Expedia Group, Inc. (EXPE) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. Good morning. I'm Mark Mahaney, Senior Managing Director of Internet Research here at Evercore ISI. My colleague, Ben Wheeler, and I will be asking our next guest, who is Peter Kern, the CEO of Expedia, a series of questions for 35 minutes. There is a chat box at the bottom. If you have any questions you want to ask, Ben and I will do our best to weave those in. Peter Kern is the CEO. He's been there for about 13, 14 months, but he's really been with the company almost since the beginning. I've sort of forgotten this. He's been on the Board pretty much since the IPO, which was a long time ago, 1998 or 1999, I forget, but I was there then too. It's been a fascinating story, one of the mainstays of Internet investing in the Internet sector for a long time.

Peter, thanks a ton for joining us today. Let me start off with a recency question, which is you announced very recently a series of management changes, a new CTO, a new head of -- a new President of Brands and a little bit of a change in the operating structure. So what should investors make of that?

Well, thanks, Mark, for having me. On that question, I'm very excited about what we've just done. First of all, it's sort of a two-parter, which is, one, we've been trying to -- or a three-parter, maybe. We've been trying to simplify the company, I've been talking about it a lot. We've gone from this brand siloed kind of structure for many years to one where everything is sort of put together simpler divisionally to create excellence across all the brands and commonality and take out the duplication and the complexity we had created. So we've been working at that pretty much since I took the job. Even before when I took the job, we had done a restructuring. And so this is -- I won't say you never finished, but this is kind of the culmination of that effort, which is we're coming together into these 4 pillars of the business, which we think sets us up to be maximally efficient in terms of operating the core platform, operating the brands as a group. And importantly, the one big move that probably happened in that restructuring was we brought our supply team together with our B2B team. And you've heard me, Mark, over the last year kind of mention from time to time, the opportunity in the B2B business. We think it's a really big opportunity, and we are in a unique place. We have a lot of work to do to maximize our potential there. But by bringing our supply group together with our B2B group, we're sort of essentially saying all partners, be they hotels, airlines, car rentals, homeowners, you name it, they are all potential users of our platform. And people who can benefit, customers who can benefit from using various pieces of our technical platform, and we want to bring that together so that, that group can think of every supply partner as a potential business partner. And then as far as John and Rathi go, I mean, that's all about bringing in operational excellence. We needed -- I've been saying to the company, we wanted to change from a travel company that use technology to a technology company that sells travel. To do that, you need really excellent technical people. We've been bringing in many, but Rathi is the sort of pinnacle of that. We want a real CTO at my leadership table who can drive the future structure of the tech. And as far as the brands go, we've been bringing those together, we've been aligning them. But we've never, in my history with the company, had a real brand leader who came from a brand marketing background. And John is kind of a unique unicorn because he comes from that creative brand marketing background, but also has lived in a digital world and optimize product and optimize digital delivery. So that's the genesis moment.

And then could you, at a high level, talk about how different this management team is than the prior management team? So talk about what you've tried to -- why, how Expedia is different today, differently run in terms of operations and strategy than it was for the prior 3 to 5 years or whatever period you want.

Sure. Well, I would say, when we were in silos, as we were, as most investors know, we were -- Expedia was a silo, Hotels.com was a silo, Vrbo was a silo, et cetera. It was a very tactical game, which is to say us and our main competitors, we're really fighting for the last inch of real estate, the last customer, the last whatever. I think we've had the opportunity now with the benefit of being able to pull back from that, think more strategically and frankly, between what I'm doing and what COVID has allowed us to do, we're not living day-to-day for the next customer. We're making the big strategic moves that we think we need to make to set ourselves up. So when it comes to brands, it's really -- is having a portfolio of brands a benefit? And if so, we have to prove it and do the work and make it work as a team and as a group. In performance marketing, we're now able to do tests and think about what we're doing brand by -- as a group of brands so we can turn 1 off to see what the incrementality is. We can look at all those pieces and start to optimize for the whole group. And that's true across the board. So I would say the real difference is we're thinking more strategically, we're set up to solve the problems across the whole company. I had an investor early on that challenged me and say, "Well, I've been hearing about replatforming for years, and it never seems to really make a difference." And I pushed back and said, "No, what you've been hearing about is we replatformed 1 stack on 1 device for 1 small set of customers, and the odds of you seeing that in the numbers are tiny. But now that we are building 1 solution for all the stacks, whether it comes to payments or fraud or identity or the core lodging stack, the core air stack, et cetera, when we make improvements, you'll actually see them. They'll be meaningful and they'll roll out across the entire enterprise." So we're setting ourselves up, I think, for the long term in a really good way. And that's the focus of this management team, to look further out, to go for the bigger fixes, to finally do the work, I would say, we hadn't done for a while to integrate these companies.

Okay. Can you talk about the changes just over the last 13, 14 months that you've made that will -- on both the growth side and on the cost side that you think make Expedia -- will make Expedia a stronger asset? It's kind of like 2 things are happening here, you've got a new management team with something of a new philosophy and then you've had COVID come through. So on the other side of those 2 things, what are investors going to notice that says that the new Expedia is stronger than the old one was?

Well, I think the obvious thing or the most tangible thing that everybody has already gotten is our cost structure is going to be quite different. But I view that as, that's great, sort of onetime -- it's a philosophy. We're going to stay on the philosophy of efficiency, but you don't get those big hitters. Every year, you make a big change. You get to reorganize the enterprise. We do think there are more opportunities for efficiency. We're not putting a target out there, but all the things I've talked about as you bring technology together as you create these 1 solution for every domain, there should be more efficiency and certainly velocity out of that. But I think longer term, what you're going to see, hopefully, is 2 main drivers, right? We've got 2 parts of our business, which is our direct-to-consumer business and the B2B business, I mentioned. I think both of those with the benefit of much stronger, better technology, we'll be able to accelerate. And if you take the brand side, not only do we want to be better on the brand marketing side, we want to be better on how we attack loyalty. We want to be better on how we do performance marketing. We believe all those things can and will be better and will drive more growth for us. We also believe on the B2B side that all the same things we're building to make the consumer experience better will make the B2B experience better and create more opportunity for us on the B2B side. So I think you'll see, hopefully, the thought is that we'll see faster consumer -- direct-to-consumer growth and see us in a more competitive position vis-a-vis the other players in the market in that regard. And you'll see us expanding our B2B business more quickly. And that opportunity will continue to grow.

Okay. Okay. I probably threw too many things on that last question. I wanted to now ask you just to double-click the impact of COVID on your business. And I want to ask whether you think there are parts of travel that have been permanently impacted by COVID of your market opportunity or/and whether COVID has created new market opportunities. I'm really interest -- I was really intrigued by that Airbnb data point last quarter that 1/4 of their bookings are 28-day stays or longer. So it's possible that because of remote work conditions of the last 12 months, 18 months, that there's an expanded use case maybe for alternative accommodations. So talk about COVID, the permanent impacts it may have had both negative and positive to your travel business.

Yes. So let me break that down into 2 parts. First of all, Brian and I have frequently disagreed publicly on this topic. I think most of what we've seen historically will return. I think that's true for consumer travel. I think that's true for business travel. I do think that it is probably true that alternative accommodations, both Vrbo and Airbnb and some of the other smaller players, have had a benefit during this period of a tailwind. And that, for some people, that has landed that idea travelers in a way that it might not have if this has never happened, sort of the classic faster online banking adoption, right, so faster alternative accommodation adoption. Now is that sustainable at these levels? I don't think so, not as a percentage of the marketplace. But is it higher? Is it accelerated as against what the normal trajectory would have been? Probably. And for us, landing that Vrbo name, which we hadn't really done a terrific job of in 2019, has really happened this year. And we've leaned into it tremendously, spent far more than we ever have, and I think the use case and all of that will help Vrbo, sort of long-term stickiness will be much higher. Now the long-term stay thing, the remote work thing, yes, we talk about it. Could it create some new travel imperatives where people are working remotely and need to come together somewhat more frequently and then they have to travel in to do that, et cetera? Yes, you can make a case for that. I'm not sure what that's going to offset and how that's going to change things. I think it would be a mistake to assume some massive shift in travel logic and travel use cases. But I would remind you, as I've reminded our company, the travel market is a $2 trillion enterprise, right? And we and Booking and maybe Ctrip are the largest, and we each have about 5% share of that market or a little better than that, 5% to 6%, let's say. So the tail, the opportunity, the TAM, whatever, is enormous. It's just a question of how we all get at it, and it's not going to matter whether, in the scheme of things, whether people travel slightly differently because they're working remotely. I think there's lots of opportunity out there for any of us.

Okay. And then let me ask one more question, then I'll spin it over to Ben Wheeler. Could you talk about recent demand trends? And we know that travel is one of the sectors most impacted by COVID, obviously, travel and hospitality. The recovery is not going to be smooth, it's going to be jagged. What do you -- anything in particular that you've seen that makes you more confident that it's going to be smooth, more confident that it's going to be jagged, the rate at which business and consumer travel is recovering?

Well, I could give you a good answer for either side of that, I guess, which is we've seen places in APAC, for example, that we're doing better and then got fourth waves and now are doing quite poorly again. We've seen, on the other hand, the U.S. broadly doing better, and I've said over the last 6 months or so that we were seeing vacation spots pick up, beach, mountain, et cetera. And now even though it is trailing considerably, you are sort of starting to see the benefit of vaccination and cities and other places starting to pick up. Now they're far behind Miami Beach, but the bigger cities are starting to show some signs of life, which is encouraging. EMEA, as you would entirely expect with the relative loosening of the rules there and the improvement in vaccinations is picking up, but it's still jagged, to use your word. Portugal was green, and the red light, green light plan of the U.K., and now it's back to amber. So I guess not red light, green light. But anyway, it went from green to not being green anymore because cases went up, et cetera. So we're still in for some bumps in the road. And all of that, I would just point out, is tricky for a travel company, right, because you get spikes in cancellations, you have service needs go up, there's a lot of nuance in that. And so just leaning in whole-hog like, hey, it's all back and getting it wrong, can be very painful. So you do have to tread lightly, I would say, and be somewhat -- or you don't have to, but we've been a little bit cautious on that so as not to get too far out over our skis and have a big shutdown come and all that happens is you spend a lot of money acquiring customers and they all cancel. That's not a very productive outcome.

Okay.

Okay. If I could just ask a question about Vrbo, how you think the platform has changed for consumers and hotel suppliers -- or property suppliers rather, the most over the last kind of 13, 14 months? And then maybe more specifically, how do you think about Vrbo's kind of inventory mix as you're talking about kind of a return to travel in some of the cities?

Yes. I mean look, we haven't changed what Vrbo is during COVID in the sense of we didn't decide we're going whole-hog into big cities and this was our moment or anything. We pushed into where we already were, which happened to be an extremely strong use case during COVID. And we thought of that as a time where we could land the experience, drive demand, lean into the brand, and we've seen terrific wins in that. In our biggest markets, U.S. foremost among them, we've seen share gains against our main competitor in every one of those. So you could say it's because we're more whole home and they're made up of all kinds of stuff. Certainly, that had an impact. Also, I think the work we did had an impact. Where we go over time, I think it will be a combination of leaning more into the geographies where we think we can win and leaning into those leading markets. We've had, I would say, a very kind of vanilla approach across the globe, which is it's all ROI-based, it's all everything. It's true for all our brands. And we need to be -- we, as a company, we'll be going on offense. We will find markets where we think we can win and make a dent. And we'll be pushing into those. And with the benefit of some stronger brand leadership, et cetera, we think we can do that in an effective way. So I think, yes, we'll continue to add supply for sure. We're obviously trying to fill in some of the markets where supply potentially has -- sorry, where demand is potentially outstripping supply like Florida Beach is this summer. But overall, we think we're going to stick with largely the whole home model and just try to push harder and win more markets and at least give our main competitor a run for their money in most places where we can.

Okay. Can you just address, and I think one of your main competitors talks about potentially them kind of gaining market share in the core North American hotel market, just your thoughts on that? Do you think it's possible that the process of this un-siloing of your brands could create some like -- has created some like near-term softness just as you transition?

Yes. Look, I mean, as I said in the beginning, part of making strategic decisions, you have to be willing to give up on some of the little tactical stuff where you just get stuck in the same fight. If I go, we have this big strategic idea, but we lost 1 basis point over here, everybody run over there and figure out why we lost 1 basis point. So we've been leaning into the strategic. I will add that we've also have said it, we've been more cautious. We've been cautious around cancellation rates and other things and things we thought we'd see. And our competitor has not. They've leaned in whole-hog, and I'm sure they've had some ups and downs because of that. But the other thing to keep in mind -- but we've been okay with that because, frankly giving up a few share points in a 50% market and none of it is sustainable and it's all coming out of performance marketing, which we all know you can toggle up or down or spend over the odds or not if you want, is not really a formative long-term strategy. That's the problem with performance marketing, right? It doesn't really lock in long-term wins very often, at least it hasn't in travel. So yes, we've been willing to give a little bit of that up, be a little more cautious. I'll also point out that you really have to look through the numbers, and it's probably hard from the outside to see. But for example, we don't do very well even in North America in 1.5 star and lower hotels. Now probably nobody on this call stays in those places very often, but it's not a market we've been particularly strong in. It's sort of somewhat correlated to that long tail of tertiary places to stay, et cetera, these outer marketplaces. That has grown a lot during COVID because of the weird travel context, we've been in where people have gone to, you name it national parks or near national parks or wherever, someplace. And so when that grows, and that's a thing we don't have particularly good share in, the balance shifts. And you see share changes, but you're not really seeing share changes in the core. Things we were already strong in or things they were already strong in or they were already weak, and you're really just seeing shifts in how the market is behaving. So a big chunk is attributable to that. But certainly, no question, we have been willing to be more conservative, willing to let a few bookings pass rather than grab a bunch of bookings, have a million cancellations, have all the service problems and customer problems that come with it. We've been a little more conservative. Now that is drastically changing in North America or changing. We've leaned back in. We've gotten less conservative, no doubt. But every market is different across the globe. And as you've all seen in the COVID numbers and the travel numbers, you have to do it as smartly as you can. And we're trying.

Good, Ben? Okay. So Peter, can you say whether -- is Vrbo back above 2019 bookings levels? I know Airbnb disclosed that it was. Is Vrbo that way, too?

We haven't said, but Vrbo is very strong by any measure. And I would just point out for you all who like to do your own math, unlike them, we don't have big exposure to major cities. So if you just took them and looked at all their big leisure locations, beaches, et cetera, you might presume they'd be up even more, right, because the cities are probably down. So if you extrapolate for us, right, we're not in those big cities in that way. So we don't have that big negative drag. So our business is really made up much more of leisure and therefore, had most of the tailwinds our way.

Okay. Okay. I can -- I'm qualitatively reading into that question. But next earnings call, you could just be specific about it, this is my 2-cents input. And then -- okay. And post-COVID, will you talk about what you plan to do, there's a question that came in, about how do you think about performance marketing and metasearch marketing post-COVID? Is there -- is that a permanent change in the way you think about these businesses? Do you think that Expedia in the past just overspent on those channels? So what would you think about both of those post-COVID?

So I won't categorically say we overspent, but I think we spent a lot and we didn't always do it with a clear view of the opportunity, by which I mean we weren't doing a particularly good job. Our answer to not knowing the answers was to spend up. And I think what we've been working on this past year by combining our performance marketing teams. We have a new Head of Performance Marketing who was a CMO at another large company, we've got our new Head of Brands who's -- John who just came, so we are going at it, and the teams are excellent. And we're going at it in a consolidated way, but that took a lot of work, right? All the analytics, just to give you a picture, all the analytics by brand were different. All the data sources were different. The flows were different. So combining it into one thing where all the tooling is the same, all the analytics are the same, all the measurements is the same, has been a Herculean task. But now that we're getting there, you can really start to test pulling things out, adding things back. We went out of VR meta because we decided it wasn't incremental to the business, and it's been a very positive -- largely out of VR meta. It's been a very positive move for Vrbo. We're testing meta. We're testing each meta separately. We're testing SEM separately. We're testing geographies separately. So we just have a much greater capacity to really be clinical. So I won't say categorically that we won't spend more money, but I think we will be a lot better and we'll know why we're spending the money and we'll know that we're getting the returns. And I do believe we'll be able to drive higher returns on the same spend or more growth on higher spend. It won't just be the blind fighting the blind, which a little bit of what we have, we have great teams, but as far as we knew, they were fighting each other as much as they were fighting other players. So that's the big difference.

What percentage of your traffic now is organic? And how high do you think that can get? Boy, if you could avoid the Google search, metasearch tax, it'd be wonderful for your business. Booking has been attempting to do this. I'm sure you have too. What do you think is realistic? Where are you now? And what do you think is realistic, given that the challenges that travel is not necessarily a frequent activity, 2 or 3 times a year, maybe we do leisure travel. So maybe there just are structural limits to how high you can get that. But anyway, what's the goal? And how far along are you in the goal towards getting to where you want to be in terms of organic traffic?

Look, I mean, the goal is to get to a place where the product and the experience are sufficiently strong, that we're sticky, people have a reason to come back. That goes through not just the experience, but also what one might do with loyalty programs and other things and how one is driving the behavior, how one is driving people to app, et cetera. Everybody's direct is up during COVID because you shrunk the base, you got down to the most core people, everybody pulled back on performance marketing. And so as a relative mix, you've got these unusual spikes, which I, again, I hear my competitors in the field talk about it, don't know if those are sustainable things or not in terms of a fully functioning travel market, but I do know that we are all pushing for that, and we do all want that. And that starts with a great brand proposition, a great product, a great experience. We think we can drive that. But that takes operational excellence in all of those things, as I talked about, right, which is why we got a new brand lead, why we got a new CTO, et cetera. So we believe we can drive that. We just launched a campaign on Expedia about who you travel with matters. That's the message we're trying to drive home. Frankly, our app experience could be much, much better and much more robust. We have tons of data. I talked about this early on in my time at Expedia that we got to use that data to help customers make better decisions, help suppliers make more money. So there's many, many ways that we can make the product more robust and the experience more robust, and that's really the core of stickiness. It's not so much like is performance bad. Yes, performance marketing is bad, it's expensive, but it's the place you go fishing for new customers. And as long as you can do that efficiently and get them to stick often enough and get that LTV, it's a fine thing, right? It's just a big fishing net and you go out there and get new customers. So I think we don't have an ax to grind. It's a fine place to go find new customers. It's on us to go make those customers stick and give them a reason to keep coming back directly. And that's the work that's at the core of what we're doing.

Okay. Let me ask one more question, and then I'll spin it back to Ben, and this has to do with how to think about long-term margins. Peter, you've been involved with Expedia forever, and one of the forever questions has been why is the margin gap so wide between Expedia and Booking. It's like a $30 billion question. And I think there's a series of factors that have been in there, but you can -- you'll know them just as well as anybody or better than anybody. So what do you think is the -- what is -- how do you think about your ability to materially close that gap over time? I'm not talking about the next year or 2, but I'm talking about the next 5 years.

Yes, look, I think you're seeing and hearing us talk about things that will materially impact that gap. We cut out a lot of costs this year. We're doing a ton of work that's helping on the marginal cost side, whether it's on the service side, performance marketing, et cetera. So I think you'll see those benefits come through. You also have to acknowledge, as I talked about, Booking has largely been a one-stack enterprise, right? Like it's 1 technology. We had many stacks, which means many people doing many of the same things. So as those activities come together and become more efficient, we will become more efficient. And as we make a better product and spread that across the entire enterprise, that will give us convert -- better abilities to move faster and improve conversion and all the things that also impact margin. I will say, though, that mix, obviously, which everybody knows, is a big part of it, right? And air has much different economics than hotel, and that has a big impact on where our margins are. The business side of things, even though we are now potentially going to sell Egencia, that had different margins. And our B2B business, which is a terrific business that we have extremely high hopes for, that has different margins. So we're not exactly created equal, but the core of getting there is simplifying our enterprise and getting to a place where 1 platform of technology powers everything. And if we get there and if we get to the 1 platform of performance marketing, et cetera, 1 approach to the brands across the globe, like those are the things that will drive margin improvement. And we think there's plenty of room to go.

Okay. Okay. Just one on capital allocation. Do you think COVID has changed the way that you think about capital allocation over the longer term? I'm talking about when volumes are back. And kind of when would you expect kind of a return if to a kind of a quarterly dividend share repurchases?

Yes. Well, I think, look, we -- as you all know, we borrowed a lot of money, got a lot of money to help us through COVID. Presumably, we're through the worst of that and we're starting to repay some of that. We do want to delever to get back to more historical levels. That's been our plan all along. As far as returning capital to shareholders, we've always had an active approach to that, whether it be through dividends or buybacks, et cetera. I would assume that will continue unless we have better ways to put our capital to work in terms of growing the business. So obviously, as an operator, I'd like to say we're going to have great opportunities to reinvest and accelerate growth and drive that. And I'm sure our Board and our Chairman would be behind that if we had those opportunities, but we've always been very disciplined about returning capital. And so to the extent we don't have a better place to put it, I think it's safe to assume we will go back to many of our historic approaches. Of course, subject to the tax rules changing, et cetera. So we'll see where that goes.

Okay. Peter, let's double-click then back on Vrbo. And I know it's a small percentage of your business, but clearly, there's a lot of investor focus on it given for, what do you call, valuation arbitrage reasons. So let's spend a little time just talking about the growth strategy of Vrbo. And you mentioned earlier that there's a different footprint that you have versus Airbnb, not this next quarter, but the next year or 2. How do you want to change -- is part of the strategy broadening the footprint, broadening the geographic supply, building on bigger international presence? Just thumbnail please, through the growth strategy for Vrbo.

Sure. Look, I think our -- what I've challenged the team with is how are we going to grow in other markets, how are we going to expand, where do we go? Sort of the same question, you just asked, Mark. And I think -- and frankly, that's been for all our brands. We've had a scattershot approach to what brands did across the globe, and we now want to have a unified approach in every market, meaning a playbook, a plan. It might be a different brand and a different market that wins or that we want to win, but we need to have a disciplined approach to what we want to do in each market. And we are working towards that, including with Vrbo. And as I've mentioned before, it may be that the best way to exploit the potential for alternative accommodations in a market may not be taking a place where Vrbo has no brand and trying to launch that brand. It may be launching that brand within a brand that does have presence like Brand Expedia and saying, hey, we're going to push vacation rentals through Brand Expedia. We're going to market to the market and tell them that we have vacation rentals, and that's how we're going to drive monetizing vacation rentals in a market where Vrbo doesn't exist. So the question for us is not necessarily how do we get ubiquity of the Vrbo brand around the globe and get to the same market share everybody, it may -- everywhere, it may be that the fastest, best way for us to get there is to use our other brand presence to drive that adoption. And so we are looking at those opportunities. There's some technical work I've talked about that's been going on. But we are looking at those opportunities to say what's the best game plan in each market, how do we drive it. You are correct that in some cases, we may not have the right supply for that market, and we've got to go fill that out. We don't have the same supply as our competitors, but we have millions of properties, so it's not like we are -- we have nothing to go shot for. And so we're going to drive that, and that's going to be true across all of our brands. And then just to make the point, when the technology is there, many of our B2B customers want to monetize that vacation rental opportunities. So we power rewards programs. As you know, we power offline travel agents. We power regional OTAs in some places in the world. Those people would love to be able to sell Vrbo. We haven't been able to provide that before, but those are, again, more opportunities for us to monetize the vacation rental space, help those homeowners make more money and drive growth in the alternative accommodation space that isn't just head-to-head direct-to-consumer the way one might think about it with us versus Airbnb and whatever market.

Okay. Okay. Ben, did you want to ask one more question?

Sure. I have just one, like, do you think, from a consumer perspective, it's a better experience to have hotels and alternatives in 1 single property? Or do you think it's beneficial to have 2 separate ones?

That's the great debate, Ben. I don't think it's -- I don't think we know the answer yet. And it may be that there are different answers for different people all over the world. Certainly, Booking has done a decent job of integrating that search experience. We have plenty of customers who find that search experience confusing. So I think It's going to depend on how we think the best -- we can provide the best customer experience. Shopping for home is very different than shopping for a hotel room. Some classes of alternative accommodations start to feel more like hotel rooms. So it's really a question of what's the best consumer experience, and I think it's going to take a lot of learning and a lot of testing over time. But we're not wedded to 1 or the other. We're going to go for whatever the customer responds to and test our way into that. And we do believe -- we have believed, I should say, that we need to be able to provide it all in 1 search. Whether that proves to be the winning thing, it's -- technologically, it's something worth getting to, so we're driving to it. And then we'll figure out how we modify that experience to make it optimal for consumers.

Great. Okay. Thank you. Peter Kern, CEO of Expedia, I want to thank you for your time today. Very much appreciate it. And wish everybody a safe and healthy rest of the day. And hopefully, we'll see everybody traveling again this summer.

Thanks, Mark. I'm sure we will. Take care.

See you, Peter.

Bye.