Frontier Digital Ventures Limited (FDV) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

My name is Anthony Klok, and I am the company's Chairman. It is my pleasure to welcome you to the 2024 Annual General Meeting of Frontier Digital Ventures Limited. It is now 2:00 p.m. in Malaysia and 4:00 p.m. Australian Eastern Time, which is the time appointed for the meeting. As we have a quorum, I declare the meeting open. We're running this year's meeting as a hybrid meeting again. We've made every effort to ensure the meeting runs smoothly for our shareholders. If we do experience any technical issues, a short recess or adjournment may be required depending on the number of shareholders affected. If this occurs, I shall advise everyone. I would now like you to digitally introduce you to my fellow directors. Mr. Shaun Di Gregorio, who is also the CEO Ms. Frances Po, Mr. Mark Licciardo and Mr. Anthony Saines, welcome to the Board. The company's auditor, PKF Brisbane audit is represented online by Shaun Lindemann, and our Company Secretary is also online, Sandra Mackintosh, and I have the pleasure of welcoming you both today. The auditor will be available to answer questions on the conduct of the audit and the audit report for the year-ended 31 December 2023. Also, representatives from our Computershare -- from Computershare, our share registry provider are also in attendance online. Welcome, Julie. Just before we commence the business of the meeting, I will just deal with a few procedural matters. A letter to shareholders regarding the arrangements for the meeting in lieu of the notice of meeting was sent to shareholders on 12 April 2024, and it was lodged with the ASX on the same date. That letter provide details on how to vote at this meeting. I propose that the notice of meeting and the explanatory memorandum that accompanied that notice be taken as read. Proxy votes. We've received a lot of proxies prior to this meeting, and they will be shown on the screen for each Resolution dealt with today. For those shareholders who have not submitted a proxy for today's Resolutions, once I have declared the poll open, you will be given an opportunity to vote on all of the Resolutions. As stated in the Notice of Meeting, as Chairman, I intend to vote those proxies left to my discretion in favor of the Resolutions. Please note that Resolutions 1, 4 and 5 are subject to voting exclusions. Those exclusions are detailed in the notice of meeting should anyone wish to review them. These exclusions will be taken into account when the poll is conducted. Just on how to ask questions. If you're a shareholder and have any questions or comments on any of the items of business being dealt with today, please raise your hand if attending in person or more likely, your digital hand using the function available within Zoom. You will be unmuted on your microphone, and that will allow you to either speak or to type in your question in the Q&A tab. If you could please state your name or the organization you represent before proceeding with the question, that would be appreciated. Finally, I note that shareholders were afforded an opportunity to submit written questions to the company secretary, and I understand that we have not received any questions in writing prior to this meeting. Just a couple of words on how to cast your vote. If you are eligible to vote at the meeting, you will need to log in as a shareholder. Instructions on how to vote via the Computershare meeting platform are currently displayed on the screen. If you can follow those instructions, please log in and that will enable you to vote at the meeting. Voting today will be conducted by way of the poll on all items of business. In order to give everyone enough time to vote, I now declare the voting open on those items. You can submit your votes at any time, and I'll remind people before I close the voting. Now to the business of the meeting. I will make a few introductory remarks, but I'll keep them relatively short as Shaun has a presentation, and I'm sure you're more interested in listening to Shaun than the Chairman. During last year, we continue to execute against our long-term strategic plan of investing in market-leading core classified models in emerging markets. We're now turning our attention to expanding the length of these models to grow what we believe a significant ancillary and transactional revenue opportunities. We operate in the regions of Latin America, MENA and Asia, and we remain excited by the significant opportunities for us in these regions given the relatively high levels of GDP, the increasing Internet and mobile penetration and the large populations of those regions. We did see some challenging macroeconomic conditions in the first half of last year, but the second half was a significant improvement, and that is highlighted by our strong performance in the last 6 months. Shaun and the management group, the FDV's continuous focus on prudent cost management enabled us to achieve a maiden full year positive operating cash flow and positive EBITDA. This is important as this achievement has set a solid foundation for us in 2024. We start from a position of profitability, growing margins and improved cash flow performance. And this will enable us to focus on increasing growth through spend on product. Shaun will talk more about that in a few minutes. The 360 LATAM portfolio group now generate a significant portion of our statutory revenue, and we believe that, that region is well positioned to deliver significant growth, which is expected to be driven by the ongoing product development. Zameen in Pakistan experienced a challenging -- very challenging 2023 due to the adverse economic conditions in that country. However, Shaun and I have recently had a Board meeting with the Pakistan company. And we believe that some of the macroeconomic indicators are definitely showing signs of improvement, and we are more optimistic towards an economic recovery, which would be good news for Zameen in Pakistan than we were a year ago. Against this background, our focus will firmly remain on revenue growth through the increased product investment whilst continuing to obtain discipline around operating costs. On behalf of the shareholders and the Board of Directors, Shaun and the rest of the management team, thank you for your efforts last year. Also, I'd like to extend my thanks to all of the shareholders who've dialed in today and all of the shareholders of FDV for your continued support as we continue to execute against our strategy. Shaun, I'll now pass over to you to work through your presentation for everyone who has dialed in today. Thanks Shaun.

Thanks, Anthony, and welcome, everyone, to the meeting, and those shareholders who've dialed in. I think we historically had always used a sort of hybrid online version of the AGM, which was further solidified during COVID when I think everyone went fully virtual. But I think it's been a great way for us, certainly given the businesses we're in, where we do them and the nature of our work, enabling more and more shareholders to get access to the Board through this virtual format to get access to management and to get access to the Chairman and the directors and the various people who work on the business. So welcome, everyone. Glad that we've got a fair number of people who have dialed in. Just over the next sort of 15 minutes, I'll walk you through much of which we released previously, but it's good to get a reminder and certainly for those who have dialed in to here at first hand. The background to our Group, of course, is that we operate a classified model. Historically, that's been the core of our business. And the classifieds model remains at the core of what we do. And for those of you who are familiar with the model, you will have seen it in developed markets certainly and on a very large scale and increasingly in emerging markets around the globe scaling up, which is exciting for us. The model is predicated on being market leaders. If you followed our story, you'll know that we started out buying minorities of business, founder-led businesses. And then as those businesses have scaled and started to develop revenue streams and a line of sight on profitability, we like to buy the rest of them. And we've, over time, put them into these 3 geographic regions, which I'll talk to in a moment. But the key thing is that we've always tried to develop market leadership, and that's more important than ever. Emerging markets are a huge opportunity that's where we operate. We don't operate in developed markets for exclusively emerging markets. And if you've followed us, you know that the model predicated around classifieds, the long players, of course, the opportunity around transactions. And as Anthony has mentioned, much of which is now being focused on our product road map, and that goes to the point that Anthony also made around the fact that we start 2024 in a unique position of being profitable of having improved cash flows and being market leaders, and that's right where you want to be, not just for the sake of this model working. But if you think about the choppy nature of the markets over the last 12 to 18 months being a market leader, having a really strong core classifieds. But having this long-term vision around revenues that can be generated from transactions as pivotal. So as difficult as the last 12 to 18 months, it's been, I think we've come through it in really good shape. The macro is sort of those big macro markets are right where we wanted them to be or market leaders, and we've got a really clear path about the value that we can create in emerging markets. Thank you, Sandra. As I mentioned, we've now formed over the last sort of 18 months, these 3 geographic regions, 360 LATAM, MENA Marketplace Group, which we refer to as MMG and FDV Asia, we didn't change FDV Asia it sort of stayed the same on virtue on account of the fact that we rebranded the first 2 Groups. So those 3 geographic regions are our key focus. This at an operating level makes it much easier for us operating in the 3 regions, talk a bit more about 360 LATAM in a moment. But the structures are now evolving if we use 360 LATAM as a bit of a model where we've got a considerable sized business now. We've got a local management team in place, has a really clear vision and set of objectives of its own. And we're starting to replicate that structure in MENA as well or MMG. And over time, we'd like to see a similar structure for evolving Asia. As Anthony mentioned, the Zameen business is one that's been important to us in the past. It had difficulties over the last 12 to 18 months. But all of the indicators point to 2024 being a much better period for Zameen. The macro markets in Pakistan are improving. We're seeing the big items such as obviously, inflation and interest rates start to abate. Currency has been very stable, and we're seeing a return to activity in the market. So we remain cautiously optimistic with Zameen. I think from our perspective, it remains all upside now. The business Zameen remained profitable through our cash flow positive throughout, which is a real credit to the management team there. But it's an important business for us, and we think that it's heading in to much better times in '24 than it had in the latter part of '22 and '23. One of the features we've sort of added to this slide or pushed it back up the order of things. Again, it's just reiterate the value of being a market leader, what we've seen over the past 18 months in higher interest rate environments that we've seen in a long time has been a contraction in competitive activity. People are familiar with the markets. They will have known that there's been a huge sort of startups seen in a lot of emerging markets over the past couple of years. And a lot of it was funded with sort of what we refer as crazy COVID cash. Being a market lead up has become even more critical. What we've seen in the last 12, 18 months is a lot of that competitive activity [abide this] as some of these economies have come a bit tougher. And as you get through that difficult period and these economies start to improve, we're left with probably lesser competition than we've had before. And being a market leader, we think, was always important historically, but it's going to be even more important in the future. And it's just a position you want to be in. And the fact that we've got that market position is really important to our future value and future growth potential. Thanks, Sandra. In terms of the model, as Anthony mentioned, we're very now focused on what is, I guess, a next phase for us. Our financial position has improved over the past couple of years. All of our businesses have become profitable. All our 3 regions that in case those 3 businesses are profitable at a regional level, and we've become cash flow positive and improved our cash flow. So while the last 12 to 18 months has been difficult on just a general basis, what we have done has really improved our financial position. We're growing revenues, we're growing profit and we're growing cash. What that enables us to do is really focus on the next phase, as I said, and that's one about getting our product road map, right? And that product road map really goes to this model, which is the characteristics of emerging markets being a little bit different to developed markets. There's opportunity in classified -- there's opportunity in ancillary revenues and moreover, this opportunity down the track around transactions. So, this model is very clear in our mind, and we're now about executing it as rapidly as we can, particularly the last couple of boxes around ancillary and transactions and again, predicated around being market leaders in emerging markets. Thanks, Sandra. Just to give context to where we operate. Put simply, the 3 regions make up a very large population base, very large GDP. Internet penetration is still growing in their mobile markets. That's pretty common in emerging markets. We've always seen mobile access to the internet outpace any typical historic definition of internet penetration, be it Wi-Fi or other. But look, the opportunity is really clear for us. So, we like to just remind people of the bigger picture sort of zoom out. Sometimes we're very focused day-to-day operationally and making sure our strategy is in place, but sometimes just reminded to zoom out and look at the big picture, which is significant markets. And if you compare them even to Australia, albeit in Australia's developed market, these are all emerging markets, these are many more times the size of some of the markets that a lot of our investors are probably living in or familiar with. But when you add up all of the markets, we're in, that's an exciting opportunity as we head into the next couple of years. From a financial perspective, the dark blue chart is our consolidated entities, the lighter blue is our equity accounted entities and essentially represents Zameen in Pakistan. So, you can see when you look at the dark blue chart, we've had really consistent revenue growth right through from our listing and obviously through COVID. And we started the year from a first quarter perspective year-on-year pretty well. The pale blue part, which is Pakistan, obviously, historically has made up a large chunk of our revenue. And as I said, far more optimistic about what we see occurring with Zameen. And then if you look at the EBITDA position as well, you can see that really strong trend growth in our profitability, dark blue consolidated entities and the lighter-colored or the equity accounted entities. And we've been able to rebalance our portfolio, which has been a great feature of the diversification across our 3 regions. So, we've seen good, consistent revenue growth throughout from a consolidated perspective and good consistent EBITDA growth. One thing I would just remind people and our investors is that the temptation of course, is to get caught up on a quarterly release. We're not a monthly sort of quarterly company. What we are focused on is this longer-term trend. And when we look at the longer-term trend and we look at the revenue growth that occurred consistently in our business, particularly on the consolidated entities basis, that's what we're really focused on, and that's what we're aiming to continue to grow in the years to come. And of course, as Anthony mentioned and as I mentioned earlier, what we have done is got ourselves in a really strong financial position. So, when you put all of that together, we've got good revenue growth, good operating EBITDA and, of course, cash flows. We can now really focus on scaling up the business and our product road map, which is what we'll talk about in a moment. Thanks, Sandra. So if you look at our strategy, it's really been predicated as I said around building the core classifieds businesses, making sure that we're market leaders in emerging markets that have a lot of opportunity and then executing our way through to opportunities around transactions. And of course, the step between classifieds and transaction opportunities is where these ancillary products live. So we're now very focused on building out our product road map and our product strategy. And we've been able to do this, as I said, because we've reached a really strong financial position and strong market positions. And this is why you're a market leader. You're now saying, hey, we good-grade classifieds businesses. We're doing a lot of our transactions, which is the long play. But there's a huge opportunity in servicing our consumers and our advertisers just around the ancillary products, which is a lot of the things that connect the classifieds businesses with that ultimate aim of getting more revenues around transactions. We know the economics of this strategy. So, lots of opportunity in classifieds, enormous opportunity in transactions and an opportunity now to fill that gap between the core classifieds and the transaction opportunity, which is a whole product set that we're now rolling out to our consumers and our customers across our 3 regions. And being able to focus on our product road map, being able to focus on this strategy in '24 and beyond. As I said, it's been an outcome of getting the businesses to be running well to be profitable, to be growing and generating cash. You then are not so -- you're not obsessing about necessarily losing money or burning cash. We're not that company. We're profitable and we're growing. So we've now got a wonderful opportunity to focus rather on the product road map. And I'll talk to a couple of those products now on the next slide. Just on the next slide, Sandra. So a product like Iris, for example, this is a product that fills that gap between transactions and our classifieds businesses. This has been released in LATAM. We've talked about this before, but this is a great example of the sorts of products that we're rolling out into markets. It's rolled out extensively or primarily now through our 360 LATAM business, and we're looking at replicating this product into other regions. This is a product that helps our customers connect and generate more transactions. So put simply, it's a product that exists to service the real estate industry, it enables developers who have lots of inventory that they've built, connects them with agents and brokers who are also our customers and helps generate more transactions for those 2 customer sets. So if you think about the classifieds business and this big leap to transactions, it's a great example of a product that's now helping our customers move not just for classified advertising, but to connect better and help them generate more transactions. So rolled out right across LATAM, and it's a great example of the sort of products that we're now really focused on developing and getting embedded into our existing customer base and is starting to produce significant revenues for the business. Another example is on the next slide, which is a product called Centrify. We move on Sandra. This is a product, again, it's sort of a marketplace within a marketplace. It helps our customers source more materials. If you're familiar with sections on sites like REA, where there are renovation sections where you can shop and source goods and supplies. This is a very similar product rolled out across 360 LATAM now, it's a B2B product and again, sort of fills this gap in our customers and for our consumers between classifieds and transactions. So again, it's a product I've spoken about before, but we're going to continue to highlight some of the product initiatives that are happening across our Group, and these are starting to generate significant revenues and consequent value for the Group. So this is just helping people to understand the movement from classifieds to transactions and then all of the opportunities that exist in between and these are the sorts of products that are now real. They're working. Our customers like them, and we're going to continue to roll them out and continue to develop more products like this. So, this just gives some substance to that product road map and the product road map might give some substance to the overall strategy we have. So, it's helping people really understand that big picture strategy down into the regions and how we're rolling out products to map to that strategy and generate value for the business. Thanks, Sandra. Similarly, in MENA, so this is just moving to another region. MENA is much more of a classifieds business. It's a little more traditional. It's probably not as evolved as LATAM. But again, you can just see the sort of products, similar strategy, similar sort of big picture, slightly different range of products, but moving the MENA Group from being a very traditional classifieds business, making that lead to transactions and then all of the ancillary products and opportunities that exist in between classifieds and transactions. Just to give investors and people who are looking at our business, again, a bit of a look into the operation of these businesses and how that big picture strategy is playing out in a practical sense in the regions, in this case, MENA. And you can see there's lots of innovation that is happening to really give our consumers and our customers more opportunity to engage with our services on our sites and our platforms and ultimately, of course, generate transactions, which is part of our strategy. And we'll move past this slide with Sandra. FDV Asia, a similar story. But again, just giving everyone a bit of a look into the sorts of products that are happening. Asia is an interesting region. It's very dynamic. It still remains probably the most competitive of the 3 regions for us. So we're very focused on solidifying market leadership and ensuring that our classifieds businesses are running really well. We've done a lot of transaction work in Asia. So, Asia, really is about trying to fill that ancillary product pieces as well. So, a very dynamic region, strong market leadership in each of our markets. Lots has been done - a lot of work done on transactions. So, there's a big opportunity now for Asia to the businesses in Asia to fill that gap. And again, we're really focused on that property vertical in Asia, probably more so than the auto piece, but lots of opportunity in both segments of the business in Asia for us. So that is a snapshot of a lot of the things we've spoken about to investors over the last sort of 18 months. What you'll take away from that thematically is that we're very focused on product-led strategy as we move into the next phase of this business. And we've been able to do that on account of the fact we've got our businesses to a financial position of strength. And when we look at our competitive environment, market leadership critical, less competition due to the economic factors that have gone on around us. And we come into 2024 looking really healthy. So we're quite excited about the next phase. The last few years has been hard work. Some of the hard work is starting to pay off. We've got a structure out. We're really clear on our strategy. And now it's really getting the right products in the hands of our customers and consumers that are going to drive scale and growth over the next period for FDV. So Anthony, on that note, I'll hand back to you.

Thank you, Shaun. Just wondering, does anyone have any questions for Shaun at this stage on the presentation. Sandra has anyone got a hand up for questions or typed anything in the tab.

No. They haven't.

In that case, and there will be an opportunity later if someone does have a question. I'll move on to the, I guess, the more formal Resolution part of this meeting. And that's to consider the 6 items of business as we set out in the Notice of Meeting and 5 of these are to be voted on. The first part of the items business is around the financial statements and reports. The first items of business is to receive and consider the annual report, including the directors' report and the auditor's report for the year-ended 31 December 2023. Are there any questions or comments to the directors and auditor's report? I would imagine if you don't have any for sure, and it's unlikely, but if you do raise your digital hand and we should take the question. There being no questions, we now move to the items of business for which a vote is required. Again, if you want to -- if you haven't voted already, then you can vote at any time during this meeting. We will display the details of the proxy votes on the screen as we deal with each of these Resolutions. The first Resolution relates to the adoption of the remuneration report, Resolutions in front of you on the screen. If we can just move to the voting in respect of the proxies received prior to the meeting which look overwhelmingly in favor of it. Are there any questions or comments on Resolution 1. And so there are no questions. I put the Resolution to the vote. We can just move on to the second Resolution, that does relate to myself. So I think I'll pass the floor to Mark Licciardo. Mark, do you mind just dealing with this Resolution?

Yes, as you've stated, Resolution relates to your reelection, Klok as a director. So with that, I'll hand back to you to just say a few words in support of your reelection to the Board.

Thanks, Mark. Look, I've been on the Board for the last few years and very happy to offer myself for reelection. Again, it feels like we are only part way working through our value creation strategy. Just to give you my quick background, I've been working for 40 years and the first half of my career was as a commercial lawyer. The second part of my career, the last 20 years, my experience has been in sourcing negotiate and investing in online and technology companies. I am currently an investment director on the JAADE Australia Private Assets Fund, which is a fund where we identify and invest in technology-based companies such as FDV. So my board experience has also been significant in a way. Former non-Exec Director on the Board of both Carsales and Seek. But also, plenty of experience on a number of boards over the journey. So yes, with that, Mark, I'll pass back to you, but happy to offer myself up.

Thank you, Anthony. So, voting in respect of the proxies received prior to the meeting is now displayed on the screen and overall are in favor of the Resolution. Are there any questions or comments on the Resolution #2. As there's no questions specifically relating to this Resolution on the reelection of our Chairman, I'll now hand back to the Chair of this meeting to answer the call. Thank you.

Thank you, Mark. Resolution 3 relates to the election of Mr. Anthony Saines as a Director. Welcome to the Board, Anthony, and I will pass over to you, Anthony, too, I should say. I'll pass over to you to say a few words about your background.

I won't recap my bio as it is there for anyone to read, but instead, I'll give some -- I'd like to give some context behind my appointment to the FDV Board. I've worked in and around online classifieds and internet marketplaces for 20 years or so. I am a big believer in the business model, the defendable moats that can be established. And of course, the network effects that arise in well-run online marketplaces. I did experience it firsthand in a decade or so, I spent working as a senior executive at carsales.com. I joined pre-IPO and I helped it and sort of grow and to become the international juggernaut, classifieds juggernaut that it is today. So I do believe my relevant skills and hands-on experience will be an asset to the FDV Board and the operational businesses, too. So, I'm very excited by the significant opportunities that Lahore have for us and really keen to stay on board. Thank you.

Thank you, Anthony, we do welcome you in your experience to the Board. We believe you'll be a really good contributor. So, thank you for taking up the appointment. If we can move to the voting in respect of the proxies received prior to this meeting, again, overwhelmingly for Anthony being appointed to the Board. Are there any questions or comments in relation to Resolution 3? As there are no questions, I now put this Resolution to a vote, and we'll move on to Resolution 4. The Resolution is on the screen before us all the voting in respect of Resolution 4 in relation to proxies received. Also on the screen now. Any questions or comments in relation to this Resolution? Thank you. I now put Resolution 4 to a vote. And then we'll move on to the last Resolution. Resolution 5 relates to the issue of ordinary shares to Frances as a nonexecutive director. Again, the Resolution is on the screen, people to read Jason, if we can move to the voting received prior to the meeting. And again, the voting is overwhelmingly for. Are there any questions or comments on this Resolution? Thank you. In that case, I now put this final Resolution to a vote. Jason, just to return, there was a comment in relation to Zameen. Have we received any other questions from shareholders at this stage?

It's a question from Mr. John Thompson, he said -- he's asked, can you update shareholders on the plans to sell this Zameen? And what a sell would mean for FDV?

Yes. I'll -- at this stage, we're a 30% shareholder in Zameen. We're sitting on the Board meetings. We know that the parent Group had plans for an IPO, which have been delayed due to what's occurred in Pakistan more generally, what occurred through COVID. Those plans, to our understanding, have been delayed but have not been abandoned. But I wouldn't have thought that there -- and it makes sense for us to tap into that sort of exit plan. I imagine though that they won't be looking again at a listing until probably the fourth quarter of this year, but we don't know this. I'm not sure, do you have any other view at this stage?

Look, I'll just add to that, that the aspiration -- so just for context, there's [us at] 30%, as Anthony mentioned, the founders and the holding company owns the other portion of the business, the 70%. So, the idea is that they have signaled an intent to list that parent, not just the Zameen, but the parent returns a few other things. So that aspiration remains real and it remains alive and I think they're in a public record about 18 months ago, and they've been signaling that, that was their intent. And then, of course, the world changed. And when the facts change, so much to your opinion. So, they delayed it. They're very much aspirationally still want to do it, and it will become a question of timing. Our sense is that we'll need to see obviously a steady improvement. What we have seen in the last 3 to 4 quarters has been a real stabilization in the business in Zameen and throughout, as I said, they've remained profitable and cash flow positive throughout, which I think shouldn't be understated in terms of what they've had to navigate domestically and their ability to run that business profitably throughout that period. Albeit that their revenues have obviously suffered due to the contraction in transaction volumes in the market and that happens when interest rates go up. If you're sitting listening to this in Australia, everyone knows that narrative. So as interest rates start to come off and they are as inflation starts to come off, you'll see a return to transaction activity, and that will mean a return to activity for Zameen. So, if I were to try and track that business, I would say that it's definitively stabilized. We're seeing that consistently now. That's the first sort of tick. What we're looking for now is growth and improvement. And the management are cautiously optimistic -- to the extent that it will determine their timing on an IPO, that remains to be seen. And as Anthony has indicated, I think that I'll look at the business performance over the next couple of quarters and make an assessment. What that means for us, assuming that there is one quarter an inevitability, got a strong desire on their part to list what does that mean for us? I think, and I've said before that I think there's a number of scenarios that we consider whether you go the distance with them and stay in the business through the IPO, whether you took an opportunity to exit a portion of our stake or our whole stake or others. I think for us, we don't see a bad outcome. We think all of the outcomes on the back of their parent company listing would be positive. And I'm not being -- I'm not being lonely optimistic. We've spoken about this extensively internally. So, for us, we're supporting them. We're encouraging them. We're doing what we can to support the business and their aspiration. And if that sees day light, and we're in a really good position. And I would say this about Zameen also that it's no mystery that historically, the market had a lot of value in Zameen and that was reflected in our price. We have replaced all of that revenue with other businesses. So now when we look at Zameen, we see upside. It's all upside from here for us. So, the value that's there, we think will grow. The guys locally, domestically are doing a great job running that business, and we're being really pleased. We had a Board meeting, I think, this time last week, Anthony and -- it was encouraging to see that the leadership team at Zameen talking more cautiously optimistically about the future. So all going well, we hope they do. If they do, it will be great, and there - that ambition remains.

Just a couple of concluding remarks on Zameen. As Shaun said, it's a much smaller part of our overall portfolio. We do think about it, not as we used to. I think if you can put your money in the bank at 22% in Pakistan, if you watch those interest rates, the money some has already flowed out into the stock exchange, which has recovered strongly. We believe it will flow back into the property market and foreign investors will also put some money back into the property market over the next period, whatever that may be. Zameen has really rightsized its operating cost. So, the recovery will come at some point, trying to predict that, though is not for today's meeting. That concludes the formal business to be considered. I will shortly close the voting system, though, you can still vote on the Resolutions. I'm just going to pause for 20 seconds or 30 seconds, if you'll allow me to do that just to allow anyone who hasn't voted to close their votes, please go ahead now. Thank you. I will now close the poll. It will take a little bit of time to analyze the poll results. Once they're compiled later on today, probably, the results will be announced to the ASX either today or tomorrow I imagine. We are now at the end of the meeting. Thank you for dialing in. It's appreciated. We look forward to convening again at the same time next year for the AGM and to discuss our progress over the next 12 months. Thank you for your attendance, and I now declare the meeting closed.