FirstRand Limited (FSR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. As we activate the new normal and transition to remote working, it is my pleasure to welcome everyone to this 24th AGM of FirstRand Limited. Please bear with us as we proceed with our first virtual AGM, and thank you for joining us electronically. I will be chairing the meeting this morning in my capacity as Chairman of the Board of Directors. I would like to acknowledge our joint meeting facilitators, being Lumi Insights and Computershare, that will assist in hosting our first virtual AGM. The following chairpersons of all Board committees are present. For the Audit Committee, Mr. Grant Gelink; Risk, Capital Management and Compliance, Mr. Russell Loubser; Remuneration Committee, Mr. Louis Von Zeuner; and for the Social Ethics and Transformation Committee as well as Directors' Affairs and Governance Committee, Ms. Amanda Tandiwe Nzimande. Also present are our executive directors being: Mr. Alan Pullinger, our CEO; Mr. Harry Kellan, Finance Director; and Ms. Mary Vilakazi, our Chief Operating Officer. We also have with us this morning our external audit partners, Mr. Grosskopf from PwC, and Mr. Black from Deloitte. They are available to respond to questions from shareholders that may arise from the summarized financial statements or the annual integrated report. We also have Ms. Carnita Low, the group company secretary. Our legal advisers are also present as well as various executives online who can respond to questions in need. The Notice of the Annual General Meeting was delivered to all shareholders together with the summarized financial statements timeously and have been available on the company website since 9 October 2020. I will take this as read. We shall now proceed with the business of the meeting. It is the intention that voting at this meeting should be by poll in terms of the memorandum of incorporation of the company. Such poll voting shall be conducted electronically through the electronic online facility provided. Shareholders entitled to vote at the AGM would have already completed the mandatory registration process with Computershare and being successfully authenticated. Computershare have been appointed the company scrutineers. We have a quorum present and I, therefore, declare this meeting a properly constituted Annual General Meeting of the shareholders of the company. I will now open the voting on the electronic online facility, and voting can be performed at any time during the meeting until I close the voting on the resolutions. You will be able to vote on any of the resolutions and do not have to wait for the resolution to be tabled. I will invite questions on each resolution as it is tabled. Shareholders may raise questions electronically by using the Message icon on your screen. Carnita will read out any questions specific to the resolution tabled, and the questions will appear on the question screen as they are submitted. You will be able to send questions from the beginning of the meeting and whilst the poll is open. I will allow questions pursuant to the motions to be discussed during the meeting as the motions are presented as well as after I have tabled the last resolution on the agenda. Voting will then close after we have responded to all questions. I will advise you shortly before the voting will close. Carnita will now advise you on how to cast your votes on the electronic platform. Thanks, Carnita.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If you have registered as a shareholder, you will see a voting screen. To vote, select your voting direction from the options on the screen. A confirmation message will appear to indicate that your vote has been received. You can change your vote if you need to at any time before the voting poll closes by selecting another voting direction. If you want to cancel your vote, please use the functionality provided and resubmit your vote. Instructions on how to vote are included on the virtual meeting instructions available on the portal as well as the self-help video. You can reference these at any time during the meeting. Voting can take place at any time once the poll has opened, and once the Chairman has indicated that the voting is closed, your last selection will be submitted. There was also a question from Mr. [ Anthony Walker ] on the meeting question portal asking whether we will allow questions as the actual resolutions are tabled. Mr. [ Walker ], you will notice that we have amended our protocol. We will address questions after every single resolution is tabled so that we can address this appropriately and timeously. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thanks, Carnita. I will now go through the resolutions tabled for approval. The first item on the agenda is to present the audited financial statements of the company for the year ended 30 June 2020 contained in the annual integrated report and summarized annual financial statements in the notice booklet. Shareholders would have received a copy of the summarized financial statements of the company. As approved by the Board of Directors of the company for the financial year ended 30 June 2020. The report of the Audit Committee that is available in the annual integrated report or on the group's website reflects how the committee has discharged its duties during the year under review. The Audit Committee Chairman, Mr. Gelink, the partners of PricewaterhouseCoopers and Deloitte & Touche, Mr. Grosskopf and Mr. Black, respectively, who were responsible for the 2020 FirstRand group audit are available to respond to questions, which relate to the financial statements. Are there any questions at this stage?

Mr. Chair, we have a comment from [ Shakir Pratab ]. Mr. [ Pratab ] says, as a shareholder, I'm very pleased to be able to attend the AGM by video conferencing. It's one of the benefits of COVID-19 and is an advancement of digitization. For future AGMs, after the end of COVID-19, will FirstRand still allow shareholders to attend the AGM virtually? What I am asking is for FirstRand to continue allowing shareholders to attend the AGM virtually in future.

Thank you very much for that question. We've obviously had to adapt to the current COVID-19 pandemic. And I think you'll agree with me, there's a lot of learning by doing -- that's happening as we go along, and we'll certainly review the efficacy of meetings of this nature as we move forward. So thank you very much for that comment. Are there any more questions?

Nothing at this stage, Mr. Chair.

Great. Thank you very much. The second item on the agenda is to present the FirstRand Social Ethics and Transformation Committee report contained in the 2020 annual integrated report. If there are any questions on the report, the Chairman of the Social Ethics and Transformation Committee, Ms. Nzimande is available to respond. Are there any questions at this stage?

There are no questions at this stage, Mr. Chair. Perhaps if we do have questions, we can revisit this at a later stage during the meeting; but at the moment, no question.

Great. Thank you very much. We will now move to each of the resolutions. Please be reminded that you can vote on any of the resolutions at any time until the voting is closed. I do not intend to read out the full wording of resolutions but will refer to the item for approval. More than 50% of the voting rights exercised on each of the ordinary resolutions that follow is required for each resolution to be adopted. Four directors retire by rotation in terms of the MOI, and 2 directors offer themselves for reelection. It is the intention that the reelection of these directors should be conducted on an individual basis. Ordinary resolution #1.1 is to reelect Mr. Russell M Loubser, who is retiring by rotation as an independent nonexecutive director in accordance with the provisions of the MOI. Mr. Loubser, being eligible, offers himself for reelection, and his CV was included in the Notice of AGM. The Board recommends that Mr. Loubser should be reelected. I now put before the meeting that Mr. Loubser be reelected as an independent nonexecutive director. Ordinary resolution #1.2 is to reelect Ms. Thandie Mashego, who is retiring by rotation as an independent nonexecutive director in accordance with the provisions of the MOI. Ms. Mashego, being eligible, offers herself for reelection, and her CV was included in the Notice of AGM. The Board recommends that Ms. Mashego be reelected. I now put before the meeting that Ms. Mashego be reelected as an independent nonexecutive director. The following 2 directors will be retiring as independent nonexecutive directors at the conclusion of this 2020 Annual General Meeting and do not offer themselves for reelection: one, Ms. Amanda Tandiwe Nzimande; and two, Ms. Mary Sina Bomela. I now turn to the fifth item on the agenda, ordinary resolution #1.3, is to reelect -- is to elect Ms. Zelda Roscherr as an independent nonexecutive director. Ms. Roscherr was appointed by the Board to fill a vacancy during the year upon the recommendation of the Nominations Committee. In accordance with the company's act and the company's MOI, Ms. Roscherr is recommended by the Board for election by the shareholder, and her CV was included in the Notice of AGM. Are there any questions at this stage?

Mr. Chair, there are no questions on the chat at this stage. There is one. It relates to remuneration. Shall we deal with that when we get to the remuneration reports, Mr. Chair? But nothing on the election of directors at this stage.

Okay. We'll deal with that question at the remuneration. Thank you for that question. The sixth item on the agenda, ordinary resolution #2.1 and 2.2 is the reappointment of joint auditors, Deloitte & Touche and PricewaterhouseCoopers Inc. The Audit Committee has opined on the proposal to reappoint Deloitte & Touche and PricewaterhouseCoopers Inc. as the joint auditors of FirstRand Limited responsible for the audit of the company for the ensuing year. The Audit Committee has evaluated the independence, performance and skills of the joint auditors and has recommended the proposed appointment to shareholders. This recommendation is further endorsed and supported by the Board. It is accordingly proposed that the appointments be made on a joint basis. If either resolution 2.1 or resolution 2.2 is not passed, the resolution passed shall be effective. 2.1, ordinary resolution 2.1, that Deloitte & Touche be appointed as auditors is put to the meeting. The motion, ordinary resolution 2.2, that PricewaterhouseCoopers Inc. be appointed auditors of the company is put to the meeting. Are there any questions at this stage?

Mr. Chair, there are no questions relating to the reappointment of the auditors at this stage.

Thank you very much. The seventh item on the agenda, ordinary resolution #3 is the general authority to issue authorized but unissued ordinary shares for cash. The percentage of voting rights required for this ordinary resolution #3 to be adopted is at least 75% of the voting rights exercised on the resolution. The directors are authorized to issue all or any of the authorized but unissued ordinary shares in the capital of the company for cash, subject to the aggregate number of shares to be allotted and issued in terms of this resolution shall be limited to 1.5%, which constitutes 84,093,726 of the number of the company's shares in issue. The motion for the general authority is put to the meeting. Are there any questions at this stage, Carnita?

There are no questions, Mr. Chair, relating to agenda item 7.

Thank you very much. The eighth item on the agenda, ordinary resolution #4, pertaining to the signing authority. It is proposed that any director and/or the company secretary of the company be and is hereby authorized to do all such things and sign all such documents as may be necessary for or incidental to the implementation of the resolutions passed at the AGM of the company and set out in this notice. The motion for the signing authority is put to the meeting. Are there any questions at this stage?

Nothing at this stage, Mr. Chair, on this specific resolution.

Thank you very much. I will complete items 9 and 10 on the agenda before taking questions on these resolutions as they are related. The ninth item on the agenda is to endorse by way of a nonbinding advisory vote, the advisory endorsement of the company's remuneration policy, excluding the remuneration of the nonexecutive directors and the members of the Board committees for their services as directors and members of committees. In terms of King IV, we have requested shareholders' endorsement of our remuneration policies in the form of an advisory vote. I propose that the company's remuneration policy be endorsed. The tenth item on the agenda is to endorse by way of a nonbinding advisory vote, the advisory endorsement of the company's remuneration implementation report. In terms of King IV, we have requested shareholders' endorsement of our remuneration implementation report in the form of an advisory vote. I propose that the company's remuneration policy be endorsed. Are there any questions at this stage?

Mr. Chair, there are. I will start with the question from [ Tracy Davies ], and she asked me to start with her second question, which reads, what is the evidential basis that the group uses to determine that there is such a significant risk to senior management leaving the group that it is necessary to pay these COVID bonuses. Does the Board genuinely believe that these payments are fair and ethical in the context of the social and economic devastation brought by the COVID-19 this year? And is it not concerned about the implications of the [ lodges ] for further worsening inequality in our society?

Thank you very much. I will ask our Chair of the Remuneration Committee to respond first. Mr. Louis Von Zeuner.

Thank you, Chairman. I think, firstly, in terms of retention, I think it's important, Chairman, that we will just highlight, again, the fact that FirstRand is a large systemic institution and the custodian of billions of rands of savings of the South African publican business. With that, a customer base of 8 million, this is an institution that is complex and important in the broader South African economy. The skill set chairperson to run a business of this nature is limited; and therefore, we have experienced offers being made not only by competitors but even global institutions looking at the scarce resources and the talent of this group, which is well sought after. So our assessment of retention is, of course, what we experienced from our people in terms of offers they receive and general activity in the market as well as looking at several pieces of research into the market. And for FirstRand to recover out of 1 in 100-year event like COVID, it is extremely important that we retain our talent and get them to focus without being concerned on reward at the task at hand. I think what is also important is to note that how we have applied our remuneration philosophy in the past is that we do subscribe to fairness and equality. But Chairman also saw equality in terms of value of work, et cetera. So our research and as well as the fact that our senior executives have seen certain remuneration awards not vesting because of economic conditions and the likelihood that it will not happen in terms of past awards that's currently in flight, vesting, the remuneration committee and the Board felt necessary and justified to put a COVID award instrument to management, which I believe in due course into the future will be to the benefit of all shareholders of this group.

Mr. Chair, there's an additional part to this question, and I'm going to read it. It's also from [ Tracy Davies ], and it reads as follows: The group's remuneration policy commits to always ensuring that management should never do better than shareholders. Earlier this year, Mr. Pullinger said that the group believed that the President was right to ask business leadership to step up and make sacrifices given what is at stake in our country. The group has now rewarded COVID-19 instrument retention bonuses to senior management because previous year's incentives may not vest due to the COVID crisis. These bonuses are not linked to performance, are in addition to management's already extremely generous remuneration and dwarf any salary sacrifices made in response to the President's call. Mr. Jardine has also said that management should be recognized when navigating a severe operational challenge. I, therefore, have 3 questions. The first having already been addressed. The question she asked as well as isn't this what management is already paid enormous packages to do.

Gee, I can respond. I think, firstly, the Remuneration Committee and Board goes through a very thorough exercise every year to assess the level of remuneration obviously. I can categorically state that we believe our executives are well remunerated but fairly remunerated and definitely not at the upper end of the market. So we constantly look at these comparative information to assess that we are not out of line with competitors and other role players in the market. I think as for sacrifices, one should stand back and look at 1 or 2 events, firstly, Chairman, to draw the attention to the nonvesting of the 2017 awards, where the Remco had the discretion to change the rule of that scheme, we did not do that. And therefore, 2017 did not rest with the likelihood that '18 and '19 will not vest either because of the ROE knockout. I think those 3 years of awards, if one compare the allocation to the awards of COVID, is really 50% of what those awards were made in '17, '18, '19. And I think what is important is that we have applied several other measures by not allowing salary increases, deferring of cash bonuses, senior managers making 30% contribution, as requested by the President to our SPIRE funds. And I think there are now multiple years of nonvesting of executive awards. I think one can, therefore, say that there has indeed be sacrifices. As there has been impact on shareholders, one can look in our integrated report, the wealth of senior executives and the impact that a lower share price and the economy at large had add on that. So with an award that will give us 4 years of retention and ensure recovery to the levels of performance of 2019, plus the sacrifices made by our senior executives, it was the view of the Remuneration Committee and the Board that a 50% of what was initially awarded -- and let me be clear also that only in 2023 can there be a vesting of an LTI and a COVID award. It's in 2021 and '22, it's either of the 2. So Chairman, we debated this, and we felt at the time that, that was in the interest of all shareholders and stakeholders and fair to management that we put this award into play.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ms. [ Davies ] noted that we started with the wrong part of question first, so we apologize to her for that. But she does have a third part to her question, which is -- says, please can the Chair of the Remuneration Committee to tell us whether or not dividends are paid on shares that have been awarded but have not vested? If so, where are these amounts disclosed in the remuneration report?

Chairman, I would like to bring in the -- Harry on this matter. And where it comes to the detail of that nature, I think he is best suited to respond to that question. Harry?

Thank you, Chairman of Rem Committee. No dividends accrue on any of their LTI structures, so these are not shares with dividends. So there's 0 to disclose in totality.

Thank you. Are there any other questions?

There are. We have a question from [ Asif Muhammad ]. Chairperson, can you please give the rationale for giving management additional incentives as current awards and incentives was not in the money? Can you address why management only get upside substantial rewards but do not share in downside pain when profits are under pressure? Are you and the Board reinforcing the view and encouragement of the ugly face and greed of capitalism? I echo the valid and justified comments of [ Tracy Davies ].

Thank you very much. Louis?

Yes. Chairman, I note the question and some of the comments to the latter part of the question. I think what is important is that I, again, refer back to if we look at the incentive that was put in place, management, in all likelihood, as I have said, 2017 did not vest. 2018, in all likelihood, will also not vest because of the ROE knockout; and likewise, we think for 2019. So if you look at the detail of the CEO remuneration in our integrated report, you will see the quantum that I have referred to of only 50% of what was awarded now coming into play in the event of the COVID scheme. In terms of the executives and downside, again, minimum shareholder requirements to our executive management also will demonstrate the impact on the share price had on personal wealth invested into FirstRand. And again, if you look at our senior executives, way in excess of the minimum requirements that is in place. So as a Remuneration Committee, I think we also debated that matter and felt comfortable that this is not in the case of only upside to management. I think when you defer payments to 2021, as is the case with cash, with the mandate to the Remuneration Committee to defer it further, the discretion of the Remuneration Committee with downside adjustments to reward into the future, I think it is a clear evidence that management and the executives take the same pressure, and by that doing, the Remuneration Committee honoring the commitment that manage will not outperform the shareholders. I think what is also important is that one must understand that the impact of an economic environment that is problematic, yes, and indeed, problematic to everyone. One must also pay and give recognition for the job that management has done in the first 9 months of the financial year, how management has navigated us through getting the organization ready for COVID and now also the recovery. And I think if you read the integrated report, you will find a very detailed and [ thorough ] and enhanced scorecard that has been put in place with a balance between the ESG principles and financial performance, which, in a way, is an even more strict application of performance, conditions into the future. And my last comment, Chairman, is that this group has and as is demonstrated by an assessment of the levels of reward, has acted with great responsibility in the past as is borne out by the fact that our senior executives is not the top remunerated executives in the market. I think that responsibility and that application of our judgment as a Remco will continue to remain as we honor our remuneration going forward. All of this taken into account where -- and the Remco felt comfortable with the decision that we have come to and also being very sensitive to the conditions of South Africa and its people at large.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have a question from [ Christopher Logan ]. [indiscernible] remuneration advisory endorsement resolutions, it stands out that FirstRand has a great remuneration philosophy and policy, as set out on Page 108 of the integrated report, which stresses alignment. Can the Chairman please advise what are the specific minimum shareholding requirements to ensure longer-term alignment, as mentioned in the LTI narrative?

Harry, I will unfortunately have to look at you again in terms of a detail of the minimum shareholder requirements. Harry, if you could help me.

Thank you, Chairman. The details of minimum shareholding requirement is actually disclosed on Page 174 of our annual integrated report, the summary of which is management -- senior management are required to hold a value of at least 50% of the prior 3 years LTI that vested post-tax, i.e., 50% of what was vested over the last 3 years post-tax. That policy was implemented in 2017. Individuals allowed a 5-year period in which to build up the minimum shareholding requirement. The first test of which will be September 2022.

Thank you.

Thanks.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have another question from [ Greer Blizzard ]. Good morning, Mr. Chair. This question is for the Chair of the Remuneration Committee. FirstRand commits to ensuring that people get paid fairly for their work and that no employee is paid less than a living wage. One of the objectives of FirstRand's remuneration policy is to promote positive outcomes and fair transparency and consistent remuneration practices. As such, will FirstRand commit to disclosing the gap between its highest-paid and lowest-paid employees in order to enable the shareholders to assess FirstRand's commitment to transparent remuneration practices and payment of a living wage?

Thank you, Chairman. I think what is important is also then to highlight that the bulk of employees obviously forms part of a bargaining unit where there are engagements with the unions that oversee the activities of this group. And I think a level of oversight from those entities are obviously quite important. I think I would like to draw attention again to our comment in the integrated report that as we are in a 1 in 100-year event at the moment, and as the Chairman said at the start of this meeting that this new normal is now upon us, you will see that in our focus areas for the Remuneration Committee going forward that we undertake to engage with all stakeholders in refinement of our remuneration policies and approach. In terms of what will be disclosed in future, at this stage, I cannot make that comment. It will surely be something that we will deliberate at the Remuneration Committee, but can I give the comfort to say that, as we have a specific focus at the top earners in the organization, so we have a focus to the bottom end rewards as well. And that, we will continue to do to see how we ensure that we stay with our principle of fairness and equality in reward for the work and the complexity of the work being done. And I'm sure as we look at information from the market and studies they are being done at the moment, this will surely be a topic that will be further deliberated in upcoming Remuneration Committee meetings.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The next question is from [ Anthony Walker ]. Just curious as to why other banks haven't awarded COVID bonuses then and why the execs should receive a COVID bonus as well as their other bonuses in the third year if they come above water. In other words, they get a kicker in the third year. By this stage, they will have other incentives to look forward to. As to the sacrifice, this amounted to approximately 1.92% of the total package of the CEO. Please let's not tout this as a sacrifice.

Chairman, I think the actions of other banks, I can obviously not speak to. But I have little doubt that in terms of our disclosure to the market and in some instances, having to go first that it will be interesting to see how other organizations, banks and so forth will deal with the impact of COVID on the reward. And I think there are signs out in the market already on that. In terms of the third year, where there is a possibility then that your 2020 LTIs and 1/3, and I want to emphasize only 1/3 of the COVID award can vest in 2023. I think we debated and shared with the audience here today our sentiment on retention. I think, as I have indicated the likelihood that, by 2023, there will have been multiple years of nonvesting of awards to senior management as well as the fact that, in 2023, we have got the target set for a return to performance levels of June 2019, that if one take all of that into account as well as the additional upside that we have our senior executives locked in for a period of 4 years. We felt that the vesting of the 2020 LTI, plus 1/3 of the COVID award, will be just a reward for an effort of substance at that stage. But we have also in our engagement with investors and shareholders made it clear that we honor the principle that management cannot outperform the shareholder. And I want to just add that albeit that the current environment and climate makes it rather difficult to commit on certain targets, mindful that this discussion of the COVID instrument took place in June, July of this year, let's focus also on some of the performance indicators highlighted in our annual report where we refer to FRM principles, issues of capital, issues of the health of franchises. So the mere fact that this is a time-based vesting instrument is absolutely correct. But there are very clear performance indicators that the Remuneration Committee uses in the consideration of award or application of its judgment that I think will, again, when we get to that stage, demonstrate the responsibility by which this Remco and Board look at the reward of our people.

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, there is a question which we'd like to acknowledge from [ Chris Logan ]. It relates to financial and historic performance. If I can request the meeting to allow us to answer the remuneration questions first, we will revert to Mr. Logan's question as soon as we completed all the remuneration policy and implementation questions. And in that respect, the next question is from [ Emma Shuster ]. Please can the Board commit to sharing the research that the Chair of the Remuneration Committee referred to in relation to fears that senior executives will leave the group if their long-term awards are not paid?

Chairman, again, I think one note, this question, and we will obviously deliberate on this. I think the one thing that we had ourselves in is the -- firstly, the integrity of this institution, the integrity of the Board and therefore, the integrity of the Remco. I think our track record as a Remco and a Board in terms of how we have performed, and I want to again emphasize the fact that the Board and the Remco had the full discretion to allow a 2017 scheme to vest. We did not. We did not change the rules. So I hope that the manner in which we discharge our duties, and have done in the past, will give us the vote of confidence of shareholders that we will act with this in a responsible way. I would not, as an individual, I mean, commit now to say that information will be made available. But we will deliberate it in the Remco, and I'm sure that we will, in our deliberations, decide on the appropriate information that should be made available where needed to substantiate and the decisions that we have taken. We pride ourselves in that. And as I say, our value systems and integrity is something nonnegotiable, and I'm sure that the disclosure of information into the future we will act in a manner that, that aspect does not become questionable.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have another comment and question from Mr. [ Asif Muhammad ]. With respect, Chairperson, the response by Mr. Von Zeuner on behalf of the Board, to [ Tracy ] and my questions is just unacceptable. What the Remuneration Chair is saying is that management will always win at the expense of shareholders. Are the Board and Mr. Von Zeuner listening to our comments and questions? Does not seem so in my opinion.

Mr. Chairman, I would refer and then hand back to you also to comment on the statement. But in the integrated report that we have published, on Page 108, we do give the undertaking to our shareholders, and we do listen to these comments. And we make the statement that management cannot outperform or do better than our shareholders. And that principle, we will apply. And in application of that principle, it will mean that if there's downside, it will apply to management, and they will not outperform the shareholder. That is, in terms of our philosophy, the undertaking that I can give. And I think we have honored it in the past, and we've honored it in how we dealt with issues this year as well.

Okay. Thank you very much. I think Mr. [ Muhammad ] and [ Tracy Davies ] as well, I was holding my comments to the end, but I'll make them now. I think the issue of inequality in our society is a burning platform for all of us, and this Board is very mindful of our social context. Executive remuneration in general globally is a matter of huge attention, and it's something that we are very mindful of. Our appreciation for our social conditions are reflected in the numerous activities that we have in society, and we can share some of the detail with you if you're not aware of those. So it is not an issue that we take lightly. The deliberations of this Board when it comes to remuneration and executive remuneration in particular takes that into account. We are also mindful that FirstRand is a systemic institution. And as we deliberate on remuneration, of course, we do look around us and see what's happening in the market. But that's not a target for us. And that's why our Chair of our Remuneration Committee has pointed out that by no stretch of the imagination are our executives remunerated way ahead of our peers. And so the focus for us, and we are the first out of the starting blocks on this, is to stabilize FirstRand through COVID. And again, Ms. [ Davies ], I did say that our team here have responded in a stellar fashion to a circumstance that no one anticipated. But to really be clear, we want FirstRand to be standing strong post-COVID, and we think that the measures that we have taken will go a long way in doing that. Now very clearly, shareholders are not pleased with the COVID instrument as it was constructed. But I want to point out that, over the past few years, and the integrated report points this out, we have been on a journey with our remuneration architecture. You'll see that our executives received no increases. The bonus pool was well below the profits and also the issue of pay mix. We've started to move down a road of changing our pay mix to be heavier -- to be weighted more heavier to the long-term incentive scheme. So all of these issues taken together brings us to the point where we are this morning. And I want to assure you that we'll continue to move in the right direction on these matters. But certainly, we are mindful and appreciate the state of society, specifically here in South Africa. So thank you. Are there any other...

There is another question, Mr. Chair, from Mr. [ Shakir Pratab ]. I agree with the points raised by my fellow shareholders on remuneration. As FirstRand has not declared a final dividend, why has there not been any salary sacrifice being made by the Chairman and the executives due to COVID-19, as is the case with large corporates in the U.S.A.? Our own shares in Citibank, JPMorgan and BNP Paribas. I have been very impressed by the performance of Jamie Dimon's management of JPMorgan and the impressive performance of JPMorgan's share price after COVID-19. I made my investments in banks after the impact of COVID-19, and I found that FirstRand's share price performance has lagged compared to my investments in JPMorgan, BNP Paribas and Citibank. As South African banking investments go, I view FirstRand as a top-tier international bank, at the same level as JPMorgan, Citibank and BNP Paribas. However, FirstRand has not paid a dividend, whereas Citibank, JPMorgan have been able to still declare dividends due to an excellent performance despite COVID-19.

Okay. Thank you, Mr. [ Pratab ], the executives and certainly, I, as the Chairman, have made that sacrifice earlier this year in response to the request from the President. I think that the -- with regard to dividends, the -- we, guided by our prudential authority, have issued a guideline in that regard, and it is something that we will take our lead from them. I think FirstRand is operating in economic conditions in South Africa that are specific to South Africa. And so I think your comparatives can certainly be discussed more fully with you should you wish to pursue that discussion. Thank you. Are there any other questions?