FactSet Research Systems Inc. (FDS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. Good morning, everyone. As we go on, attendees will still join, but since we hit 10, I want to respect everybody's time. So welcome, everyone. I'm very pleased to see the number of attendees, and very pleased to be hosting the webinar on Advancing Gender Equality at the Workplace. So thank you to all the speakers that have joined us today. I'm really looking forward to the discussion. The session will be moderated by Pascale Wazen Palpied, who's the Vice President and Regional Director of FactSet. She will take you through the -- in terms of Q&A, polls, et cetera. But welcome, and I'll hand over to you now.

Thank you, Amrika. So good morning again, and welcome, everyone, to the webinar of Advancing Gender Equality at the Workplace. My name is Pascale Wazen Palpied. As Amrika said, and I'm the Head of the Middle East and Africa region at FactSet. So thank you all for joining. I hear you're joining from the region and the world, so thank you. Some housekeeping information, I will have a conversation of 30 minutes with our guests. You too can engage with them through Q&A on the Zoom Q&A tab on the bottom of your screen. We will address them. And during the chat, we'll also ask for your opinion through polls. Please reply, we want to hear your voice. Before we start, let me introduce H.A.D. Consultants and FactSet who are bringing you today this webinar. H.A.D. Consultants is a passionate team on a mission to create an environment of empowerment through training, events, marketing and coaching. For 40 years, FactSet has been partnering with clients across financial markets to deliver superior data, analytics and open technology solutions. We will be hosting 4 webinars with H.A.D. Consultants. Please watch the space and join the conversations. For our first webinar, we wanted to mark the end of Women's Month with a subject important to FactSet and to me, personally: gender equality. So why is it important? It mirrors our diverse global communities. In the region, we are 32 employees with diverse backgrounds. And I'm proud to say that we are 16 women and 16 men spread across our 2 offices in Dubai and Johannesburg. Inclusion is one of our core values, but we also acknowledge there is still more work to be done. To accelerate our efforts to promote diversity at FactSet, we recently appointed a Chief Diversity and Equity Inclusion (sic) [ Chief Diversity, Equity & Inclusion ], and we created multiple business resources groups to represent our workforce. Along with my Co-Chair and the Steering Committee, I represent the Europe, Middle East and Africa women's group. And our aim is to create tangible ways to advance gender equality at FactSet. I'm sorry, I have a small technical issue with my connection. So I believe that whatever your gender is, our speakers' insights will be a source of inspiration, like it was to me. Today, our aim is to give you fruitful thoughts, key takeaways and a fresh perspective on how to advance gender equality at the workplace. Enough about me and FactSet. Please let me introduce our speakers to you. So I'm honored to introduce, first, our first speaker. She is one of the most senior Emirati female leaders in the UAE's banking industry. Over the past 25 years, she had multiple roles -- multiple leadership roles at Standard Chartered. Today, she's the Managing Director and Regional Head of Global Subsidiaries for Standard Chartered in the Middle East, North Africa and Pakistan. She was recognized for her significant achievements in the banking sector by the UAE Ministry of Labor. In 2017, she was appointed to the Board of Directors of the Emirates Institute for Banking and Financial Studies. She holds a Bachelor degree in science -- science degree in accounting and finance from the American College of Switzerland. She also completed her post-graduate certificate in sustainable finance from the London Institute of Banking and Finance. In her spare time, she enjoys fashion and arts. She is passionate about empowering people around her, describes herself as a constant learner and a positive thinker. When I asked her the reasons she was eager to join this panel, those 3 traits were very clear to me. She mentioned the importance of collaboration, the need to prepare young employees through training and development, and last, the importance of approaching gender diversity positively through a solutions-focused approach. Please join me in welcoming Shada El Borno. Welcome, Shada.

Morning, Pascale.

I'm equally excited to introduce to you our second speaker. She's a leadership development professional with the career spanning over 10 years in multiple industries. She is currently a Senior Manager at Ernst & Young and looks after leadership development for the Africa region. She joined the firm in 2018 and has been playing a leading role in the implementation of leadership development programs at EY. One of them is EY Badges, their latest innovative learning platform. She is a seasoned facilitator and boasts a wealth of experience in talent development, executive coaching and mentoring. She holds an Honours Degree in Business Management and HR. She has multiple accreditations such as Insights Discovery and International DDI Facilitator. You guessed it, she is passionate about learning and talent development. She strongly believes that learning and development are each person's responsibilities. Women should understand their own power, and finally, understanding intersectionality is critical to promoting inclusion. Please join me in welcoming Preesha Persad. Welcome, Preesha.

Thank you very much.

Last but not least, our next speaker is the most courageous or the luckiest man I know to be on the panel with 4 women talking about gender equality. He has over 25 years of experience in banking and finance and is currently the Managing Director and Head of Global Markets Strategy, Infrastructure and Market Insights within First Abu Dhabi Bank Global Markets Business. He joined the institution in 2009, specializing in credit -- GCC credit markets and has since held various roles within the Global Market's unit. He is a member of the senior leadership team of ADB Global Markets. Prior to that, he had multiple leadership roles focusing on credit research, his expertise, in both London and Dubai. During his years in credit research, he was frequently quoted in media, such as the Financial Times and CNBC. Sorry, I'm not mentioning the rest. On a personal note, I'm really honored to have him on our panel for multiple reasons. First, I know how he is an ally to his partner and walks the talk. Second, it's not every day you get to interview the main architect and emcee for the Global Financial Market Forum, one of the most prominent financial markets event in the MENA region over the last decade. And it's not every day that you get to interview the person who has interviewed live prominent individuals like David Cameron, Tony Blair & Nicolas Sarkozy, to name a few. He is a firm believer that we should embrace diversity and inclusion as a whole and not limit the discussion to gender at the risk of forgetting the importance of meritocracy. Please join me in welcoming Chavan Bhogaita.

Thank you, Pascale. Pleasure to be here.

Thank you. Thank you all for taking the time to be -- to take part of the conversation. So shall we dive in?

Absolutely.

Great. So to start with, my first question is more of a general question. I want to understand, like before advancing anything, we need to define it and we need to be able to measure it. So how would you define gender equality? Shada, I'll start with you. What does it mean to you?

Hi, Pascale. Thanks for this question. I -- on this one, in particular, I'm a big believer that it's one that each one of us, as individuals, as organizations, as societies, need to take a step back, look at our current sort of makeup, our current demographics, our current way of working and take stock of how we're faring on gender quality, how we're faring on diversity, how we're faring on gender pay. And then from there, decide what is the ultimate goal that we want to reach in order to meet this gender equality or to meet equality in the workplace. And by doing that, also, we will be able to establish what is hindering our abilities or what is hindering us from getting there, from achieving this equality and diversity, from achieving fair opportunities for all. So one of the things that I'm pretty sort of determined about is that we cannot just -- definitely, there is a lot to learn from other organizations, from other practices elsewhere. But it's important to come up with bespoke solutions, solutions that fit with our values, that fit with our practices, that fit with our ways of working as organizations, as institutions; and from there, device a plan, whereby we get buy-in in from all people involved to cooperate with us, to work with us to achieve these goals. Buy-in is important, collaboration is important in order to achieve fairness, equal opportunity for every one.

Thank you, Shada. Chavan, what does it mean to you as a man?

Yes, I better be careful what I say here. No, look, I think the question is such that it means something different to almost everybody. And I think if you ask 10 people, you get 10 quite different answers. To me, I think a bit like Shada. I'd like to kind of take a step back and say, for me, the diversity and equality piece is more about creating a mindset and a culture so that it's in-built and ingrained into how individuals and organizations think. Yes, of course, we can drill down and make it about specifics, whether it's gender, age, nationality, whatever, we can have various types of initiatives such as quota-based or otherwise. But I think just looking at the bigger picture, for me, it's really about can we get to a stage where we shouldn't be having this discussion? Can we get to a stage where in the future, perhaps in the next generation, the people that follow us in these kinds of roles don't need to have this discussion because it's a given? It's a given that we think equal opportunities. It's a given that we pay on parity. It's a given that we look at things from a human capital perspective rather than gender, age, race, nationality, et cetera. So for me, it's more the bigger picture and really wanting to change the DNA of the kind of corporate mindset.

I'm going to say inshallah, but not in the region way. It's like really, inshallah.

Indeed.

Good. Thank you, Chavan. Preesha, I want to hear from you like from an Africa perspective, but also you train leaders. How do you see them like approach this? Do you see it like evolve?

Thanks, Pascale. I share the sentiments of my 2 colleagues on the line. For me, gender equality is more around what is the legacy we want to leave behind. How do we lead with purpose? How do we develop purpose-driven leaders? We understand how gender equality came about. Many, many years later, we're still having the same conversation. So what is it that we need to do as individuals? What is it that we need to do as leaders? What is it that we need to do as corporate to make sure that this is no longer a topic on the agenda, but it's actually business as usual. It is so deeply enrooted in the way in which we operate that it's something that organically takes place in everything that we do. So for me, I think the 2 big things that come to mind is legacy and purpose, and as individuals, what do we want to do as organization, how do we want to contribute to leaving behind this legacy that no longer sees gender equality as an issue but rather as a way in which we operate.

So men and women agree on this question. Thank you. This was also mostly about like the financial and banking sector, so I want to dive in a little bit more into the sector. I was like researching. And on the First Abu Dhabi Bank website, they referenced the fact that since there is 21 women in Forbes Magazine Power Businesswomen List in the top 100, it means that women are representing the workforce, like we're leading the way in the financial sector. Chavan, you've been working in the sector and in the UAE for more than 15 years. Did you see visible changes? Personally, I still find myself the only woman in the room in most of the meetings.

Okay. So to answer the second part, yes, it is still a very male-dominated environment, and hence, your comment about mostly men in the meetings. But have we made progress? 100%. Absolutely. And I think what you see in front of you is evidence of that, right? I'm the only male on this panel, and we have people like Shada and Preesha and others represented throughout different organizations in the banking and finance industry, not just here in the region, but globally. Here in the region, yes, FAB appointing a female CEO recently was a big step. I think it sends a very strong message. But at the same time, we've seen similar appointments in other institutions. In the region, for example, we have a female CEO in one of the large Saudi banks. We have a female CEO of the Dubai office in Standard Chartered, where Shada works. She was a former colleague of mine. So it is happening, 100%. If we go to a more granular level, I mean, within our Global Markets business, for instance, we have females on our senior leadership team. We have females in practically every major part of the business. So if you look at our business in terms of verticals, horizontals, there is ample female representation throughout. Now obviously, ample is a relative term, and yes, I'm sure everybody would want more. But going back to your question, yes, we've absolutely seen progress. I don't think there's any room for complacency here. I don't think we should kind of sit back and think we did it, tick the box and move on. I think we have to keep going. But again, I'm a firm believer that we really shouldn't -- I personally don't think we should make this about women or hiring women because they're women, right? Going back to the point I made earlier about human capital, Preesha talked about talent, et cetera. I think we should hire the right person for the right role. And yes, obviously, turning that on its head, we shouldn't discriminate against an applicant or a candidate because they happen to be female. But at the same time, I wouldn't want to see somebody hired just because they're female, right? And I'll give you an example. In investment banking globally, there are several organizations, I've been part of some of these, where females are hired in client-facing roles for specific reasons, i.e., the manager of that team believes that if he sends a female salesperson into another male-dominated environment, his chances of success in terms of sales revenues are higher, right? And that's a particular mindset. Now I'm not endorsing that or advocating, I'm simply stating a fact. That's a mentality we need to move on from. And I think we need to move towards the point of recognize -- not only recognizing that women have the right talent, but putting them in the right roles because of what they bring to the table. So whether it's Shada, whether it's Preesha, whether it's yourself, I'm pretty confident that none of you got the role because you happen to be a female. You've got the role because you're the right person for that particular vacancy as and when it was there. So for me, it's really about the human capital and moving away from the discriminatory element and giving credit where it's due. Yes, we all find that diversity also brings a lot richer content to the table. So in our leadership meetings, is the content more diverse and more rich because of the fact that we have some female representation? Yes, 100%. They bring a very different perspective. Is it in the business or at a bank level -- in the bank's interest to go down that path? 100%. So yes, look, going back to your point, we have seen progress. Definitely, we need to keep going. We can't ease off. But as we said at the outset, I think we need -- the aim is to make this as -- I think, Preesha, you used the word BAU, the aim is to make this BAU. The aim is to make this part of our ingrained culture, our mindset, that we look holistically, we look through the lens of parity and diversity all the time rather than doing it consciously or needing to make a conscious effort.

Yes. Thank you, Chavan. I will go back to the question of hiring on skills later, and hopefully, you have a view on it.

Sure.

Shada, I want to hear your views on how you saw things evolve in 25 years at Standard Chartered, knowing that Standard Chartered does a lot on, at least, like showing transparency around the point.

Absolutely. I echo what Chavan has mentioned. So over the years and at the start of my career, it was largely male-dominated. But as the backdrop and as environment also improved around us and female choices of occupation, female choices of education also changed because, traditionally, a lot of women chose occupations such as health care, such as education, which are very fundamental, right? With that landscape changing and then going into finance, et cetera, that started sort of trickling into the financial sector. And with organizations, again, being very mindful, like Standard Chartered, they have diversity and inclusion, it's something that we've embraced and has been core to our values and way of operation for a very long time. So we've always looked at giving fair opportunities and giving fair consideration of employment for the longest time ever. And today, increasingly, I see a lot more women in Standard Chartered in very diverse roles, in very different roles within the bank. And definitely, it makes a huge difference to the fabric of the organization, to the makeup of the organization, to productivity, to the culture of the workplace. It's very different. And what has been amazing and very inspiring is the impact, again, of collaboration and the impact of people genuinely coming with one another to try and make it a better place for everyone, not for a specific gender, not for a specific age group, but just this sort of mindfulness and recognition that equal opportunity for all and fair opportunity for all is a must, and it's the right way of doing things. That being said, I cannot start to make -- paint a picture perfect kind of a situation because it's an evolution. There will be bumps in the place. There will be learning on the job. But you have to do it live in order to -- and be very adaptive and agile, and that's something that we learned the importance and criticality of during COVID. And by being agile, et cetera, you adapt and change along the way, and you change your processes, you change your policies. And with time and practice and the right learning, you also work on changing mindset. And with changing of mindset, you change the culture and way of doing things.

I have a follow-up question on this one. Like you mentioned, change the mindset. But how also can we change, as Arab women? Like I know I get this question all the time. You work in Dubai. How do you go to Saudi, et cetera. How, as Arab women, can we change also like the stereotypes around us?

By leading by example, the more of us hopefully continue to be just simple and authentic about the way we work, the intentionality, the kind of settling in and just being, again, part of this amazing and diverse working group, whether it's in the banking sector, whether it's in the government sector, et cetera. It will take time changing of minds and culture and change, right, because it has been the natural order of doing things where men are perceived -- and of course, statistically and number-proven, to be more dominant, more prominent. It will take time. But I feel like literally with time, day by day, it's changing. I remember, for example, when I first started just going out and meeting clients, it was kind of odd for myself and for clients themselves. But with time, it's become the normal way of doing things. And hopefully, as days and time pass by, this whole sort of fairness and equal opportunity and diversity, again, will be just a normal way of doing things.

Thank you, Shada. Preesha, I want to learn from the Africa experience, but also you accompany leaders. I want to see -- do they come to you like with elements of importance of diversity? Or is it a discovery -- still a discovery process for them today?

So from a South African perspective, I've had the good fortune of working in many male-dominated industries like engineering, like financial services, like the legal sector, and we have seen great progress made in placing the attention and focus on developing women in these industries and in these professions. We've got legislation in place that also helps us drive this. So to a certain extent, it could be seen as compliance-driven. But I think we have to start somewhere in order to start bringing about the change that we wanted. So yes, it is compliance-driven, but now we've seen a higher appreciation for diversity and inclusion in the workplace. And like Chavan mentioned, with diversity comes different perspectives. It comes with richness of ideas, new ways of doing things. So it's really more about leveraging of the unique skills and talents that each individual brings, irrespective of race, gender or age. But just one more thing I'd like to add to it. Whilst we do a lot at a corporate level and we always have the focus on making sure it's part of our strategic objectives, I think we also need to start becoming more innovative and more intentional about how we address this matter. So we need to take it one step back, and we need to go to grassroots level. We need to start engaging with individuals from the time they are scholars. And that's something we've been doing quite nicely within the South African context. So start energizing and inspiring and motivating individuals to get excited about these professions right from a school age, and then we work with them and we nurture them until they get to a point where they're now ready to make choices about tertiary education, preparing them to enter these industries with the right mindset and the right skill set. So we're not just hiring for color or race or gender, but we're hiring people with the right skills and passion as well.

A question about this. Like definitely, it starts at home. I am a mother of 2 boys, and I do everything in my power to make sure -- and my husband too, like to raise them as same thing and my husband. Yet -- and I was telling Shada about this, like and see some examples sometimes, where they expect my husband to do the task, let's say, drive, if I'm with him. So okay, the responsibility is at home, but how can we make sure that everyone around them also raise them and like don't do any biases around this?

Yes. So when I said it starts from grassroots, apart from the home environment, corporates should be making time to engage with schools, to engage with tertiary institutes to start creating that interest, that inspiration and that motivation. Yes, parents obviously have a big part to play in it. But as corporates, we have resources available to us, and it's about how are we using those resources and we are refocusing those resources. The second thing that I'd like to add, to answer your question, it goes back to awareness and appreciation. We -- for the first time ever, we have up to 5 different generations working alongside each other in the work space, which means a fresh out of university graduate is working alongside someone who's heading towards retirement. You can imagine the dynamics that, that brings to the business. So we need to constantly be talking about these things. We need to be constantly keeping this top of mind with every individual that we engage with so that they have an appreciation and an understanding and an awareness. Many of the youngsters, your kids included, Pascale, may not understand this concept of gender equality because they didn't grow up in a world without access to computers, without access to the Internet, without access to information. They don't understand the challenges and struggles that the older generation have experienced and that we are now trying to remedy in this day and age. Once we create that understanding, awareness and appreciation, it will be easier to get their buy-in and get them to want to pay it forward.

Thank you. Definitely, intersectionality and understanding people's differences is definitely what we should be looking at. Chavan, I want to -- next question to you is like we noticed a greater focus on diversity since the start of the pandemic. Why now? Is it because of everything happening in the U.S.? Like as a Lebanese, I always like feel -- it's only when the U.S. have public problems that we start giving more attention to an important question? What do you think?

I think there may be some truth to that, but I think that it's quite limited. I think, in general, pandemic or pre-pandemic, there was already a decent amount of momentum on this topic and people kind of starting to change their mindset, either as organizations or as individuals. And I think most people, particularly in the kind of corporate environment, are cognizant, mindful of the issue, irrespective of what their views may be. I mean, certain people may think, "Well, we don't need to make so much of an effort here." Other people may want to go kind of overboard. But irrespective where you stand on that spectrum in terms of your views on this subject, I think most people are mindful of it. It's there. And I think we've got some momentum. We just need to carry that on. But I think there's also a danger that sometimes we can overthink or become a bit too prescriptive and mechanical in how we address what is ultimately a much bigger big-picture type of problem, right? This is not -- and you've just been talking about it with my fellow panelists, right? This is impacted by how children grow up. It's impacted by what they learned at school. It's impacted by their first experience in the workplace, maybe as an internship or their first job out of university. There's lots of factors that influence an individual's view on this subject. So I think we -- as much as we'd like to, we can't take control over that person's viewpoint and how they respond. All we can do is kind of raise the awareness and move them from wherever they stand on that spectrum in the right direction, whatever that may be. And obviously, there's no kind of -- no one right answer or no one size fits all. But I think the importance here is for society in general, be it general society or within the corporate environment, to be relatively well aligned in terms of where we're trying to go with this. If -- the more aligned we are, the more progress we're likely to make as a whole rather than individual institutions being able to hold up their hand and saying, "Yes, we've got x number of people on our Board or on our kind of ExCo, et cetera." That's great, but we need the whole industry, the whole corporate environment to be moving in that direction. So I think it's -- and we've said it a couple of times already. It's about mindset, it's about culture, it's about DNA. And all of these things, like this discussion, are aimed at kind of raising that awareness and keep pushing us in the right direction. So I think, yes, the progress that we've made, it's to be applauded. I wouldn't ascribe too much influence on the kind of COVID, or indeed, the U.S. situation. But I think we just want corporates, in the same way as they're embracing other topics which are important, I think we need them to continue embracing this diversity topic, not just on the male-female aspect but also across age, nationality, background, et cetera, et cetera. That entire diversity piece is absolutely key. And those organizations that have embraced it are seeing the rewards. I mean, I think, Preesha mentioned it already. What you -- you get a much richer discussion, you get much richer content, much more kind of diverse viewpoints coming to the table, which, frankly, given how competitive the environment is out there, irrespective of industry, you need those broader kind of viewpoints if you're going to come up with that one idea that gives you, as an organization, that competitive edge. So it's actually in our interest either as individuals or organizations to move in this direction.

Thank you, Chavan. Shada, I want to hear your views on the subject. Do you think that it's because everyone was having flexibility, it removes the stigma around women that we're talking about it even more?

Correct. Yes, Pascale, I think the emphasis was on diversity and inclusion overall. From a diversity perspective, I think everyone wanted to ensure that we don't lose or get -- take our eye off the ball, especially when it comes to women because we -- I feel much instinctively sort of prompt or are up to kind of -- if we were working, probably take a step back and decide to stay back with the children and help educate them, or if we have people to look after, that we fulfill our intuitive roles of caregiving. But if anything, I feel, I'm of the few -- and I formed it and seen it firsthand, the pandemic has come in as a fantastic and a very enabling launch pad to the key enablers of diversity and inclusion, which includes like flexi hours, remote working, parents being able to take turns in taking care of children or sharing responsibilities at home. And that definitely, because it became sort of like a shared option, a shared availability, it's removed the sigma away from it. And if anything, it's helped improve morale, it helped improve productivity. We've heard definitely and we've experienced firsthand, for instance, of burnout, of being overworked, et cetera. But it's just a function that there has been a lot of uncertainty, there has been a lot going on. And with time, we'll be able to filtrate out. But if anything, the flip side to the pandemic is that it came in at the right time or -- as it shed the light on the importance and the usefulness of flexi hours, again, being able to work remotely and giving equal rights or equal opportunities for both men and women to take responsibilities. And by sharing these responsibilities, they become more available to work and to the working space.

Thank you, Shada.

May I just...

Please go ahead. I have a question for you, but go ahead.

Okay. So just to comment on the pandemic, the one comment I'd like to make is that what it's also shown us, it's definitely been a great launch pad to a lot of our initiatives, like flexible working and so forth. But I think what's also become very clear is that those qualities that used to almost be associated with only females, like the need for empathy, the need for compassion, the need for understanding, those qualities and those skills have become so much needed in this COVID -- in this world of COVID that we operate in. And we've seen the power of that, the need to create new -- the need to be constantly evolving. Whereas we used to be organizations that we're very, very focused on numbers and very focused on tangible objectives, we now see such a greater focus needing to be placed on how we engage with our people, how we operate from a human-centered perspective. And I think the pandemic, together with our diversity and inclusion agenda, has really brought that to the fore. And it's actually promoted this need for greater diversity, greater inclusion in organization.

You read my mind, Preesha, because my question was that studies have shown that it's -- the question is more important, because women are better leaders in times of crisis. So my question to you is, is that not also a bias towards the gender? And like can't men be caring and vulnerable? Like I know that our CEO, when Black Lives Matter happened, he showed emotions, and this has definitely resonated with our employees. So I want to hear like how you...

Thanks, Pascale. It's a very interesting question, and I'm going to give you my take on it. I do apologize if I get cut off. Coming from a third world country, we have been -- we've had a power cut, and my laptop's battery is very low. But hopefully, I can answer your question before I get cut off. With regard to individuals, whether male or female, we are actually made up of energy. At the end of the day, what is -- we are an energy being within a human body. Each of us has masculine energy and feminine energy. So it doesn't matter whether you're male or female. You can tap into the qualities associated with the masculine energy as well as the qualities associated with the feminine energy. The key to effective leadership, the key to managing concepts like diversity and inclusion is knowing when to step into which aspect of that energy that you already carry. So when I speak of masculine energy, it's very logical, it's very structured, it's rational, it's very individualistic, it's very goal-oriented. When I speak of female -- feminine energy, it's about creative, it's about inspiring, it's about motivating, it's about getting in touch with those emotions. So you're definitely right. It's a bias if we have to say that male leaders are unable to do what females can do. We all can do exactly what each other can do. It's just about understanding the power within you, understanding that you're made up of masculine and feminine energy and learning about yourself and knowing when to connect with the masculine components of the energy and when to connect with the feminine components of the energy. I'd like to get some feedback in the chat box from the delegates around how -- what they think about this topic as well or what are their thoughts on it. But that's my take on it, Pascale.

Thank you, Preesha. Chavan, you want to add anything? I know that I had a bias towards you when I said pandemic has been great because I can spend time with my kids.

Yes. No, look, I think what's been said is very valid. I think the pandemic has taught us a lot. Going back to this point about what can male leaders do, what can't male leaders do, et cetera, I think that's also -- obviously is quite subjective. You could pose the same arguments for female leaders and so on and do it on a variety of different metrics, whether it's age, background, whatever. So I think that's -- it's an interesting one to discuss. But I think, look, just one point to, I guess, take this discussion on a little bit is -- I kind of want to know the views of my fellow panelists on how pragmatic and how practical do we need to be on this subject of diversity and inclusion, right? Because you can take it too far, as in you can kind of say, "Okay, not just as an organization level but within individual business units and individual kind of sub-units, you have to have a set amount of representation, et cetera." And I can tell you from experience from our Global Markets business, even if you've got the best will in the world, that you want to have that level of representation on every specific desk, on every specific kind of area within your business, sometimes the talent pool just isn't there. So I think all you can do is try your best with an open mind. And then if it's not possible, then you kind of take a step back and say, look, as long as we're showing or having that diversity at a kind of business level or at a broader level, big picture, i.e., you're taking more of an average type of approach than kind of desk by desk, team by team, then I think it's doable and it's much more pragmatic. But I think if we try to go all the way down the curve -- and there are certain roles, certain categories of roles, and I'm sure certain industries even, in which even if there was the ultimate commitment to this type of diversity, it's just very hard to find the right female talent out there. And let's just take an extreme example. It's like saying if you run a plumbing company, you should have more female plumbers, right? Well, you might agree with that, but it's very hard just because there aren't that many females that want to become plumbers, right? And hence, the talent pool is limited. It's the same thing in banking. If we want to have more female traders, for example, on the investment banking side of our business. And we have, we've gotten some female traders onboard. We've even gotten some female Emirati traders being trained up through the ranks. And that's phenomenal. But when you have, for example, one of them leave, as we did recently -- I'm giving you -- I'm sharing a live example, it's very hard to replace like-for-like even if you're 100% committed to it. So what I want, perhaps to get kind of Shada's take on this is, is it okay for us to kind of look across the curve and take more of an average or big picture view on this rather than being too granular? Because sometimes, when you try to be too granular, it's just not feasible just because of the demographic, the talent pool, et cetera, which will take time to grow. It will, over time, but we're not there yet.

Thanks, Chavan. So I agree with you. I think as long as we're able to demonstrate that we have tried, we have gone through a fair selection process, we've -- and not through a tick box. We've given applicants a fair opportunity to interview them, et cetera, I'm all for ensuring that we hire for qualifications, for credentials and for merits. I'm also very mindful of the fact that we should hire for credential also. So one -- again, because of the supply and demand situation, if a candidate is able to demonstrate and we sense that they are trainable, we can mold them into what we want them to be or the requirements of the job, then definitely, we can give them priority if they are the diverse talent that we're looking for. But it has to start. And the more -- one of the things that we need to be mindful of is one of the entry barriers to probably a lot of women in particular industries where there is underrepresentation is the fact that women in those industries are underrepresented. So the more women start picking up roles in these industries and we see live examples, the more we'll start sort of putting our hands up for them. And that's a gradual shift. It is evolving. The other thing that I'm quite, again, particular about is to ensure that we're working on the junior and mid-level, because in order for us -- when we're talking about promotion. Because, currently, I'm very cognizant of the fact that we're paying too much attention to C-suites, seniority, lead positions. But what about the foundation, the basis? Those are the candidates from a diversity perspective, whether it's an age group, ethnicity or gender, that we need to focus on, to equip them with learning, with executive leadership programs, with mentorship, with sponsorship, in order to have a pipeline and a pool to be able to tap into. And this goes back to my earlier point really taking a step back and assessing, see what the hinders are and work on them, and thus, be very solution-focused.

Pascale, if I may. Just a follow-on question to Shada, if I may. Shada, you mentioned the whole selection process. And it's something I'd be interested in getting your views, and also Pascale's own here, is when we talk about diversity, obviously, the flip side of the coin is to avoid the discriminatory aspects, right? Now so when -- for example, when we have an open position and where we see -- where we're looking at candidates, how far should we go with this? Should we, for instance, not disclose gender on CVs, right, just so that it's assessed based on skill set, right? And obviously, in certain situations, both of you included the name would have to be changed as well. But -- so the reason I ask this is, for example, I come from the U.K. Over there, you're not allowed to ask somebody's age, either on the CV or in the job interview. And that's precisely to avoid this kind of bias, if you like, from an age perspective. So if that's proven to be effective, then should we be taking a similar approach perhaps on gender and say, "Okay, if you're applying for the position of a commodities trader within the Global Markets business, you should be sending in your CV with your skill set, your background, everything, minus your gender and perhaps even your name." Right, if you can make [ a job blog ], just so that you are assessed purely based on credentials.

Yes. That's something that I always pondered upon personally because of there's so many movements and there's so much awareness, which is definitely good, about, again, being very mindful of ethnicity, being mindful of age, being mindful of gender. And so many sort of -- I'm not sure whether it's rules or policies or processes or the way we're supposed to talk as part of the learning and development. I'm conscious of the fact that we might become too restricted that's it's going to have to default to this way of doing things, which is we just come across on our CVs or received as human, and that's it, and our experience and our potentials without referring to age and et cetera, et cetera. So -- and this is why everything has to be done in moderation and in balance as with, like I said, a very pragmatic and practical view. Because as it is, for me, personally, I think there's just too many stressors and too many things to factor and worry about in life that, yes, they can tick in the box, don't worry about all of this, it's just going to become increasingly difficult to work and to deal with people than work with them. Everyone deserves respect. Everyone deserves to be given a fair opportunity to be spoken about, be treated very well and right. But again, it's a delicate balance. By the way, I'm curious to see how it's really going to pan out, not just for us, for the younger generation tomorrow.

Thank you, both. Like personally, having lived in France, I would just say that I have a French name, but it still doesn't -- even if you remove your name, if some -- if the hiring manager wants to discriminate, they would find something in your CV that would show them. It's either social background or you're born in Beirut or whatever. So that's the parenthesis around it. I just want to thank you -- I think we lost Preesha. I want to thank you for the first part. This is just the first part, and we have lots of interesting insights. I'm hopeful, like you all painted a positive image. Like through your 25 years, both of you, you have seen change. So this is very helpful for me. I would like to address some of the questions coming from the audience. We have lots of interesting questions that also relates to our second part. Like we see, okay, a lot of advancement, but it's still slow. We're hiring more women, but leadership roles are still very slow. I want to address some of the questions and some of the comments that are coming in.

So I'll ask my question and link it to Dalia's question. So to encourage women to play a great role in Boards of listed companies, the UAE regulator just mandated a minimum of one woman on each Board. So how do you see this affecting women's leadership? We have also like some data from FactSet on the -- from our people database globally. And yes, Dalia asks, do companies hire and appoint women just to check out a box or truly believe in their capabilities and they have the right talent? Chavan, you want to address that first -- or sorry, Shada?

Go ahead. Go ahead, Shada. Go ahead.

Ideally, I'd like to believe, because I wouldn't want it to be a tick in the box or referred to as a tick in the box. And this is where I believe the selection criteria and the process, to go about it again, plays a role. So definitely, merits and credentials, qualifications, again, potential, should play a significant role. And yes, I'd like to believe that organizations, again, they care about their performance. They care about their operations. They care, again, about who the people who represent them are, what they bring to the table, what they bring to the organization, what they bring to the societies and communities. So I'm very mindful of the fact and hopeful that they are paying particular attention to hiring on credentials and meritocracy. But again, for both men and women, when you're interviewing, I'm sure we do mishire, we do is misinterview. It happens for all of us at various roles. But I don't think it should be sort of like standardized and that we'll just hire to tick in the box.

Thank you, Shada. Chavan, I think you have very...

No. Look, I think we mentioned already several times in the discussion, so far, we don't want this to become a tick-box exercise, none of us do. And this isn't just about the women topic. It's -- the same thing applies to amortization. The same thing applies to various key dynamics that we're looking to evolve within the corporate environment. I think, look, as far as this new piece of guidance or the new directive is concerned, again, going back to my original message about I wouldn't want anybody to be hired just because they are female. That said, I also accept that in certain environments, you need to perhaps take a quota-based approach to begin with, to get people thinking in the right direction, raise awareness. And on top of the awareness piece, you're almost adding an element of accountability. We are going to hold you accountable as a listed company for ensuring female representation on the Board. So I think that, that awareness and accountability piece comes from this new type of guidance. Hopefully, over time, they're able to remove it, and it just becomes kind of BAU. It becomes ingrained into the mindsets of listed entities, that it's in our interest to have diverse representation on the Board. But I think, yes, I -- nobody, the 2 of you included, would want to be hired just because of their gender, nationality, background, whatever else the case may be. That's not just doing an injustice, but that's actually -- it's the wrong thing to do. So I think, yes, a great step in the right direction by way of this new directive for listed companies. Hopefully, over time, we can move to this becoming ingrained.

Just before our panel, I asked my LinkedIn connection, what do they think about this particular question. So should we mandate quota? Should we raise awareness or anything else? So just to give you the results, 25% are in favor of quotas, 62% are in favor of raising awareness and 30% -- 13% are in favor of other things, mostly transparency, equal pay, removing stigma around parental leave, et cetera. So what I was curious to know, the 25% in favor of quota, why they replied this. So when I asked them, and they said, "In principle, we are not in favor." But -- and I then researched, and so what they said, like they said, "The World Economic Forum that mentions the global gender gap, thinks that we're going to wait the century, like a little bit less than a century, to achieve equality. So like we've been waiting for so long, as for free will, I would say, to arrive to the equality. We need to help them." So that's the idea behind the people who replied. We need to help the economy, to help men who are still more than 70% in leadership roles, get us to a quicker and maybe see it in my lifetime or your lifetime.

Yes, absolutely. I think -- look, Pascale, I think going back to the point we made earlier, if you liken this to changing a mindset or changing culture, in any organizational context, changing culture takes a long time. So for example, if you're an organization in which remote working was almost a dirty word pre-pandemic, right? Were it not for the COVID pandemic, it would probably take almost a generation to change that culture of moving towards a situation where executive leadership trust their staff enough to be able to allow them to work remotely. So it's not just the diversity topic. There's lots of different topics, where if it's so deeply ingrained in a certain organization's culture and mindset, changing it takes time. So going back to your quote about it could take a century or slightly less -- but I think just to put some context around that quote, it's not just a diversity issue, it's anything that's deeply engrained in the culture because changing that culture takes time.

Definitely. Okay. So I want to go back to Shada's point, like, okay -- and your point is like we shouldn't only look at the Board members, we should look at the lower executives. And definitely, the data do agree with you with the chart showing that, okay, all countries that have put those quotas in place have achieved Board -- more diversity on Boards. But again, like is it really going to a next player? And it's not. Most of the countries show much less representation in executive leadership roles. So we still have a lot to do on this side. We wanted to have Preesha's point of view on South Africa, who have a big way of like doing quotas and like having -- what the experience have thought us. But we're still -- I believe, we don't have her onboard. So I'm going to move to the second question on the second part, is like, why is gender equality that important for everyone regardless of gender? Shada, you want to start?

It's just the right way of doing things. Gender equality, ensuring that we have, again, good and fair representation of age groups, good representation of ethnicities and nationalities. I think, increasingly, it's just a better way of doing things. And going to your point about being brought up, et cetera, right, treating everyone fairly, being very mindful and sensitized and culturally aware of the differences and celebrating those differences. That -- again, diversity is celebrating and embracing differences and inclusion, making everyone feel that they can take a part and play an important role and have a fair chance and a fair say, be it at work, be it in society, be it in economy, et cetera. Simply for me, it's the right thing to do. It's healthy. It's good for productivity. It's good for learning and awareness. It's a very enriching experience. And yes, it's -- I would answer it simply as that.

Thank you.

Yes, I agree. I think, look, not much to add on what Shada has just said, but it is just about doing things the right and proper way. In the same way and a very different, unconnected example is that it's right and proper for us to all start thinking more about climate change or about recycling or whatever and build those things into our daily lives and make them part of our -- kind of our way of thinking, part of our DNA. So do we teach children -- should we be teaching children to conserve water, to recycle, et cetera? And yes, the answer is yes. And we see it coming through even on some of the kids programs that our boys watch, right? And so I think it's along those lines as in we just need to find better ways of doing things. And within the workplace, diversity is one of them, 100%. And I think the organizations that have gone down that path are reaping the rewards 100% because they are seeing the richness, they are seeing new ideas, new perspectives coming to the table, which weren't there prior to broadening up the diversity and whether it's a C-suite level or further down. It brings so much kind of new material to the table that it almost becomes a no-brainer once it's actually happened. And I'm sure certain organizations out there are probably thinking, "Why didn't we do this 10, 20 years ago?" But fine, we have to start somewhere.

Definitely. Like we just crossed the hour. I think I was very ambitious in the number of questions that I wanted to talk to you. So I want to give more time to questions that are coming in and which relates to one of the questions. Like we do see that when men are allies, companies who put in place diversity and inclusion and equity programs have a better success rate. So one of the question was, how are men co-workers responding to this? Are you worried about the roles and positions in corporates if women start filling big roles? Or do you see friction?

Okay. I'll take this based on the stereotypical, kind of male-dominated asset banking universe. No, look, I -- my short answer to this is I don't think men feel threatened. And frankly, if they either feel threatened or if they're upset, then they are the wrong person in the wrong role, and they shouldn't be with us anyway, frankly. Because if they feel threatened and if they are not embracing this change, then frankly, they are not the mindset that we should want within our -- in our business, period. So I think, frankly speaking, I don't see much resentment, concern, worry around this. I think the concern, if any, lies there because people are worried that it will become a quota-based approach. So if, for example, males feel that they are going to be almost discriminated against because they're not female, i.e., not being a woman counts against you when going for a certain role, then obviously, that's the time at which kind of men are going to get concerned about this. But I think for organizations that are doing this the right way, I don't think the men are too concerned about it. In fact, I take our business as an example. We've certainly embraced it. We see -- we've embraced it across all levels of our kind of staff base within Global Markets. We have, as I mentioned before, female representation on the senior leadership team, all the way down to graduate trainees and fresh talent coming in at that end of the kind of talent pool. And it's nice to see them grow. It is -- honestly, it's lovely to see them growing. And we've seen a couple of our young female trainees who happen to be Emirati. And again, I'm not -- yes, I don't want it to be about the fact that they are Emirati, they happened to be Emirati, they happened to be female, and they were chosen for their perceived talent. And now we're seeing that talent actually flourish. So we're seeing 2 of these individuals blossom into traders, which, again, is an area in which, historically, you didn't see many women as traders in investment banks because it was seen as a very male-dominated environment. So not only are these 2 young females being brought up and trained up in this environment. They're thriving, they're loving it. The fact that they happened to be Emirati is kind of the icing on the cake, if you like. And it's a joy to see them thrive. I mean, you see the change in their personality. The confidence comes. They -- you see what they can bring to the table in terms of the fresh mindset and the fresh approach. So all it does for us, as a business, is to confirm and emphasize what we already thought, which is we should be doing more of this. So I think, for us, in what is perceived to be a very male-dominated environment, we have embraced it, and we're seeing the benefits of it. And we see very few, if no downside to going down this path.

Thank you, Chavan. Shada, I will flip it the other way around. What would you look in the perfect male ally? So I read one of the questions, like one of the stories about how we should train men to be more situational awareness, like raising awareness about the situation. Like I give the example of I cut my hair yesterday, my husband didn't even notice that I was looking for a compliment because he didn't notice that I was. So is it something that we should train men to be more aware about the nonverbal elements of the people in their team?

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think increased awareness, increased learning, again, how to make comments, what they can address, what they cannot address, again, because the environments that we're in are becoming, again, too sort of sometimes restrictive. And yes, just giving them the support and the mechanism to be the great allies that they can be and that they should be. And this is why I think that we cannot progress this agenda of equality, again, be it gender, be it age, be it ethnicity, without being with each other on the same side of the table as opposed to opposing and confrontational sides of the table. And I think it should be back to the point of it all starts at home comment and actually the extension of the support that we see. We have great supporters in our fathers. We have great supporters in our brothers, as it applies to husbands, et cetera, who want to see us develop, who want to see us get the best education, who want to see us get to do our best and get our best in the workplace. So slowly, we need to acknowledge, celebrate and ensure that there is a continuum from what the life and growth is and should be in our workplaces. And I'm quite confident that we have a lot of our male counterparts and colleagues who are very well meaning and want to support in these initiatives. Naturally and humanly speaking, the moment we put like quotas and make it sort of like imperative, et cetera, there will be a natural sense of maybe apprehension or insecurity or concern, et cetera. And that's only human. And that's when our role as organizations, as working groups, as events, et cetera, come to play. And we play a very big role in making people understand what it means and how it should pan out. And again, the pandemic has made talking about issues like well-being, concerns, difficulties with adapting with a variety of societal and parental and family issues the norm. And so -- and with that coming into play and being embedded, I think we'll see a lot more ease in the way we handle this agenda and tackle it.

Thank you, both. Like we did run out of time. Preesha was supposed to give us also the part of raising awareness, teaching, learning, development. That is really very important. But we can do maybe a Part 2. There's a lot of interesting insights that you shared. Final post to the audience that might relate with some of the questions where they're asking advice on the topic.

My advice is just to celebrate where we are. It doesn't mean we've become complacent about it because we still do have a huge agenda and a lot of work to do. I think we've done phenomenally well. I'm grateful for the attention that's out there, for the recognition, for the awareness of the importance of all of this. Communication is key. Transparency is key. And again, for the generation that is here today, unlike my days, they're fortunate to have it. And it's important to use it the right way. Again, that's the most important, they use it the right way in order to advance this agenda as positively as possible. And it's going to be a journey, right, because it's a lifetime, it's a generational change. And it's going to happen. It's going to happen. I'm quite confident.

Thanks, Shada. Chavan?

Yes. For me, I think, look, picking up on something that Shada have mentioned, I think the -- what I would advise is for people to focus on the younger generation, and from various aspects, not just in terms of bringing in sufficient numbers of females in the kind of younger talent pool, but also in terms of changing and developing their mindset. So if it's the younger male colleagues and you're trying to make their -- or enhance their awareness, et cetera, it's by changing the culture and the mindset in the next generation is the way we're going to address this issue going forward. Trying to address it in somebody who's currently kind of, for want of a better word, kind of over 60, right, the impact that person is going to have on the diversity issue going forward in the corporate workplace is limited. If we focus on the youth and whether it's the youth that we bring in, whether it's on the male peers, and as you said, the male allies, again, in that youth sector, whether it's -- in terms of the education at school and at university, encouraging females to go into a broader range of career choices and career lines because -- and going back to the point about supply and demand. We as organizations, as much as we may embrace this topic, you can -- your ability to embrace it and implement is limited by the talent pool. So another aspect that I would advise people to address is to try and expand that talent pool by encouraging young females to go into different areas of work, not the -- the nontraditional stuff, push themselves to explore, so -- just see it as a blank piece of paper. So hopefully, over time, we've addressed the youth within the organization and their mindset on the diversity topic, we've also expanded the talent pool. And then hopefully, the whole thing, over time, leads to a better outcome.

Thank you both for your generosity and for your time. I recognize that you gave us 15 more minutes from your precious time. Amrika, anything we should mention on the call before we close? I saw that you displayed it, but I can't find it any more.

Yes. Thank you very much. I guess a lot of people said, like the majority of the votes were more about more awareness, put equality policies in place and then followed by equal pay, more woman in leadership roles and a focus on learning, so those are some of the results that came up. Why gender equality is important, a lot of people said it's about building stronger societies, that kind of play it on what you guys have been discussing, that it starts from home as well and in schools. It improves performance within the organization and creating a more sustainable economy. So as you can see, there's a lot of big picture thinking, future thinking for the generations to come that came out of the poll. There's been a lot of great questions. Thank you very much to everyone who's asked. We couldn't get through all of them but -- due to the time, but it's been a very, very fruitful discussion, and I think, planted a seed in a lot of people's minds. And I think there has to be a follow-up to it eventually, so we'll definitely take it forward. But thank you so much to Pascale, Preesha, who unfortunately had a power cut across the whole -- it's probably town that she lives in, and she's facing the consequences of that. And to Shada and to Chavan, thank you so much for being with us. It's been an amazing discussion. Watch out on social media. We'll post some of the key highlights from the discussions. And yes, thank you very much, everyone.

Thank you. Stay safe.

Thank you. Bye-bye.

Take care.

Bye. See you. Thank you. Bye-bye.