FactSet Research Systems Inc. (FDS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hi, everyone. Welcome back. This is the UBS Financials Conference in a virtual format this year. I'm Alex Kramm, Senior Research Analyst covering U.S. exchanges, rating agencies, information services companies and real estate brokers. Next up here is FactSet. We're delighted to have FactSet's, I want to say newish but actually not that new anymore, CFO Helen Shan with us. And since there's no formal presentation, we'll just keep this hopefully a fairly casual fireside chat without the fire here. But maybe just to get started. So again, first of all, thank you for being here and taking the time.

That's all right.

Given that the audience may not know FactSet all that well. But like you laid out, I think, about a year ago a 2022 growth plan. So let's start at very big picture here, forget COVID for a minute. Can you just remind us what is that growth plan? How do you expect to get there? And what have you achieved so far that you can tell us about?

Yes. No. Thank you. Thank you for the question. And happy to be here, although being physically in the conference would have been terrific, but hopefully next year. So back in September, as we had accomplished quite a lot in 2019, our fiscal year 2019, as you know well, Alex, in becoming more efficient and more productive, and we did quite a lot. We improved our margins by 190 basis points, and we wanted to reinvest back for the longer term. And so as a company, what we did is we decided then to embark on a 3-year plan in both content and technology, both of which we are -- that's really been the history of our business and it goes with our success. And then going to a 3-year plan in FY '22 for us would get us back to that margin with a growth rate more along what we wanted, more in the high single digits and then getting an adjusted EPS back into that double-digit land. And so year 1 for us, FY '20, has been about investing. And investing means that we're planning, we're hiring, we're developing the solutions, we're making some of the digital transformation changes because those are 3 areas that we're really focused on, which is deep sector and private markets and shift to the public cloud. So in the content side, deep sector has been a key piece. Our research business is one that's really been our cornerstone and the deep sector is meant to further bolster that. We've launched 3 of the 7 or 8 sectors that we've been talking about going out to. In private markets, when you asked the question about what have we accomplished, we've hired a number of industry experts and really augmented our plan of integration with third-party content sets. And then on fund data collection, we launched StreetAccount in Canada. Lots of our clients are big StreetAccount fans. So we've expanded that in Canada. And also, we had already also started hiring in other geographies as well. On the technology side, as people are changing the way that they work, we wanted to be part of that workflow as well. So we went from at the end of Q2 to Q3, for example, from 20 to 40 APIs on developer.factset.com. So that's another sign of the progress that we're making. And then the transition to the cloud, I mean, that is a multiyear process. All new products are now developed on the cloud. Some of our key products have been transitioned and will take a couple of years now to complete that, but we're on track, which is how we are looking at some of the milestones for FY '20. We have over 300 colleagues that are focused on the digital transformation. So those are the things that we look at, Alex, that says, as you think about the 3-year plan and what we're trying to achieve and what gives us some of that confidence in year 1, those are the things I would point to.

Yes. I actually have just a follow-up on this. But before we get there, I just realized, and I think everybody on the line already knows this, but there is an opportunity to ask questions. So please use your chat function if you have any questions. I'll work into the conversation or at least try to. So just in terms of the confidence that you have in the plan, I guess we got to talk about COVID and what's changed. So why do you still feel confident, as you just mentioned, that you can achieve these targets despite obviously a 2020 that threw everybody for a loop, I would say.

Yes, for sure. What we did back in September, as I was describing, is what we laid out for our plan. As we think about, as I said, year 1 is around investing, for sure, we have to take COVID into consideration and how would that potentially impact us. And so the way we're looking at this, Alex, and we're working on budgets right now on this, and we'll discuss more when we can, when we're complete with that. But really, if I think about this past, we have a year under our belt in terms of what we've been able to accomplish and experience, both on the hiring front and the speed of which, the development that we've been able to do. We've made some adjustments along the way as well. And if anything, the last 5 or 6 months of this situation, for better or for worse, has probably bolstered our confidence around that we've made the right decision. The digital transformation piece is clearly the key. We know that working remotely all of our clients are now asking more and more on how can we even work with them around their digital transformation. And so as a result, we're making some tweaks in how we're looking at things. We're certainly, in some cases, going to be updating on some of the things that we're investing in. And so we actually see some greater opportunity for digital demand. That doesn't mean that the market isn't going to have some impact on how we're thinking about it. But in terms of the path that we're on, the places that we're investing, we continue to have that confidence in that plan.

Great. In terms of just finishing up on the plan, I guess. A lot of people have asked me, and this is not a new question about the margins. You mentioned yourself once you get to 2022, you're back into that 33%. What gives you confidence that you can invest for 3 years pretty heavily, bring the margin down and then kind of bring it back up? What gets you there, I guess, without turning the things off again, I guess, as some people are looking at it?

Yes. And I think that's a fair question. So we track a lot of what we do. And I mentioned, we had made a lot of efficiency improvements. We talked about the expense control. We talked about pushing down decision-making down lower and lower with budgets. And we talked about the shift of our workforce mix from higher to lower-cost countries. Now it's not like when we went into '20, we turned that off. That kept going. And so when I think about the benefits in FY '20, I see the benefits that come from the spend that we're saving, T&E and office expenses. I know the expenses that we are meant to invest in, and I still see improvement in our BAU. So when you asked the question around, what gives us the benefit of thinking when we get into 2022, I continue to see that kind of tailwind helping us. That's number one. Number two, some of the digital investments that we're making are meant to give us savings. It was not meant purely for investment. So we're going to have some of that benefit as it relates to having the footprint with data centers, for example, and the expense improvement that will occur as we move into the cloud. Top line, clearly, if you can grow your revenue faster than you grow expenses, that's going to help your margin as well. So we're not looking purely at just absolute expenses. We're looking at that margin. And those are a couple of things I would point to, top line growth, the fact that we're changing the shift, continue with our largest expense which is people. And then the third is some of the savings and the productivity we're going to get from moving into some of our digital investments coming through.

Makes sense. You just mentioned that you're in the budgeting process. So I assume you won't announce a lot with a lot of fanfare here today. But as I said earlier, 2020 was an interesting year and a strange year the way it played out. So are there any things, any unusual things that we should have in mind as we and investors think about maybe the cadence of next year that you can highlight already for us?

You're right. I can't talk a lot around the way we're doing. I can only talk about what we've already discussed. But maybe I can help guide a little bit based also on the comments that we've already made. So I think we've learned a lot from a year of investing. So the lessons I would take are, finding the right talent. That takes some time. So we did have a slower ramp up as we talked about in the first half of the year. We also have great internal talent that was able to add productivity. So we didn't have to go out and hire all the capabilities that we sought. We were able to do a lot with what we have and existing. So those are some of the tailwinds, I would say, coming in. But by the same token, we had to make some adjustments along the way. So some of the spend that we thought we were going to do this year are going to go into next year. So those are some of the things that as we're budgeting we're thinking about, that expenses that we thought from the third-party help that we meant to get this year, some of that's going to go into FY '21. I think the other thing we have to take into account given the external environment is clearly how, number one, we hope that we're going to be able to go back to our offices. Now some of those expenses and T&E will return. Some will not be. I don't expect at the full rate. We're still learning about this, but I think the way we work has changed. So I think we'll see some of that come through on a more sustainable basis, but clearly not all of it. And I also think we have BCP-related investments that will have to go on that will take up some additional expense as well. So I think when you take that into account and the environment being -- also we're being realistic around the challenges in the environment. New business is always going to be tougher when you're more virtual. And I certainly think from the perspective of the pricing environment, we're also going to be very mindful of that as well. So I think there are both the tailwinds as well as the headwinds. I don't think it should surprise anyone, but we're taking all of that into consideration as we're thinking about our fiscal year '21.

And since you just mentioned sales and so forth, maybe we'll bring it even more nearer term. I think back to the earnings call, you're now in the fourth quarter. You gave some guidance for the year. You tightened it up. I think you surprised a lot of people with the strength in the third quarter. But I think there's still uncertainty here because this is an important quarter. So what can you help us or tell us about what you've seen out there in terms of the end market, how the pandemic is weighing on customers and how they engage? And the one thing, and I think I may have asked about this on the earnings call, you made a big point around the bank hiring that happens. We've certainly seen some of that happen or not happen. So I know this is a very loaded question. We can unpack it one by one. But what updates can you give us?

Yes. Well, I should start off by saying we're in mid-quarter so I can't comment too much more, but let me kind of talk through some of the pieces that we mentioned on our call. I mean yes, you're right. We remain cautious as the pandemic is impacting our clients and their employees as well as ourselves. The one thing I would say is, I do see folks picking up back a little bit more into normal life. So people are going on vacation and things like that. So I think those are, that actually gives me some comfort as we think about people going back into a more normal work environment, even if they are virtual. That being said, I think the issues around that we highlighted, the delay in decision-making, the longer implementation time, uncertainty in some of the user growth, those are still out there. So we don't negate that. But if I think about what we saw in Q3 and what the guidance we gave in Q4, we continue to believe that, that still holds true. Now as it relates to the hiring specifically on the banking side, as I mentioned on the call, when we think about our largest clients, the ones that have come back at or above their hiring that we expected from the previous year. That gives me some comfort. We're still waiting for a lot of those decisions to come through. And as we said, we expected it towards the end of July and in August, and that's what's going to happen. So I can't say more than that, but the factors that we named on our call, both tailwinds and headwinds remain the same.

Yes. And since you can't talk about the wins or the revenues for the quarter, of course, maybe you can at least help us a little bit with the pipeline and how you see that playing out? I mean I think the pipeline has actually been very robust, I think, the last time you talked about it. So where is the pipeline building, where are the segments that you feel like you can execute most on as you look at the pipeline today?

Yes. You started off on the earlier question saying that we surprised some folks as it relates to our Q3. And I think that really did understandably given that there was so much uncertainty. But we had said even in our Q2 call, Alex, that we had spent the first half of the year building up a robust second half. And I think that benefited us quite a bit because we are not a short-cycle company. We need some time to build it up. The sales cycle takes some time across all of our products and different lengths. But because we had so much good dialogue, that gave us a lot of momentum into the second half. Now the challenge, of course, as we go forward, is continuing to build on that. I'm not going to comment on necessarily on the pipeline, but I will say that in general, what we're seeing in terms of the strength of the things that had happened that we talked about in Q3, whether that was in certain areas that we saw in analytics like performance and risk. Those continue to be good. We still see good demand on that. The fact that we have had strong retention during this period, that could certainly have been something that worked against us. We're seeing that continue to be a good base for us. So I think the trends that we talked about in Q2, Q3, we've not seen much change as we look forward in terms of what's supporting our pipeline into '21.

You just mentioned retention, so good segue into that topic. Cancellations, obviously, is always something that's on people's minds in an environment like this. So again, you serve various end markets and customer types. So where are you seeing the most pressure to your business today?

Yes, I mean, it's something we're tracking very carefully, tracking it from a cancellation perspective, tracking it from a cash collections perspective. So I would say early on we were doing weekly lists of any clients that were asking either for rebates or any of that pricing concessions and so on. It picked up in March, April. But by the time Q3 ended, we were back down to the beginning of the quarter. I think that was a very positive sign overall. I think that the areas where there's, I would say, concern, if that's the right word, by any cancellation really has been either on the very low end or I'd say really at the smaller clients where we've seen some churn. But overall, we've really not had a lot of pickup, that's why our retention rate remains strong. I think that is, in part, because during this period of time changing is not something people want to do. The markets have remained pretty good. So that, I think, also helps us. So we just haven't seen any outsized impact at this point. So I think that, again, that gives us some confidence, certainly, why we upped our guidance or at least lowered the bottom end of our guidance for FY '20.

Great. Maybe again, you said it's hard for people to move in this environment. So maybe a good segue again to competitive dynamics. It seems like in this environment, everybody is being super accommodative to enable guys like me to be able to work from home, although I kind of did this once in a while anyway so I have it set up. But I know that everybody wasn't in the same situation. I actually think the buy side was a little bit less prepared, and that's your primary customer base. So can you just talk about the competitive dynamics and how maybe you as an aggressor even, how it's made it harder or how it's changed overall?

Yes. No. You're absolutely right about that. I will say I was a little bit surprised. It did seem like the buy side did take a little longer to adjust. But that being said, there's a couple of things. One is, our business model, as you know, had moved to a much more of a digital footprint. So we were able to accommodate a lot of clients, especially early on, in being able to get set up quickly from home. So I think, a, you build a lot of goodwill with that and hopefully, some new clients as a result. And we were able to, I'll say, introduce perhaps FactSet to some folks that perhaps wouldn't have normally have used us because they were using their terminals, now they don't have their terminals. So therefore, there's a benefit right there. Our business model, as you know, is more high touch. We had people who were at the client sites and so on. So one could say, well, gosh, you're not there anymore. So therefore, is that a loss? That is true. I mean we like the fact that our folks could walk around. But by the way, because they used to walk around, they know a lot of people. And we are used to having direct discussions with our clients. And so what's interesting is, we've been talking to some and even on the buy side, Alex, and they'll talk about the fact that they know who their FactSet consultant is, right? They know. They've gotten phone calls. When they had a question, they knew who to call. And they don't have that with some of our competitors. And as a result, if anything, that has helped our relationships with them. And so when it comes down to the competitive dynamics, like you said, we've not seen a material shift in the way that we've seen pricing or things like that. And the fact that for us, as I mentioned, our dialogue in H1 was so strong that it helped a lot in trying to then close deals in H2 because we're so far along. But I'd also think that, if anything, during the last 5 months, our relationship with our clients has been stronger because of our model, that we're more high-touch, that we're more digital. And I think I'd like to hope that, that's going to pay out dividends into FY '21.

Fantastic. I'm going to shift gears. We might come back to some of the other areas in the business. But I want to take it again a little bit more big picture and talking to you about M&A. It's been a while. I don't know if you've actually been involved in any deal since you got here.

Have not.

Maybe you've just been too prudent and I don't know what it is but...

You sound like my business partner.

Just tell us a little bit about, one, M&A environment. This may be the time or this may not be the time. But as you think about M&A, how do you approach it? As I said, there was a time when you did like a span of 1.5 years or 2 when you did and seemed like you were on an M&A binge almost and quiet down a little bit. So what are the capabilities that you really have to look at to maybe fill some holes. You talk about wealth a lot. I mean is that potentially an area where there may be something out there. So just help us, your approach on M&A and what we should be expecting.

Yes. No. Thank you for that question. And all kidding aside, for us, we are definitely very active in looking at lots of transactions or opportunities, even though during my period of time, which is a little over 1.5 years, almost 2 years. So it hasn't been for lack of either being in the mix or pursuing. That being said, the one thing I will say, I don't think I've been overly cautious, but for sure I'm going to be disciplined. And so we're much more focused around making sure that the returns, that the integration that we wanted to get done that we feel prepared for that and that we have lessons learned from the acquisitions that we did do. So that all plays into how we're looking at every opportunity. I agree with you. This is an opportunity for us to be looking into the market. We have lots of capacity. We have a good, strong cash flow. We have flexibility from a leverage perspective. But doing a low return deal is not what is in the cards for us. Where we want to focus because I think getting that growth will require both the organic, which we're embarking on, but inorganic as well as certainly from a speed perspective, and speed is very, very important at this juncture. I think we want to emerge from this situation stronger. And that's going to likely require some acquired capabilities, whether that's through people or through M&A. The areas though, I think, is really largely in content and perhaps in technology, if that technology allows us to do our digital transformation faster. In the areas of content, I think it will be in what will differentiate us. We've shown in the past that we're very good at integrating content. So where is that going to be? We talked about private markets. That's certainly one that we continue to be very interested in. There could be areas in the data sets that we don't have, whether it's partner or buy, could be in ESG, could be in some of the alternative data sets. I think those are the areas I would focus. I don't want to say it's going to help a particular business unit. So when you mentioned wealth, you're right, wealth is a growth area for us, but not necessarily that we're looking for something that only helps a unit per se. We like content that goes across all of our businesses, and that's where we think we're going to get the greatest leverage. So I think that's where our area of focus and where we'll get the highest returns as well.

Speaking of capital returns, for the benefit of the audience, not doing deals right now, but you do throw off a lot of cash and you do have a pristine balance sheet. How should we be thinking in general about capital allocation since that's clearly in your department?

Yes. No. That one I have to own. So I think when we think about the way that waterfall, it very much is invest in the business first. That's what we're doing. We've already started that from the juncture of the 3-year journey. So that's number one. Number two will be the acquisitions that will help support that strategy. And I have to admit that having that capacity is something I value. And so we will want to have some of that capacity to do acquisitions and not be necessarily limited by size. So that is part of the strategy overall. We consistently return our cash to our shareholders. We upped our dividends back in May. Consistently, we're in the Dividend Aristocrats, named up there. So for us, that's quite key, and we'll continue to be doing that. And share repurchase remains part of our levers, but we will do that mainly in a disciplined fashion. We have a grid. We have a valuation that we look at. We buy shares solely based off of this grid because what we don't want to do is change something. And so we've been very fortunate in the way our stock has performed. We'll continue to be in line with our previous years on a BAU basis in terms of the share repurchase. And I think we return a very high percentage of our free cash flow back in the form of dividends and share repurchase today.

That you do. Unpacking some of the things that we've talked about already broadly when it comes to the investment spend. Like the one thing that I feel like -- I don't want to say I've been excited about, but I certainly know that because I think there's demand out there has been the deep sector analytic portion. I mean there are some entrenched competitors there, but definitely an area that I think is also ripe for disruption. So maybe just actually help everyone, like what exactly it is you're doing there and why you thought this is an area that you need to allocate more resources to and then, of course, what the demand has been, what the uptake has been, what the experience has been for customers and potential customers?

Yes. No. That's key. And deep sector is a very important investment for us. So I mentioned originally around research, that is our cornerstone, and that continues to be the case. Our clients are very loyal. Maybe you can tell from our retention rate, our client and ASV retention rate. And they want to stay with the FactSet ecosystem, so to speak, our platform. But in order to do that, we have to make sure that we're continuing to invest and not give them any reasons to want to use other products. And so of the ones I mentioned, we're targeting 8 to 9 sectors. We've done the 3 most important. And we did this purposefully because our clients told us what's most important to them was in the FIG area. So banking was done, insurance followed and as well as real estate will come from that as well. So we really wanted to go on what were the highest demand. And the feedback that we've gotten from clients, while we're not complete, in a lot of cases, we've actually allowed them to say, yes, I see your road map, I see you've given me kind of what I need for now. We understand how you're going to do more. And so they've stayed with us. That's part of the reason why our retention has been good, again, because they want to stay with the FactSet ecosystem. And so that's where the checks that I think that gives us confidence around that. As we build the rest out, I think we're going to see more of that play out. But we've also, as a result, seen some new opportunities, for example, in corporates, the insurance data that we have, we've been able to build upon that with the insurance sector. We've had very successful trials, for example. And these would have been corporates that we would not have necessarily normally had been on their radar, but because of that build-out, we now are. So I think there are other opportunities that come from this, not just from the research end. And I think, ultimately, as we think about that investment, we'll see that come through as feeds as we continue to build that out. So that's a year 2, year 3 type of product, but we can see that coming through as well.

Just one quick follow-up here. You almost made it sound a little bit like you're building it out, it helps the retention, you don't want people to go away. Again, maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, but how is it enabling you or has enabled you already to get new logos? Maybe somebody who said like, okay, you know what, that's actually a great competitive product and now I'm looking at FactSet maybe more holistically for the first time or is it too soon for that?

I think it's too soon for that. I mean I'm not saying we're not getting any as a result. But right now, the ones that when we talk about year 1 feedback, so I'm answering that question specifically, most of it, the feedback we've gotten from clients that we already know well and have been looking to us for that. I think, for sure, as we build the rest out, we certainly expect that it's not going to be about retention. We didn't do this only for retention. We did it to get new logos going forward. But for right now, the most immediate ones and the ones that we have the greatest dialogue with today are the ones that are our clients and our existing clientele.

Yes. Okay. Great. Thanks for that.

Yes, of course, thanks for the follow-up.

Shifting gears to the wealth side. We mentioned it earlier. I asked about it during the M&A portion here. What are you seeing out there, I guess? I mean I think everybody focuses on those really large wealth managers, but there's obviously, it's a large and fast-growing space, probably one of the few areas in financial services that's growing. So again, like there's some incumbents in the space. So maybe you can talk about that. So what's the plan? What's been the success? And where are you seeing most of the success? And anything on pipelines, I obviously love that, too.

Good one, Alex. So I think, yes, the flashy fund deals that people like to talk about are always the large elephant deals, right? So for sure, that's why we talked a lot around our flagship win back in 2019. But that's not where we rely, that's not where we're building our business on. Quite frankly, that's, I'll call it volatile. Volatile is not the right word necessarily. Our strategy as we think about the wealth growth is, yes, we hope to get larger deals, maybe not as large as the one that we had back in 2019. But quite frankly, it's around the midsized and other wealth like family offices and things like that. I think those are the ones, the care and feeding or we'll call them the singles, not necessarily just the triples or the home runs that are helping to drive our business in wealth. And we've had good success this year where we will report out, of course, when we talk about the year and back in September, but that's what's really been helping to continue to fortify that. And there's lots of opportunity. We have a very small market share in that particular -- we're a newer entrant, let me put it that way. And the incumbent there is a good competitor. We've invested a lot. We believe our product is the best in the market. They continue to invest. So it's a healthy competition. We welcome that. But I think we believe not only do we have a better product, but we also have our content that we think distinguishes us. So we feel very good about the opportunity in wealth.

Great. Just, I guess, the other area that is growing nicely but it's still a little bit of a big blob, if I can call it that, is what you call analytics. A lot of people always think about you as research, terminals. And of course, that's where I have most of the experience with the product. I am a user. But on the analytics side, there's a lot in there, right? That's really the core portfolio analytics, particularly on the long-only side, but you've made some acquisitions in that space, even on training side. So help us, first of all, maybe just remind us what analytics really all entails. And then where are you seeing kind of like the biggest opportunities, the biggest uptake? What's been driving the success, I guess, there, which is better than the kind of like fairly commoditized research side, if I can say it that way.

Right. Well, we don't call it commoditized, but that's been around longer, so I'll put it that way. So it's interesting. Thank you for that question because I think it's a really important one. Because like with anything else, people know us for whatever area specific that they're in. So for example, if you look at the relative sizes, analytics is getting pretty close to the same size as research. So first and foremost, it's a larger percentage of our business now. And that growth rate has actually always been higher than the overall FactSet growth. So that's another reason why it's such a good business. But the flagship product there is something called portfolio analytics, as you know, PA. And it is, we would say, the best product out there. The important piece, the acquisitions that we made that you referenced really helped build out the portfolio life cycle. So let me just give a little bit of perspective for those who may be less familiar with analytics. So if you think about what we provide on the research end journey, if you think about a buy-side shop and being able to talk with the fundamental analyst, the portfolio manager doing their research, the quant analyst as well. So they're coming up with those ideas going into the portfolio manager who really is part of our system now, right, so putting in, looking at their portfolio. Then if they want to make a decision on what they want to execute on with their own order management system, which we have as CYMBA. We made that acquisition. Or execution management system, which is Portware, which we bought. So I'm kind of walking us through from idea to reviewing your portfolio, to making the internal and the external order and then moving it on and doing all the analytics. So what's the risk of the portfolio, how does that impact, doing scenario planning, all of that we capture in what we call PA or portfolio analytics. The reporting end on that, that can be with Vermilion, which is what we acquired. And BISAM really helps us very much so on the risk and performance analysis. And that takes you through performance and risk as well as even on how you report to your clients for the buy side on the client service, marketing. So what analytics really does, it really does that full life cycle service for the buy side. And while we're best known perhaps for the workstation, really, the analytics piece, where the workstation is a key part of it, really spans much broader than that.

Great. We're coming to the end of our time. I want to just come back to kind of like your day job, meaning a little bit more on the financial side. We talked about the margins at the beginning. We talked about the 2020 plan. Just very quickly given that we are all learning about working from home and how we're going to -- you said you want to have people back in the office next year. But anything we didn't touch upon that you are thinking about, how you may have some further cost savings or other things that we haven't talked about that we should be aware of as every CFO and CEO is thinking about that part of the income statement these days.

It is. I came from a call earlier today where I was asked to go through how many of my folks can work remotely, how many have to be in the office, so on and so forth. So you're right, it is top of mind. I think, first and foremost, every company, I'm sure, including with UBS, is thinking about what's best for our business, but also what's best for our colleagues. And I think the issue that we have to keep in mind clearly about the return to work is making sure that we equip people to do that effectively. I mentioned earlier about some of the costs that we'll go into. I don't think when we started this, we had no idea how long this would take. But it's certainly taking longer than we had hoped. So we want to make sure that folks can work effectively and that we have the right business continuity in place. So there's some investment along with that. And that's being part of our calculus as we think about FY '21. When I think about, well, what does that mean from a cost perspective of if we do a shift? Well, real estate leases are long term in its nature. So it isn't something where you can shift on a dime or turn on a dime, as they say. So from there, I think that's going to take some time to see that play through. I also think, quite frankly, that when we do go back, it's not going to be at the full capacity. So there's some fitting that has to get done there. So there's a lot of cost to this. That being said, we've proven how effective we are working remotely. So I think there's going to be savings from office expense and from some T&E. And also I would say the talent that you're able to attract will also be a little different. None of us thought we could just work and hire folks that we've never seen. Well, in the last 5 months, we've done hiring from people that we've not met. I've got a bunch of folks on my own team. Teams, Zoom, video has allowed that to occur. And that's a mind shift that has been just truly accelerated because of the situation. I think that's going to help us as well and maybe will let us do some talent acquisition that we wouldn't have so. And trying to answer your question though, I think there's both the puts and takes. There are some things that are long-lived expenses that we're not going to be able to change like this. But that being said, I think we're going to see some more sustainable impact going forward and time will tell. I don't think we're not going back to the office. I just think how we go back will be different.

Well, on the topic of time, we are out of time. I probably could continue this for a little bit longer, but maybe that will have to be on another day and hopefully in person. So let me thank you again, Helen, for being here today and have a great rest of the summer and yes, all the best. Thank you very much for coming.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Take care.