FinecoBank Banca Fineco S.p.A. (FBK) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning. This is the Chorus Call conference operator. Welcome, and thank you for joining the FinecoBank First Quarter 2025 Results Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Mr. Alessandro Foti, CEO and General Manager of FinecoBank. Please go ahead, sir.

Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining our first quarter 2025 results conference call. Before moving into the details of the presentation, let me stress that Fineco is recording a sizable acceleration of its growth dynamics, supported by a very healthy underlying quality. Our growth is leveraging on our superior customer experience and on our fair and transparent positioning, not only short-term aggressive offer. This approach is mirrored in the quality of our revenues mix, which is entirely recurring with a very low percentage of upfront fees and no performance fees at all. Let's now move to the first quarter results. Net profit in the period reached EUR 164.2 million, up by 11.7% year-on-year. Revenues achieved EUR 329.3 million as growth of nonfinancial income offset lower interest rates. Investing increased by 11.3% year-on-year, thanks to the volume effect and the higher control of the value chain by Fineco Asset Management. And brokerage is up by 29.7% (sic) [ 21.7% ] year-on-year, thanks to the enlargement of our active investors and higher market volumes. Operating costs were well under control at EUR 87.2 million, increasing by 7%, excluding costs related to the growth of the business. As we anticipated, the timing of some expenses expected throughout this year. Cost/income ratio was equal to 26.5%, confirming operating leverage as a key strength of the bank. Moving to our commercial results, the underlying step-up in our growth dynamics become crystal clear month by month. And for 2025, we continue to expect a higher asset under management and deposit net fees compared to 2024 despite the challenging macro context. This is underpinned by the positive tailwinds from the structural trend, and we are leveraging on this solid momentum through a more efficient marketing activity. The results of this acceleration has been clearly visible in the first four months of 2025. First of all, in the first quarter, we acquired around 50,000 new clients, up by around 40% year-on-year. In April, new clients are around 15,000, up by 31% year-on-year. Second, our net sales were EUR 3.2 billion in the first quarter, up by a strong 44% year-on-year. In April, total net sales saw a further acceleration at around EUR 1.250 billion, up by a very strong 48% year-on-year. The mix was very positive despite the strong market volatility in the month, with solid assets under management at around EUR 200 million net sales. Deposits were at around EUR 150 million and assets under custody at around EUR 800 million. As our brokerage clients were very active on trading on the platform, as a consequence, brokerage recorded EUR 22.5 million estimated revenues, up more than 20% year-on-year. Our capital position continues to be strong and safe with a Common Equity Tier 1 ratio at 24.1% and a leverage ratio at 5.34%. On the right hand of the slide, you can find a summary of our 2025 guidance. Despite the market correction since the beginning of the year, our diversified business model allows for an unchanged outlook for our nonfinancial income only with a different mix. More in detail on investing revenues. Given the elevated market volatility and uncertainty, we are now sharing sensitivity, every EUR 1 billion change of assets under management on May 1, generates around EUR 4.5 million of revenues from May 1 until year end. Regarding [ the point ], just a clarification. So this is a rounded number that we give to the market in this way for making everything simple. But the right, the perfect and precise sensitivity is EUR 4.7 million of revenues every EUR 1 billion of change. Banking fees are expected in a slight decrease in 2025 versus 2024 due to the new regulation on instant payments. On brokerage, we confirm 2025 expected the revenue is strong with a continuously growing floor, thanks to the enlargement of our active investors. For 2025, we expect a record year for revenues. For 2025, we expect operating cost to grow around 6% year-on-year, not including a few millions of additional cost for growth initiatives in the range between EUR 5 million and EUR 10 million, mainly for marketing, Fineco Asset Management and AI. Finally, in 2025, we expect a payout ratio in a range between 70% and 80%. Let's now move to Slide 5. As announced, the net profit in the first quarter of 2025 reached EUR 164.2 million in a very challenging macro scenario with an increase by 11.7% year-on-year. Revenues achieved EUR 329.3 million up by 0.7% year-on-year, thanks to the acceleration of a nonfinancial income, which has been able to set the decline in interest rates. Net commissions increased by sound 9.2% year-on-year, thanks to the solid contribution of investing, up by 11.4% year-on-year and brokerage up by 12.6% year-on-year. Trading profit increased by 56.3% year-on-year, mainly thanks to the higher brokerage activity and market cost. Operating costs at EUR 87.2 million, well under control and increasing by 7.7% excluding the cost strictly related to the growth of the business, mainly additional cost for Fineco Asset Management to further expand its business and having a higher control of the value chain, additional marketing costs to catch the strong momentum of the business, artificial intelligence as we are launching project to further boost our network productivity. Let's now move to Slide 6 for a deep dive on the performance of investing business. Investing revenues reached EUR 94.5 million in the first quarter, increasing by a solid 11.3% year-on-year on the back of growing volumes, thanks to our best-in-class market position and of the higher efficiency of the value chain through Fineco Asset Management. The quarterly comparison is characterized by the usual seasonality on financial adviser costs related to FIRR and Enasarco, that they are higher at the beginning of this year to other commissions in the fourth quarter of 2024 related to operating efficiency reached throughout the year by Fineco Asset Management, which are booked each year in the fourth quarter and by lower calendar days. Let me please remind you that the great quality of our investing revenues, mirroring our transparent and fair approach towards clients. As a result, our revenues are mostly driven by recurring management fees with no performance fees at all. Our set of results is particularly remarkable given the more challenging market environment for the asset management industry. Let's now move to Slide 7. In this slide, we are representing the 2 main sources of growth for our investment business going forward. On one hand, Fineco Asset Management is increasing the control on the investing value chain. Its contribution to the group net sales has been consistent over the cycle, thanks to its incredible time to market in delivering new investment solutions perfectly aligned with what clients are looking for. As a result, the contribution of Fineco Asset Management on the -- out of the total stock of assets under measurement has been steadily growing and is now equal to 38.2%. On the other hand, being a platform, Fineco is the best place to catch with the latest trends in terms of client investment behaviors. There is a clear change underway in the structure of the market with clients are increasingly looking for quality, efficient and fair solutions. All of this is channeling strong demand towards advanced advisory services with an explicit fee, where Fineco is, by far, the best position in Italy, as you can see down in the slide. Let's now move to Slide 8 for the focus on brokerage. Brokerage registered a record first quarter with EUR 69 million revenue. April was another strong month with EUR 22.5 million revenues, driven by the increase in market volumes, building up on solid floor of higher revenues, driven by our large active investor base. Average revenues so far in 2025 are around 19% higher versus 2020, with a much more healthier underlying dynamic. This is driven by the structural increase in client's interest to be more active on the financial market and building up a clear bridge between the brokerage and investing world. As such, the brokerage business represents the best sign of how fast the structure of financial market is evolving as a whole. As technology is driving a swift change in clients' behaviors, thanks to the higher transparency, for this reason, we still consider the brokerage Italian market very much under-penetrated, and we see a strong opportunity to grow despite already being the market leader. Let's now to Slide 10 for a focus on our capital ratios. Fineco confirm once again a capital position well above requirements on the wave of a safe balance sheet. Common Equity Tier 1 ratio at 24.10%, with a quarter-on-quarter decrease mainly due to the CRR III. Leverage ratio at 5.34% and total capital ratio at 33.08% as of March 2025. And the risk-weighted assets was equal to EUR 5.57 billion. As for the liquidity ratio, liquidity coverage ratio at 888% and net stable funding ratio at 390%. While the ratio high-quality liquid assets on deposit is at 78%, well above the average of the industry. Going forward, we confirm that we will continue to generate capital structurally and organically, thanks to our capital-light business model. Given the strong acceleration in our growth, we are taking more time to have a clear view on the deposit net sales going forward as the underlying dynamics are strongly improving. If despite the strong acceleration in our growth, there will remain excess capital, we will decide on the best way to return it back to the market. Now let's move to Slide 16. Let's now focus on our 2025 guidance. Let me remind that despite the market correction since the beginning of the year, our diversified business model allows for an unchanged outlook of our nonfinancial income only with a different mix. More in detail on investing revenues, given the elevated market volatility and uncertainty, we are now sharing the sensitivity, every EUR 1 billion change of assets under management on May 1, generates around, and again I'm coming back to the precise number, EUR 4.7 million of revenues from May 1 until year-end. Banking fees, as expected with a slight decrease compared 2024 due to the new regulation on instant payments. And brokerage revenues are expected to remain strong with a continuously growing floor, thanks to the enlargement of our active investors. For 2025, we expect the record revenues. Operating costs are expected to grow at around 6% year-on-year, not including a few millions of additional costs for growth initiatives in the range between EUR 5 million and EUR 10 million, mainly for marketing, Fineco Asset Management and artificial intelligence. Cost/income, we expect to hit comfortably below 30%, thanks to the scalability of our platform and to the strong operating gearing we have. On the payout ratio, we expect to hit for 2025 in a range between 70% and 80%. On leverage ratio, our goal is to remain above 4.5%. Cost of risk was equal to 5 basis points, thanks to the quality of our lending portfolio, and we expect it in a range between 5 and 10 basis points. Finally, we expect a robust and high-quality net sales with an increasing asset under management and deposit flows and the continued strong growth expected for our client acquisition as we are in the sweet spot to keep on adding new market share. Let's now move to Slide 17 for a deep dive on our growth opportunity. Fineco enjoys a unique market position, positioned to capture the long-term growth opportunity, resulting by the huge Italian households wealth and the fast changing clients' behaviors. In the graph, you can see the strong potential for our growth given the stock of financial wealth of the Italian families. Our market share is still small, and the room for growing is huge. We are particularly positive on our future outlook as we are enjoying a clear market positioning on which we have no competition. The most recent market trends are leading to a swift change in clients' investment behaviors. And Fineco is the only big player with a service model truly based on transparency, efficiency and fair pricing. Moving to Slide 18. The step-up of our growth trajectory is clearly materializing, as you can easily see on our recent client acquisition. On top of the slide, you can see the impressive acceleration of new clients, which is further building up in the first 4 months of 2025. This acceleration is very healthy because it's based on the quality of our offer and not on aggressive marketing campaign with short-term rates remuneration. As a result, all our new clients are improving the metrics of the bank by bringing more deposits and more business to our brokerage and investing solutions. The accumulated growth of high-quality new clients is month-by-month translating into better net sales dynamics, allowing us to be particularly positive on our growth trajectory going forward. In the box down on the left, you can see that it's not just about quantity, but we are also seeing the strong increase in the underlying quality of our clients, as the 44% increase of our total net sales can confirm. Let me also spend a word on deposits, where net sales has been overshadowed by massive use of our investment platforms by clients. In the first quarter, inflows of salary/pension and net bank transfer have totaled EUR 8.6 billion versus EUR 7.3 billion in the same period of last year. Deposit net sales before investments in assets under management, asset under custody are equal to EUR 2.8 billion, up by more than 50% year-on-year. This is a further confirmation of the strong acceleration of our growth and allowing us to be very optimistic on deposit net sales going forward. Finally, let me remind that we see a sizable mix shift opportunity coming from the huge stock of govies our clients' booked over the last couple of years, given that the large percentage of this has a short-term maturity, this will give our financial planners an unprecedented opportunity to improve client mix into assets under management. Thank you for your time. We can now open the call to questions.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from Luigi De Bellis, Equita SIM.

Three questions for me. The first one is on the flows. So the platform is showing a significant growth in terms of volume with assets under custody reaching EUR 47 billion. So what's strategy should we expect for this amount also in terms of potential new products? And specifically, what percentage do you believe could be converted into asset under management and/or deposits over the next 12 months? The second question on the banking consolidation. So can you comment on any potential impact for the industry and Fineco in particular from the announced offer by Mediobanca on Banca Generali, particularly in the private banking segment, and if you are seeing already some changing in the recruitment trends? And the last question on the investing. Margins on management fees have remained pretty resilient. What should we expect in the coming quarters?

Thank you for your questions. Let me start by the -- some comments on the assets under custody. Because assets under custody is remaining a quite significant component of net sales. And we think that it's worth the case to give a little bit more color on what we can expect going forward by the asset under custody because what is emerging that seems that the market is considering assets under custody as the poor component of the mix. So that is -- but this, in our opinion, is a little bit wrong for several reasons. So first of all, the clients buying assets under custody are clearly starting -- means that they are starting on using the platform. And this is the fuel for the continuous growth of the brokerage business because also a client that is just buying govy, we know by the number that there is a quite interesting percentage of them that later on is starting on interacting on the platform for buying and selling also other instruments and asset. So first point, the bigger is the asset under custody and the bigger is going to be the potential of the brokerage business. Second component because in the -- what is emerging in the asset under custody is a continuously growing component represented by ETFs. So this is probably the fastest -- is the most relevant change that is underway in the structure of the market. And it's a little bit ignored by the industry. But I think that everybody is aware of what's going on, on the ETFs world. So Fineco is emerging as practically is the platform of reference for ETFs based on the latest figures provided by the Italian Stock Exchange. Fineco is -- in terms of flows, what is exchanged on the Fineco platform represents nearly 70% of what is related to the retail clients. So a few words. Fineco is controlling nearly 70% of the ETFs market in Italy. So we are the market. It's quite evident that in the next future, this is going to bring to a situation that is going to allow Fineco to start on extracting by this business, not just brokerage fees, but also running fees driven by 2 components. First of all, because clearly, it's a situation that clearly Fineco is controlling the clients. The clients are operating, thanks to our platform. And so by definition, this means that the kind of agreement we have with the producer of ETFs are expected to change going forward. And this is going to produce not just brokerage fees, but running fees on the ETFs business. Second, is opening the way for an extremely important development that is progressively building up of our whole offer. Fineco Asset Management has been the first player in Italy starting on listing its own ETFs on the market. And so this is going to start on giving us the opportunity to place to our clients our own ETFs. And clearly, this is going to be characterized by a much better component and much better control in the value chain. So at the end of the story, this is an incredibly exciting development that is underway. And our suggestion is to start on looking to the evolution of the asset under custody as not as a core business, but as a gigantic fuel for the future profitability of the bank, but not in the next decade, but in the future that is going to be relatively close. Regarding the impact from M&A for Fineco in private banking segment, clearly, we are not making any specific comment on what's going on because our policy is not making comments on other listed company. What we expect in terms of the most important outcome for us is that clearly, but this is not just related to the -- what's going on, on the M&A, on the private banking segment, but also it is related to the M&A in the traditional banking segment that this means that the probability that the market is going to start really considering what's going on in terms of changes of the structure of the market and behaviors is going to be even more remote because the industry is completely focused on trying to extract the highest possible synergies by these kind of mergers. At the same time, there is an evident change in the behaviors of clients. And so we think that probably Fineco is going to remain for a quite significant period of time, absolutely alone in taking advantage by this very important structural changes. On recruiting, yes, probably, as usual, when you have a big merger underway, there is a little bit of confusion on the market. But as you know, for us, recruiting never has been the key component of our growth. So we -- the most part of our growth is organically driven. It's clear that if this evolving situation is going to create opportunities, we're going to capture them. But again, the most important opportunity is represented by the fact that the industry is going to be mostly focused on trying to get synergies and without any significant change in the prevailing business model in a period of time which the clients are changing quite significantly in their behaviors. On investing, yes, margins are expected to remain resilient. We expect margins being at least stable going forward. So in the guidance we gave on investing, clearly, nothing has been changed. So we remain -- we didn't change our expectations in terms of margins, we expect at the beginning of the year. We didn't change our expectation in terms of volumes. So everything has been absolutely the same. The only point in which we try to be the most precise possible that clearly, there has been by the beginning of the year, a market effect in place that clearly by definition is affecting the investing business. Clearly, this is an extremely volatile component. This is the reason why we are guiding the market with -- going forward with the sensitivity. But clearly, if we have a recovery of the market, clearly, the situation can be improving even more and so -- because in any case, brokerage is expected to remain pretty strong. So again, what I want to be extremely clear, we didn't change anything in the guidance with respect to the guidance we gave in the previous conversation.

The next question is from Enrico Bolzoni, JPMorgan.

So first of all, on margins, again. Thank you very much for clarifying the precise number you had in mind, which is EUR 4.7 million sensitivity, not EUR 4.5 million. I'm just trying to -- maybe I'm reading too much into that. I'm just curious about the numbers behind this guidance. If I now take this EUR 4.7 million, which -- it's a guidance of revenue generation over an 8-month period, so starting from the beginning of May until the end of the year, and I annualize it, and I calculate the margin, I actually would end up with investment fee margins slightly above 70 basis points. And conversely, if I have done the same with the EUR 4.5 million, I would have ended up with margins around 67. So we moved from what it looks like a lower margin going forward to actually a slight improvement now. So just above 70 bps quarter, you were just below that. Sorry for this detail, I just want to ask again whether this is the right way of looking at it. And within that, could be explicit to reference to a double-digit growth in investment revenues. But if I look at this EUR 4.7 million you just gave us, are you still confident that actually you can grow investment revenues by double digits this year assuming a decent level of stability in markets? So that's my first question. The second question is on deposit flows. In the past, you mentioned that your clients had about EUR 5 billion of bonds that were expected to mature in 2025. And I think in the past, you mentioned that a good chunk of that was expected to mature in the first half of the year. Now we are in May and so far, deposit flows have been -- on the net level, at least have been pretty small. So does this imply that we should see a material uptick in deposit flows in May and in June as well? And then finally, thanks for the color on ETF, I mean, impressive market share data. You are clearly ahead of most of your peers when it comes to fee on top and fee-only propositions so on and so forth, and it's quite impressive to see this uptick in ETFs. I was just keen to hear your thoughts on is also potentially a risk of cannibalizing some of the traditional business? And maybe perhaps can you give us some color on what proportion of the ETFs that are being bought -- platform are actually falling under a broader advice relationship, and therefore, they do generate ongoing fees.

So coming back to the -- yes, so regarding the -- so the reason why we made this small adjustment because we realized that giving -- because we probably made a mistake giving the round number. So we have underestimated that -- because the difference between EUR 4.5 million, EUR 4.7 million is so small that -- but clearly, then we realized that was making the difference between stable margins and slightly decreasing margins. And this probably has caused some little bit of concern, but the right number is EUR 4.7 million. And so yes, so the numbers you put together are the right ones. And this is consistent with the guidance we gave before that we -- at the end of the story, we expect the margins on the investing business being at least stable. And so regarding the possibility to get still the low double-digit investing, yes, clearly, the only reason why we stopped on giving such a precise guidance because there is a component that we cannot control that is the market effect. Clearly, if we are progressively back again in a more stable environment, so the market start keeping on recovering. Yes, we think that this is achievable, yes. Regarding the EUR 5 billion govies expected to -- yes, typically, from a seasonal point of view, so to predict precisely the timing of the evolution of deposits, it's not always so easy because it can be impacted by unexpected events like big market swings. So the example has been at the beginning of this year in January, which we had the unexpected big jump on rates that has caused a big move by clients on the platform. But from a seasonal point of view, yes, there is a tendency of building up more deposits going towards the year-end. And ETFs -- so ETFs, no, we don't see any potential risk of cannibalizing traditional assets under management. So the risk is there if you are ignoring what's going on because in any case, this is a big tide that from which you cannot be -- you cannot ignore what's going on. So ETFs are going to grow in any case. So you have to decide which kind of approach you're going to take, or you can surf the tide as Fineco is doing. So we are creating a great environment for clients and new clients for using ETFs. And this clearly is explaining why there is -- we have such an incredible market share of the ETFs market in Italy. Or you can decide to try to resist and try to block to try to insulate your clients by the ETFs world, but it doesn't work this way because in any case, if, for example, you are making the life for your clients difficult in getting ETFs, this is going to accelerate the process of these clients moving in the direction of a player like we are because in any case, this is a gigantic trend is underway. And in any case, ETFs are becoming an absolutely a key component in the advisory platforms. So the platforms in which the clients are paying an explicit fee. And Fineco is by far the dominant player in Italy because we started on offering advisory platform with clients paying an explicit fee in 2008. So clearly, for us, it's completely indifferent in terms of margins because we don't care if the clients decide to have -- of having a portfolio made exclusive by ETFs or active managed funds or something else because at the end of the story, our margins are represented by the explicit fees paid by the client. So for us, the ETFs are a gigantic opportunity, absolutely, it's not -- and in any case, on average, what -- if you put together, what is the overall revenues generated by the advisory platforms, these are perfectly aligned with the average profitability of our asset under management business.

So just a quick follow-up on 2 things. So on deposits, can you remind us what amount of BTP or bonds is expected to mature over the next 2 months from clients? If you can disclose that? It was EUR 5 billion for the year, if you can just give us an idea of how much is maturing in May and June. And on the ETFs, can you just specify what proportion of the ETF, you see advice relationship? What proportion of ETF you see are actually...

So the percentage of ETFs that they are moving under -- in the assets under management platforms is 30%. And on the -- if you don't mind, now more or less is EUR 1.5 billion by the end of the -- excuse me, in the second quarter, EUR 1.5 billion. Yes. So EUR 1.5 billion in the...

EUR 1.5 billion?

Yes.

The next question is from Domenico Santoro, HSBC.

A couple of questions. First of all, on the NII side, if we assume that rates, they bottom out in the second quarter around 2%, shall we expect after another drop probably in the second quarter, NII as well to bottom out in a way or there might be other minus that might drag on over the next quarters? I can see that the lending book keeps shrinking, and this is a bit of a marginal negative on the NII evolution. And then shall we expect NII from the third quarter to follow the evolution of deposits? I just wonder whether the second quarter, if rates then stay stable, NII will trough and then from there, we start again. The other question that I have is on brokerage because, I mean, the numbers, they're pretty impressive. And I guess the market is a little bit ignoring the fact that revenues in this division, they keep trending up. I know that it's difficult, but it could be very useful for us to understand whether the EUR 15 million floor that you were mentioning in the past, it might have become now EUR 16 million, EUR 19 million, EUR 20 million, whatever, any quantitative sort of comment here, it will be extremely useful. And then about the shareholders' remuneration, I listened to your comments before that at a point, you will make a decision depending on the way deposit behave and the way, of course, the leverage ratio will move. When this decision will take place? And how should we expect in a way potential share buyback to be shaped up because I thought that was quite a priority for you to please in a way investors that have been very positive on your story.

So let me start by the NII. So it's based on the evolution of the implied forward rate curve and based on the expectation we have on the evolution of deposits that as we see, we expect it to stay strong going forward and so on. It's reasonable to expect the NII bottoming out by the year-end and then by the beginning of next year, starting on growing again. So this is the evidence we have. So it's -- regarding brokerage, yes, the numbers are really impressive. So clearly, the floor now, but if you look to our numbers, the evolution of the graph and so on is pretty heavy than that the floor is probably higher than EUR 15 million. And we expect this keeping on going more and more for the -- all the considerations we made at the beginning of our conversation because there is a combination of -- there is a clear and a quite impressive increase of market share by the bank. The continuously building up of assets under custody is creating the fuel not just for the investment business, but also for the brokerage business. And finally, we have to remind that the Italian market is still massively underpenetrated. Frequently, we are compared to the Nordic platforms. And for example, in the case of the Nordics, the market penetration, so the percentage of -- the level of participation by clients direct to the market is much higher than we have in Italy. So Italy is remaining an absolutely incredible market for the brokerage. I want to add also, we forgot to mention that we started officially the project for launching the -- for opening our platform to the crypto world. And so we are working on that, and we think that probably going throughout the beginning of next year, we are going to be ready with an extremely robust and structural proposal on the crypto world that is clearly emerging as a market of interest for clients. And also this clearly is going to bring additional fuel to the brokerage business going forward. Regarding the shareholders' remuneration, yes, clearly, we are not rushing in moving in the direction of giving back to the market the excess of capital for a very simple reason. We are a growth company. We are different by traditional banks. So we prefer to wait to be absolutely sure of the growth trajectory of the bank, particularly on deposits before taking a decision in that direction. What we can say that as soon as possible, we are going to have a picture that is decently clear on that direction and is going to emerge that there is a clear excess of capital that we don't need, we are going to be extremely fast in moving direction of giving back to the market. But again, it's -- Fineco is not a traditional bank. It's a growth company. And so we are on the fast lane of growth. The acceleration we are experiencing in terms of acquisition of clients, net sales is absolutely impressive. And so we think that it makes sense that we take our time.

The next question is from Giovanni Razzoli, Deutsche Bank.

Two questions -- sorry, 3 questions on my side. One is again on the launch and the emphasis that you are putting on active ETF. If I'm not mistaken, you have just launched an active ETF on S&P 500. If you can share with us what is the pricing schedule of this product? And how does this compare with the more plain vanilla ETF or also with the comparable fund products? You said during the call that you expect the outlook for investment margins to remain unchanged or even improve. I was wondering what is the contribution of this new product? And again, on ETF, I was wondering whether -- I mean, clearly, if I'm not mistaken, but correct me if I'm wrong, on ETF, there is a very unfavorable fiscal treatment for Italian residents. I was wondering whether you may -- there is a way to further incentivize, if I'm not wrong, the further penetration of this product also via fiscal optimization or whether there is still a discussion about the harmonization of this product if you are sponsoring this? And the last question is on the sensitivity that you have provided in terms of growth of the stock of AUM for, let's say, around EUR 85 million of fees on -- since May for EUR 1 billion of increase in the stock of AUM. Shall I take this EUR 1 billion growth on the same period of time? So if you can clarify this? And if you can provide the same sensitivity also for the deposits.

So on the ETF, yes, we are extremely -- we are incredibly bullish on what's going on in the ETF world because differently by the most part of banks and the other players, we are observing what's going on because being the point of reference of the market, we are really in the position to understand what's going on there. And what's going on there, it's absolutely incredible, impressive. And we expect and this is having -- starting on having a significant impact on the industry quite soon. And regarding the -- so the active ETFs just launched by Fineco Asset Management are characterized by more -- let me say, more sophisticated because they are introducing some algorithmics that they are making, for example, ETFs more efficient and so on. But probably that if you are interested, Giovanni, the best way we can arrange and -- but this is the same story for everybody that is attending the conference. We can arrange a little bit more specific meeting with our colleagues in Dublin that can give you a better color on what does it mean, what is the risk related on the active ETFs. Just for spending a few words on the active ETF world. This is going to represent the other absolutely incredible revolution that is going to -- we are going to have on the market because going forward, progressively, active ETFs are going to replace -- are going to take the place of the traditional funds for a very simple reason. You just try to imagine the same portfolio manager with the same strategy. For the client point of view, it's much more efficient to buy the same strategy throughout an active ETFs than the traditional mutual funds because you can trade this continuously is in terms of -- you can have -- if you are buying and selling, you can take in real time the price. Everything related to custodian administration is much less complex. So this is the new world that is coming. It's clear, which is the point of attention, the active ETFs characterized by they have lower margins than the traditional mutual funds. So active ETFs can work very well for the direct clients, and this is going to be the case or for the clients that are interested in using advisory platforms. And so this is the reason why for us, it's absolutely key to move there. But in any case, ETFs, traditional ETFs, active ETFs, they are going to reshape completely the industry. Regarding the outlook on investing margins, no, we are not embedding there still any significant contribution by the -- what we were describing ETFs. This is going to -- is a development story that we think that there is going to be a very interesting story that is going to bring some interesting contribution in a relatively short period of time. But we prefer to give a guidance that is not considering this yet because there is a developing story. But for sure, ETFs are expected to starting on becoming a contributor in the investing business. Regarding the -- so the favorable fiscal treatment on ETFs for Italian residents, but the ETFs, they don't have a different -- their fiscal treatment is aligned with the fiscal treatment of the other instruments. I don't know if I got or I'm missing something in your questions. If you can help me because we don't see any difference from the fiscal treatment on ETFs. Giovanni, I'm not sure that...

I was referring to the fact that on a pure custodian account, capital gains and capital losses of ETF sometimes cannot be compensated. Is my understanding correct?

This is part of the -- everything that is related to the compensation of the gain and losses. This is, again, another developing story, but at the moment, ETFs are treated as -- but I'm not the biggest expert there, but they are treated more or less as the assets under management, but they can be probably compensated with the assets under management. But take my words cautiously because I'm not a big expert. And we can return to you with -- more precisely later on. And sensitivity, yes, the sensitivity is clearly calculated starting by the May 1. Clearly, the more we progress and the lower is going to be the sensitivity going towards the year-end. And so we have that but it's not difficult to adjust the sensitivity considering the time and -- the time passing. And on deposits, no, we don't -- we are not calculating and communicating sensitivity on deposits because there is too much still volatility in the movement of rates and so on the -- to some extent, it's a little bit easier giving a sensitivity on the assets under management than on the deposits. In any case, our CFO is suggesting to us that -- is suggesting to me that there is no compensation at -- with the assets under management. So you can compensate gain and losses between ETFs and the traditional asset under management products.

The next question is from Gian Luca Ferrari, Mediobanca.

Only 2 questions left for me. The first one is 2 days ago, one of your competitor launched a new project for targeting high net worth individuals with, roughly speaking, more than EUR 10 million. Are you planning to have a specific service model for these kind of clients? The second one, if I recall properly, last conference call, you mentioned a new private market offer in the second part of the year. Can you remind us the timing and potentially also the margins on those products?

So regarding the announcement of the -- launching a project for private banking clients, we don't need to launch a specific project there because at the moment, Fineco is offering everything that is -- all the most relevant solutions that are of the most interest for the private banking clients. In case, we think that also the numbers are showing this very clearly because the segment in which we are growing the most is the private banking segment. So the clients with more than EUR 500,000 of assets. Fineco is growing nearly 4x faster than the industry. And the reason is pretty simple because at the end of the story, the rich clients, what they want to get is services that are fair, transparent and efficient. And Fineco, as we were explaining, is the only one player that is able to offer all these concepts altogether. Then clearly, there is other companies like assisting the client in the generation of passage, in the real estate that there are companies that we are offering to clients and so on. But we don't need to launch a specific project for private banking clients because the positioning of Fineco is the best possible for capturing these clients because the -- I'm sorry I'm a little bit repeating myself. But when we are considering this absolutely incredible trend that is emerging, that is the clients looking for fairness, transparency and convenience, the 2 segments that are the most interested in moving there are the young generation, but particularly the rich clients. And Fineco is by far the best positioned player for capturing this. And the timing of private market offer, we think probably in the second half of this year, we are going to be up and running with an offer there. And on the margins, sorry, but not -- if you don't mind, we can return to you later on with a precise indication of the margins of this private market business.

The next question is from Alberto Villa, Intermonte.

A couple from my side as well. Going back to investing and ETFs and your comments during the call and your answers, you're expecting this business really to boom in the future. So I was wondering a few years, 5 years down the road, how do you think this will be represented in your AUM? So maybe starting from the end of 2024, if you can give us a picture of how much of the AUM were related to passive and active ETFs. And eventually, how do you think this will evolve in the future? And this also to understand the evolution of the margins from the 70 basis points you are planning right now, how that can evolve in the future given these moving parts? And secondly, on the advanced advisory stock, you now are at around EUR 34 billion, EUR 35 billion. How much this is impacting in terms of euro millions you are cashing in, in 2024? How much of that was related to advanced advisory fees component? And the final one is on provisions, if you can give us a guidance for 2025?

So on the -- what we can expect to happen on investing related to ETFs, active and passive, the right question is not what it's going to represent for us, but what it's going to represent for the industry because what is really -- the market is underestimating that this is a massive, gigantic wave that is going to change completely the structure of the industry. So this is the real point. So we are not [indiscernible] because for us, when we are looking to the ETFs world, there is -- there are 2 elements that for us are relevant. The first one is the presence in the advisory platforms. And clearly, as we said, we are by far the most advanced players there. And so we expect that ETFs are expected to keep on playing a bigger and bigger role there. But as we said, this is completely indifferent in terms of margin evolution. And the second one is the volume effect because clearly, as we've explained, that we have good reasons to think that going forward, we are going to start on extracting additional revenues by the ETF stocks we have. But again, this is not something that is for everybody. This is a privilege that we're going to have considering the dimension of our platform because it's clear that we are -- when you are 70% of the market, clearly, you have a pricing power that is completely different if you are a marginal player. So the 2 components that we can expect to come in place going forward is, again, the ETFs playing in a bigger and bigger role in the advisory platforms, for the reasons we were explaining. And second, we expect a progressive contribution by this component that at the moment is accounted in the asset under custody that the market is considering not particularly appealing, but as we discussed before. So what we -- our message that considering the absolutely dominant position we have, progressively, we are going to start on extracting additional revenues by this asset under custody. And this is the reason why we are explaining. But in any case, ETFs are there, are going to stay and are going to reshape in a quite significant way the industry. On the...

If I may, Alessandro, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Just to understand the -- your own ETF compared to someone that buys a third-party ETF on the platform, how does that change the picture for you in terms of profitability?

This is clearly another very important direction. But again, we are not reinventing the wheel because if we look to the U.S. experience, for example, there is the most -- the first example that is coming to my mind is the evolution that has been experienced by a player like Charles Schwab in U.S. Charles Schwab, they started clearly offering ETFs, then progressively, they build up their whole offer clearly and within -- and progressively, then a large component of the ETFs used by their clients were represented by ETFs issued by them. So this is a third [ leg ] that is going to be built up progressively. This is the reason why Fineco Asset Management is becoming very active in issuing and listing its own ETFs. So yes, we -- so thank you for making this remind because -- so the ETFs are going to play a very important role. One, very basic because what is bought directly by the clients, they're going to start progressively on producing recurring fees and so on. Second, we are going -- these are going to represent more and more the very important components of the building blocks of our advisory solutions. Third, clearly, considering the dominance we have on the market there, we are going to be in the position progressively of issuing and proposing our own ETFs. And clearly, this is going to make the business even more profitable because clearly ETFs, they are characterized by a structural profitability that is definitely above just the pure recurring fees. So yes, we think that it's a quite significant change in the structure of the industry. On the advanced advisory stock, how much this is impacting -- what do you mean exactly, Alberto?

No, I was wondering how much you are monetizing this advanced advisory services right now?

So you are interested in the dimension of the revenues generated by the...

Yes.

I don't know, I have to ask to my colleagues. We have to return. I have not these numbers on my -- provisions for 2025, I don't know, Lorena, if you want to.

Yes. Thank you. Good morning to everybody. We confirm what -- we already said in the previous call. So for 2025, we are taking a conservative approach. And we consider in our forecast EUR 25 million, considering also potential extraordinary contribution to the funding interbank [indiscernible] deposit guarantee scheme in case of increase of guaranteed deposits. Consider that in addition, starting from 2024, the insurance resolution fund started to ask a contribution for insurance distributors like Fineco. The contribution is equal to [ 0.1 per 1,000 ] of the technical reserves of the life insurance stock at the end of the previous year. And so considering the usual provision that could be estimated around EUR 15 million, EUR 17 million and the potential contribution to deposit guarantee scheme in our forecast, we are considering EUR 25 million.

The next question is from Christiane Holstein BoA (sic) [ BofA ].

I just have 3 of them. Firstly, on new customers, I was just wondering where they're generally being won from? Are they from other competitors? Or are they generally customers who are brand new to investing in brokerage? And then what segments or products do you see the new client net sales primarily within? Secondly, on brokerage, you previously highlighted tailwinds from increased demand for offshore and particularly U.S. trading, which is a higher-margin product. I was just wondering if you're still seeing demand here? Or has this reduced with the recent volatility? And then finally, in the presentation, I can see that you flagged that you have the green light by the Italian tax authority to assess opportunities abroad. I was just wondering if you could give some more detail around time line, revenue opportunity and if there's any change to the strategy, which I believe was to expand into Germany.

So regarding the new customers, they are coming nearly 100% from traditional banks. So because we -- Fineco is gaining market share from traditional banks. So this is -- and they are coming for -- so there is the entrance gate, the main entrance gate represented by the banking because we have to remind that Fineco is offering an absolutely unique and incredible experience to clients on transactional banking. And also everything related to brokerage -- asset under custody is emerging as a gigantic -- is a quite significant entrance gate for the clients because typically, the assets under management is accounting more in terms of assets than number of clients. But if we look to the number of clients, clearly, the 2 main entrance gates are -- is the transactional banking and everything related to brokerage assets under custody. Brokerage trend of clients trading on U.S. stocks, is not -- we didn't see any significant change related to what's going on, on the market. It's the contrary, we are observing a little bit even more an uptick on the interest by clients on trading on U.S. stocks. And -- but this makes sense considering that the local market is not offering such a great opportunity for trading to our clients. So by definition, the U.S. market is the main point -- is remaining the main point of interest by the clients. Regarding the business abroad, yes, we received the official green light by the Italian fiscal authority. And so now we are on the way for preparing a plan for starting on offering our services abroad. And we are going to keep you updated in the next future on the point. But yes, now everything is clear, the green light -- we got the green light, so we can progress there.

The next question is from Ian White, Autonomous Research. Mr. White, we cannot hear you. Please check your microphone please. The next question is from Marco Nicolai, Jefferies.

So if you look at the number of customers, so you grew by more than 100,000 customers compared to last April, so April '24, 110,000 customers, if I'm not wrong. So is this something that can be sustained also for the future? And what is the role of this EUR 5 million, EUR 10 million marketing expenses in this clients' growth?

So our expectations in terms of client growth that we think that we have room for further accelerating there. So we -- it's absolutely sustainable, and we see room for accelerating even more. So the marketing expenses are clearly important, but they can play a role if on the other hand, you have the right proposal because the best way if you want to waste your money is to spend a lot in marketing without having the right position and the right proposal. So what is absolutely -- what is the real reason of this accelerated growth that Fineco is offering exactly what is in the biggest demand by the market right now. I was mentioning the structural change in terms that is underway by the behaviors of clients. So if you look to this kind of needs by the clients, there is nobody else excluding the new banks and new brokers that they are really giving an option to the clients. So if a client in Italy is really interested in getting fair, transparent, efficient services by a decently large player, there is no other place that -- in which you can go than in Fineco. And clearly, this coupled together with a quite effective and important marketing budget clearly is the perfect solution. This is the reason why considering the -- we think that we want to have the possibility to spend even more because the situation, the landscape is emerging as incredibly favorable for our growth.

Okay. So let's say, more than 110,000 customers incremental per year in '25, which is happening already and also '26, '27 and following years?

Yes. Yes, makes sense. Absolutely.

The next question is from Ian White, Autonomous Research.

Hopefully, you can hear me this time. Three questions from my side, please. First up, I just wondered to hear your thoughts around -- considerations around increasing prices to clients with respect to assets under custody or brokerage, I think about either a custody or account fee or higher trading charges for brokerage-only clients. It just seems like your brokerage offering is getting a lot of traction and is very popular. I just wondered if that would lead -- led to any considerations around pricing power. Secondly, could you just clarify for us what is the current value of ETFs within AUC? I think you said earlier that 30% of ETFs are within advisory agreements, but how much is being reported, please, under AUC in nominal terms? And just finally, you mentioned earlier potential change to agreements with ETF providers. Could you just say a little bit more about that? I wondered if you're referring there to retaining a greater share of management fees on third-party ETFs? Or could this also consider things like lower exchange fees or transactional charges that might impact the AUC side, too?

So no, we are not considering any price increase to the clients on assets under custody and brokerage because we think this is in any case, our proposal is extremely very well balanced because we are characterized by an absolutely decent profitability. So no, we are not considering to charge more to the clients and so no. On the overall amount, so -- on the ETF on the part of the assets under custody...

At the end of the first quarter, 19%.

So at the end of the last quarter, the ETFs were representing more or less 20% of the overall assets under custody. But what is important is the speed at which they are growing. And in any case, at the moment -- so regarding the agreement to ETFs providers, at the moment, the most part of the ETFs on the platforms are characterized by 0 commissions to clients. So there are places and arrangements with the ETFs providers on the -- for compensating these 0 commissions. But what we -- now we are considering is the possibility to get more considering the dimension of the business, the pricing power we have. And clearly, but it's not anything particularly strange because in -- usually in the financial world, so if you are platform, that you are controlling the clients, you are taking care of the clients, you are sustaining all the costs for running the clients and so on. It's normal, for example, in the world of the mutual funds, it's normal that there is an interesting component of the management fees that they are remaining in the pocket of, let me say, the distributors, the platforms. In the ETF world, this is not still the case, but it's going to become more and more the concept, clearly not just for everybody, but with the platforms that you are really representing an important component of the market. So this is what we expect to happen going forward.

The next question is from Enrico Bolzoni, JPMorgan.

On this question from my colleague. Is it actually to capture a portion of the ETF cost because the factor that would be a bit like introducing a rebate on an ETF as we speak, typically don't have any. So just can you just clarify, is that actually something allowed?

On the technicality, clearly, it's a little bit too early to discuss about this. But yes, technically speaking, this is possible, yes.

And another very short follow-up. You mentioned about crypto launching, a new initiative in crypto early next year. Can you just remind us, is this going to be derivatives on crypto? ETFs on crypto? Or you're actually thinking about the actual currencies?

It's going to be spot physical crypto, yes. What is -- because now it's the right timing because the dimension of the market in Italy, we -- based on our estimates, I'm asking to my colleagues, which is the total -- the moment -- we have now in Italy 2.4 million of clients, not us, but overall in Italy, there are 2.4 million of clients that they are -- that they own physical crypto. And with the total assets for more than EUR 3 billion. So now we can say that it is a market that is ready to be addressed. And what is very important to underline that based on -- because clearly, we made quite a significant study on the market and so on. What is the most desired by the client is to have the possibility to interact with a platform managed by an established bank. So this is -- and what is important that because we are monitoring also what the clients are doing. Many of these clients are our clients for other reasons. And so clearly, we -- as soon as we are going to be able to launch to be up and running, this is going to generate immediately an interesting amount of commissions.

[Operator Instructions]

Excuse me, just -- because now the CFO made me a clarification because on the -- so coming back to the questions by Ian. So it's -- so the total stock is 20%. But if we look to the net sales, the inflows, the new net inflows on assets under custody is...

38%.

It's nearly 40%. So this is the reason why this is a quite impressive trend that is underway.

Mr. Foti, there are no more questions registered at this time. I turn the conference back to you for any closing remarks.

No. Thank you for attending our conference. And as usual, we are available for any additional comments, deep dive in the numbers, in the concepts that we discussed together. And so thank you again, and talk to you soon.