Fortitude Gold Corporation (FTCO) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, and welcome to the Fortitude Gold 2023 Year-End Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Please note, this conference is being recorded. I will now turn the conference over to your host, Jason Reid, CEO and President of Fortitude Gold. You may begin.

Great. Thank you. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining Fortitude Goldcorp's 2023 Year-end Conference Call. Following my comments and associated presentation for those who joined online, we will have a brief question-and-answer period. Joining me on the call today for the Q&A portion will be Mr. John Labate, our Chief Financial Officer. Let me remind everyone that certain statements made on this call are not historical facts and are considered forward-looking statements. These statements are subject to numerous risks and uncertainties as described in our annual report on our Form 10-K and other SEC filings which could cause our actual results to differ materially from those expressed in or implied by our comments. Forward-looking statements in the earnings release that we issued yesterday day, along with the comments on this call, are made only as of today, February 28, 2024, and we undertake no obligation to publicly update any of these forward-looking statements as actual events unfold. You can find a reconciliation of non-GAAP financial measures referred to in our remarks in our Form 10-K filed with the SEC for the year ended December 31, 2023. In 2023 and for our third consecutive year, we met our annual production outlook. Year-end results included net income of $17 million or $0.71 per share, $73.1 million net sales, 37,996 gold ounces produced, $12.5 million paid to shareholders and cash dividends, $41.2 million mine gross profit, $23 million in cash from operating activities, $656 all-in sustaining cash cost and $17.2 million exploration expenditures, a 49% increase over 2022. We achieved all of this while growing our cash balance by over $3 million to a near record cash position of $48.7 million. These results demonstrate 2023 was another great year. Operationally, we estimate 51,000 recoverable gold ounces on the heap leach pad at year-end 2023. We continue to mine and stack lower-grade Civit Cat portion of the Isabella Pearl deposit on the heap while we await approval to mine the remaining higher-grade oxide and oxide transitional gold ore deep in the Pearl Zone. Over 95% of the heap leach pads side slopes have yet to be leached as well as the pad access area on the north end of the heap with the road and conveyors access the pad. These unleached areas are targeted to be brought into the leaching cell rotation in 2024. Obviously, the rest of the pad will continue to be leached again several times via rotational leaching as part of the normal course heap leach operation. We estimate to recover these ounces on the pad by residual leaching over the next 3 years and is a function of a heap leach as customary declining residual recovery curves. As we look to execute on our original plan to overlap mine operations and layer production while transitioning to our second mine, we remain ready to begin development of County Line upon receipt of regulatory approvals. Our plan is to mine the ore as an aggregate operation, hauling crushed ore to our nearby processing facility at Isabella Pearl. With minimal infrastructure to be built at County Line, we are optimizing the mining sequence to include early access to the highest-grade ore possible in County Line pit with a phased mining approach. We look forward to being able to add additional new gold ounces from County Line to our Isabella Pearl heap leach pad for operational longevity. A record exploration budget was deployed in 2023, which focused on County Line, Golden Mile, the Isabella Pearl trend's Scarlet North area and East Camp Douglas. All these properties returned high-grade gold intercepts reflected in the numerous press releases issued throughout the year. In addition to County Line and Golden Mile, Scarlet is building a critical mass where we are looking at optionality to bring this area into our existing Isabella Pearl mine plan boundary to more efficiently explore it and quantify an initial resource. With continued exploration success, we see the potential of Scarlet being the next mineable resource along our Isabella Pearl trend. With high-grade surface and near surface gold intercepts just 700 meters from our existing process facility and the low hurdle rate of having only to justify mining and a short haul distance for processing may provide additional future ore feed optionality and longevity. Early in 2024, we announced the acquisition of 2 additional gold properties along the Walker Lane Mineral Belt. The Dauntless and Intrepid properties, both fit nicely into our portfolio of now 8 Nevada properties, all with surface and near surface high-grade gold. For an update on the Pearl Deep permit, we continue to be in regular contact with the BLM. And 2 weeks ago, we were given the strongest indication yet that the permit could drop in at any time. As soon as we are granted regulatory approval, we plan to mine the pearl deep and blend that high-grade ore with a lower-grade Civit Cat ore currently being stacked on the pad. The BLM is the agency primarily overseeing this Pearl Deep permit modification. Over the course of this federal administration's tenure, we have witnessed firsthand what appears to be an understaffing of their BLM. And in my opinion, it's hard working employees appear overworked as some individuals are having to fill 2 separate job titles. While this administration readily spins billions and billions of dollars, including sending billions of dollars to other countries overseas, it unfortunately appears to be content to leave its BLM under staffed. It has been our experience that during the previous administration, the permit process was more efficient, even moving toward attempting to fast track the permitting processes. The exact opposite has been our experience thus far with this administration, which seems to be shared, a shared experience with many other peer mining companies with operations in the U.S. While the exact timing of the BLM's permit is out of our hand, we are thinking outside the box. We have approached the Carson City BLM as some other mining companies have done in their districts offering to help fund additional Nevada BLM staff positions. We have received the BLM's memorandum of understanding in this regard. Their MOUs have been vetted by their lawyers and used in other districts like Battle Mountain and Winnemucca. The MOU keeps everything in this regard at an arm's link transaction. If the Carson City BLM agrees, this could add to the local BLM team with a goal to alleviate some of their workload and permitting pressure. We are optimistic that BLM will add to their team, either on our company's dime through the MOU through additional federal funding or ideally both. Our ability to execute our business plan is directly tied to our ability to acquire the needed permits in a timely manner. Given the most recent BLM feedback 2 weeks ago, I optimistically expect the Pearl Deep permit any day. Having said that, I would have thought by January or now by the end of February, it would have dropped in. And while we are seeing advancements on the county line permit recently, I had thought it too would have advanced further and faster by now. The most recent feedback, which included a complement on our County Line plan of operation submission document continues to provide us with a belief we will receive the permit subject to the NEPA process timing as well as we close in on the final phase of the County Line permit review and approval. In addition, we also have another important permanent process with the BLM for our Golden Mile project. We plan to construct and operate an open pit heap leach operation to Golden Mile where we can truck loaded carbon to our Isabella Pearl processing facility for final stripping in dore production. Due to this feedback from the BLM 2 weeks ago, where we hear things are moving forward, yet we still don't have permits in hand and with the unpredictability of permit timing, which is out of our control. We have chosen not to forecast the production outlook for 2024 until we have some of these key permits in hand. Of course, we will still be producing gold and generating cash flow but providing an outlook without clarity on a few key permits would be unwise as specialty County line, which is essential to layering our second mine production over our ongoing first mine production, which has always been contemplated as the plan to hold the production profile. In addition, we need our Pearl Deep permit in hand, not just hearing it's getting close, and we need to get a sense for County Line construction timing before we can forecast an annual outlook. Until then, we continue to produce gold from the approximate 51,000 gold ounces on the heap leach pad at year-end 2023, along with gold ounces being mined and stacked from Civit Cat portions and the Isabella Pearl deep when we get the permits. As we await key permits, looking forward into 2024, we expect to continue our investments in exploration and development activities across our exciting portfolio of 100%-owned Nevada properties with a very strong treasury and substantial capital already deployed acquiring equipment for County Line and Golden Mile, we target to develop both new mines with cash while avoiding shareholder dilution. We also remain committed to the shareholder dividend. Having planned for any accumulated a near-record cash treasury having no debt and continued cash flow coming in from operations, we are in a very strong position from which to span the unknown permit timing bridge as we [indiscernible] second mine. With that, I would like to thank everyone for their time today on this conference call. And operator, if you can please open up the lines for any Q&A.

[Operator Instructions].

Well, we don't see any live questions. We do have some e-mail questions. I'll start with. The first is from Ray Leeb, what is the grade of the Civit Cat deposit? And when will it exhaust? There's multiple points in this, so I'll start there. The Civit Cat is part of the Isabella Pearl deposit. But that area that you're referencing in our initial resource is about 0.5 grams. Now having said that, that was done on a -- it's in more or less a Box Canyon. So we are limited on where we could drill. That was what our drilling indicated. Now since then, we've gone in and mined down Isabella and the Pearl, which those benches have given us additional areas from which to drill. We did go in and drill a couple of holes for mine planning, and we hit a 3-gram pocket higher up outside of the resource. So I'm not saying that to allude that this is going to be a 3 gram. I'm giving you some color in Civit Cat in that we had some limited drilling in the area to come up with a small resource for that portion of the Isabella Pearl. But we do know there's mineral outside of it. We will not know the final grade until we mine it. But at this point, around 0.5 is what I would estimate. Again, we did hit that higher grade pocket, but we'll just have to see because that was outside of the resource. That pocket will be mined and put on the heap. All right. Your second part of the question is how many benches are there currently in the IP pit? That's a function of how far the oxide and transitional oxide go down. There are tens of thousands of ounces below us, that we know this mineral continues on as it turns into strictly sulfide, which we can't process. But we also know in the bottom of the pit is oxide yet to be mined. And we -- as soon as we get our permit, we'll go mining. But what we do not know and nor will we know until we actually mine it is how much of the transitional ore can we bring in to production. And we obviously, we'll have a better data set when we go in and do blast hole drilling on a 3x3 grid as opposed to exploratory resource drill distances, which can be 25, 50 meters. So that will give us a better indication to assay this on a tighter grid spacing to see what we can put on the heap and you do a battery test including pH, et cetera. So we don't know. We expect to go down at least 4 benches. But if that transitional ore is amicable to leaching will go down more than that. Now obviously, we will be tied to the depth that they allow us to go, but we're going to see -- we know there's more ounces. We're going to get them as soon as we get the permit, okay? And then your next part is how long will it take for regulatory approval to deliver ore to the Isabella Pearl leach pad from County Line, okay? County Line is an old, small historic open pit. There's 2 small pits. We know they left a lot of high grade in the bottom of the pit because it's 3 to 5 grams, we can sample it. We've done our exploration drilling, and we've identified additional ore, so we're going to make the main pit larger. There's also the smaller East pit that we need to do a lot of exploration on and continue to do so, but there's mineral there as well. So as far as accessing ore we are working to optimize the mine plan to get into the bottom of the pit right away and access some of the highest grades early on. We can obviously access the East pit, which is lower grade, but we can access some old stockpiles there. So we will be able to, I believe, hit the ground running because we're not having to do a bunch of overburden removal to get ore immediately. The biggest thing is just getting the permit. We're ready to go. We've been chomping at the bit. And as soon as we get that we'll be putting gold ore on the heap very soon. Okay. And then this another question by [ Ray Liev. ] So will you send press releases when you receive regulatory approvals for mine construction in Isabella Pearl. Yes, obviously, County Line. Yes. Likely Isabella Pearl Deep, yes. So do you expect to maintain the dividend at current level? Yes, we do. I don't have a crystal ball, but like I mentioned, in my remarks. We are in one of the strongest positions we've ever been in as a company. To weather the unknown gap of permitting bridge. And yes, if we can do it, we will. We're highly motivated to. Obviously, as we always state, the dividends they're not a guarantee, but I think our past dividend consistency and our historic commitment with our previous company shows we're very committed to pay dividend, and we are still here. You expect to maintain last year's level of drilling. That would be great if we could. But obviously, if we're not getting these permits, we are going to conserve cash. So we may dial back. We had a record exploration year in which -- we went into the new areas, found a lot of exciting areas of mineralization that we need to go develop into a resource. Just because you go out and drill and you have good indication, that you have a potential deposit, you have to do a lot of work and a lot more drilling to pull into a resource. It takes time. But the most important thing is, did you find those locations from which to go create resources. And the answer, in my opinion, is absolutely, yes. I think just a review of our press releases show whether it's Golden Mile, whether it's Scarlet, East Camp Douglas. We hit great areas over East Camp Douglas. That's what you need if you're going to ultimately develop a resource. So our goal this year is to try to add to our resource. And I think we have the areas to do it. But will we hit a record this year? Probably not as far as drilling. And then another write in, Craig Hooper. In the case of permits -- in the case, permits are continuously delayed, how much more ore is currently available in Pearl? How long can you continue normal operations? Are you considering any other options? I think I've kind of addressed some of these. Obviously, going back to my comments going Pearl Deep, we don't know how many ounces are in that transitional. We really are going to have to assay it with the blast holes to check the pH to make sure it can go on the pad. We might have more, we might have less. We just don't know. We're just -- but -- on balance, we would have expected to stop mining this year everywhere, assuming we get our permits at Pearl, unless we go deep and there's more transitional ore, but we just won't know -- having said that, we have a lot of ounces on the pad. We're going to be generating cash flow for years to come even if we didn't put another ounce on the pad, but we are putting more ounces. And then obviously, when county line drops in, we're going to put a lot more ounces. So we're going to be here, in my opinion, a long time. We have an excellent portfolio of properties and a lot of optionality. This also brings up Scarlet. Scarlet to me is the dark horse here that's developing, and I don't think enough people are focused on Scarlet. I think they will be over time. But Scarlet is just 700 meters away. It has surface gold and great intercepts already. Now we're doing the 5-acre BLM dance, 5-acre permitting NOI notice of intent and that really restricts us on where we can drill. If we had unfettered drilling access at Scarlet, I think we could develop a resource far faster. And so as I mentioned in my comments, we hope to pull Scarlet area into the current mine plans boundary. And once we do that, that will open up a lot more land from which to drill and so we don't have to do the 5-acre dance where we can only disturb 5 acres and then we drill and then we have to go rehabilitate it before we get another 5 acres. That takes some time, but alone the time to get the NOI permit. Whereas if we can bring it into the mine plan, we'll have unfettered access to drill a larger portion, and I believe we can really add to Scarlet. Now given the challenges all mining companies are seeing with permitting, a pretty solid chance of being able to add near-term production would be to pull this into the existing mine plan where we're not permitting anything but another pit. So there's a lot of positives there. But we have a lot of optionality, and I think that optionality will pay off. Okay. Operator, I know there are several more write-ins, but do we have anybody on the line? So we don't have them hold too long.

Yes, we've got 3 questions in. The first one is coming from Mark Smith, who's a private investor.

Jason, good to speak to you. Of course, I've been with -- I've been with you for quite a long while. I have kind of a hard question that I've never asked you, but I've always wondered and that is this. We are 2 months into the first time ever gold has been above $2,000 for the whole of the quarter so far. Generally then, what -- how are the ounces that are reporting coming in generally and that would be the first part of my question.

Okay. Wait a second. You said we're currently 2 months into -- you're talking about this year with gold price being above $2,000?

Yes, correct. And with this in the current situation the company is, I'm just wondering what your general feel is for how that gold stream is going from the pad as it is. You've got 2 months already, and I assume that you batch process your dore. I was just wondering how does it look for this current quarter so far you got?

Yes. Look, I'm hesitant to speak into an individual quarter. I've never done that in any -- well, no. I mean that gets a little tricky, right, where you're taking a snapshot I will answer your question this way, that it is clear that we expected to be mining that high-grade deep in the Pearl. Now we all know until we get that permit, we can't. And so we're mining Civit Cat, which, as I just referenced, probably closer to 0.5. So we are putting less grade on, but we also have quite a 50,000 ounces. Now gets a little complicated in as much as when you initially leach yourself, you get a big charge out of that. But you have to go back and leach it and leach it and leach it over time, and it takes years to ultimately get that, and there's a declining recovery curve there in lies the difficulty of forecasting. That's why I'm not going to forecast. It's much easier to forecast when you're putting new ore on the pad, but I guess, coming back to the heart of your question, we're going to experience a lower grade until we can put higher grade back on. So and that ultimately comes back to permitting. As I mentioned in my comments, the previous administrations permitting was far superior than the current administration and let me just give you just a sense for our world. The previous administration's notice of intent to explore took 2 to 3 weeks to receive that notice of intent and to then go -- be able to go drill. This is just drilling. Our most recent Notice of Intent in County Line with the current administration took 3 months. That should give everybody a sense of the challenges, and it's hard to forecast when the previous administration would allow it's BLM to push things in 3 weeks, and this one is 3 months. That's just on drilling. So as I step back and I look at my peers who are everybody's waiting on permits. This is something I've mentioned on previous conference calls. This is something I actually referred to in my remarks at the Denver Gold Group where the mediator said you're not alone in permit waiting. It matters how you vote so I'm going to just diverge here. You asked me a question I've never been asked. I'm going to make some comments I've never made before. And that is -- if you are going to vote for this administration, I'm not sure why you're going to vote in any mining company because you're shooting yourself in the foot. It matters. It makes a difference. So we get tons of inbound calls, why haven't you got your permits and pretty aggressive people all upset on these permits. I want to ask them who do you vote for? Because I have very little sympathy that you're all upset with me yet, I can't get an exploration drill permit NOI for 3 months where the previous administration was 3 weeks, it makes a difference. So had we been in the previous administration where we got our permits and we were able to execute our game plan, we did, and we succeeded in 3 years, reaching our goals and targets. Now this new administration makes anything more challenging. So had we been under the previous administration, we would have gotten our Pearl Deep, we would have gotten our County Line. None of us would have been having this conversation. So that's my little soapbox, I guess, but it matters. It really does. And I guess I scratch my head going, if you're not voting for -- if you're voting for this administration, you shouldn't be investing in resources because you're voting against your own interest.

Yes. To be clear, I am not upset with you. You've proven time again, your abilities, your planning capabilities and your execution. No question about that. One other quick question. Anything on grid power?

Oh my goodness. There's another bureaucratic issue. We should have been hooked to the grid power years ago. And it just -- I think it's just another bureaucratic situation where we can only push so hard, and then we're at the whim and the regulators that decide this. So I think we'll ultimately get attached to the grid power. It would be nice to be attached to the grid power. We'd save money. But I'm no longer even guessing on timing because it's kind of like waiting on our permits. We hear positive things, but then it never drops in. So when you hear positive things, you think, okay, well, let's plan, let's plan. But then you just hear another positive thing, but it doesn't drop in. So yes, when the power line drops in great, but I am no longer focused on the power line. I mean we obviously have everything in the queue, and we're waiting on them. But it's just yet another touch point that -- it matters how you vote.

Once we get the permits, we'll just have to be happy with $600, $700, $800 all-in sustaining. That's it.

Yes. Yes, it is what it is. Look, we can only focus on what we can control. And we've set ourselves up for a lot of optionality to weather this. But if this existing -- if the current administration gets voted in, again, it's going to be a very tough 4 more years. I'll tell you that right now.

All right. Fair enough.

Your next question is coming from Harvey [ Bolen ] who's a private investor.

Harvey, long time, no speak. How are you?

Yes, indeed. I'm doing well. I have a question about the leach pad inventory entry on the balance sheet you said in the -- in your report and also in the PR that there's 51,000 ounces on the leach pad. So I'm assuming that the leach pad inventory item [ $30,533 million ] relates to the 51,000. I'm curious about the formula to arrive at that [ $30,533 million ].

Okay. First of all, there's a lot more ounces than the 51 on the pad. But you have to back out the recovery. So that's why we say 51,000 recoverable ounces. So I want to make that clear. But ask me your question again, so I'm understanding it.

If there are 51,000 recoverable ounces, I assume that's an asset that's on the balance sheet.

Yes, but you don't -- you put it as -- yes, let me interrupt you a quick on that. You mark it that cost to mine it, you don't mark it as value as if you sold it. Does that help?

So how -- what is the formula for translating the number of ounces to the item that I see on the balance sheet, [ $30,533 million ].

Yes, I'm going to have Johnson here with me. He's going to respond to you on this.

Yes, Harvey, it's John. Good question. This was basically management's estimate of what would be leached of those 51,000 ounce over the next 3 years. And that really is the long and short of it. We have not done that type of reclassification of any inventories to noncurrent in the past, because the forecast production was always a very high percentage of the ounces on the pad between 80% and 100%. Now that we're dealing with residual leaching of what's on the pad, and that constitutes the majority of what our production will be in the future, we determined it appropriate to go ahead and reclass a portion of those inventories to noncurrent. And Jason is correct that those inventories are carried at cost, not at market value. And our cost on the pad as of the end of the year was in the $900-plus per ounce, including noncash costs. And just to put it in perspective, that 51,000 ounces is $100 million of sales value. So that's a lot of revenues that are going to be coming off in the next 3 years.

Yes, exactly. That's why I was confused. So in addition to the leach pad inventories item, there's another inventory item on the balance sheet. What's that?

There are some stockpiles remaining, mostly low-grade stockpiles. That's another $3 million to $4 million.

And your next question is coming from David Rothschild. He's also a private investor.

First of all, I got in a little late on the call, so if you covered a couple of these things, I do apologize. In your earnings release yesterday, everything for year-end, did you have the fourth quarter earnings per share versus last year's earnings per share. Everything was for a year-to-date on the report that I saw?

Yes. I don't believe we broke out the fourth quarter.

Yes. We don't report the fourth quarter -- but for the fourth quarter of this year, we had earnings of about $0.06 per share.

Versus what last year?

I don't have that right at hand.

I don't know if you guys saw, but there was an article that was negative to you guys on Seeking Alpha. Did you see that?

I'm aware of it, but yes, go ahead. I'm always skeptical of somebody who writes under -- they won't write under their own name. There's plenty of people out there that will put their name on what their opinions are. But when somebody has an animal after their name, it is what it is. As well as what they're willing to write about under. But go ahead.

One of the points the guy was making was that when you do get these permits, the production on the new mines isn't going to be anywhere near on what you've been producing? And part of it's gist was, well, when they start producing, it's going to be a lot lower rate and the dividend won't be sustainable. Just I'd like to get your comment on that.

Yes. Look, I'll speak to just what's always been the case, not somebody who anonymously writes the hit piece on us. we've all known that the Isabella Pearl is an absolutely exceptional deposit at multiple grams. Most -- all mining companies in the world would love to have what we have there. Now most mines in Nevada chase 0.5 grams, okay? That's most mines, open pit mines, and they continue to do so. County Line, which is our next one is 1 gram. So it is an exceptional deposit above the norm as well. Is it as good as Isabella? No. And we've all known that from day 1. But it's a great absolutely. 1 gram gold open pit deposit is awesome. So we're going to generate a lot of cash flow off of that. We have one of the tightest capital structures as a producer in the space. Our dividend right now cost us $12 million a year. There's a really solid chance we hold that dividend. We are motivated. This company is spun out and created 2 pay dividends. So sure, people whether it's somebody who wants to do it anonymously and not have the guts to put their own name on their mud they want to spew or people like yourself, David, that will call in and use their real name, which I respect. Sure. Everybody has their own opinion on it. But look, as long as permits drop in, we have demonstrated we can execute on our game plan and our business plan, and I believe we will continue to do so. I will say this that, that same individual that won't use their own name that hides behind that has hit us with several other hit pieces that he or she was dramatically wrong on. So again, be careful what you read, whether it's pro or con, do your own research. And yes, that's where I -- that's my comment on that.

Okay. I always appreciate you guys have always been approachable by your investors. Have you guys or the Board consider that these prices are going in and buying back some stock at all?

Hang on a second. John had something to say.

David you had asked about the comparable fourth quarter in 2022, and that was $0.16 a share. And again, that was based on a considerably higher sales volume in 2022 in the fourth quarter than we recognized this year.

Okay. Thanks, John. Okay. Your question, David, was? Are we you considered buying back a few shares...

Everything considered buying back a few shares as to retire on?

It's possible. It's possible. We'll just see. That's a double. Everybody has their own take on that. And what I mean by that is at a previous company, we bought back shares, and I couldn't believe the amount of people that came back and said, you should never do that, you should just pay us more dividends. I mean you can never make everybody happy. We never try. We're going to do what we think is best for the business and its longevity but it does, David, get very attractive but looking at the potential to buy more shares and retire them. I did make this mistake previously when we bought back shares, they didn't retire them. So then they floated and they had to mark-to-market those shares. And so if we bought them back, I would never do that again, I would buy them back and retire them immediately. But is it possible, yes.

Okay. I prefer the dividends. But I mean, obviously, these are 10% yield is a good yield for gold mining stock. I guess the final question is, are there other nearby operating mines that you guys could look at acquiring or have you considered that are already operating that maybe could buy off and be into production right away with?

Yes. There's not in our Walker Lane area. There used to be a couple that are no longer around. There's one nearby that they're trying to get up and running, but that particular property, I won't mention it by name and throw it under the bus, but it's broken everybody's pick who's ever tried to touch it, and we're not going to touch it because I think it break our pick too. So that's not an option for us. we're just going to keep our nose to the grindstone. We have an excellent property portfolio. We have excellent optionality. And our exploration program last year really paid off. I mean to find Scarlet North they think -- all the mineral we're hitting up at East Camp Douglas. We're looking at how soon can we put a resource on probably 2 areas up there. So things take time. This industry takes time, but that great exploration year we had really set us in a good position, in my opinion, to add to resources and longevity. Okay. I'm going to go back to a couple of the written questions. That was already answered. All right. Why -- this is from James Heiman, why not release your projections for 2024 based on not receiving any more permits in the BLM then if and when permits are issued, issue an update. With good news. Here's why, James, and that's a good question. I'm going to use my world view example of what we just experienced. We just nailed our production for the year. We came in mid-range. And everybody's impression is that we missed -- we somehow missed our production. That's all I hear. You were less. You were less. No, we were not less. We weren't even on the low end. And yet the immediate knee-jerk reaction is that you guys missed your production. We won 100% did not miss our production. So when the world view of investors when you put out an outlook and you actually hit the midrange that they miss when we're going and looking at permits that we need to then add County Line add production and forecast, can you imagine if we forecasted there's a high probability we would miss. And even if we made it, we're going to get accused of missing, like the case, it just was. I mean, we had a great year. 2023 was an awesome year. Hitting mid-range production should be -- it is positive, but yet shareholders see it as a negative. So with that, of course, we're not going to do an outlook. We're going to continue to make money. We're going to continue to pay the dividend, and we're going to continue to explore and why we wait. Now at some point, and that point, if this administration gets in another four years, we may not see another permit. I don't know. But this administration, the first day in office, he stopped for 90 days plus all permits, whether it was all resource permits, whether it's trees -- cutting down trees, whether it's coal, whether it's oil and gas or mining, that was a shot across the bow, they're unfriendly, and they've done nothing but prove it since. So I'm not going to give a forecast. I'm just -- we're not. So I understand that you say, why won't you just do that and update it. No, we hit our production goals and still take a lot of pushback. But thanks for the question. Okay. Are there any more live questions? There's a lot of write-in ones, but we're getting long on time here.

Sure. We've got 1 other question come in. If you'd like me to put that up for you? It's from John Bair, who is with Ascend Wealth Advisors. John, your line is live.

I'm doing fine. Given -- okay, so we know that you have these issues with the permitting. I'm going to assume that, that goes along, it happens, whether it happens next week or next month, my question is you've had very encouraging exploration results at East Camp Douglas. And as you know from previous conversations that we've had, that has always been, in my mind, a tremendous potential asset and could be really a game changer. So the question really boils down to you're going to have to focus on bringing East Camp or Golden Mile and County Line into production, given or hoping that you get the permits for that. How much further exploration work, do you think you feel that you need to do based on the geological modeling that you've are developing as you get your drill results. How much longer do you think you were much more exploration work do you think you need to be able to develop or come out with a good resource estimate that would then trigger further activity in evaluating a mine plan and pursuing unfortunately permits again. Could you address that?

No, absolutely, John. It's a great question. Look, East Camp is our home run potential. And for that exploration year 2023, we knocked that out of the park. I mean what results. Did we just hit the result recently, there was an ounce -- but at what's awesome is the width of high grade. So John, it's a great question because it also speaks to our unique positioning in this mining space. If we were the normal mining company. We would take 10 -- 5, 10 years probably to be able to move forward with that. Or if we didn't have facilities that were closed by with this hub-and-spoke approach, so you wouldn't have the ability to say what I'm going to say in my answer. And that is, we, like I mentioned, at Scarlet, only have to justify trucking and hauling or to hit the hurdle rate for Scarlet to become something. The same holds true for East Camp. If we're looking at this as what's the minimum number of ounces we need to justify production decision because it would be great at that high of a grade, we're -- and it obviously depends on what the ultimate -- or the initial resource or the second resource or whatever threshold that takes. But it would be great to haul that down the road to our processing facility. Because then you're not permitting another heap leach. You're not permitting another process. You're not permitting another ADR. You're leveraging what we already permitted, again, under the previous administration. So hopefully, with East Camp, we're already running some metallurgical tests. We're looking at this going, can it be heap leached. If we can check all these boxes the hurdle rate to make a development decision is much lower than if we just came in here from scratch, we didn't have nearby facilities and we looked at this and go, okay, wow, that hurdle rate needs to justify tens and tens of millions of dollars of processing plants of permit timing of all these things. So I think we're in a really unique position. This hub and spoke worked well for us in Mexico. It's working well here. It lowers that hurdle rate. It gives us better optionality. It gives us an opportunity like Scarlet, where all we're going to be looking at is what's the minimum amount we need to mine and truck, same thing at East Camp. I can't give you the amount the -- how many ounces that would be because I don't know yet. But we -- that's the direction we're going, John. And that is putting ourselves in the position to move quicker than most anybody could in the industry that doesn't have the same hub-and-spoke approach. So we're doing a similar thing, trying to do a similar thing at Golden Mile. Having said that, a Golden Mile is a little bit different because -- we do -- it's far enough the way we do. In the metallurgy search, we do have to take that to a carbon. We're going to take it to a carbon and truck the carbon. So we'll just have to see. But good question, and that's how we're looking at the world is what's the minimum amount.

Right. And what I was really kind of driving at is, I mean, I would consider 2024 is really a focus on trying to get County Line, Golden Mile up and running, again, assuming and hoping a fairly quick resolution on the permitting and focusing your efforts on that as well as doing some exploratory drilling elsewhere. But are we -- would you consider it likely or is it reasonable to think that perhaps within a couple of year, 2-year, 3-year time frame, given what you've seen thus far and if your geologic modeling does tend to play out with additional exploration activity at East Camp that, that could become an operational mindset in 2 to 3 years, 3 years, let's say.

Possibly but -- possibly, but probably not under this administration permitting. So yes. I mean I can't imagine, yes.

We have no control over that at this point. And I'm in agreement with you on the hold up on and all that kind of stuff. So we'll leave it.

We are not the only mining company waiting. I'm not going to use their name, but they're a larger mining company in Nevada and they've been waiting a substantial amount of time for a modification to their existing operation. That shouldn't be taken place. But it is what it is.

Right. One last quick comment and that is simply previous online call in I would prefer -- I know a lot of shareholders would love to have higher dividends and all that. But from my standpoint, I would rather see you get these mines online rather than buying shares back. I just think if you're looking longer term on it getting these mines in production and developing some of the very exciting properties that you appear to have that to me is where you ought to focus your cash efforts. So that's all I'll say on that.

No, I appreciate that. Yes, John everybody has their own opinion on that, right?

Yes. No, I like the dividend.

I do too. Everybody has their own opinion. I have a couple of shareholders e-mail me on a regular basis. When are you going to buy back, hey, this company buys back and all this, and yet I have others saying, don't buy back. I love all the feedback, but ultimately, we are going to do what we believe is best for the company. We're not going to please everybody, but by the same token it's always how we've operated and we'll continue to operate this way. But I appreciate the feedback on that.

If you had 4 mines on production, that would be a different story perhaps. But if you had 4 mines on production, the share price probably wouldn't be where it's at, right?

Yes, it's going say 4 mines [indiscernible] production to be different right? I know there's a lot of other questions coming in, just reach out to us I'm going to get to one last written in question, but there's a lot more after that. So I apologize if I didn't get to your question, but this conference call is going pretty long. You can reach out to us directly. Doug Hultgren asked, can you clarify if this is a personal Trump endorsement or corporate endorsement. It's neither. It's neither done. It's -- all I'm saying is what are we -- what are we experienced and what we experienced on their previous administration, forget about the name behind that. What we experienced is that -- past administration was actually trying to fast track permits. We got NOIs in 2 to 3 weeks. Fast forward, what is this administration, forget about names associated with it. What are we experiencing with this one? We experienced first day in office, shut across all resource producing bow saying, you get no permits. We sat on our hands waiting on permits for just drill permits. That was now fast forward, and there's not a lot of transparency on when permits are going to drop in. There's not a lot of push. All we see is under the current administration, again, forget about names, it's not about that. I'm not endorsing anybody. I'm not bashing on anybody. I'm looking at what this shareholders need to hear as it relates to us trying to acquire our permits. And when it takes 3 months to get an exploration permit, something is wrong. And that's what I'm saying. And so maybe I'm reading it wrong as far as who's doing it. But the net effect is under this one. That's what's happening. So again, I want to be clear. I am not personally endorsing. I'm not -- we're not corporate endorsing. I'm giving you the facts on what we see as it relates to permitting. So Don, hopefully, that answers your question. Okay. Well, again, thank you, everybody, for the questions. There's a lot more, but we're getting long on time. And feel free to reach out to Greg or myself. And we'll go from there. And also be prepared to answer the question when you call and ask us, one, who do you vote for, because it makes a difference. All right. Thanks, everybody. We'll talk to you later.

Thank you very much. This does conclude today's conference. You may now disconnect your phone lines, and have a wonderful day. Thank you for your participation.