Forvia SE (FRVIA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, and welcome to our 2021 results meeting. We will start with some comments about why we believe that 2021 was a foundational year. Michel Favre will present the financial data. I will be back with the stand-alone guidance. And finally, I will give you a first hint about FORVIA's strategic goals. Let us start with 2021 as a foundational year for Faurecia. I think 2 events -- 2 main events have been founding Faurecia. The first one is the successful spin-off from our historical shareholder, PSA/Stellantis. This had 2 main and significant changes. The first one is the free float with in excess of 90% and the inclusion of Faurecia in the CAC Next 20. The other one is related to our strategic autonomy, which has significantly increased and which [ might ] have made possible. And the second very important item, which is the strategic and transformative acquisition of HELLA. With HELLA, we created the seventh biggest automotive supplier. We increased significantly our technology content, addressing all industry megatrends, and I will tell you a little bit more about this. Faurecia now owns a controlling stake exceeding 80% and we forecast strong earnings and cash flow accretions and value creation for all our shareholders. And all of that has conducted us to change the name FORVIA, which is perfectly on track to deliver the synergies we announced in August last year. Let me start this presentation with climate change and what it means to us. So we are -- we have convictions around that. We believe that climate change is the challenge for humanity, and we have to tackle it as quickly as possible. We are fully engaged in doing this. Let me start with Scope 1 and 2, when we intend to be CO2 equivalent neutral by 2025. We are working with major partnerships, KPMG and Schneider Electric and also ENGIE. With them, we are doing the following. We are reducing our consumption. We are self-producing electricity, green electricity, and we are buying green electricity. We also decided last year to create a new division, which is called Sustainable Materials. In fact, for the interior design, we will have to think about new materials, which might even be CO2 equivalent negative. It means that we have, on one hand, to increase the viability of these formulations, combining virgin materials with recycled materials and biosourced materials and compensating this increase of viability by a reduction of viability of our manufacturing processes. We are very much committed. We have already an product family which is proposed to our customers. And we want to grow quickly, and we have the intention to be at around 400 engineers in 2030. We also work on the design of our products and the architecture of the interior. So we are working on, for example, Seat for the Planet. It means that we are thinking about modules which are very easy to assemble. And if they are easy to assemble, they are also easy to disassemble, which will allow us to enter really in the circular economy. And all of that, of course, with reduced CO2 footprints. We accelerated our 0 emission hydrogen strategy. We started with Stellantis. We increased our portfolio now with Hyvia. We are also supplying HKMC, Hyundai. We are supplying also SAIC in China. So I think that we have increased significantly the customer footprint. And I believe that we have the biggest one. We have achieved an order intake as we proposed of over EUR 500 million in 2021, this including Symbio. And we will soon -- very soon have a new communication to make, which is good news because we have won another very significant contract in this field. Related to this order intake, which will allow us to be at EUR 500 million of sales in 2025 and our target and -- on track to achieve our target of 2030, which we confirm at EUR 3.5 billion. It's time now to invest in our footprint. So we will start in 2023 on a new plant in Allenjoie in France with a capacity of 100,000 tanks per year. And we also will start, and we will have a groundbreaking ceremony in Lyon for Symbio, a state of the art new plant. So this is working. We also see that a significant number of major OEMs are getting interested, not only interested, but launching RFQs, and we will have a significant project. When I say significant project, I'm thinking about lifetime sales which are above EUR 200 million. We have a few in front of us in 2022, which shows the dynamic and the progress hydrogen is making. By the way, we are very clear, and all the studies are converging from this point of view. It's more efficient from an economical point of view to invest in both infrastructures, BEV and hydrogen. I also would like here to underline our solid order intake, which cumulated 2019-2021 achieved EUR 75 billion. I think that this is important, because it shows the relationship we have with our customers on a global scale. This solid order intake of EUR 75 billion means for 2025 sales above EUR 24.5 billion. Here, again, this is what we announced in -- during the CMD in 2021. So we are confirming our growth. And I will be back to the growth, to the combined growth with HELLA. We won 213 awards during the past year. 2.6 billion for Faurecia Clarion Electronics. We are above what we announced being our target for 2021. This is mainly driven by the Chinese and Japanese OEMs, but also Stellantis and Renault. We also achieved EUR 6.5 billion in China in 2021, which is representing about 27% of our total order intake and again, reflecting continued strong growth potential of the Chinese market and an very effective and efficient intimacy with the Chinese OEMs. Now Michel, let us go through our financials.

Thank you, Patrick. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. So to start, to comment 2021 I can first speak of -- I will say, strong tailwind. Why? Because we face unbelievable volatility on the volumes. On top of that, volumes were comparable to the 2021's. I remind you that we lost 2 months of production in 2020. And last but not least, normally when we have low volumes, raw material prices are down. On the opposite, inflation on raw material and on other cost was very high, and it's not finished for 2022. On top of that, we face a big difficulty in the startup of a new plant in Michigan. I will come back on that. So altogether, we posted sales at EUR 15.6 billion, up 8.8% organic. Stronger performance, 650 basis points in H2 and 500 basis points in full year. But please notice that Europe, mainly North America's volumes were damaged by the semiconductor crisis. So if we exclude this geographical mix, we speak of 1,150 basis points in H2, 800 basis point outperformance for the full year, which is the reality, in fact, of our business. It is difficult with the situation. We were able to post EUR 862 million of [ that ] income, 5.5% of sales. Net cash flow, EUR 305 we have EUR 12 million coming from the Hella acquisition. So comparable is EUR 317 million. And an important thing is the ratio leverage of -- with the debt. We are down to 1.6x. You know that we have an important, I will say, target for this year, integrating Hella as the cost of acquisition is to be below 2.5. This is clearly contributing. You have in this Slide 10, the evolution, I will say, semester after semester. So what you can immediately see in H1 2020, it is a drop of, I will say, the volumes linked with the COVID, which you will see immediately is H2. H2 2021, is probably the lowest H2 that we are facing since a lot of years, very low. And clearly, between July and we said October, very high volatility, I will come back on that. So altogether, with 73 million cars produced in this world, it is a comparable figure to 2020, knowing that a normal figure is more 85 to 89. So we are still 20% below a normal year. You know that in this sector normally, we have a quick recovery. So we can clearly anticipate that volumes will come back, and will strongly come back. So we have an, I will say, an upside of 20% volumes minimum in the next years. Raw material figures are speaking by themselves. Steel prices have doubled, and you know that we are consuming steel in frames for seating and in the pollution system. The chemicals, plastics are up by 40%, 50%, 60% according to the type. And it's not finished because you see the oil prices. So as well, and we are a big consumer for interiors. So big pressure for that. And of course, our basic duty is to pass through this cost to customers. What we have indicated and what we have achieved, more than 80% of the impact has been passed through, but 20% is still unfortunately in our P&L. For the shortage, I was speaking of volatility. So you have in the range, what was the forecast at the beginning of the month, and what was the real figure. So when you see September, 122 days anticipated by customers at the end of the month, 338 days, you can divide by 12 -- by 20, sorry. You can see the number, or the equivalent number of plants closed by customers. What I can tell you is that we were losing EUR 250 million sales between the first week of September and the last week. In October, it was at EUR 200 million. Unbelievable figure, nobody has a reminder of such an impact in the past. What I can tell you is that November, December, we are much more stable. And we see the same thing in January, February with much better volumes back to, I would say, the volumes of the year before. So I don't want to say that the crisis is finished. What I can tell you is that we are speaking of improvement and, I will say, regular improvement of the situation. We have a specific difficulty with the start-up of the Highland Park plant. In fact, we are speaking of 2 plants. One is making the frames, and the second one is making the assembly of complete seats. This plant started in Q2 2021. And we have first to face a stop and go for the customer. Second, we face a big volatility of the people. So a big, I will say, turnover. And it is very difficult to stabilize the ramp-up, where you are losing a significant part of the people every week. So we have to act on the wage first, to try to. And we have to act, of course, on different, I will say, actions I will detail that now. But one significant difficulty, due to the restrictions linked with the COVID lasting until mid-October, we were unable to send people to [ help ] this plant, which is as well an unprecedented case because we have task force. We have teams able to help a plant. So our action. First, we have appointed an EVP North America to increase the autonomy of the regions and to act as early as possible. Second, since October, a lot of people, something like 30 people, experts, specialists are helping the plant for the ramp-up. We have, as I said, stabilized the workforce with adjustment on the cost, with a big use of subcontractors, to be sure that we have the people and we will not more create disturbance with our customers. And of course, we are ramping up the production according to the horizon of our customers. So we continue to stabilize. And of course, we will continue to make the right measures to, I will say, stabilize the plant. Unfortunately, extra costs, extra cost means cost of wage, extra cost means we say subcontractors; extra cost means, I will say [ caps ], last but not least, some customer penalties. So we have a cost -- an extra cost of EUR 100 million in the second half of 2021, and we are estimating that with all the measures that we are taking as a stabilization, anyway, we will have something like EUR 30 million extra cost in H1. This bridge is a classical, I will say reconciliation between last year -- 2020, sorry, and 2021. So you can see that in H2 -- it is H2, the adverse impact of the sales was estimated at EUR 657 million, with -- on the margin, the contribution -- lack of contribution, EUR 136 million. With the stop and gos of our customers, the fact that we have the people, we have unfortunately some [ collapses ] linked with this volatility. We have EUR 40 million. These are figures mainly between August and October. So next part of the raw material inflation we were not able to pass through was EUR 43 million. It is, I mentioned, as a problem of this U.S. plant. On the positive side, we continue to improve our cost base. So EUR 135 million, we have some EUR 80 million, which are more one-off. The same exercise for the full year is the same. And on the opposite, 2022, because 2020 was a very low, I will say, year. We have the outperformance. So it is why we have this EUR 1.3 billion additional sales with the EUR 359 million volume mix. Please notice the raw material full year impact, EUR 70 million, and we are at least to have the same kind of figure this year 2022. So it is a major, I will say, part of our daily management to pass through and to protect our margins [ to the rest ] at EUR 298 million of cost optimization which will help, of course, the profitability of 2021, but as well 2022. If I zoom by activity now Slide 16, Seating sales, stronger performance, accelerating now. And of course, you have to add the geographical mix. So we are speaking of, in H2, of net performance above 1,000 basis points. Operating margin was impacted, of course, by the inflation, as the main impact is definitely the Michigan plant. This is why you can see 4.7% full year margin, but above 6, excluding of course this, I hope, one-off impact. Interiors, lower, I will say, outperformance. But any way, with geographical mix, we speak of 720, a little more, I think, because Interiors is more Europe and North America. So anyway, a stronger performance. Margin was impacted by the stop and go and by the pass-through. As you know, Interiors is more consuming plastics, and our capacity to pass on plastics is lower than on steel. Anyway, I will say we will recover some, I will say, much better profitability in 2022. Clean Mobility, stronger performance, and please notice the stronger performance in Europe, helped by some gain of market share, and the fact that we have a huge position on [ hybrid cars ]. Margin at 10.5%, please take into account that this BG is subsidizing the new [ inversion ] activity. So ex hydrogen we are double digit. And I think with the low volumes we face, it's quite a performance. So a very good year, I will say, for Clean Mobility. Clarion. Now the momentum of sales has started, EUR 838 million of sales. We are targeting this year 2022, EUR 1.2 billion of sales. Operating, we were able to protect the operating margin whatever this unbelievable volatility and over cost on electronic components. And this year, we are at 0. We are, in fact, slightly positive if I exclude the IT cost to make the integration. And this year, we are targeting a mid-single-digit profitability. So it will be the year really of the breakthrough for Clarion. By regions, Europe, EUR 3.2 billion. You see what I was mentioning. I forget to mention that if you compare the volumes, production of our customers, H1, H2, it is a loss of 2 million cars, from 8.9 million cars to 6.9 million. So the [ auto competition ] was very difficult in second half. So it is why we posted this -- sorry, low margin of 2.7%, 4.2% for the full year, and I am confident that we will recover something like 6% this 2022 year. North America, on one side, like Europe, big outperformance [ imily ]. And on the other side, we have this difficulty in Michigan. So it is why you have these 2 figures, 1.3% and 4%. Same thing with the ramp-up improvement already made in Highland Park. We can target a 6% this year. Asia, strong performance on, I will say relying, starting with the outperformance, helped by all the BGs and by Clarion, Clarion is a strong contributor. Second, double-digit margin recovered. And it is including the cost of Clarion, which is a [ strategic entity ]. So very good performance in Asia, and I will say, in Asia, in all the regions of Asia. The rest of the world, if you remember, in South Africa and Brazil -- Brazil and South America, strong recovery, and where [ R E ] has a big contribution for Stellantis in [ Palembucour ] for the Jeep, where we have a very good position in interiors and very good margin. This margin was helped by a one-off of EUR 13 million, I would say [ fiscal piece ]. But anyway, we're speaking of a margin above the average of the group. And speaking of the different lines, we were able to protect the gross margin at 12%, is not our target. Our target is to 13 to 14. But anyway, altogether to recover 12% with respect to the low 10% of 2020. We were able to moderate the R&D expenses to reduce, I will say, the SG&A. Unfortunately, I have to say that bonuses reduction are playing on this line, but anyway. So due to that, we have this strong double the operating margin. Net income, a lot of one-offs, a lot of restructuring, less than 2020, but anyway, close to EUR 200 million. Some costs related to the acquisition. On one side, fees; on the other side, it is all the consultants that we have used to make this transaction. On the operating -- of the income tax, I have to be transparent. We were not activating, I will say, tax in some countries where we are losing money. We are very cautious on that. So we have probably an upside for the next year on this slide. And last but not least, you can see the line, we see the sale of ST. We have a positive sale, but compare that with the net, I would say, value, unfortunately it is a loss of EUR 26 million, [ EST ] is Europe. So we are sitting at a bad moment. And on top of that, [ AST ] was mainly the classic cars, very poor presence on the SUVs. Altogether, recurrent net income EUR 130 million. And you know that volumes are playing very quickly on this ratio. Cash, difficult year. I think my peers have already published that on the inventories, there was a big pressure. Why? Because in a time of volatility, mainly until October, very difficult to optimize inventories. So we have, at the end of October, which is more or less the same at the end of December, EUR 200 million higher inventories than expected. So this has a weight of course, on the [ weighted ] capital that we offset with some optimization. Very low level of customer overdues, some small improvement on supplier terms. Second point was the -- sorry to say that, the low level of EBITDA, we were more targeting at the beginning of the year, 2.4%, 2.5. But we were optimizing the other lines. We have a strong line of restructuring, EUR 175 million, that probably will be slightly below this year. If I can give you some, I will say, information on 2022, CapEx will be more at EUR 600 million and capitalized R&D at EUR 700 million. We want to deleverage. So it was not the case last year. And we have the dividends. We buy some shares to make our capital increase to employees. So this is a net impact for Faurecia. We have some contribution to Symbio, be some small outflow that [ DP sola ]. So altogether, we increased the debt by EUR 339 million. We will definitely reduce the debt in Faurecia loan with HELLA with some divestments. I remind you that we have minimum EUR 500 million target of divestment this year. We were very active on the financing market. We were issuing the first senior green note for a supplier. It was in the first quarter. We anticipated, if I can say that, as acquisition, and we were -- we have this bond in November 2021 in the Schuldschein in December 2021. We have made, agreed with the banks, a EUR 5.5 billion facility to make the acquisition. We have just drawn in February, 2.9, and we will refinance this 2.9 [ note ], one will be with a bank loan, EUR 500 million. Second will be with the capital injection that we want -- we would like to do in this first half, preferred with a bond issue to complete and close definitely the acquisition. You see the maturity of our debt. So we are managing more than 5 years average. The cost of our debt is below 3%. We have no major repayment before 2025, and we have a strong liquidity, but please take with this liquidity the fact that we are anticipating the payment of end of, we said, January. Last but not least, and I would like to thank the work made by the rating agencies to go with us on this acquisition. We were, I will say, securing our current credit rating, and we want to restart the [ rally ] towards an investment grade. The target is 2025. To close this financial presentation, dividends. Of course, when you are on -- with the leverage, it's not the right time to pay dividends. But anyway, we want to protect our shareholdership and we want to thank them for their support of this acquisition. So it is why we propose the same dividend as last year, EUR 1, which will be paid either in shares or in cash. It will be an option of our shareholders. And this is clearly producing the big, I will say, confidence in our cash generation and in all the projects, and we have repeated again -- as we repeat is the fact that we have fantastic synergies to achieve [ resale ]. Now I give the floor back to Patrick.

Thank you, Michel. And maybe before I start with the guidance, I have 2 remarks. The first one is related to the sales we had in Europe. I think we need to underline this again: in the second half of 2021, the production volumes in Europe were at the same level, even slightly below, than during the first half of 2020, which is an incredible figure. And this, of course, had consequences, and we were able to deal with these consequences. But we announced an outperformance of 650 basis points while we were penalized by the geographical impact by about 500 basis points. So the reality would have been 1,150 basis points. And when you look at the geographical impact on a yearly base, it was at 300 basis points. So this is significant. The second point I would like also to come back to is Highland Park. And we spoke about 2 figures which I believe are important. EUR 100 million, which is the impact of Highland Park in the second half of last year. It includes EUR 10 million of accruals we have negotiations ongoing with the customer. And it includes also what I would believe being normal for this level of plants in terms of start-up cost, which would be around EUR 20 million. Now when we speak about the EUR 30 million we are considering in H1 of this year, first I would like to tell you that the capacity is now robust and validated. So we do not have any more any issue with the volumes. And we are converging with the costs as planned. But the customer is running its volume at about 60% of the nominal capacity. And so we are in an stop-and-go process. And we cannot flex it and especially on the [ gid ] business. We know in North America in Michigan, that if we would flex, if we would reduce our headcount, we will not be able to recover them when needed. And this is why we have this issue. And finally, in the second half, and I can't tell you more about this, and you will understand why. We are considering some restructuring which will significantly improve the situation again, and we should be able to finally achieve an year at breakeven. So these are the 2 things I wanted to add to Michel's presentation. And now let us go to the guidance. We spoke about inflation. We spoke about semiconductors. We spoke about Omicron. Let me tell you what my concerns are. The first concern is inflation. I do believe that we will face an structural inflation on steel, on transportation, on energy, on wages, and we will have to deal with this. We will have to compensate that. We spoke about, last year, we were able to pass through more than 80% to our customers, but with the remaining amount of EUR 70 million. So we have to think about being able in '21 and '22 to compensate about EUR 150 million. Stop & Go, Michel said it, it's improving. It's improving, but we are still not there. And I don't believe that we will completely exit the semiconductor crisis before next year. We will see progressively improvements in volumes and these improvements might accelerate in the second half of this year. Omicron in Asia. So these are additional risks, but we need to face them, and especially Omicron in China. So far, so good. And the Chinese authorities are able or were able to deal with the situation. More than 3 billion vaccines were used, including the third shot in China so far. And the last one are the tensions we have in Europe between Russia and Ukraine, which could have an impact on the energy prices. So considering all of this, we have decided to go ahead with an assumption of 78.7 million light vehicles in 2022. This means an growth of about 7% versus past -- the past year. We were conservative in H1, prudent at least in H1, with a decrease of 2% versus H1 '21. But we have to remind ourselves that H1 was high and H2 was low. So of course, this is impacting the different percentages. And you -- we also believe that we will recover after 2023, the volumes we had -- the peak volumes we had in 2017, all -- and really in all the regions, the inventories are extremely low, and sometimes historically low. The demand, maybe I finish with this part, the demand is also very strong. So we see it everywhere. And we start also to have now an shortage of secondhand accounts. So I think that as soon as the semiconductor crisis will improve and the volumes will increase. Considering all of that, this is the guidance we are proposing. Sales between EUR 17.5 million and EUR 18 billion, an operating margin between 6% and 7%, with an second half close to the pre-COVID levels, and a net cash flow of circa EUR 500 million, this before the HELLA acquisition impact. This again is calculated on the base of the 78.7 million vehicles. This is the guidance for Asia stand-alone. We will publish with, simultaneously with our Q1 sales figures, the combined group guidance, which will happen in April 28. Now if we go to the strategic update of our acquisition. So the closing has been achieved January 31, I think in an pretty small time frame, 5 months between the go and the closure. At that time, our stake -- we -- the stake we own -- sorry, within the HELLA is above 80% and for a total value of EUR 5.4 billion. HELLA is now fully consolidated into Faurecia's account, and this starting from February 1. The family pool owns 9%, and you see here that our free float is at 76%. And the structural part is at around 24% with Peugeot 1810, 3.1%, Bpifrance 2.2%, XR 5.1% and Dongfeng 2%. Also to be noticed, our employees own 2% of the company. And this after the ease up we achieved last year. The creation of the 7 biggest supplier globally. So we haven't lost time. We have worked on an organization with 6 business groups. For the moment, we have in [ MBA ] Electronics 2 separated organization which are working closely together, Clarion Electronics and HELLA Electronics. You see lighting and life cycle solutions are part of HELLA and you have Seating, Interior and Clean Mobility being fully part of Faurecia. Three of them are based in Nanterre and 3 are based in Lippstadt. We also have worked on the global support functions. They are deployed at group, at business group, product and business divisions and also at plant levels. We are considering each plant with an P&L, and we are consolidating the different layers that way. To these 6 business groups correspond 24 differentiating product lines, which are addressing all industry megatrends. And I might only detail 2 of them, electronics with sensors and actuators, automated driving, lighting and body electronics, energy management, cockpit electronics and HMI and displays. The 2 last ones, cockpit electronics, HMI and displays are the ones coming from Clarion Electronic and getting added to the global setup. The other one is life cycle solutions with the independent aftermarket, but also with workshop solutions, including diagnostics tools and special original equipment. We spoke about the synergies, and we are at a level where we can announce an figure which is above the one we estimated in August last year with [ in ] excess of EUR 250 million. And this, with an implementation 40% in '23, P&L impact and 80% in 2024 to reach 100% in 2025. On the other side, revenue synergies with an figure between EUR 300 million and EUR 400 million, but this is an increase by 2025. It's clear, but it takes a little bit more time. And that even in 2026, we have more than EUR 100 million to be added to this figure. What is important also to mention is the growth we will have to face here. We will do this year between EUR 24 million and EUR 25 billion, and we will grow in 2025 up to EUR 33 billion. So it means that we do not need growth. We can be selective and we have to be selective, and we have to favor much more the margin and the profitability to achieve not only our targets, but to secure this growth, the challenge. The main challenge will be to attract the talents. So this is it, between EUR 24 billion and EUR 25 billion to up to EUR 33 billion sales, an EBIT margin above 8% for Faurecia stand-alone, above 8.5% for Forvia. And net cash flow of EUR 1.1 billion for Faurecia stand-alone. About 5% of sales at a level of EUR 1.75 billion for FORVIA in 2025. And a net debt-to-EBITDA ratio of 1x. I would like to tell you that we have changed our parameters for our bonus, our incentives, and we are now fully focused on the deleveraging of the company. So the main indicator -- parameter of our bonuses is related to the net debt to EBITDA ratio. This is the beginning of the story, and this is what will found our CMD -- our next CMD, which we forecast to have in September. So we will very soon announce the date for you to plan and your participation. So the first thing, and I spoke about the challenge which is related to attracting talents and [ to staff and ] our growth. We work on challenges that matter with people who matter to us. And we have 4 pillars. The first one is safe. We relentlessly enhance mobility safety inside and out. Sustainable, we frame everything through the lens of sustainability. Advanced, we design advanced and automated driving solutions to stay connected, productive and entertained while on the move. Customized, we offer solutions for customized, aesthetic and emotional experience. Combining all of that, we are a global system enabler combining hardware and software. And I think that this sentence is very important, and it's the way we want to inspire mobility. An video to introduce now our new name. [Presentation]

So to close this presentation, the main takeaways. The first one is clearly 2021, which will be remembered as a special year for us, for Faurecia and for FORVIA, with 2 major events: the spin-off first, but also the strategic and transformative acquisition of HELLA. Secondly, an difficult year where we were able to demonstrate again our resilience and our performance. The second half, and especially Q3, was a very difficult period of time. The creation in 2022 of -- for FORVIA, the seventh global automotive technology supplier, which is empowering Faurecia's and HELLA's strengths. And I think that we are committed and fully focused on delivering synergies. And you've seen that our ambition is not at the end of the figure we showed. And we are creating value, and we will continue to create value for all our stakeholders. And last comment, the growth. Growing from 24.5 -- EUR 25 billion in 2022 to EUR 33 billion in 2025 will generate new opportunities. If we are capable to contain our fixed costs, we will very much benefit and increase our competitiveness through this growth period of time. Thank you. And I think now we will open our Q&A session.

[Operator Instructions] We will now take our first question from Thomas Besson from Kepler.

It's Thomas Besson, Kepler Cheuvreux. I have 3 questions, please. First, I'd like to ask about the guidance, not only on the cash side and try to understand how conservative it is and whether you'd be able to give us an idea of the seasonality of these results. I would imagine that to some extent, H1 should probably be closer to 2021, and H2, you suggest [ could ought to ] pre-COVID. The second question would be on the relationship with automakers in general and in Stellantis, in particular. You talk about an impressive ability to transfer rising input costs. Is that going to be the same in '22? Do you think you can pass more or less, because we get very different messages from automakers and suppliers on this. And it looks like the situation is more tense than it has been in the past between the 2 groups of automakers and suppliers. In particular, Stellantis [ seems to force ] new contracts that are less favorable to you. Third and last question, really formal. Can you confirm what you're going to report for the new group? Are you going to report as for Faurecia revenues by division and by geography, and earnings by division by geography? Or is it going to be less complete than before?

So I will take the 2 last ones, and I will let you, Michel, take the first one. We intend to report as we are doing it today for Faurecia business groups and parent geographies. The relationship with customers, I told you that we passed through the inflation above [ 18 ]%. And I don't see any reason why we would not be able to achieve the same level of performance in 2022. We have contractual pass-through mechanisms. It's a little bit more difficult for plastics, for example. But on plastics, we are at about 75% of pass-through performances. Is the situation more difficult than before? We have 1 difficulty, which is related to Stop & Go. I said it. It's very difficult in the moment to flex the costs because we are afraid that considering the tensions on the labor market, it will be difficult to quickly, to timely be able to rebuild our headcounts with the time also we need for the training. And here, it's a little bit more tense. It's true, but it's not structural. We will exit this period of time certainly quickly. You spoke about some new requests proposed by some of our customers. It's not the first time that we are facing this kind of situation. We have our syndicates. We have our associations. We have many ways to act collectively. I mean the supplier base to negotiate or at least deal with these kind of requests. And I'm absolutely sure that this will happen in the case you mentioned. What is also important to notice is that seeing light at the end of the tunnel, our customers will need volumes. We are entering in a different perspective, and they will need our support to accompany them in this new growth situation. And of course, we are in the same boat. It's also in our interest to achieve this growth, but it's changing a little bit the perspective. So to answer your question, I'm not concerned about our capability to manage this new situation with our customers.

[Foreign Language]. You are perfectly right. We are targeting a strong improvement between H1 and H2 for 3 reasons. First is the volumes. In our guidance we have 37 million cars production in H1, 41 million in H2. You know that volumes are very accretive in this business. Second, the progressive pass-through on inflation. The third, unfortunately Highland Park, EUR 30 million. We'll have [ weight ] something like 40 basis points on the first half. So I fully agree with you, a margin in H1 comparable to the margin of 2021 and a margin definitely above 7% in H2.

And on the cash side, the conservative guidance?

Conservative guidance, we are at the beginning of the year. I don't speak about Ukraine, [ in fact they have costs ]. To be honest, we think that we will have a strong upside on volumes at least in H1. It is what we see today. So on this side, you can say that it is conservative.

We will now take our next question from Giulio Pescatore from Exane BNP Paribas.

I want to go back on the free cash flow point just to start with. I mean I noticed that you're factoring increased in H2 2021. So I wanted to make sure how much factoring are you assuming for 2022? Are you assuming a neutral impact or another positive effect? And then still on 2022, what are you assuming for working capital? Are you expecting some of the reversals for the EUR 200 million negative effect you saw in inventories in 2021? Is any of that included in the guidance? And then can you just confirm that you're still assuming a leverage below 2x for Forvia in 2022, by the end of the year? And then second question on Seating. I noticed that the one-off costs were slightly higher than you had anticipated. I think it was EUR 80 million, and that increased to EUR 100 million for last year and then EUR 20 million that increased to EUR 30 million in H1. I mean, can you give us any confidence that further increases will not materialize in the coming months?

I will start with the second one with Seating. No, we -- the first point, when you speak about the increase between EUR 80 million and EUR 100 million, I said it just before, we have added some accruals inside this amount, because we have negotiations ongoing. On the EUR 30 million, it's mainly related to the Stop & Gos we currently have. I said it, we are running the plant at 60% of its capacity, but with an headcount which is corresponding to even a little bit more than 100% because we are facing in North America -- and this has nothing to do with us -- an absenteeism which is around 15% per week. So it's a very difficult environment, which has a cost. And this is why we are considering more structural measures, which might be implemented in the second half. So I do not expect an increase of this amount.

[Foreign Language] Factoring, we have an increase of factoring. A part of this increase of factoring is ForEx. Because, unfortunately, we are taking as a ForEx of end of the year which was much above the ForEx of end of 2020. We're in our target to cap this factoring. So to have a small reduction of the worst case as the same figure. Inventories, EUR 200 million, we have factored that we will be able to reduce a part of it because unfortunately, we think that for safety reason, [ so big toss ] we'll have a [ wait ]. And this will finance the growth. So it is why my guidance will be 0 working capital evolution. The leverage is 2.5, less than 2.5, less than 2 is 2023, et cetera, et cetera. And to go to 1 [ a second 1 ] in 2025. Here, the mechanisms are cash flow, divestments. We want to achieve minimum EUR 1 billion of divestments by the end of next year. And of course, the main driver is EBITDA. We're speaking of a new group where I can tell you today, our expectation is much above EUR 3 billion, and we will go to an EBITDA which should be close to 5%, I repeat, 5 in 2025.

Okay. And so the leverage for this year of below 2.5, that includes the EUR 500 million of divestments that you expect for this year.

This included what, sorry, the 500?

The 2.5.

The EUR 500 million of...

EUR 1 billion of divestments.

Yes, of course. No divestments, [ my estimate ] is EUR 500 million for this year.

Yes, so that you said included in the...

EUR 1 billion is by the end of next year. Of course, if we can accelerate, we'll be very happy.

We will now take our next question from Gabriel Adler from Citi.

I have 2 questions, please. The first is coming back to the cost inflation. I think the 80% pass-through that you've spoken about relates specifically to raw mat inflation. But could you also quantify the impact you're expecting from other cost buckets, such as wages, energy and logistics. And are you expecting price recoveries from OEMs this year to help compensate for these? And if so, when do you expect them to take effect? And then my second question is on the outperformance assumed in the guidance. Because when I look at the guidance, I think it implies up to around 400, 500 basis points of outperformance at the top end against that 7% volume assumption you set out. Given that geographic mix alone should contribute about 300 basis points this year, the guidance looks a little bit cautious to me compared to the outperformance you've achieved in 2021. So maybe you could just confirm what level of outperformance you're assuming, excluding geographic mix this year in the guidance?

So again, when we speak about the pass-through mechanism above 80%, it is related to all raw materials. So it is not taking into account the wages, and it's not taking into account the logistics. This said, we have also, of course, discussions about that, again, because they are related to the Stop & Go. The problem we have, I said it, is that if we reduce our headcount, if we flex our costs, we might be in difficulties to recover and to restore our headcount and get ready on time to deliver the growth. So this is something we will have to discuss one by one with our customers on how we will manage this situation. But it is also very clear that we have through cost reductions, through cost optimization, we will have to compensate this inflation, because again, I do believe that a significant part of it is structural, and we cannot accept to get penalized on our valuable margin, especially with these non-compensated or nonpassed-through amounts. We have plans for that.

On the outperformance, I think you are very right. In our budget initially, we were targeting better volumes in Europe. So we have been surprised. So it's a big drop anywhere of volumes in Europe. So theoretically, if we take my budget, I should have an upside with Europe. So it's the same question as Thomas, except to say that normally, we have an upside on volumes/geographical mix.

Maybe a last comment about the inflation. You've seen and you will notice that our customers have increased their prices and sometimes significantly, in order to get compensations about these inflations. So it's difficult to resist on our request to get these compensation, as we do not have the ability to increase our prices as easily. So I think that this will not be the main issue. I'm thinking again, the main issue will be the Stop & Go until we get an real release on the semiconductor volumes.

We will now take our next question from Martino De Ambroggi from Equita.

The first question is on the operating leverage for the current year, if it's possible to split okay, the group, first of all, and if you can split by division, in particular, I'm wondering on the Clean Mobility, which had a very high operating leverage in '21? And the second question is probably a bit complicated. But you mentioned bonuses are correlated to net debt to EBITDA. Just to double check, is it the only metric? Is there any reference to the free cash flow in absolute terms? Is it adjusted in case of a rights issue, in case of buyback of minorities? And last, any update on the rights issue timing?

For the last one, maybe. The decision is not fully validated yet. We have ongoing discussions with the Board of Directors of Faurecia. But we have a consensus that the deleveraging of the group is an critical objective for all of us. What is interesting with net debt to EBITDA, it's catching everything. It's catching EBITDA. It's catching our profitability. It's catching in all our net cash generation. But it's also catching the divestments we might do and the other items you mentioned. We have announced an target, which is the 2.5x at the end of the year, and this is an absolute must achieve for all the teams inside FORVIA.

Leverage, you can say that you are a little disappointed because when you make the calculation, you will arrive at a 15% leverage with respect to the additional sales. This is due to the inflation. Unfortunately, we already discussed that inflation has a weight between 50 to 70 basis points negative. The additional volumes with respect to our guidance, and you have seen the figure, 87 -- 78 million cars will be at least 20%. It is our goal. No discussion on that. By BG, you're right, Clean Mobility has the highest operating leverage. And today, Clarion has the lowest because of the weight of I will say R&D, difference is something like 5%.

Electronic components.

Electronic components. So we have a difference here, but it's not that huge. So clearly, we will deliver 20% of the additional volumes. It is our goal.

We will now take our next question from José Asumendi from JPMorgan.

Jose, JPMorgan. A couple of questions.

We can't hear you. Try again.

Can you hear me now?

Yes.

Okay. Okay. So just a couple of questions, please. The first one on Clean Mobility.

I think we are losing you, Jose.

On Clean Mobility, the question is basically, are we still looking... I think the line is a little bit scratchy. I'll try to formulate the question directly. The Clean Mobility division, are you still looking for a product mix improvement that driving the profitability of Clean Mobility over the next 2 to 3 years as you move the business more towards heavy-duty applications. Second, Patrick, can you speak about the Electronics division and remind us of the revenue split within the Electronics division. And effectively, which drivers do you think you can apply to improve the profitability of electronics. And then finally, raw materials. I didn't catch the number, please, for raw material headwind. If you could just repeat that again? And how do you plan to pass on the incremental cost to the -- to your customers?

So Clean Mobility. Maybe we told you that we achieved EUR 24 billion of order intake the past year. So this is also because we are not catching, we are not accounting for the longevity products. What is very interesting for our business on Clean Mobility is that the customers have stopped designing new engines, new thermal engines, ICEs, but they have also decided to extend the life of these small number of engines, much more than previously planned. So this is for us, excellent because it means that we will have low CapEx and low R&D costs to supply these longevity projects. On the other hand, Euro 7 was delayed several times. And now we expect Euro 7 to be communicated in July of this year. What we know is that it will request additional regulation loops in order to depollute and to reduce the CO2. To depollute further these engines, you will need an electric heated catalyst. We believe that we will need about, that they will need about -- on passenger vehicles, about EUR 80 in addition versus our current average. So on one hand, we have longevity projects with low CapEx and low R&D costs. We will have additional regulation loops, which will compensate the decline in volumes. And so we believe that we will be able to maintain our profitability, including in absolute figures, for quite a longer period of time. We also see popping up more and more questions about will it be possible to achieve an 100% electric mobility in 3035 (sic) [ 2035 ]. And more and more voices are questioning this possibility for 2 reasons mainly. The cost convergence on these vehicles, which appears to be much more difficult than initially forecasted. And the second very important point is infrastructure. At European level, the plan for 2030 was to have about 47 million, 48 million electric vehicles on the road, battery electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids. In order to achieve the right infrastructure, we should currently implement 14,000 loading stations per week. The current figure is 2,000 loading stations per week. So you see that we are pretty far. We also have some difficulties about the peak usage of this infrastructure. So that maybe sinks will have to be [ refo'd ] in the next future. So we are, in a nutshell, absolutely confident about our capacity to maintain the profitability which, by the way, is also financing our hydrogen growing activity. I'm not sure I've understood your question about the electronic division. What I can -- what will help us, what will support us in terms of profitability. The first thing is the portfolio management. HELLA has developed tools to question on a yearly base, its full product portfolio in the electronic field, which are shown to be very effective. And so you understood, we want to be an enabler of systems. We are not saying that we want to be an system supplier. So we will not enter into the large software-based systems of the vehicles, especially related to automated driving. We won't, as an example, be an supplier of electric steering, for example, with all the software related to it, and they are very sophisticated considering the safety guarantees you need to provide. We will have an significant advantage on the purchasing side. It's very interesting to understand that we have 2 center of gravities. We have a Western center of gravity with HELLA and we have an Asian center of gravity with Faurecia. And the combination of both are opening significant synergy potentials. Then we have the footprint. When we speak about electronics, it's -- the majority of the activity is not dedicated. So we have here real possibilities to optimize our global footprint. And finally, and I think it's very important, we are benefiting from the standards in terms of software development, but also on electronic development on cybersecurity, which were developed by HELLA. So the combination is giving us, to make it simple, an critical mass, which is allowing us to improve our profitability, while I have to say that the profitability of the electronics of HELLA is benchmark.

Raw material mechanism. So we speak of steel, plastics and more and more now of semiconductors because we need some indexation. It works with contract -- formal contract or with index. So we have regularly some update and potentially some negotiation with customers. So on steel, it is where it is most contractualized, as every metal. So it is why we can pass through more than 80%, given the total. Plastics, we have different type of plastics. So if it is a polypropylene, it's easier. If it is other chemical part, is more difficult. Globally, with the application of the index of the contract to close, we are above 60%. For semiconductors, [ posiment is ] one-to-one with a negotiation will be more formal, I think, is the new contract. As an impact, I mentioned the EUR 70 million loss. That means that we have passed through more than EUR 400 million to our customers. We have [ so this 70 is ] more or less 40 basis points. But on top of that, when you increase your sales by 400 and your cost by 400, there is a dilution of margin. So we have an additional 20 mechanical dilution of margin. So altogether, as inflation, both 60 to 70 basis point impact on 2021, and we expect a similar figure for 2022.

We will now take our next question from Tom Narayan from RBC.

Tom Narayan, RBC. First, on the CapEx guide, EUR 600 million, that looks like it's a slight uplift from the 2021 level. Is that because of HELLA or is that just catch-up on some underinvestment before? Next, one of your French supplier peers recently gave out a great metric on their assumption for how much business they expect will be outsourced going forward as opposed to being OEM in-source. I think the number was like 40%. Is this something you guys might be able to share with us for your business or any segment at this time? And lastly, CES 2022. We heard some very compelling arguments for why autonomous tech and Level 4 specifically, is already here, but that there's some regulatory obstacle. Most of the math suggest that this will mean a dramatic decline in the amount of cars on the road and sold each year globally. I know this is very far away, but it does beg the question of what happens to a supplier levered to auto production volume, especially Seating and Interiors. VW bought a car rental business and putting a lot of capital behind its own software ambitions. Renault last week just announced the CFO is going to head the Mobility venture. How will Faurecia future-proof its own business when this happens?

You answer the CapEx.

Yes. CapEx. We are starting a new period of very high growth. Patrick mentioned for the new group, but if I take Faurecia alone, we know that with our [ awards ] will be above EUR 20 billion of sales in 2024, 2025. So we are in a situation where, on one side, we have to catch up some CapEx. We have to prepare the growth. And third, we have in some countries to accelerate automation. So it is why my dear colleague of operation is demanding more CapEx, which is normal. So we have to increase his CapEx. It is Faurecia alone, of course, who will give a guidance for HELLA on top of that, to have the full picture on CapEx.

I will try to -- I might combine both questions into one. So the first part is related to volumes. When you look at the demand in Asia, we will still have a growth in the global volumes. Will this growth will be above 95 million vehicles? I don't know. But I do believe that we will achieve at least figures between 93 million and 95 million vehicles. So it's giving us quite some growth perspective. The second point, which we see having been accelerated by the crisis we went through during this 2 last years, we have more customers than prior to the crisis. When you look at the number of newcomers or new OEMs which will share this cake, it is increasing. We had a look on the evolution between 2006 and 2021. In 2006, the Chinese OEMs represented 1% of this automotive production cake. They represent today 13%. And it's not the end. The reverse way, when you looked at the percentage the Americans represented, it melted very significantly during this period of time. We also have newcomers, the Teslas, the Neos, the BYDs. So you have a bench of newcomers which have a very clear center of gravity, which is not so much the fact that they are electric vehicles, but it's much more the electronic architecture and what they are offering in terms of functionalities and upgrades. So I think the move is ongoing, and this is rather good for us to have more customers is reducing our risks. Now you spoke about what is the part which will be integrated by the OEMs. What is very much changing is the amount of electronics and softwares they will have to consider in terms of integration. It's somewhere, corresponding to the full value of the vehicle, between 25% and 30%. So we cannot ignore this huge percentage. They will have to integrate themselves in the management of the main systems of the vehicles. And we decided not to go in this direction. This is why I insisted on our positioning, which is to be an system enabler and not directly the system supplier, because this would mean huge amounts of software engineers. And we do not believe that this is our metier, or that this is corresponding to what we are good at. So we don't think that we will have an issue with vertical integration in our electronic and software portfolio. Now when you look at our traditional metiers, if our OEMs have to consider this new integration, they will not be able to keep their fixed costs considering all the different metiers we currently interface. And I think that we will see in our traditional niches, some externalization rather than internalization. What's the point to keep teams which are capable to develop the interior of a vehicle? And we see it. We see it through the discussions we have with our customers. But as long as, of course, you are able to provide the innovation which is requested, and especially with the CO2 problematic we discussed. And I also believe, it's a third element, which I think is important, the dealership. People will buy their vehicles also through Internet, and more and more. Electric vehicle will have a need for maintenance, which will be significantly reduced versus thermal engines. So the value inside the dealership will melt, will collapse. It means that we will see multi-brand, independent dealerships increasing, popping up with also multi-brand maintenance service offers, which will need diagnostic tools, which will need a completely different interface, which will also need, I'm sure, software but also hardware upgrades for the vehicles. And this is what will offer a new opportunity, an B2C opportunity for Tier 1s like us. And this is also why we have decided to go ahead with life cycle solutions, and we will invest in life cycle solutions in the next future. I hope I've answered your question.

We will now take our next question from Edo Spina from HSBC.

Three questions. The first one is on the restructuring. If you can be a bit more specific about the guidance for 2022, both for the P&L and also for the cash expenditures, whether this is linked to the divestment that you mentioned. The second question is on the other lines, including the net income from associates on Symbio, if you can expand on what you think is going to happen in the next couple of years in terms of cost. And finally, also in the minority line, which I think last year was larger than before. The last question is on the tax. I think Michel said that there is upside to that. I think the last couple of years have been quite difficult to pin down. So if you can give us a guidance on that, again, if you can specify the P&L and the cash impact of the taxes.

I'll take the Symbio part and you -- so Symbio, it's a joint venture with Michelin, it's a 50-50 joint venture. With Michelin, we are perfectly aligned. We have to demonstrate our leadership objective in hydrogen systems. So we acquired EUR 500 million in 2021, I said it. You can compare it with what was awarded to -- by the market. It's a very significant amount. And we are entering now in the industrialization phase. We are building plants which are state-of-the-art plants, but with industrial processes. And I think that a couple of years ago, we were all on the starting line. And so everybody could pretend winning the race. Now the race is ongoing. And I think that we will soon see which companies are the winners, and which are not. And I think that we are very, very well placed in this race. What is also very important is the first one achieving industrial volumes will have a big advantage from an cost point of view. So it's also very important to be the front runner in this race. What I also believe is that the biggest volumes are on light commercial vehicles. And the distance between the light commercial vehicles and the American SUVs and light trucks is short. And I think that this is the next volume booster we will have to face. And this is also something which will happen in China. So you will see that time is accelerating and volumes are accelerating. And we -- I do believe that we are very, very well placed. Now I said it before, it's a 50-50 joint venture. At a point of time we might consider to partially spin off this activity in order to create value for the mother companies, but also to reinvest, of course, in Symbio.

Restructuring, we speak of Faurecia alone without the integration costs, et cetera. So as a guidance, EUR 120 million P&L, slightly above for the cash out. For the tax, the difficulties is that you have understood, Europe was very low [ winter ] So we were in a loss in Germany, a slight profit in France, loss in the States. So it is why we didn't book any, we say, activity, I would say losses. Going forward, this will improve drastically. So I think that P&L-wise, we'll be between 25% to 30% according to the mix and the time of recovery. Cash-wise, same figure as this year.

We will now take our next question from Stephanie Vincent from JPMorgan.

Just a couple of ones related to credit, if I may. And thanks for the disclosure about the net debt to EBITDA target. Just my first one is on the bank covenant. I think that the current syndicated line has a covenant of around 3x. Is there any indication that you will loosen this covenant just to give you more headroom after the HELLA transaction? And then also on the mix of funding. We have Schuldschein sustainability link [ nodes ] the 3-year term loan as well as the bridge to equity. Is there anything further other than your comments in the prepared remarks about your plans for mix of loans versus bonds as well as any intention, I guess, to look at new markets or different currencies from in the past as we move into 2021?

Okay. Thank you for your question. So net debt to EBITDA, you're perfectly right. We have the covenant of 3x. And of course, we will integrate end of June, the 12 months holding of HELLA. So we will be below, of course, this figure. So that is our strong view. And we are very comfortable to say that we repeat the commitment to be below 2.5 end of this year. For the financing, there is a rights issue. We have indicated that we intend to go back to the market for a bond. So all of this in the first half. And we can, according to opportunities, to go to the U.S. bond market for the first time. I think the size of Faurecia, the presence in North America is justifying it.

We will now take our next question from Christoph Laskawi from Deutsche Bank.

It's just on divestments. If you could provide a bit more detail, if it's possible at this stage. Are you already in discussions with interested parties for parts of the business that you want to dispose? And in terms of timing, could we see an announcement already in H1 or for this year, likely more end of Q3, early Q4? And in terms of business that relates to HELLA, which is currently still sitting in the legal entity of HELLA, are there any hurdles for you to negotiate the disposal there? I mean, obviously, the [ company's mentioned if ] Hella needs to approve. But are there any other hurdles which we would need to be aware of?

We are working inside this new configuration FORVIA, also to identify what is not core business to us. One thing is important. We need to manage the complexity as well as possible. And yes, we have identified areas when we will not be able to continue to develop, and we are not the best owner for some of the activities. So yes, we have launched some processes. About HELLA, it's exactly the same thing, by the way. So do we have within HELLA an activity which would not be from an strategic importance, and which could, if divested, give us new possibilities, new resources to invest in what we are considering being more strategic. And this is something we are considering. And we have no hurdles to do that. Of course, we have to go through the HELLA governance and the shareholder committee, which is the body which is finally deciding. But this based on an analysis provided by the management Board of HELLA. So it's a pretty normal and usual process. And it has to -- let us be clear, but this is exactly the same thing for Faurecia. It has to provide, finally, value.

And I guess a comment on timing probably it's too early for now?

Starting now or starting the beginning of the year gives us a good probability to have results before the end of the year. Will it be cashed in? That's a different question, but finalized, yes. Closed, it depends on other parameters and external processes.

We will now take our last question from Michael Foundoukidis from ODDO.

Yes. Two questions remaining on my side. One on the Seating issues that you have in the U.S. Could you make a first comment on what to expect beyond 2022? Is this a program that should remain with you [ chi ] versus other North American operations in 2023 and beyond for the lifetime of the program? Or you believe that you're able to improve it by first half of 2022 is the first question. Second one is you already touched on this topic, but related to relationships between suppliers and OEM, would you say that they have deteriorated a bit in the past 3 years following the improvement that we have in the 2010 decade? And would you expect them to continue to deteriorate or to improve in the coming years?

So about Seating. I said that we are considering structural changes which will allow us to be positive on this project. And by the way, the volumes will also help. I'm sure that when we will be at 100% of the nominal value, a big part of the burden will simply disappear. So yes, we will be positive with this business. When you speak about the relationship supplier OEMs, what I would like to say first is that it is not 1 kind of relationship. We have very different supplier-customer relationships. It goes through real partnerships where we are creating value together, to the ones which are more conflictual. But the first thing is, it's not 1 process or 1 way to consider this relationship. So now what is very clear, and I said it before, our OEMs are understanding that the electrification is a cost, and that this will penalize most probably their P&Ls in the years to come. So we also have to find compensations. We have to find ways to improve their profitability. And because we are representing a significant part of this, they are coming to us. In the same time, the situation today with the Tier 1s has very much changed. They are also dependent on us. The innovation is in a very large -- to an very large extent provided by us. And so we have to find -- I spoke about the Seat for the Planet. I think that the Seat for the Planet is not only improving very significantly the perspectives in terms of functionalities and CO2. It's also disrupting the [ git ] business, which has, if we would be successful with this innovation, have significant cost impacts. So there are things to be done together. I think that we are far from having explored all the cooperation possibilities to reduce costs. So I don't think -- you speak about these tensions, first of all, they do not exist with all our customers, very important. And we have, during this phase, with some of our customers significantly improved our interdependency and our relationship. And secondly, it's also up to us to understand what are the challenges of this industry and to provide solutions, and it's a win-win. We provide innovations, which might reduce the costs, and we get as an reward, higher volumes, which are improving globally our situation. So I'm not pessimistic from this point of view.

I think there is no more question on phone. So we will go to the web. So first question is about from Mr. [ Paolo Dia ] is about the date of the dividend. Is not yet fixed by the Board. I can say as a management very probably just after the shareholder meeting in June. There is a question from Mr. [ Schodoge Info Prodigital ] We have registered a negative consolidated income group share in 2021. We did go back in positive territory in 2022. I remind you that excluding the divestment of [ ST ] et cetera, we were in positive. So we have a recurrent net result positive. Of course, with the additional volumes, we'll be in positive territory. No doubt on that.

Thank you very much for your participation and for your listening. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Goodbye.