Equites Property Fund Limited (EQU) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everybody, and welcome to the Equites pre-close presentation, Feb 2025. Really looking forward to engaging with everybody through the presentation, but we also have a day full of interaction as well. So meeting with some of you later being hosted very kindly by Standard Bank Securities. And then tomorrow, we'll be having a roadshow of some of the assets that we'll be talking about within the presentation. So I think a great opportunity to firstly present information, but then also to have the opportunity to interact with you all over the next couple of days. So on that note, let's get going. And maybe we can start with the period in review, which I think really talks to what we told you a year ago and what have we actually done. And I think this slide really talks well about that. I mean, I think we sat this time last year where we spoke about this very deep pipeline that we had of significant developments in SA, and we can report back a year down the line that within the last year, we've completed almost ZAR 3 billion worth of developments. We spoke about the recycling of assets within the portfolio as a consequence of the need to free up that capital to be put into the newer developments that we spoke about above. But I think what it also talks to -- it's really talking about the ability to sell assets and still achieve meaningful values. And I think the sale of almost ZAR 2.4 billion worth of assets within the realms of our book values, and when you talk to book values, we do need to take cognizance of the fact that over a period of time, book values do change and market conditions change. And as a consequence, values go. Part of the reason that Equites resolved, I think, several years ago now to have our portfolio externally valued twice a year was to ensure that there was complete transparency in those book values. And I think that is shown by what we've achieved in the marketplace and obviously being able to recycle that capital. We continue to optimize, obviously, the performance of the portfolio. And I think we keep telling you that we can't believe that we're still at 0% vacancy, but it's been a few years now. And the asset management team, obviously, ably headed up by Riaan, have done incredible work over the last 12, 24 months, where we've had significant renewals coming through both what we define as the [ Interop ] portfolio and the Waterfall portfolio and the quantity of renewals that we've achieved and where we have lost tenants, we've relet those buildings effectively on the existing tenant vacating the premises. So unbelievable work has been done there, and Riaan will talk about the details of that a bit later on in the presentation. We continue to increase alternative sources of revenue and obviously, mainly through solar generation. We continue to explore the opportunities on the asset management side as well, and we have done nothing meaningful in that regard in the prior year, but the year ahead may show different things. But the solar generation obviously has been very, very good. We continue to generate a significant amount of solar. And you can see we've gone from 20.2MW to 25.3MW. We'll talk a bit more detail about that a bit later on in the presentation. But obviously, that new solar that's coming online now is starting to be a revenue generator for Equites, and that will benefit Equites going forward in a meaningful way. And then the final element in terms of what we've always said is that the prioritization of the balance sheet. We completely understand that the only way Equites can move forward in a meaningful and healthy way, apart from obviously being a best-in-class developer, best-in-class landlord, and all the basics around the property function. Ultimately, as an organization, our balance sheet remains critical to us having the credibility in the marketplace to drive a process of delivering returns for our shareholders and consequently also being able to produce a share return over time that reflects the value of the organization. And in that, obviously, having a loan-to-value which affords us the opportunity to continue to add cutting-edge property to our portfolio, but at the same time, doesn't make our balance sheet lazy and allows us to generate supplemental income through a managed process of debt allocation. So as you can see, the pathway, I think, over the last maybe 2, 2.5 years, we've been talking about the pathway of taking loan-to-value back into the 30s. And it will fluctuate, obviously, and the window for us is really 35% to 40%. But as you can see, we've gone from 39.6% at financial year-end '24, and we will be circa 37% this year as a consequence of some of the sales and the reallocation of that capital to brand-new buildings, which have also generated value for us in the period in question. Obviously, the final element of this is that the treasury team has done incredible work, obviously, ably headed up by Laila in terms of what we've managed to achieve in the debt space. And you can see that our cost of debt continues in very, very trying circumstances, continues to sort of reflect very favorably on the organization. So how does that translate into the operating context that we're actually living in? And maybe we can start with the U.K. And I think if I can maybe frame this, I think our sector was so unbelievably powerful through the COVID years that notwithstanding the fact that 2024 ended up being the fifth best year of takeout in the history of data collection, if you exclude the 2 years of the pandemic years. Notwithstanding that, there seems to be a sense of, "Okay, well, the market is maybe not as buoyant as it was." But I think talking to the fifth best year since data collection started, I mean, really reflects a really healthy year in very trying circumstances. And we'll talk about the trying circumstances maybe a bit more aptly when we look at the graphs on the right-hand side of the presentation. So yes, supply obviously did rise. And I think a lot of that supply rise has been tenants coming to the end of the cycle within buildings and basically making decisions to move into first-generation products. And I think a lot of pressure has come from the sustainability metrics and the ESG metrics being placed on, especially some of the bigger and global organizations operating in this space. Whilst supply has risen to about 7.18%, which is the highest since 2011. So it is high. I think if we were to break that up, I mean, you can see that only 3.1% of that is actually new generation supply. Now the point I'm trying to make here is that the second-generation supply may need to reinvent itself and the new-generation supply is really the supply that one should be looking at as being within the realms of the marketplace that Equites is playing in. So we'd like to isolate it to that. Whilst the supply side at 3.1% is higher than it has been for a while, there seems to be still pressure on rentals and rentals are growing at above inflation. The expectation is that at the moment, all data and all opinions is talking to an average of about 4% increase per annum through to 2028. We are a prime yield in the U.K., I mean, the more optimistic people are pushing a 5% number, maybe the more pessimistic people are pushing a 5.25% number. I mean I think that the range between the 2 is fairly reflective of where the market is. And obviously, there are other factors that do play into a 5% or a 5.25%, and that could be covenant strength. It could be the length of the lease to the termination. It could be even the rent review clause could have a bearing on where that sits. And then obviously, the final element in that could also be location with certain locations within the United Kingdom being much tighter from a land potential or future potential than other locations. And so all these other factors do come to bear. Now I think the critical part that really talks to the U.K. market is that the U.K. market, but generally speaking, or the property market is very correlated to the U.K. gilt market. And as you can see, as we went through 2024, there was a strong feeling that 2024 was going to be a launch pad and 2025 was really going to be a very, very successful year and the market would regain some of its past strengths, if you like. In that, though, you can see that the 10-year U.K. gilt in graph 2 here on the right-hand side of the page, you can see around September '24, the gilt was sort of sitting in sort of the 3.7%, 3.8% range. And anything under 4% was, for a sustainable period of time, was going to drive prime yields to definitely the 5% and potentially was going to start showing prime yields actually entering the realms of 4%. Unfortunately, the budget that was presented at the back end of last year had a consequential impact on the U.K. gilts. And as you can see, they did spike in January to almost 5%. They have come off somewhat, but would require to come off significantly more than that. And the expectation is hopefully that the markets and the global markets do start seeing the opportunity of potentially more meaningful growth and a more correlated fiscal policy in the U.K., which will allow for these gilts to be more appropriately priced and consequently have a much better impact on the future of commercial property, generally speaking, in the U.K. From an Equites point of view, obviously, we concluded the Amazon sale in Peterborough. We sold the product back to Amazon. You can see we sort of sold it more or less in the mid-range of 5.17% and obviously very pleased with that sale, which obviously also benefited the loan-to-value as we spoke about earlier. We are in the final throes of a rent review with PUMA at our property up at Castle Donington. And we were hoping to be able to be in a position to announce it as being closed. It's not quite there, but we are very, very close. And I think we will certainly be presenting that number at the final year-end presentation in May. And then the Roche rent review is also effective from this month, and that was linked to RPI. So there's not really a negotiation. We were just -- we've just finalized the final piece of data that came for the month of January out of Stats U.K., and we will be effectively closing out that legal position with Roche within the next couple of weeks. So -- but obviously, there also a nice healthy rent review with regards to the Equites portfolio. In SA, as you can see from the historics that we've continued to have a successful development pipeline coming through the process. The industrial sector from all independent metrics and surveys remains the sector within the commercial property market, which has seen the most robust returns. And as you can see, MSCI have sort of put out some findings on that. And obviously, we will indirectly be the beneficiaries of that performance. But obviously, where does the outperformance come from? It comes from, obviously, retailers investing significantly in their supply chain, the consequence of artificial intelligence, the consequence of a stronger drive to an online offering, which is quick, efficient and inexpensive, requires certain investments. And that obviously is then putting pressure on the third-party logistics organizations that feed into that, but also it's putting pressure into -- especially on the grocery side, the -- sorry, the fast-moving consumer good guys who also are needing to start looking at their supply chains to be able to match the expectation of the retailers out there. We obviously are well positioned to be involved in most of those negotiations. And obviously, we do not have land in every single position in the country, so I won't be able to do every deal, but we do believe that within the realms of our landholdings that we will be present and be able to do several of those transactions as they come through the system. Rentals obviously seem to be robust. That's a function, obviously, of a lack of supply in the first instance but also a lack of land supply coming through the system. So as land supply gets used up, there is obviously less and less of it coming through the system as a consequence of many factors, including the availability of providing services to these pieces of land. But more importantly, I think the low vacancies have also been coupled with very little speculative build. And what we've seen is we've seen obviously some significant build cost inflation come through the system and the consequence of all these factors, we are seeing the rental growth pressures to continue to be on the upward side. As I said a little bit earlier, the lack of land and the difficulty of the municipal infrastructure situation is obviously creating a supply gap there. What's quite interesting on this particular slide, you'll see the picture of the Shoprite DC on the left and the TFG DC on the right. I spoke at the beginning that we will be having a site visit tomorrow. And in fact, we will be entering both those 2 facilities and obviously very excited to be taking the shareholders that have accepted the invite through those facilities. And I think we will be a very insightful morning with everybody and obviously thank our tenants for giving us access and also providing us with their team and their staff to educate us all in terms of what a difference these facilities have made to their business. As for the SA portfolio, we seem to be the beneficiaries of, obviously, the growing demand, as we've spoken about already on several occasions in the presentation, outstripping the supply. And obviously, we are confident that we will get our fair share of that. Development spend over the current year has been about ZAR 1.6 billion. And you'll see on the right-hand side, you'll see the developments that were completed during the year. And obviously, even the 2 speculative developments have been fully let and obviously really continues to speak volumes, a, to the demand drivers, but also, I think, to the product that Equites puts out and notwithstanding that, the rental levels that we've managed to achieve. The bulk of our spend during 2026 -- financial year '26 will be in Gauteng. We've got a significant allocation to the R21, but we also have a couple of parcels of land in the Meadowview area where we'll be looking to unlock opportunities there. And then we continue to look to add to our strategic land bank, but we currently sit in a position of having sufficient land to be able to respond to various opportunities that are coming through the system through the Jet Park and obviously, the R21 bit contained land availability. In terms of ESG, I mean, I spoke about it earlier, but just to go into a little bit more detail, obviously, we continue to drive a process through adding solar to every single one of our developments is par for the course. But with the consequence of the -- pardon me -- the selling program that we've had also in the last sort of 18 to 24 months, you've seen that the number of our buildings that have solar continues to grow. And from last year, we sat at 44% now we're sitting at 67%. Obviously, it's really positive. You can see the quantity of solar that we continue to generate. We've gone from 20MW to 25MW. And obviously, this will continue to grow as we continue to roll out developments. And obviously, this translates to, I mean, a production of 27.9 gigawatt hours during the last year, which my team obviously wanted to give some sort of reference point. But as per Eskom's published rates, you can see that, that would be enough power to supply 70 sort of low-income houses for a whole year. So not an insignificant contribution to the process. We've signed 6 PPAs and those generating revenues will start coming through during financial year '26. And obviously, what's really positive and really encouraging from an Equites point of view is obviously is the IRRs that they will be generating will be north of 20%. Just wanted to add one little context to our supply side here is that we are working extremely hard to create our first sewage plant as well on one of our parks up in the Johannesburg in Gauteng, should I say. And what that will result is it will result in us reducing our water consumption in the buildings by about 75% with the ability to recycle that water basically back into the non-potable part of the building, also all the landscaping and also the truck washes that most of these facilities would have. Now whilst this is especially within the Gauteng area where water is becoming a great topic of conversation, we are endeavoring to get this off the ground. But like all these things, we had a very similar problem when we first started doing solar several years ago where municipalities were not really very encouraging of us putting solar because they saw us effectively as a revenue breaker. And very similarly to that, we are currently facing a few difficulties in terms of that revenue breaking mentality within the municipality rather than seeing us as someone that effectively is enhancing the availability of water for other purposes. So apologies that it's not in the presentation. We will update that. I sort of came to me at the eleventh hour that I thought it would be important to share that with you. So that is progressing well, and we hope to even by year-end presentation that we hope to have resolved the impasse with the municipality we're currently trying to get across the line. And we are obviously very pleased with being at a groundbreaking position there. I'm going to hand over to Riaan now, and he's going to take us through some of the detail of what the portfolio is doing and what it's currently sitting at and some of the highlights of which obviously, the management team are extremely proud and pleased with.

Thank you, Andrea. You would have noted Andrea referred to first-generation and second-generation buildings in his overview of the U.K. And we thought we'd share with you some detail of some of our older buildings in our asset management presentation. Often, we get the question, but what would happen to buildings when they're 10-year plus old? Will you be able to achieve rentals? Are they becoming out of date? Do they still meet modern logistics requirements? And interestingly, over the past 12 months in this financial year, we concluded 5 lease renewals. Those were existing buildings where tenants were happy to extend the lease. And 3 of the 5 assets that you see on the right-hand side were older than 10 years. Interestingly, if you see, it was in total, 44,000 square meters, and we managed to renew those leases at an average rental for the warehouse component at ZAR 88 a square meter and the office component at ZAR 160 a square meter. This illustrates a theory that we have subscribed to for a very long time, and that is in South Africa. A portfolio of the quality of the Equites won, which meets modern logistics requirements, there's no impact on the rental when the building is older. And we are achieving the exact same rentals in our renewals as we are achieving on new builds. Secondly, we've also looked at our increase in rental per square meter, and we estimate that at about 9% per annum over the past 3 years post-COVID, which is also very encouragingly. And then the final aspect that I just want to address to put context. When you look at our average rentals of our portfolio in our financials, in our integrated report, they are significantly skewed because of the large Shoprite portfolio. You would remember that we concluded the Shoprite transactions during COVID, and they were yield-based transactions. And with the current rental growth that we are experiencing, some of those rentals are significantly below market. We are obviously very pleased that with these renewals, we've managed to keep our vacancies at 0. There were obviously also other transactions Andreas referred to the spec builds that we've let and also 1 or 2 buildings where tenants moved out where we've replaced them with new tenants. And also those leases were concluded more or less in line with the numbers we've shared with you on the slide. The second slide I want to talk to you about is the disposal update. As you know, we've communicated a lot of information around our disposal program over the past 2 years. In essence, we decided to sell assets for 2 reasons. Firstly, to continuously improve the portfolio by selling older noncore specialized and assets which may not meet modern ESG requirements. And secondly, the obvious need to strengthen the balance sheet continuously and keeping an LTV level that enable us to fund our development pipeline, which has been significant over the past years. In SA, over the past financial year, we've concluded disposals and implemented disposals. In other words, those properties have been transferred to the tune of ZAR 858 million, in line with the book values, illustrating the integrity of our valuation process. And we've also concluded legal agreements in respect of a further ZAR 570 million worth of assets. I think with these disposals, we're reaching the conclusion of our disposal program. And I think we are strengthening our balance sheet to the extent that we can comfortably go into the next financial year and meet our financial requirements in terms of further investments in our development program. And we've been very, very -- not one of the assets that we put to market didn't receive a good response in terms of interested buyers. The sector is still the one sector where very few transactions are concluded where top A-grade assets are traded. And it's also reflective if you look at the slide there, the prices that we achieved for the 2 waterfall assets were obviously exceeded our expectations and so those 2 buildings are the Massbuild building is older than 10 years. The Cotton On building is about 3 years. So we were very pleased on the pricing that we achieved. That's all for me. Thank you, Andrea. Thank you.

I'm going to hand over to Laila now probably with the part of the presentation that most of you are probably most interested in. And no doubt, she's got some fantastic news for us.

Thank you, Andrea. There is some really positive news to start off with. And for a while, we've been talking about the reduction in LTV and the actions that we are taking to reduce that LTV. And Riaan spoke to it in some detail, just detailing the various assets that we disposed of. But I think to start off, let's just paint the picture. At August '24, we were at a 41% LTV, and we spoke about how we were going to reduce this to be in the 30s. I am pleased to report that as a result of the actions undertaken during the period, there was a 5.4% total decrease in LTV, and then we spent some money. So that was increased the LTV by 1.4%, which results in a net 4% decrease in LTV. Now the blocks look small on screen, but each one of those takes a significant amount of time and effort. So ZAR 0.9 billion of disposals in South Africa, of which we still expect ZAR 570 million to transfer in Feb. The transactions have been lodged, and we're waiting. We're just playing a waiting game now. But for all intents and purposes, we've assumed that these will transfer by the 28th of Feb. Those disposals in combination result in the LTV decreasing by 2%. There were some developments in South Africa as well as a purchase of a parcel of land in Riverfields of ZAR 146 million. That total of ZAR 0.7 billion of spend has resulted in a 1.4% increase in the LTV over the period. As you all know, we concluded the transaction with Amazon, where we sold our Amazon Peterborough asset to them. And the net proceeds after the repayment of debt have resulted in ZAR 0.9 billion of proceeds, which reduced the LTV by 1.9%. And then we had a very successful, it depends on who you ask, but a successful DRIP program. And even though the DRIP was dilutive to NAV, the 66% take-up resulted in the retention of ZAR 358 million, which resulted in a 1.5% decrease to the LTV. So in summary, we are very comfortable with where we are, where we expect to be at Feb. This does not take into account any property revaluations or FX impact, but this is where we expect to end up at Feb '25. If we just move on to balance sheet management and some more good news coming through. Once again, we've priced exceptionally well in the debt capital markets. So if we look at where we placed our November auction, 3-year debt was placed at JIBAR plus 110. This is 19% lower than September '23 than the preceding year. So not only do we benchmark ourselves to other REIT counters, but more importantly, we look at where our debt is rolling off and where we're able to reprice that debt. So a 19 bps decrease is significant, and that translates directly into distribution per share. The 5-year money that we placed was at JIBAR plus 1.25. And again, this was 10 bps lower than just over -- no than 3 months prior. So we are very, very pleased with the outcome of that auction. Over the last 3 reporting periods, so the graph on the right at the bottom, we've tracked how -- what has happened to our margin as well as what's happened to the average tenure of our debt. What we've seen is that there's been a 0.5% decrease in the SA weighted average cost of debt over the last 3 reporting periods, so from August '23 to now. And that includes all the fees and other costs. We have had some rate decreases, but I think the largest portion of that decrease as a result of the debt margins coming in, a result of us repaying older debt and the fact that we've taken quite a progressive and very active management to approaching our interest rate hedging. 85% of our long-term debt is hedged at the moment. Our treasury policy specifies that at least 80% of our debt has to be hedged. It's slightly over the minimum band. And what we do is we identify opportune moments in time where we see that the swap curve is favorable, and that's when we'll increase that hedging beyond the 80%. But at all times, a minimum of 80% will be hedged. 1.8% of our total debt is short term. And of this, 94% is hedged. So very safe, very comfortable and not a tremendous amount coming up for renewal in the next 12 months. At the moment, we have a 26% exposure to SA rates movements. So there is still some upside even though we are hedged, if there are further rate cuts, there will be some benefit and coming through to the distribution. And then 89% of the U.K. debt is fixed at 3.92%, and that's colloquially what we referred to as the Aviva portfolio and the remainder, the HSBC -- the Aviva debt, sorry, and the remainder, the HSBC debt is fully hedged. So I just want to pause on that graph on the right at the bottom because what it shows is that over the last 6 months, and if we just look at the last column, we've had ZAR 2.2 billion of debt that's matured. We've taken out ZAR 1.6 billion worth of new debt -- so we've replaced that, but we've also repaid some of the older debt. And then our spread over the period, so that arrow shows that our spread has decreased from 159 basis points over JIBAR to 122. And that's significant. I think that's what we're looking at, and that's what we're really trying to show as a result of where we're able to place debt, how our margins have tightened. And then whilst doing that, it's not like we're taking out shorter-term debt, we've also managed to extend the tenor by a year. So all in all, very pleased with the way that we've managed our treasury. And I think Warren and Justin have done a phenomenal job. And I think by virtue of all of our activities in managing the portfolio, we've managed to give a lot of strength to the portfolio underlying these spreads and these refinancing.

Thank you, Laila. And look at how quickly we've come to prospect. So I mean, I think if I can just bore you with a little bit of maybe some deeper stuff that maybe is not reflected in the numbers, but is very reflective in the organization. I think, firstly, I'd like to compliment my management team, my 2 co-execs, but also all our senior managers. As an organization, we've been going on a very deep recognition of skills and providing an environment to enhance those skills within the organization, but not only enhance them also provide a platform to retain those skills. I think the inclusion of several of the team members into the effective high-level decision-making of the organization has been absolutely critical for us as an organization to have gone through the last 2 years, which have been very difficult years for an Equites with certain macro environments effectively not being conducive to a business plan and strategy that was put in place, obviously, in a period where the market was very much in our favor, like all these things, when one changes certain strategic intents in property, it's not like you can flick a switch and you can just change. It is a process, but also it's a process in which a lot of thought needs to be put in. And also, I think it's a process in which you need to have the ability to through the unlock of more information in the process, be able to constantly sort of rationalize your decision-making, improve it somewhat and not be hindered by a preconceived idea. So I really want to compliment my entire team and the Board for that matter for the extensive work that's been undertaken in the last couple of years. I think the benefits of this work we'll probably only see in 2 or 3 years' time. But if it hadn't been done, the reality is the situation of the organization will be very different today. I think the biggest thing that I'd like to say about Equites is that in a market that has really, really changed, the one thing that we've shown is patience is that we haven't rushed into making any big, big decisions, which potentially could have thrown the whole ship. So in that patience, we've been -- we've afforded ourselves a time frame to be able to make really, really good decisions. And for that, looking back on the last 2.5 years, personally, there's very few things that I would do differently to with the benefit of hindsight even. So I think that really talks very powerfully to a ship that really is writing itself and it's really aiming in the right direction. And the Basingstoke land, I think, is something that has been on everybody's mind with regards to Equites for many years now. The patience that we've shown and the fact that we've taken it through planning and we finally do have planning, notwithstanding the fact that we've got planning, we still need to be patient in the process of making a final decision in terms of what we will do with it. And time is our friend in this matter. As you can see, the balance sheet is healthy, which affords us the time to make a decision, which will be to the biggest benefit of Equites and Equites' shareholders going forward. So on that, I want to sort of reconfirm our guidance. It remains unchanged. It remains as per -- I think our interim statement was that we will be at the upper end of that guidance. I want to reconfirm that we will continue to have a 100% payout ratio. I do believe this time last year, there was -- the rumor mill was thick. So I'd like to just put paid to that, that the 100% payout ratio will remain. And I know that there are many shareholders out there that I speak to on a continuous basis that, that metric is very important to them. So I want to reassure them that, that will remain. And then with the loan-to-value effectively sort of between 37% and 38% at year-end, depending on some transfers that will go through or won't go through either in the end of February or in the first week of March, like all these things they're out of our control. We're obviously really pleased with where the balance sheet is and the opportunities that are coming through and the landholding and positioning that we do have in South Africa does bode really well for the foreseeable future. As historically stated, we will not be investing any further new capital into the U.K. The U.K. portfolio is performing extremely well. The rent reviews have been going extremely well. But obviously, the hedging policy means that all the uptick that we're getting out of the portfolio is effectively going straight to the bottom line, which obviously is very, very encouraging. So on that note, I think that brings the presentation to a close. I know Riaan is manning the thought there on the questions. So I'm going to hand over to him on some questions that may be coming through.

Laila, a question for you from Mweisho from Standard Bank. Laila, with positive sentiment on U.K. rates, where are you expecting U.K. cost of debt to be for FY '26?

There won't be any change in the U.K. cost of debt. As we said, the Aviva debt is fully hedged at 3.92%. So that's fixed. And our HSBC debt is also fully fixed. So we don't expect any change or we're fully hedged, sorry. So we don't expect any change in the U.K. cost of debt.

Thank you, Laila. And then Paolo, one for you, Andrea. Do you have data center development ambitions specifically in South Africa?

Historically, we haven't. I mean we have spoken to many data centers. What we found in South Africa, a lot of the data center owners actually want to own the real estate, too. And for us, to be involved in something that has no secondary use at the end of its term, notwithstanding the fact that you may get a 15-, 20- or 25-year lease probably doesn't fit into the deployment of our capital. We see enough opportunity in logistics facilities, which is our core focus.

Thanks, Andrea. I mean Laila, Nazeem asked, can you please remind us what remains in the U.K. portfolio, value number of assets and asset yields?

I think that's a bit hard to -- but I mean, we can talk about what remains in the U.K. Andrea, do you want to tap the Aviva portfolio, HSBC?

Carry on. You've seen it as much as I have.

So we've got the 5 assets that relate to the Aviva portfolio. So that's GXO, PUMA, DHL, Reading, DPD no sorry -- Roche Burgess Hill and Evri. And then in terms of the HSBC portfolio, we've got 2 assets left. So there we've got DPD, Burgess Hill and we've got DHL, Leeds. And that's basically what's remaining in the U.K. What I will do is I'll just copy a note afterwards to tell you about the values and how that compares to the debt, ZAR 105 million Aviva debt, ZAR 13 million HSBC debt, and then we'll just talk about the asset values. But that's basically what we have left in the U.K.

I think headline plus/minus 50% value plus/minus, maybe a little bit below that.

Okay. I mean that concludes there's 1 or 2 questions, which are very detailed orientated, which we'll get back to you. I see no further questions that we can answer offhand. So thank you very much, Andrea.

Awesome. Thank you, Riaan. Thanks for that. Thank you to all of you for having spent the morning with us. We look forward to seeing some of you at the vineyard now for a chat. And again, thanks to Mweisho at Standard Bank Securities that will be hosting us. And obviously, will be hosting us tomorrow as well on the roadshow, which I personally am very excited to be able to share the real estate with you guys. I think if you have any sort of interest in this specific sector of the market, I don't think you'll be disappointed tomorrow. So all the best, and we'll see you in May for the year-end presentations.