FNM S.p.A. (FNM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. This is the Chorus Call conference operator. Welcome, and thank you for joining the FNM Group 1H 2022 Consolidated Results Presentation. [Operator Instructions] At this point, I'd like to hand you over to Ms. Minazzi, Investor Relations Manager. Ms. Minazzi, have the floor.

Thank you. Thank you, and good afternoon. Welcome, and thank you very much for attending this conference call on the results of the FNM Group as at the 30th of June, 2022. Mr. Piuri and Ms. Montanari will illustrate the consolidated results of the FNM Group for the first months of 2022. At the end of the presentation, there will be the possibility to ask questions. Let me hand you over to Mr. Piuri.

Now good afternoon to you all. On my behalf as well, I'm very pleased to be able to report results of the first half of 2022 which, despite the overall global context that is complex, we -- or the results have confirmed that the FNM Group altogether, since it shows resilience, is capable so to manage the variables of its own businesses. As we said yesterday, during -- after the approval of the Board of Directors with our press release, all the items, revenues, EBITDA and EBIT are growing versus the same period of 2021. And this takes into account the accounts, including MISE consolidated as of February 2021, but also the pro forma results of the company. If we take the pro forma results, we see an improvement of 15% of revenues, EBITDA, 20%, EBIT, 22%, with a net financial position, which is stable. So considering the context, we're very satisfied of the results of the first 6 months of the year. In a while, Valentina will give you the details of the single individual business and segments thereof. Let me just tell you that the capability to manage a variable, especially traffic and demand for transportation, well over the first 6 months, what comes out is that for all segments, there is an increase of demand. But it becomes even more positive when it comes to motorways, Both Serravalle and Pedemontana, heavy-duty traffic is even higher than what it was before the beginning of the pandemic, 2019. Whereas when it comes to other transportation, there is an increase of, let's say, light traffic vehicles. It's growing quite well, although Serravalle is a bit below 2019. By the context, as you know, it's quite complex. Let's consider transportation on a road, so road transportation. In the case of road transportation as well, data are positive. Quite a considerable increase, for a road transportation have an increase of 30% of demand for trains, so we have an increase by 50% of demand. Here, we are witnessing a progressive return to the use of public transportation. As to regulated businesses, we are somewhat far away from the pre-COVID data. As for trains, the demand to and from Milan transportation, the organization of different service companies in Milan are still in a remote working modality. And we still have a number of passengers who are not going to work live in presence. In the next few months, we should have to understand where this is becoming a structural trend, although we can recover some passengers. Now in the second part of the year, it will be interesting to see, for instance, what happens in the world of university students. In the first part of 2022, they partially attended classes live. So the picture confirms overall the positive trends that we had foreseen specifically. And I'll leave the floor to Valentina, who will give you the details of different businesses. What we see is that an overall increase in different segments, with different percentages for revenues. So trains, plus 11%, road transportation, plus 14%, and motorways, plus 20% overall. When it comes to FNM activities, as such, Ro.S.Co. and Services, revenues are not still aligned. This is due to the fact that we are still negotiating the service contract with Trenord, and we have here some delays because of the delivery of certain trains. But we are partly speaking of a phasing delay. As to margins, let's take EBITDA. Now, trains have a positive EBITDA. Motorways, plus 33% of EBITDA versus the same period of last year, whereas we have a negative service for Ro.S.Co. services and road transportation. The same applies to churn order. Now reasons, factors are different over and above what I said before about Ro.S.Co. activities. Within FNM, in particular, there is an increase of costs connected to services, and the number of the services necessary to manage all of the projects that have launched in these months by the group. And which require an involvement of skills and people, which the group is trying to find. As to the rate of transportation, the important data is rated by the increase in the cost of fuels. The main company of the group in Verona has 150 buses fueled by natural gas, and you know quite well what has occurred with prices of natural gas. And then we have the issue of government contributions. In this moment, the government resources devoted to contributions are given on the basis of cash and not on the basis of competence, and so we are lagging behind 1 year. And so with the ministry, we are defining the levels of contribution or grants given by the ministry, by the government for 2021. Now as to 2022, the ministry has prepared a form to be filled out by the companies, which then will calculate the requirements. And the grants will be issued later on the year after. As to Trenord, for this first 6 months of the year, we haven't taken into account the government grants and contributions. And therefore, the results are also affected by the fact that we still do not know how much the government will give us based on our requirements. I'd like to give the floor to Valentina, who will go into the details of the different segments, and then I'll come back later on.

Now good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and let me get into the details of the different segments. Let's go to trains, the regulated business where we have higher revenues by 11.2%. This is due to a program, a higher service revenues from program agreement, designing activities, network maintenance, and then partially offset by the efficiency mechanism provided by the service contract. And then we have higher leasing revenues on the rolling stock in the use of Trenord. Now the increase of revenues from program contract or agreement, as I said, are partially offset by the efficiency mechanism, which is envisaged year-on-year in the service contract. And then as I said, we have higher revenues on the leasing on the rolling stock given to use to Trenord, related to investments made by Regione Lombardia, and an increase of income from commercial activities, rents and the sale of inventory residues, inventories which are no longer used by the business. As to the EBITDA, from EUR 3.4 million to EUR 8.7 million, so an increase from 5.3% EBITDA margin to 12.2%. This is due to lower increase -- lower the proportion increase in costs, and then, lower personnel costs due also to the recovery or decrease of sickness leaves or allowances, and then higher provisions for rolling stock fleet maintenance, and an increase in utilities and IT systems expenses. In 2021, we had a negative one-off of EUR 1.1 million which, of course, affects the dynamic or the comparison between the first half of 2022 and the first half of 2021. Ro.S.Co., you can see an increase in revenues by 0.5%. This is due to lower revenue sell from rolling stock leasing due to the renewal of leasing contracts and contracts on TAF and CSA trains, which are progressively unwritten with Trenord with decreasing leasing costs. All of these was foreseen, and the effects actually materialized. And then higher proceeds from service contracts and IT services provided to group -- companies. In the first half of 2021, we had a positive one-off from the sale of a building of EUR 300,000. The EBITDA went down -- goes down from 23.9% to 20.8% ministry due to higher personnel costs and higher operating expenses. As to the road passenger mobility, we have an increase of revenues from EUR 60.1 million to EUR 68.7 million. Now due to the reasons I have already mentioned, we see an EBITDA from EUR 6.2 million to EUR 5 million, which is basically due to the fuel costs, energy costs and also of subcontracting. Now, revenues are growing because of the higher revenues from transportation, more passenger transported and an increase of outsourced services, and also car sharing services are increasing. Then we have higher proceeds from public contracts and grants, mainly because of the higher euro per kilometer recognized by the Regione Veneto, the Veneto region. We have government compensations in line year-on-year, EUR 7.2 million versus EUR 71 million in the first half of 2021, of which EUR 2.7 million versus EUR 4.4 million compensations due to lower revenues. EUR 4.4 million in the year and EUR 2.8 million for compensations for additional services. We have also released provisions by EUR 0.5 million to -- was, as said, release because of the settlements of certain production agreements that were closed in 2020. As to the motorways segments, have an increase of revenues by 23%. The most relevant components here we have, which is an increase of greater traffic. Traffic has been higher versus what it was in 2019 for heavy-duty vehicles, and almost a recovery for a light heavy duties or highlighted duty vehicles and an increase in tariffs that we had ever since January 2022. Higher revenues are from service areas, concessions, thanks to traffic increase and renewal of some contracts at more favorable economic conditions. And then we have EBITDA, which grows because of an increase in traffic and an increase of concession fees, higher net provisions because of planned maintenance, and greater costs related to maintenance or planned maintenance work, higher labor costs which are mainly related to redundancy incentives. So that to make our structure more efficient and in line with the future requirements. As to Trenord, I'll leave the floor to Mr. Piuru who also, in his capacity of CEO of Trenord as well, knows the company very, very well.

Thank you, Valentina. I said it already, the positive data is the progressive increase in passengers. Although when it comes to the comparison with 2019, we have still 25% of passengers to recover on a yearly basis. The other side of the coin of what I said before, about the organization of work in Milan and the presence of a number of people still working from home, so this is quite significant. The increase of ticketing revenues is greater or proportionately greater than the number of passengers that we transport because the average revenue per passenger has grown. The use of trains that we have in this moment, unlike 2019, many passengers are not commuters. So these are people who use the train a couple of days, week or months, and therefore, do not enjoy a discount versus commuters that have a subscription. So positive data. Ticketing revenues, as I said, are going up, grants and compensations from the government that we believe are growing. But we have to -- we are lagging behind one here. For 2021, we completed the calculations that the ministry will do. The required or the necessary requirements are around EUR 75 million. But here, we haven't posted anything in terms of grants and compensation by the government. We're waiting for a decision by the ministry, and for this reason, you still find a negative EBIT. Although, as you can see, there is a big difference versus what it was in 2021. Now as to Trenord, we have an increase in costs. We are progressively increasing the number of personnel to make up for the people that left the company in 2020, 2021, so as to be able to then make sure that we have enough people to manage the service in 2022, the year when the service went back to full activities. As to MISE, we have more or less the same thing. Revenues are growing by 30%. EBITDA goes up quite considerable. Not comparable to other businesses, but this is a very, very positive data. Valentina, let's now go on to the waterfall of results. From EUR 93.4 million of EBITDA, we do not have extraordinary gains or expenses. We have EUR 47.4 million of write-down and depreciation, which includes the depreciation of goodwill and the right of use of ATV. There is an impairment process that was put in place in the first 6 months and greater depreciation on a motorway infrastructure. This leads to an EBIT of EUR 46 million compared with EUR 37.7 million like-for-like in 2021. Lower financial charges due basically to the rate on -- lower rate on the bond versus the bridge loan. Taxes at EUR 13.5 million adjusted in the result of EUR 29.8 million. And considering the performance of company's consolidated equity, Trenord and Pedemontana, well, the result -- the net result goes down to EUR 9.7 million compared to EUR 27.5 million in 2021 negative. And you see here, we closed a group net result with EUR 21.4 million versus a loss of EUR 8.1 million in 2021. CapEx analysis. Now here, you see on the chart, the overall CapEx, EUR 386.4 million, of which EUR 284 million are the investments. Therefore, the train purchase plan financed by Regione Lombardia and EUR 103 million of investments made by the group. As to the cash flow, we should see the in the next -- on the chart on the right. Investments paid EUR 191 million, EUR 129 million related to the train plan financed by Regione Lombardia, which are not included in the adjusted financial position. And then we have advances in payments, and then EUR 62 million financed by the group where we have the main component, EUR 28 million, which is paid by Regione Lombardia related to the train network activities. As to the consolidated cash flow waterfall, next slide, we have a difference in the net working capital. We have here some delays in cashing in money from [ Tulsa ], from [indiscernible] motorways because of interconnections and rules of payments of interconnected activities. We have paid investments, EUR 62 million and then EUR 6.8 million of taxes, and we have a EUR 2.4 million of net financial expenses. We have then acquired another stake in TEM, moving from 18.8% to 22.5% for a consideration of EUR 8.4 million. But we sold the share of Milano Serravalle within pre-payment for EUR 6.3 million. At the end of the period, the cash flow of the period is equal to EUR 0.5 million. And then cash flow from operation, EUR 68 million. And cash flow generation, plus EUR 5.7 million in net financial position. Next slide, you see that it's stable from December to June. We have limited changes, cash flow of the period that we saw before. IFRS 16 effect, EUR 2.4 million, and other effects, EUR 1.9 million, which leads the net financial position from EUR 755.6 million to EUR 644.8 million. We have then -- have a restricted cash deriving from the crediting of grants. And for this reason, you see then the overall financial position at the end of June is EUR 644.8 million. Let me now move on to the chart about debts. So EUR 644.8 million of net financial position, of which EUR 100 million are the net financial position of MISE, and then we have to take into account EUR 111.8 million of IFRIC 12 effect on financed rolling stock. And the gross debt is EUR 973 million, adjusted net financial position of EUR 756.6 million, and EUR 43 million of payables for funded investments. And as I said, the gross debt is EUR 973 million, which is made up of 67% bond, 19% that of Milano Serravalle, which is going down. These are debts which are progressively reimbursed. And then we have a component of EIB financing, and then we have a share of debts related to leasing contracts in line with IFRS 16. That is 86% non-current at fixed rate, and the average cost is 1.35%. We have a liquidity headroom available, uncommitted credit lines of EUR 141 million. And the rating in the period maintained stable, both for Moody's and Fitch. As to the debt maturity structure, next slide. We have a debt, which is basically a long term. The main component thereof is the bond with maturity in 2026. And the MISE debt maturity is stable and it's bound to decline between 2022 and 2026. At this point, we can move on to the guidance, thank you. To conclude, as to the end of 2021's full year, we confirm the results which means that we confirm the results, but we shall keep looking at the external variables, cost of energy and inflation, but our outlook is stable. And if we take the pro forma results, revenue, EBITDA, 10%, 15%, revenues are low teens, and the net financial position, in line with the rating agencies' requirements. And then the adjusted net financial position and EBITDA ratio equal to 4, so our own guidance that are confirming this positive trend that we have had so far. Thank you. At this point, we can take your question, and we can then answer your questions.

This is the Chorus call operator. We are now going to begin the Q&A session. [Operator Instructions] Now, the first question by Dario Michi with BNP Paribas Exane.

I have -- the first question is about an update on the regulatory framework. Are there any news about the approval of the financial business plan of MISE? As far as you are concerned, are there going to be any impacts, any effects about the renewal of 1 year only, the contract between Regione Lombardia and Trenord, the renewal are to the current conditions? And I'd like to know also, what kind of maintenance costs related to energy are you facing in this moment? I guess, an increase. And then a question on MISE, do you expect a compensation and grants because of lower revenues in 2020 and 2021? And if you expect such a ground of compensation, can you give us an indication about the amount and then inflation? And do you expect any effect of inflation on service contracts? And what kind of inflation rate have you integrated, have you considered as far as MISE is concerned?

Now, let me answer the first question about regulatory issues or framework. Let's start from Trenord. Now, as is well known, Regione Lombardia, because of the overall global and national context because of variable external factors, with a regional law, so there was no negotiation with the company. So with the regional law, decided to postpone the validity of the existing contract. And in this moment, the situation is the current contract has been postponed until the 30th of June 2023. We are completing the negotiation for the 10-year service contract, and we shall do that more or less at the end of the year. And then we have to address through a number of bureaucratic steps. As to MISE, we cannot -- are not in a condition to give you a date. We expect that within the year, the relevant authorities beside what the new PF is going to be. As to the grants and subsidies by the government or concession by the government. Now in this moment, we haven't included within our accounts such compensation or grants because we haven't had any indication by the authorities. We are following the debate, we haven't -- we have our own assumptions, but we haven't posted in our accounts any compensation or grant for the motorway business. As to the inflation assumptions, well, we have considered around 1% once the new [indiscernible] is approved, we shall take that as a reference to plan the next economic period, so to speak.

Next question with Stefano Gamberini, Equita.

Now, I don't know whether you finished answering the previous questions. So I can ask my own question. Would it be possible say something about your strategic plan after a year, especially about the CapEx last year? It was assumed EUR 160 million, EUR 170 million. This year, EUR 150 million. Next year, EUR 140 million, to get to EUR 850 million in 2025. Is this CapEx plan confirmed, or have you spent something? And is the target for 2025 is confirmed? EBITDA. We have now EUR 190 million of EBITDA, and you have planned EUR 250 million. Costs are changing, cost of energy, cost of gas is changing, but then you also mentioned the problem of traffic, which in certain cases do not go back to normal. I wonder whether the EBITDA, the combination between MISE, FNM is something that you can achieve in terms of target for next year? Or is it difficult to reach in the level you expect in, which I guess [indiscernible] EUR 220 million? And then in the current scenario, euro bond has a rate of 5% because financing is a bit higher. What are you going to do with the Ro.S.Co. contract with Trenord? 5.5% taxes and nominal rate for 20 years. In the current scenario, is extremely low to make profitable investments? I wonder whether there are some thoughts about it. And then what is the relevant authorities doing when it comes to the remuneration given from them to Trenord? And then another question. Mr. Piuru, you mentioned rightly so that results are stable. And that despite the complex scenario, the results are good. Notwithstanding this, Regione Lombardia has decided not to distribute any dividends on the basis of the 2020, 2021 results. Now in your opinion, why? Is that for reasons of cautiousness? And if so, what are these reasons? I mean, the results are stable, and they would allow for a distribution of dividend or dividends. Is there any other investment which is expected to be done, which we are not aware of? And what is your proposal in the future? What kind of considerations have you made? Are there going to be any changes in your own dividend policy, or do you confirm your dividend policy?

I'll start answering, says Mr. Piuri, and then I'll give the floor to Mr. Piuri. Now -- to Valentina, I'm sorry. As to CapEx, within the plan. Last year, we were below our forecast to the plan, and this year, we are in line with our expectations. Within the plan horizon, we believe the overall amount of CapEx is going to be confirmed. And then, the [indiscernible] to the question about EBITDA combination, FNM and Milano Serravalle. Well, clear enough, we are in a context there where the external variables are under control. Not only we kind of control them, but they are out of control in general with speculations and so on. But the management team of the group maintain the position. Now, the pandemic appears to be under control, and we trust in the fact that the turbulence triggered by the war in Ukraine cannot go on for a very long time because these scenarios are going to be different and will not relate only to the revenues and the capital of FNM Group. We believe that in a couple of years, without other elements that we kind of foresee, and considering that we hope that the effects of the -- triggered by the war in Ukraine in the next 2 years go back to normal conditions or closer to starting historical conditions. For this reason, we keep a positive view on EBITDA, FNM and MISE contracts. At Trenord, we are negotiating a 10-year contract. Now this contract becomes very similar to the motorway contracts because this is guided by a PEF with variable costs. In March every year, there is a calculation of what is to be taken into account in the working out of the PEF. With Regione Lombardia, we are discussing a plan which is going to be taken or discussed before March 2023. The idea is that of defining framework at existing conditions and then have, however, the instruments and the possibilities to step in, in the case of meaningful changes that we obviously expect. I mean, speaking of March 2023, the conditions then will not be what the conditions are in this moment. And then your question about the contracts between FNM and Trenord. Now in this moment, as I said, we are renegotiating contracts for a period of 10 years. Such negotiations requires that we get to a more stable condition since we are negotiating a service contract. But also, as I said, in other opportunities, when it comes to this contract, we do not have or we do not believe that we have huge room for maneuver to be able to introduce meaningful changes in terms of the remuneration, but this is something that we are discussing in these very months. The last question on dividends. I can give you the management team view and opinion now. As if we consider the first 6 months of the year, this group shows stability and resilience. And we're confident about the plan in terms of the objectives, targets that we have in the plan. As to the dividends, now the interpretation that we can provide is that there is a majority shareholder that has taken that decision, not so much in the light of the plan, the targets of the plan and the well-being of the company. But because -- or he took his decision on the basis of certain sensitivity as a public administrator. Now, of course, there are economic and social conditions which have been brought about by the global overall context in the region. And that's -- and this is why, you remember we took that decision. The same applies to grants and compensations by the government. Of course, when it comes to FNM, there are companies that are like Trenord which are not part of the consolidated accounts. The FNM system tries to provide confirmation about the stability of the overall business. For instance, the contracts, the relations between service public providers and the central or regional administrations. Now we -- in a nutshell, we do not see any second thoughts about -- we do not have any sort of thoughts about the capability to fulfill the targets of the plan. As far as we are concerned, we confirm whatever we have included in this strategic plan.

Can I go back to what you said about grants? EUR 75 million is what you should have for 2021, which is going to be paid for Trenord. But if I remember well, you recorded last year at EUR 96 million, or am I wrong? Or this EUR 75 million go -- for 2020 -- are going to be posted in 2022?

Now yes, you're right. EUR 96 million, when the requirements and concessions paid for 2020, they were post in 2021, and this is quite consistent as there is a calculation of requirements, which considers the trends of revenues starting from ticketing revenues, cost dynamics. So there is a model which has been developed by the ministry and delivered to the companies. So recovery is ongoing, passengers are coming back, using our services. And for this reason, compensations and grants are going to progressively go down. EUR 75 million is a result of the calculation of the requirements for 2021, and the requirements calculation for 2022 will be even longer.

So EUR 75 million will be posted in the accounts of 2022?

Yes. As I said before, we have a lag of around a year between the calculations made by the ministry and when the money is paid by the government.

[Operator Instructions] The next question by Luca Bacoccoli with Intesa Sanpaolo.

I have a question which goes back to the issue of compensation and grants that you have just mentioned that you haven't received them yet because they haven't been yet formalized by the relevant authorities. But theoretically, if I am not wrong, in the second part of the year, they will have to be recorded and have positive impact on the accounts of Trenord. So the first question is, am I right when I say this? And then net of such payments. I was wondering whether Trenord in full year of 2022 will be able to reach the levels of revenues of last year when you had, however, a higher compensation and grants by the government? Another question about the increase in the stake of minorities that you mentioned before in a company. What is the rationale between -- of this move? Or is it just a financial -- or just financial reasons? You then mentioned an increase in margins, especially in Q2. I was wondering whether this can be also expected in the second part of the year.

Could you please repeat the last question, which was not very clear? We couldn't understand what it was referred to.

I hope you can hear me better now. Now, the second question has to do with the railways business. Now, following an improvement in EBITDA in absolute terms and as the percentage of revenues, what can we expect in the second part of the year?

Train business EBITDA. Now as to the compensation from the government, let me remind you here, I'm speaking in my capacity as CEO of Trenord. Now there is a lag of 1 year between the final calculation and the payments and effects on our account. But despite this, Trenord has been able to prove to be very reactive. It closed the accounts of 2020 without compensations or partial compensation benefiting from tax. It's issued by the government. We closed the 2020 with the negative results, then we went back to positive results the year after. Now, once we will be paid the requirements by the government that we have calculated around EUR 75 million, of course, this will have a very positive effect on Trenord. We are also assessing some other variables because we do not yet know what kind of effect energy and fuel will have on 2020. Trenord. When it comes to Trenord, the cost of energy is related to the cost of network assets and tolls network, which Trenord is paying to the railway infrastructure overall. And we are trying to understand what we have to take into account for 2022. As to TEM, the company that you were mentioning where we have increased our stake, these are restructuring basically of the shareholding portfolio and of the company. Basically, this is -- what has occurred, and then we'll make our own considerations. It's just the restructuring of assets and equity stakes, which relate to the universe in which FNM is part of. As to railways, by the end of the year, we expect to be in line with our budget for Ferrovie Nord. We have the problem of phasing of the reimbursement and -- or the compensation of the order grants by the government. And then please consider that we have a one-off, there's a meaningful portion related to the management of -- or this is allowances, but I think that by the end of the year, we should go back to budget levels. So I think at the half or the first half position, we will, after the first part of the year, will go back to initial conditions.

The next question is a follow-up question by Stefano Gamberini with Equita.

Now, I have a couple of clarifications to ask. The first, APL. Mr. Piuri, you underlined that light-duty traffic, minus 29% versus 2019, whereas MISE, you are back to 2019 levels. What do you expect in the next few months? And then can you give us an update about investments? Regione Lombardia wanted, if I'm not wrong, to put an end to certain investments to -- or want to conclude that investments for the update of infrastructure within 2026, the year of the Olympic Games. And then MISE, can you help me understand the provisions that we have made there for greater maintenance works? What are they? In your investment plan, you have EUR 350 million. Are they confirmed from now to the end of the period? And then MISE again, what is the invested capital on which you are -- recognize the return by the regulator? This is the system, you used them. And then if you can, if you have the data available for Trenord, what is the invested capital that you are taking into account?

I'll ask Valentina and Valeria to supplement my answers. Now data, as to the first question, data tell us that MISE and APL are growing. Now MISE's growth, 20% growth of light-duty traffic. APL is even above 25% growth. I do not have now visibility of specific studies in this moment, but I can say that APL starts from a more limited traffic volume than MISE, and the better results of APL is due to this. On the one hand, you have recovery of traffic, and then you have a new motorway which is capturing new customers. But this is the answer that I can give you in this moment about this item, whether Valentina or Valeria can answer your 2 other questions about investments. Now when it comes to the main CapEx connected to Olympic Games, as far as I'm concerned, we are in line with expectations. Now, there are 2 main interventions here that are connected to the Olympic Games in here. As far as I know, we are in line with the plan. Moreover, we are -- on the basis of the experience that we have with Ferrovie Nord and Trenord. And based on the experience that we have on Hydrogen and Hydrogen Valley in the [ Balkan Money Club Valley ], now with this, we are in line with having service stations fueled with hydrogen, 2 or 3 on the ring road and 2 on the Milano Geneva motorways. Now as far as I'm concerned, and about investments on -- traditional investments connected to the Olympic Games, we are basically in line with the plan.

Now I was not referring to MISE, I was referring to APL. Now as far as APL, there is a project, which is related to funding or financing activities which are related to the contractor, but there have been no changes. Now I was reading in the press that everything has been not perceiving. Everything is done still, because there is a litigation in -- ongoing. Now, everything is connected to the completion of the contract with the contractor of the works, which is still being finalized. There's no litigation. This is just because the contractor is being finalized. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is what has to be completed, okay?

I do apologize. I did not understand that the question, says Mr. Piuri. Now we are speaking of a contractor, which is a very complex and which has to be developed within a context that we have already discussed. It's not a matter of a litigation, but it's a matter of finalizing the contract. A piece of information that perhaps can help you understand what's going on, is that those who are working, planning and so what allows Pedemontana to start with the works. Meaning, the Milano Serravalle Engineering Company is working hard, and Pedemontana has to make all of the necessary steps. And here, we are speaking of a couple of months of delays, but the plan is confirmed. Now lastly, on the invested capital, I don't know whether my colleagues have recovered the data. As to the [ rub ] of MISE, then we will supply you with more precise data. EUR 350 million, EUR 400 million, so this is the [ rub deal ]. We are looking at here, again, there are no changes versus the past. Now, this is the only [ rub ] which is being presented, so we have no doubt about this.

[Operator Instructions] Ladies and gentlemen, at the moment, we have no questions from the conference call.

Well, thank you very much for attending this conference call. We are, however, available should you have any other requests of clarification. And if not, we shall -- you'll hear from us during the November conference call, which is scheduled for the 11th of November. Thank you very much. Thank you and good evening. [Statements in English on this transcript were spoken by an interpreter present on the live call.]