Evotec SE (EVT) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

July 28, 2023

Deutsche Boerse Xetra DE Health Care Life Sciences Tools and Services guidance_update 44 min

Earnings Call Speaker Segments

Werner Lanthaler

executive
#1

Good morning. This is Werner speaking. I'm here together with our CFO, Laetitia, and I'm here together with Volker, who is in charge of Investor Relations. Giving a business update during the summer is essential because we want to have a true and fair view of our business at every moment in time. After experiencing our cyberattack, we have collected all information now. And with this, we are in a very good position to bring you up to speed with where we are in our business. And we will, out of our criminal cyberattack emerge stronger than ever before. If you go to Page 2 on the presentation that we have uploaded, you see that we have started the year with exceptional progress. And 2003 (sic) has shown us that it is possible to generate significant upfronts, significant milestones out of our innovation-driven transactions that we have closed with Bristol-Myers, that we have closed in the field of cell therapy with Janssen, that we have closed in the field of induced preprotein stem cells with Sernova and that we have closed in a huge technology partnership with Sandoz, where altogether, we are collecting milestones, upfronts and future significant royalties. This is very important because this is a strong element driving Action Plan 2025 where milestones play an essential role to drive profitability. So 2023 so far was an exceptional start when it comes to transaction, but it was also a year, or, as we have called it here, a coin of 2 sides. Because on the other side, if you go to Page #3, you see that on April 6, we were hit by a criminal cyberattack where the criminal cyberattack caused us to go the maximum security step for our partners. And with this, we decided to really contain all measures and to bring all measures in place to make the safest and best and most efficient Evotec ever for our partners. This does, of course, not come without cost, and that's the cost that you will see in the next couple of pages. What I can tell you now is that after an amazing reaction, and again, also on this situation, great thank you to our partners, but also great thank you to our internal team of how we handled the cyberattack, we are now back at a situation where we have all processes switched on or where we are in the process to have full visibility, how processes will be switched on. This is especially true for our development business, where we are still in the final stages of switching on all GXP systems to bring back our production as it should be. So from today's perspective, the cyberattack is behind us, and we are in full rebuild mode, which is, I think, important news for the next pages to follow. When it comes to the quantitative implication of this, let me bring you to Page #4 and at this stage, hand over to Laetitia, who will bring you into the start of the year and also how we now assess the situation.

Laetitia Rouxel

executive
#2

Thank you, Werner. Slide #4, we had an exceptionally strong start of the year. As just mentioned, revenues in Q1 2023 executed EUR 250 million, which implies a growth of 31% versus Q1 2022. A robust underlying base business as well as the extended and the expanded collaborations with BMS in euro degeneration and the targeted protein degradation have contributed to this excellent performance. As the cyber hit us in the first week of Q2 on April 6, the entire Q2 2023 was impacted by the deliberate shutdown. While the data available is sufficient to update on our model for this year, which now comes with rather ranges at this stage, it would be too early to provide an EBITDA figure at this stage. All systems and the prioritization of forensic analyses before restarting the business led to a productivity of some 10% in April, the productivity improvements over the remainder of the quarter as well as the signing of the technology partnership with Sandoz resulted in revenues in the range of EUR 160 million, EUR 170 million for the Q2. The range we are providing today is related to the pending consolidation of local entities' results as well as the review of our auditors. But what can be said at this stage is that revenues have reached about EUR 375 million to EUR 385 million in the first 6 months of the year. Based on product levels seen over the course of Q2 and comparing results with internal forecasts, it's fair to assume that missed revenues amounted to approximately EUR 70 million in the second quarter. Moving to the outlook of the full year, Page 5. The incremental business derived from new contracts with BMS and Sandoz led to adverse payments that we are not initially applying in this order of magnitude. Our regular review of our economic situation, our order book and our guidance resulted in an updated outlook for 2023. We now expect revenues to come in the range of EUR 750 million EUR 790 million for the full year. The range is due to the fact that we need to analyze what the impact of changing demand patterns will be eventually. Those figures have not been reviewed by our auditors, as previously mentioned. While we are confident that we catch up these revenues based on the sales order book we have, which was a prudent approach of the widened range. Main moving parts are recoverable revenues as well as the underlying market dynamics and potential shift in demand. We will provide an update on August 29, while the release of H1 2023 results. Then moving to Slide 6 a pre -- already in pre to bounce back better and stronger, we started thinking of counterbalancing measures that are suitable to at least partially offset negative financial effects related to the cyberattack by implementing: one, a Value Protection Plan for immediate and recurring savings; two, an optimized capital allocation of our resources; and third, a strategic review. We started to continue investing in our 4 focus areas for technology leadership. This gives us a total sales identified of EUR 25 million in 2023. Turning now to the Page 7 to our outlook for adjusted EBITDA in 2023. We have 2 buckets of cost, one related to the cyberattack, one, of course, to rebuild the business for which we have a good but not a complete overview of cost as still, a few invoices are coming in. Our expectation is that the impact in 2023 will amount for EUR 25 million, which, in essence, is a one-off impact. The second negative impact of missed revenues, again, it's a one-off, after deducting variable costs would have an impact of EUR 55 million, EUR 60 million, which is resulting from a rather high ratio of fixed cost in our development business. On the positive side of the equation, we account for the positive effect of advance payments mentioned before in the bridge of revenues exceeding the initial budget and a positive net effect related to our value protection program, cost savings and efficiency program that we are committed to deliver. Based on this cascade, we set our new adjusted EBITDA guidance at EUR 60 million to EUR 80 million, which has also to be seen in the context of an accumulated amount of more than EUR 90 million one-off cost for which we do not adjust. We think that it is -- puts Evotec in a stronger position for starting the year 2024 in a much more robust setup, building the base for achieving our midterm goal as outlined in our Action Plan 2025. With that, I hand over back to Werner.

Werner Lanthaler

executive
#3

Thank you, Laetitia. If you go to Page #8 of this presentation, you see the full picture of our new guidance reflected. When it comes to our revenue numbers, we have to correct down to EUR 750 million to EUR 790 million. When it comes to our unpartnered R&D, we are correcting down to EUR 60 million to EUR 70 million investment into technology leadership. And when it comes to our adjusted EBITDA, we have to reflect the cyberattack with adjusting down to EUR 60 million to EUR 80 million in adjusted EBITDA. We also took EUR 50 million out of our investment program, which used to be at EUR 250 million because it's simply not possible to put all capacities online in the speed that we wanted to do this in '23. So -- but nevertheless, we are going forward with about EUR 200 million of investments in CapEx, especially for building our Just - Evotec Biologics manufacturing sites in Toulouse and in Redmond in the United States. So many of you then often ask us the question, how does this translate now into your long-term business? And if you go to Page #9, I think it is fair to say that our business is very well protected and long term, absolutely validly positioned. And with this, we are also confirming Action Plan 2025. Why do I say this? Because our exposure when it comes to market volatility, given our long-term transactions and given our upfront-bearing transactions and given our milestone-bearing transactions with many of our partners, it's different than for many short-term players in the industry. So with this, a long-term view on our business is possible. And with this, going above EUR 1 billion in sales is possible. Going to significantly higher EBITDA of around EUR 300 million is possible. And most importantly, building a co-owned pipeline with projects that are bearing royalties with over 250 projects that are typically holding royalties of somewhere between 8% and 10% is possible and we are fully on our way to create the largest [ oddity ] pooling industry. Translating this, as you see on Page #10, into a bridge on especially our EBITDA, I think it's always important to highlight that on top of our today's business, which you have been seeing growing over the last decade and every year above 10%, which this year, due to the cyberattack will not grow above 10%, but nevertheless, will grow, you will see that going back to a double-digit growth is absolutely valid into the future. You will also see that we have a clear operating leverage that we put into the business and a very strong plan for this. And we are, of course, not shying away from efficiency measures that we have to do to create the best value protection for our business. On top of this, you will see incremental income from the deals I already mentioned at the beginning that are significant. Don't forget, there are up to EUR 5 billion in milestones only behind the transaction on targeted point integration. There are more than EUR 4 billion in milestones only behind the transaction in neurodegeneration. There is significant milestones also behind our transactions that we made -- clearly that we made with Novo Nordisk and others. So that's why, of course, it's a variable bucket, but the bucket of milestones and upfronts and licenses is a significant contributor to Action Plan 2025. And on top of this, the capacity and the EBITDA contribution of Just - Evotec Biologics will kick in only after we have started the full production of our partnership programs in Just - Evotec Biologics and especially our J.PODs. So with this, we are well on our way for Action plan 2025. And we also, when it comes to Page #11, want to highlight that our business is also for this year, not closed. It's fully open for execution, and you will see strongness to come out of our 4 key areas, one of them being PanOmics; the second one being off the shelf induced pluripotent stem cells; the third is a paradigm shift in biologics, Just - Evotec Biologics; and the fourth is our end-to-end shared R&D platform. With this, we wanted to give you an update on our cyberattack and the impact of our business. And we are, of course, open for all questions that you might have, and thank you so much for following Evotec in the better days, but also sometimes in the not so good days, where we have to report impact on our business. Thank you so much. With this, we hand over to the operator and are more than happy to answer all questions.

Operator

operator
#4

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from Michael Ryskin from Bank of America.

Michael Ryskin

analyst
#5

I appreciate all the color there. I have a couple of quick ones. One, just going back to your commentary on the updated guide. If I look at Slide 5, one of the components you do factor in there in the bridge are changing market dynamics in the second half. It seems like it's about a EUR 20 million headwind. Could you just expand on that a little bit? That seems like that's sort of unrelated to the cyberattack. What's factoring into that? There's obviously a lot of chatter in the market in terms of what's going on in terms of demand from biopharma, but any additional color on that market dynamics point would be appreciated.

Werner Lanthaler

executive
#6

Sure. So what you should see is that especially the development business sees in our business, of course, an exposure to more transactional short-term business where given especially biotech funding, we see still a lot of demand, but we see slower decision-making, and we see also here a market where I think it is fair to say that from a typical sellers' market 2 to 3 years ago, we have now come to a selective or more selective buyers' market. And only a small part of Evotec's business is, of course, also exposed to that part of the world. And that's why, especially in the development business, we are also factoring in a little slowdown of the market environment. Of course, we see left and right what our partners at larger companies have reported, and we have also monitored that situation quite carefully. Nevertheless, our discovery business given our long-term contracts is very robust, and we also see a very robust sales order book for '23 in that part of the business, a very good outlook also for '24. Nevertheless, biotech funding, I think, is one factor that goes to your question. Second is a situation where the COVID overhang, yes, and also COVID spending is something that I think has normalized the market quite significantly in some parts of the business. And I think the long-term innovation trend that we are working on and that we are building is in the long term, not affected as much as the short-term less technology-driven part of the business. Last comment, when we look at our Just - Evotec Biologics business, of course, we have also seen here market reports, and we have also discussed with our partners here. At Just - Evotec Biologics, we are not competing for capacity in the market. We are representing a paradigm shift when it comes to more precise manufacturing of biologics and when it comes to higher cost-effective manufacturing of biologics. So that's why this is a different category in the market than where you -- from other partners have seen very soft markets. And I think our [ fund ] endorsement of our platform is one testament to that. The Department of Defense is another testament to that. And overall, yes, markets are not easier these days, no doubt about it. But overall, we feel that we are representing a very strong segment of the market. I hope that gives you a broader color.

Michael Ryskin

analyst
#7

Right. No, I appreciate that. And then a follow-up kind of related to that also, but it goes the phasing or the cadence of first half versus second half. If you look at what you achieved in the first half, if you exclude the cyberattack, it would have been a very, very strong first half, as you said, I think, 25% to 30% growth in the first half. And then even if you add back some of the missed one-off revenues and that catch-up, it's more of a mid-single digit for the second half. So it does seem like it went from what would have been a very back half-ended -- loaded year to a big slowdown. I'm just wondering, is there anything else that's not captured there? Are you maybe factoring in some more conservatism on customers coming back after you guys being offline for several months? Or just it seems like one half would have exceeded the outlook so significantly and yet, that's not showing up as you go through the rest of the year.

Werner Lanthaler

executive
#8

Yes. That's a very fair comment, but let me also again point you into the direction of our very, very fixed cost-driven development business unit. Yes? So the development business unit has a lot of fixed costs, switching that it on after the cyberattack and getting all the regulatory approvals is a process that really took a bit longer also that we have initially factored in. Planning for partners to go into our development business is really only possible when you can give firm time lines to deliver their experiments in time. So it's really this transactional business that is driving, more than any other part of our business, that softer outlook for the more executional business. That's the first factor that you really should see here. The second factor that you should see, yes, there is a very strong underlying drug discovery and drug development business, which doesn't come from short-term transactions, but comes from long-term transactions. And the last comment, we have not seen any partner not coming back at this stage. We have seen many partners who have in their decision making been a bit slower or a bit more staggered so that's why factoring in full campaigns of drug discovery and drug development is probably a bit more on the softer side at this stage. But also here, we are expecting biotech funding in the next quarters, not shortly, but in the next quarters to come back. We also see here quite good movement in many of the companies that we are working with. So that's why it might appear a bit slower in the second half, but that's really only reflecting the development unit.

Operator

operator
#9

The next question is from James Quigley from Morgan Stanley.

James Quigley

analyst
#10

So I've got a couple of fairly quick fire ones. So is there any insurance recovery for the cyberattack that's already included in the guidance? Or could this be an upside and sort of what could you potentially recover? Then in terms of the EUR 25 million in cost savings you've identified for 2023, how much of this could be recurring? And to what extent, again, is this factored into the midterm targets? Could it be upside? Or is it now allowing you to get to the EUR 300 million following any step back from the underlying market as you discussed in the last question? Could you also quantify the proportion of the business that's exposed to the development site and development contracts? And then a final one, which sites will see or will be impacted by the reduced EUR 50 million investment? I appreciate there's a lot of distraction with the cyberattack, but what's -- have there been any other factors between the start of the year and now that has impacted your ability to invest, i.e., at the start of the year, GBP 265 million most possible and now, EUR 200 million is possible?

Werner Lanthaler

executive
#11

Thank you so much. I will take over the insurance questions. I will take over the development contracts and the site questions, and I'll then hand back to Laetitia for the EUR 25 million cost saving and the midterm target impact on recurring revenues there. So we are unfortunately advised not to disclose any insurance numbers and any discussions with our insurance. Sorry for that answer. These are ongoing discussions. And therefore, we are advised not to comment further than what we have done to that. When it comes to our development business, the total capacity available for development business is somewhere in the range of, I would say, EUR 150 million to EUR 200 million at this stage, with capacity that we are planning to even expand beyond that. So that gives you the total part of that business that is reflected here. And if you take a full quarter of basically not being able to deliver, then it shows you also the dimension of impact here. When it comes to our investment project, which sites are affected from that, we are, and I think that's important, at this stage, very selective when it comes to capacity expansion at all sites with the exception of everything that is capacity building for Just - Evotec Biologics. So here we go and continue to go full speed in ramping up Redmond, in ramping up Toulouse for Just - Evotec Biologics' investment. When it comes to sites where we are especially expanding capacity in chemistry or expanding capacity in our classical drug development and drug discovery offerings, we are not so keen to, at this stage, spend more than absolutely necessary, and that would mainly affect our sites in Verona, that would affect our sites in [ Guillon ], that would affect our sites in Germany as well. But again, we are talking here about a slowdown of capacity expansion, not a stop or anything like that. With this, I hand back to Laetitia.

Laetitia Rouxel

executive
#12

Yes. Thank you and answering your question regarding the cost savings. So we have implemented a Value Protection Plan for immediate impact this year totaling for EUR 25 million. Part of this EUR 25 million already implemented is recurring, a part is not. And that's why we are, in parallel, starting an efficiency program and restructuring program to make sure that we have embedded in the 2025 strategy planning, recurring savings. We are really into fine-tuning all that for the midterm efficiency program. So we can't commit at this point of time on how much it concerns, but at least already EUR 25 million this year, recurring and nonrecurring, and the objective is to get this already fully into the equation of 2025 for the years to come.

James Quigley

analyst
#13

Can I just...

Werner Lanthaler

executive
#14

And that would represent a bit of upside to also illustrate that.

James Quigley

analyst
#15

Got you. And can I just quickly clarify because with the EUR 150 million to EUR 200 million capacity, can you repeat what you said about how much the impacted or -- and the impact? It cracked up, I heard quarter, but I didn't hear how many quarters.

Werner Lanthaler

executive
#16

No, 1/4. 1/4 of that.

Operator

operator
#17

The next question is from Lucy Codrington from Jefferies.

Lucy Codrington

analyst
#18

Just a few left. Just on the shortfall, was most of that lost contract revenues? Or does that also include any lost milestones? I think you've already answered this, but your customer retention rate hasn't been affected. And then just in terms of the EUR 70 million in lost revenues, some of those are potentially recoverable. Is that right? So these revised aims are worst case? Or do you already include recoverable work in the revised aims?

Werner Lanthaler

executive
#19

I will hand back to Laetitia on the recoverable work then. But if I may, on your first part of the question, of course, we have not been able to deliver our full milestone potential in Q2 given the fact that simply, our platform hasn't been operating. Having said that, milestones are primarily driven by biological events and by, obviously, data. Of course, there is a strong aim to catch up on potential milestones in Q3 and especially in Q4. So the potential of milestones is clearly there. There is a catch-up effect that we want to achieve, especially for Q4. And I would, at this stage, categorize no milestones lost, but we have to achieve them. And I think the bigger driver here is biology and not the capacity that is simply not available for a few months due to the cyberattack. With this, I hand back to the Laetitia.

Laetitia Rouxel

executive
#20

And to answer to your question regarding the recoverable part of our business just in Q2, indeed, there is part of it that it is recoverable. And that's exactly the reason why we have quite a wide range, let's say, into the revenue guidance we gave at this point of time because we need now to really see from a capacity perspective into our capacity but also how much of this Q2 impact we can recover. So we expect, yes, to be able to recover. But how much is really something we would like to fine tune and come back to you for the next communication with more details. And that explained the broad range of the EUR 750 million to EUR 790 million exactly for this part on the recoverable part that we need to fine tune.

Werner Lanthaler

executive
#21

Thank you. Any further questions?

Operator

operator
#22

Your next question is from Falko Friedrichs from Deutsche Bank.

Falko Friedrichs

analyst
#23

I just have 2 further clarification questions, right, because this is obviously top of mind of investors on this biotech side. Can you share with us how much of your revenue is coming from this development unit? That's the first part. And within that, how much is truly exposed to this slower early-stage biotech environment? And then my second question, I think, also very important to hear from everyone. You said this biotech environment, right, that could linger on for a few quarters. So in light of that, what makes you confident that your 2025 target shouldn't be affected at all by this?

Werner Lanthaler

executive
#24

So when it comes to biotech, we probably really have to differentiate here a bit between virtual biotechs that are funded, don't have platforms on their side, or biotechs that have some platforms and are kind of hybrid working together with Evotec or biotechs that are midsized to larger biotechs that are especially then working with us on high technology programs. So it's a broad market to define biotech. Having said that, it's the whole biotech segment that sees a slower funding environment than we have seen this in '21, '22. I think I don't educate you on anything new here, where I would call the year 2021 as the exception and not the norm. So our expectation long term is that biotech's funding goes back to the levels of 2019, '18, with a modest growth that is technology-driven there behind that. That's also factored into our long-term capacity planning. So long-term capacity planning at Evotec has not been built on the exceptional funding years of '21. It's really more the long-term trends that we have seen for this segment, which, given the overall market need, is still very healthy. Second part of your question is that Evotec is typically not working with highly cost-sensitive and technical businesses in biotech because most of them are outsourcing to China. Evotec is the high-quality partner for high-valid and high IP-driven data. And these are also biotech companies where a lot of the funding rounds have happened in the years '21, '22 and these funds raised their money in 2019, '20. So there is a very robust underlying venture fund community and also very strong companies. These are typically our partners and they have long-term plans and not technical work that they are giving to us. So with this, we have a better view than some of the partners who are suffering here from only technical work that goes to especially China, India or other players. And that's what makes us on the overall market environment quite confident because, first, that's a limited community to our overall revenue exposure, I would categorize it's somewhere between 25% and 40%. The rest of our business is driven by very strong pharma partners who are very often even increasing their innovation targets at this stage. And with this, even increasing our exposure -- their exposure to us. And the third part of our business, don't forget our mission-driven foundations who are, from a funding environment perspective, at this stage, not affected at all. Our development business, as already said, is somewhere between EUR 150 million and EUR 200 million of capacity that we can deliver there. And if you take somewhere in the midpoint of that, then you have a potential revenue target of that unit in our business and, as already commented before, you can deduct 1/4 of that for this year. I hope that gave you color, Falko.

Falko Friedrichs

analyst
#25

Yes, it does.

Operator

operator
#26

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from Christian Ehmann from Warburg Research.

Christian Ehmann

analyst
#27

I have to ask again towards the CapEx payment or investment this year. And should we just model the EUR 50 million, which you don't invest this year for the next year? Just to clarify it for me, please. And regarding your recurring revenue -- recurring customer rate, could you give us a little more detail on how -- why it is exactly do you see the more refrained or more colder approach towards starting new business? Is it because of your performance? Or is it because of the biotech performance in general, of the general market performance? Just to clarify this, please for me. And the third one would be very, very plainly technical question. The PanOmics and PanHunter platforms were off-line during all those times, I assume. So do you have to refund some of your customers for this?

Werner Lanthaler

executive
#28

So the third point is very clear no because PanOmics and PanHunter is especially areas where it is simply amazing to see what Evotec people can do in taking a crisis, coming back stronger than ever before and catching up really everything that was lost as work there and therefore, not even getting close to any refunding situation for any partner, and again, thanks to the team here. On the CapEx question, I'll then hand over to Laetitia. And on the recurring business question, this is absolutely not due to our performance. I would say, in contrast. We see certain areas of our business where we have more demand than we can fulfill at this stage. In other parts of our business, again, especially the development business, where we simply cannot deliver because we haven't been able to bring all these capacities back online. That's happening as we speak. So therefore, the catch-up effect will happen here, but that's also where you have, of course, partners in the 3 last months, simply hedged to make the experiment happen, and there has been a certain switch to other partners. But there, I'm pretty sure that every partner, we will get them back.

Laetitia Rouxel

executive
#29

Answering your question on the CapEx element, so we mentioned a slight decrease from EUR 250 million this year to EUR 200 million. Yes, it is a proactive approach. Also, from an internal perspective, we have to fight first to get the business back. So there is a timing delay in those investments. So this year, we expect to have a lower CapEx investment. And with all these VPP, Value Protection Plan program and efficiency program, our objective is to be back on full in line with the strategic plan for the year to come. So we expect to keep the same CapEx investment in the years to come than what originally planned.

Werner Lanthaler

executive
#30

And just to clarify, again, if I may. Full investments behind capacity expansion and buildup of Just - Evotec Biologics, no slowdown there. It's actually the opposite here. We are even trying to increase because we see significant demand underlying our Sando transaction, underlying our Department of Defense transaction.

Laetitia Rouxel

executive
#31

And to further build, it's part of the reallocation of our investments that we mentioned also, which we reinforce and go even further on [ check board ] while in some other areas, we slow down to catch up later on as of the year 2023 strengthens and we have the direct structure, and we'll go back with the same full force as planned.

Operator

operator
#32

The next question is from Joseph Hedden from Rx Securities.

Joseph Hedden

analyst
#33

Just on your 2025 targets. Slide 10, it's evident you've provided a little more detail on how we're getting to the EUR 300 million EBITDA in 2025. And milestones, upfronts and licenses make up a fairly significant proportion of that. I'm just wondering how you arrived at that kind of figure of EUR 70 million with milestones. Are you thinking specific milestones from collaborations you have? Or is it more a percentage of the total opportunities to get to that figure? And how much, if anything, is -- are you assuming to royalties in there?

Werner Lanthaler

executive
#34

So thanks for the question. Of course, there is a model behind this where the way we have built this over the past is you take all transactions that are milestone bearing, you give all milestones and assumed time line and assumed achievement date and then you take a certain attrition rate on milestones. And that's why, again, having a EUR 5 billion targeted, put in degradation model behind that, where we are running more than 20 early projects in oncology at this stage, delivering significant milestones, as you have already also seen them happening in the last 2 years. And by these projects progressing to later stage of development, milestones even getting bigger, that's how the model works and how this is coming together as that number where you, of course, also see an approximation of that number, where there's 2 insecurities. One is biology, second is timing of how to achieve that. But the overall potential to achieve such a dimension of milestones is already there by again stressing that there is more than -- by far, more than EUR 10 billion of milestones already in our contracts. And don't forget, we are achieving these milestones on the basis of long-term partners who are more than happy to build pipelines and who are not slowing down, like BMS, likely Lilly, like Novo Nordisk, like Bayer and others. So that's really what brings into this equation. And the degree of royalties behind Action Plan 2025 is only absolutely minor. So that's not what's driving that because royalties would come from projects that are now in late-stage Phase III or approval stage, which we don't see with the exception of smaller projects in China and Asia. So that will then kick in, in the year of '26, '27 earliest. Any further questions?

Operator

operator
#35

There are no further questions, sir.

Werner Lanthaler

executive
#36

Let me -- with this, first of all, thank you very much. Let me thank you for your interest. Let me also apologize that we had to give you a late-night information and an early call, but nevertheless, let me thank you even more for your interest and dialing in at this stage. All the very best to you. We will come back to you with an even clearer update on August 29, when we then report our first half of the year. Thank you, and have a great day.

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