caustic also the efficiency of the -- it will also improve in terms of the operation.

Okay. So we have made some changes that we can optimize it better, is it?

See... Yes, every 8 years, you normally do a major change in the caustic soda membrane and electrolyzers that we have already done. That is going to be completed in May. So probably from next quarter onwards, the operation efficiency of the caustic soda plant will also improve.

We have our next question from the line of Parth Mehta from Vallum Capital.

Just a bookkeeping question. This year, the inventory has been INR 125 crores higher than the previous year. If you can just help me which products do we have such high inventory?

So inventory has gone up in line with the -- I mean, the sales as well. And yes, it is a bit on a higher side, but we prefer to give the product-wise inventory breakup. But if you consider in terms of the days of inventories, that is in line with what it was in FY '24 -- so if you see our inventory that was around 45 days in FY 2024. So in FY 2025, it is 47 days. So whatever it has increased, it is in line with the increase in sales.

We have our next question from the line of Tanish from Boring AMC.

Am I audible? Yes. Yes. So I wanted to understand more on the CPVC. You said that the pricing looked on the downward side in the coming quarters. So what is driving this?

Sorry... The pricing because of -- yes, there is a slight demand growth is less compared to last year in terms of the CPVC demand. And the second because of the real estate sector is a little bit lower side right now in terms of the growth. And the second is the raw material price has also gone down for the CPVC, which is the PVC. So PVC is on the lowest cycle globally right now. So because of these 2 reasons, we are thinking that it is going to reduce in terms of the revenue in terms of the CPVC.

So do we see our margins being affected in this segment?

So margins, again, it will be in line, considering the raw material price has gone down in line with the realizations. It will be where it was.

We have our next question from the line of Rohit Nagraj from B&K Securities.

Congrats on a good set of numbers. First question is in terms of slightly longer term from a strategy perspective. Once we go to FY '27, we will be generating a meaningful amount of cash flows. So from an expansion perspective, will we be looking at only the internal cash flows? Or will we be going for still leveraged CapEx? Just to get a broader perspective on this. I know it's slightly longer term, but how the management is thinking about this.

Rohit, for the CapEx side, normally, we always give a priority once we decide the CapEx and going forward, even though revenue and the finance, we can manage from the internal accruals, but it is not go hand-in-hand with the CapEx, what we are planning to do it because CapEx, once you start and we would like to go on the same speed without any interference. So if required, we might go for a debt, even though internal accruals, it looks okay in terms of the yearly basis. But sometimes in the peak cycle of the CapEx, you might need to borrow from the bank. So we can -- we are having the same. Once we decide, we don't want to disturb the project because of the finance, even though if we are able to manage from the internal accruals. So that's why we always keep a priority for the project execution rather than the finance...

The second question is again from the broader perspective, given that there will be a couple of large PVC projects which are coming and mostly backward integrated, there will be an availability of caustic, although they will be consuming chlorine. So do we see that the ECUs will remain closer to, say, 30 plus/minus levels given that maybe chlorine realizations will go up, but availability of caustic will keep the caustic prices down. So to that extent, the ECU will be, say, INR 30 plus/minus. So what is your broader thinking on that perspective?

Normally, if you see the caustic soda price in India, which is at par with the global prices of caustic soda. So definitely, what will -- and majority, the players who are coming in a much bigger capacity that focus, they are not able to manage locally. So definitely, the major volume will go out in the global market. And it will be adjusted according to the global prices of the caustic soda at that point of time. And the chlorine, we believe because of these 2 capacities of caustic soda is coming up, we believe the chlorine may go on the positive side. So that's our point of view looking at the long term because even though the smaller capacity, which is required for the setting up a plant of chlor-alkali will not be feasible going forward and economy of scale of caustic soda has already gone up in terms of the setting up a greenfield facility. So looking at the long term, we are looking the caustic will definitely will have excess a globally. But at the same time, the chlorine price will move forward in terms of the international level also, which was the lowest right now in India.

This would be the last question for today. And I now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments. Over to you, sir.

In conclusion, I would like to convey that we are moving in line with our strategy through our expansion plans and diversification in terms of multiproduct catering various industries, we are targeting consistent growth. I would like to thank you all for joining us here today. Please feel free to reach out to our IR team if there are still any unanswered questions. Thank you, everyone, for your participation.

Thank you. On behalf of Emkay Global Financial Services Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.