Galaxy Surfactants Limited (GALAXYSURF) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Galaxy Surfactants Limited Q1 FY '22 Earnings Conference Call. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company which are based on the beliefs, opinions and expectations of the company as on the date of this call. These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Unnathan Shekhar, Managing Director. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you. A very good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to this first investor con call of this financial year '21/'22. It is often said the only certain thing about life is uncertainty that it brings with itself. In the financial year '20/'21 was the beginning, quarter 1 FY '21/'22 has only added to this uncertainty. While the financial year bygone manifested the significance and resilience at Galaxy, the financial year '21/'22 marks the dawn of acceptance, adaptation, augmentation and action. Accepting the transformation of the world into a new normal; acquiring the flexibility and agility to fully adapt to the dynamic phenomena; augmenting the value delivered to our customers by further enhancing our customer-centric solutions; and believing in target-oriented actions. It is this approach that has ensured we face the multiple challenges on hand with confidence and emerge stronger. Our Q1 performance is a testimony to this. A quarter, which not only adversely impacted each and every element of our supply chain, but also saw improved performance in multiple areas. Ladies and gentlemen, while the demand outlook remains robust, our ability to service this is dependent on the supply chain scenario. We say this as at the start of the quarter, we had the wave 2 impacting our people, the heart of our operations. While this had an impact on production, the major hit came in the form of delay, the delay in setting up and operationalizing our new capacities for our Specialty Products. The worsening international logistics scenario due to rising freight costs and unavailability of containers compounded the situation. Rising input costs and unavailability of certain critical raw materials are diversely impacting our ability to service demand, thereby impacting our performance. Ladies and gentlemen, we may sound pessimistic, but we think it is important to convey you the reality as it is. The international logistics scenario continues to worsen, and we see the same continuing for the remaining part of the year. Now despite the multitude of challenges, our teams have responded exceptionally well. This quarter saw your company registered a 15.4% volume growth led by our Specialty Products. While the momentum continues to remain robust for our performance -- for our Performance products, opening of the developed economy leaded our Specialty volumes. We see this trend continuing in the coming quarters. Rest of the World market has made a strong come back on the back of a robust performance registered by our Specialty Products. While India has grown 32.1% in terms of volumes, we remain cautious due to 2 reasons: signs of tepid demand and missing pent-up demand, which is present in the quarter 2 of FY '21. The Africa, Middle East and Turkey region primarily got impacted in this quarter due to the supply chain constraints. Demand remains robust, and we are confident of getting our mojo back from Q2 FY '22. This quarter also saw your company launching Galaxy Hearth, a specialized home care brand based on the fundamental premise of sustainable innovative solutions for our Home Care customers. We also launched Galaxy Hearth Mix Pods under our Hearth range, a new age solution to meet the needs of the new age consumer, a ready mix concentrate for the preparation of Laundry Pods or Capsules powered by plant-based surfactants. The Home & Personal Care industry today requires innovative and sustainable solutions to power their brands. Our recent launches ensure the same. Vaccination is critical. To ensure 100% vaccination for all eligible employees, apart from bearing the entire cost of vaccination, your company also organized vaccination drives at our plants and corporate office. We are pleased to share that all our eligible employees have been 100% vaccinated and have got their first dose. The company will ensure that the second dose gets completed, and we hope to complete the same by September end. So ladies and gentlemen, while things may appear uncertain, uncertainty breeds agility and ability. A combination of this ensures action and response. At Galaxy, we believe, with the right mix of people, solutions, infrastructure and customers, we are not only ready to ward off this challenge but also be ready for our future, the hallmark of a sustainable organization. So thank you, ladies and gentlemen. We will now welcome questions from you. Thank you once again. And be safe and stay safe.

[Operator Instructions] We'll take our first question from the line of Sanjesh Jain from ICC Securities.

Few questions. First on the volume growth. If I look at 2 years CAGR, assuming that last year was an anomaly, so if I look at 2 years CAGR, which gives me a better picture, how are we performing. Performance has grown at 7.2%, while Specialty is still flattish on a 2-year CAGR. Though we did say the developed market is coming back, but it's still not coming back as good as Performance. So should we see a further acceleration in the growth for Specialty? And what has held on to the growth for the Specialty in this quarter? This is my first question.

Yes. Sanjesh, thank you. So the entire situation today has to be looked at not from only the context of market out by entities, but the ability of us and other members in this industry to respond to these requirements. And the response to these requirements have been significantly and severely impacted due to supply chain challenges all across the world, okay? So it never truly reflects what is the potential of the market in terms of what it is still not taking from us, okay? So the supply chain situation, which has been gray over -- right from, let's say, October of last year, continues only to worsen. And we are not very optimistic even for the balance 9 months of the year with respect to the supply chain situation, okay? We do hope that things come back to normal at least from the beginning of the next financial year.

Sanjesh, it's Natarajan here. There are 2 other aspects. One is our CapEx that was to be commissioned last year itself -- last financial year for our Specialty ingredients at Tarapur and Jhagadia. It was supposed to have been commissioned last June. It got pushed to this March because of COVID wave 1. Again, when we were at the last week of commissioning, we had the COVID wave 2, and this is getting commissioned only in December. So as we had the commissioning of these plants than earlier as we had anticipated, I think we could have serviced more volumes of Specialty ingredients. That is one. Second is also in this quarter, we had certain critical raw material constraints in terms of availability, okay, also ensured the we couldn't service the demand in a very wholesome manner. So these 2 -- by far, these 2 had been -- headwinds had not been there, I think we could have certainly shown better growth in our Specialty ingredients and to some extent even in Performance Surfactants.

Got it. So it's not that the supply chain is helding back in terms of inventory towards -- which needs to be shipped?

Can you be a little louder, Sanjesh?

So to ship all the products, it's not that we couldn't ship the -- all the order and there is a backlog, which can come in the subsequent quarter. Nothing like that. It's just the raw material of availability?

Not that. Not that. There is a -- you see it's too complex, Sanjesh. It's a combination of -- because what is impacted is both incoming and outgoing, okay? The issue is my suppliers are ready with the material, they're just not able to find containers or if they find the containers, they were not able to find space on the vessels. The other aspect is on my outgoing. If you look at the U.S. West Coast, it's the worst impacted. Latin America is the worst impacted, because it's just not that the sailings happening at the frequency that it is required, and the containers are available. Forget the cost -- the freight rates have gone up 4x to the U.S. West Coast. It has gone up by 3x in Asia Pacific. So that anyway is an issue. So the ability for us to service our customers' requirements on time and for them to plan their requirements, okay, it really got impacted and our team's entire objective is to see how well I am able to meet my customer requirements despite all these challenges. It's been obsolete. What I can say is that a lot of the engineered solutions being come up with people are working 24/7 in my operations team to ensure that we don't miss on any single kilo of serving our customers. That's the situation we are in. It's been unprecedented. I think I haven't experienced this in my -- this sort of a situation on international logistics in the last 20 years. And you see that being echoed by many exporters and importers, okay, over the last 6 months. FIU has been mentioning this time and again, in almost every fortnight.

So the challenge for international trade, as we see it for the coming year, is going to be only this supply chain and logistics challenges and not just in India, but across the world.

Got it. Now for us, it's a dual challenge, because we have to pay inbound higher freight charge and for us, export is a larger contributor. So we have an outbound. Are we getting enough price increase to cover the rise in the logistic cost, which will help us maintain a [indiscernible]?

See, one of the important things -- if you look at from when I engage with customers, I can tell you -- I can make it real for you. So I'm talking to customers, the first thing is I actually be able to guarantee a delivery to them on the date they want it. And then I can talk about the increase. The issue here is the increase that I talked today, by the time I dispatct it, say, 3 weeks from now, the rates have gone up. Because no one says that they give me a rate today, they will keep it valid when I want to ship it. So it's all of that and then you also have shipping companies we say for -- to do the booking, you need to be paying some advance freight. And if you don't take their sailings, okay, it gets forfeited. So now in this situation, when I engage with customers, first is, I should be -- my ability to be able to pass on increases is determined by 2 aspects. One is I actually be able to guarantee this thing, you want it on this day, you'll get it on this day. The second is what I say today as the freight cost is something that should stay valid when I ship it to them. Because I can't go back to the customers every week, saying that last week what I told you is no longer valid, you need to be taking in a higher freight cost. So that does upset the rhythm in terms of my customers' ability to source from me, correct. So it's a very sensitive situation and we are ensuring that we keep our customers satisfied. We keep them giving reassurance. And the only objective we have -- if you ask me today, my team's only objective is -- the mandate to them is ensure that you reach the material to the customers on the date they require it. Do all that you need to do. And once -- because this situation, it's may be there for the next 9 months or 12 months, but this is not going to be remaining forever. But I need to have customers well in terms with me, correct? So that's a sort of a mindset with which we are working.

Got it. So the related question on the margin. So if I look at the margin in our 2 entity versus a stand-alone entity and then the remaining part of the consol, it looks like stand-alone has taken a bigger hit in the margin, which is 550 basis points whereas the non-stand-alone, which basically is your Egypt and U.S., there, the margin compression is much lower at 340 basis points. I thought India, because we have a larger exposure to Specialty, the margin compression have -- should be relatively lower. But there is a significant difference in the margin compression what we have seen in the India entity, whereas AMET entity [indiscernible] in the reverse order.

Yes. So first, the thing is if you need to look at the positive side of it, Sanjesh, because you have -- we have 3 engines, and you see that all these 3 engines are faring pretty well. And we -- which obviously is a testimony to the sort of business model that we have and in terms of the products and the locations, the subsidies from where we operate. That is -- having said that, the issue in this stand-alone in India was, the Specialty ingredients, the impact was in terms of freight rates, the raw material prices as well as -- because there are contracts that we do, okay, which obviously have to be ensuring that we deliver. Freight rates are also something that -- because Specialty Chemicals, you can't be changing the pricing every month, okay? So -- because we need to ensure that the customers are -- they have a sense of certainty. And also, our ability to serve, okay, the Specialty Products, okay, was also severely constrained in terms of our -- the unavailability of certain critical feedstocks and we have to resort to importing certain intermediates, paying a much higher cost to be able to fulfill the demand. So that was specific that explains why the stand-alone, despite the Specialty Ingredients volume being higher, why you don't see a commensurate margin increase.

Got it. One last question back on the margin. Despite all this, we are still doing a very strong INR 43.8 per kg kind of gross profit per kg, which, probably barring last quarter, is our highest from the gross profit per kg perspective. Probably margin may not be right. Do you think this kind of gross margin per kg, we could sustain even going forward?

See, the only headwind is -- first is important for me is to ensure that we keep our customers within our fold, and we ensure we support them in every possible way, despite all the constraints that we have. Margin will obviously be a consequence, okay? I have the customers with me, and they have invested so much amount of effort and time in me in terms of keeping me into their buying portfolio in a strategic way. So that is the first priority that we have. And the logistics situation and the feedstock situation is only compounding it. So our objective is that once we ensure that we are able to keep our customers satisfied well, I think I don't see any reason why, okay, we are not able to maintain this momentum in terms of the margins.

[Operator Instructions] Our next question is from the line of Rohan Gupta from Edelweiss.

Sir, a couple of questions. Sir, first is on our volumes on Specialty Chemicals. So if you see that it's almost fixated at almost 21,000 and 21,500 from last 4 quarters. Seeing that though the pandemic era still continues, but still I think Specialty Chemical as a product, as a basket has improved significantly, given the people focus on health and many hygiene factors. Somehow, it's not getting reflected in terms of absolute volume number. Do you see that is because of the external challenges like logistics and all? Or we are having some issues in terms of product approvals in the current pandemic era because of the restrictions on travel and because of those reasons, sir?

Yes, Rohan. as I just explained quite a few minutes back, the 2 issues. One is in terms of -- we -- obviously, in terms of the sort of plans we had, we had signed up on a project commissioning last year on Specialty Ingredients. Obviously, there is no delay. Having been commissioned, I think we would have been able to deliver better volumes, okay? So I don't -- we don't see an issue on the demand side. There can be some sort of volatility over 1 or 2 or 3 months, okay, but that is not -- because directionally, we see the demand situation to be robust. And the logistic scenario is only complicating it, because we need to cart out our Specialty Ingredients to -- mainly it is Europe, okay? It is LatAm, it is U.S. and it's Asia Pacific. And that obviously also is a concern in terms of how do we look at meeting the demands of our customers on time every time. So that's something. So we don't see issue with approvals getting delayed or whatever. It's because more of a supply side issue, both in terms of our projects not getting commissioned on time because of COVID wave 1 and wave 2 and the second is international logistics scenario has only compounded of that issue.

So sir, will we see the accumulation effect? I mean these are the short-term issues, definitely, if not today, maybe after 3 months or 6 months, these issues will be sorted out. And this supply side issues and logistics challenges will not remain forever. So will we see any kind of accumulation effect? Like as you said that the orders are coming and the clients are already coming and the products approval are already in place. So will -- can we expect that maybe in the next year or after 3 or 4 quarters when things normalize, do you see a bump-up jump in a Specialty Product basket, which can be roughly 15%, 20%, 30% kind of growth. Though I'm not looking for any guidance from you, but I'm just clearing my doubts that can we have those kind of opportunities going forward?

Yes, Rohan. So we would also want that to happen. So I only hope that happens. But -- and yes, okay, that's something that we can probably aspire for. But one issue that we have to be very careful, and that's what I explained a few minutes back also that it is important that I keep my customers' demand satisfied on time. That's one of the reasons why we are taking all sort of actions to ensure we keep them satisfied. Because one of the issues in Specialty Ingredients is that if your customer is not going to be getting material on time, my only worry is that they should not tomorrow saying that I'm not getting material, let me look at reformulating. Now that's a big risk that you run. So it is not that when the supply chain situation gets totally back to normal, okay, customers -- because they have to still manage their business til the time it is last, correct, in terms of the supply chain situation. So it's not a straight line answer that I can give you. But yes, as we see these sort of issues that have also happened, we continue to be confident in terms of the engage with the customers, to be able to reassure them and keep their interest alive in terms of all that we are doing. The customers certainly know that we are doing everything that we need to be investing in capacities, managing the extremely challenging logistic situation, the raw material situation. And yes, and that's something that we're doing pretty right with our customers. But if you have the logistics situation continuing this way -- because it is worsening by the week. And that's the only thing. And the best case situation for us is to -- what you said should happen. And we hope that best case situation pans out.

Okay. Sir, second question is on -- if you can just give some comments on Africa and Middle East, Turkey market, which was almost minus 6% for the current quarter. I believe in volume terms, it would have been almost minus 20%. So these were the market which has affected this Africa, Middle East, Turkey?

In fact, Africa, Middle East, Turkey was a very clear situation where the demand was there. We actually could not serve our customers well because of the logistics situation, constraining availability of feedstock into my plant in Egypt. It was severe. It started from January. It created a huge amount of issues in April, May, June, and my -- our plant in Egypt, okay, couldn't run fully. The situation is only now improving, say, the -- towards the end of last month. So -- but for that, I think our AMET volumes would have been much higher. So AMET volumes [indiscernible].

So AMET volumes are impacted mainly because of the logistics challenge and more so in Egypt market?

No, even in -- if I don't produce, I can't even serve [indiscernible] that key market. No, that's the issue.

See, logistics is an international problem. It is not just India or Egypt. It is international.

Even from Egypt, the availability of demand is incoming getting delayed, okay, is leading the issues in terms of my production not being interrupted. Second is by outgoing from Egypt. So if you look at Egypt into U.S., Egypt into Europe, the situation in terms of availability of containers, higher freight costs, okay, and availability of space on vessels continues. The issue remains same in Egypt as in India.

Okay. And sir, I -- because the situation should be signaled for everyone, all the suppliers. So in that case, I mean, the customers are taking a hit in terms of they are not able to get the product or we are seeing some risk in terms of their changing the supplier or the source?

See it's like this. The same thing I just -- the answer to your question is what will you do. From our sourcing side, if we are constrained in terms of availability of imported feedstock, then I would say okay, I'll localize if I can. If there's no opportunity to localize, okay, because these sort of things don't happen overnight. It needs to be in a very structured and a very proper way. So yes, there are some customers if they have a local source, logically, they'll go to a local source. If there is not a local source, they still depend on import source. They will go for that imports source which gives them certainty in terms of delivery, on-time delivery. So that's the way it is. So if I have an option for my feedstocks, I will localize them. In the current situation we can localize as much as we can, and wherever we are able to do it, we're doing it.

[Operator Instructions] We take a next question from the line of Dhruv from HDFC AMC.

Sir, following up with the Sanjesh question earlier. So if I do deduction of consol minus stand-alone and get the resulting number basically the subsidiaries Egypt and U.S., the EBITDA there seems to be consistently improving. And in context of your commentary that you were not able to meet demand, so I'm not able to reconcile that well. So what is -- what -- if you can help us understand it better.

So one is, say, if you look at our U.S. operations, that is not different because that is more focused to U.S. market majorly. And obviously, U.S. wasn't impacted majorly in terms of -- because they're majorly focused on market within U.S. and U.S., as you know, has been pretty robust in terms of the way the demand has been panning out. If you look at Egypt, okay, Egypt, despite the AMET -- because Egypt also gets into certain Specialty Care Products that they do and the mix has been much better, and that enabled them, okay, to be able to deliver a better EBITDA. Whereas as I looked at India, which I explained to Sanjesh on the stand-alone side, I explain as to what are the reasons as to why the numbers were impacted, both in terms of the extra costs we incur in terms of getting some intermediates imported, okay, to take care of our customer requirements because there are certain raw materials not available within India. And the enhanced freight costs, okay, that happened. And also the sort of volatile RM scenario. So it's a combination. And the Specialty Ingredients, I couldn't serve all the volumes that I could have served based on what the customer demand was.

Got it. Sir, and just focusing on the subsidiaries Egypt and U.S. So this is only not in this quarter that there is an improvement? There has been a consistent improvement over the last many, many quarters now. So if you can probably speak on what's changing there? Is it largely probably -- if it is driven by U.S. and is it [indiscernible] driver? So -- or any further thoughts on that?

See, as we have always said, particularly with respect to India and Egypt, there will be a progressive improvement in terms of the product mix, okay? So that will be an evolving scenario as we go forward. As far as the U.S. is concerned, it is almost largely Specialty Ingredients oriented, okay? So U.S., you can see it's a totally a Specialty Ingredient-oriented business, which we address from our U.S. subsidiary. And India and Egypt, they will be progressively evolving the improving scenario, where the ratio will go slowly upwards in terms of Specialty Ingredients. Yes.

Got it. Sure, sir. And sir, one question was on the -- you mentioned some part of the volumes you lost probably also because of the Specialty plant not coming up. So if I look at your -- some of your earlier comments, you used to say that we generally put up a plant when we have already reached 60%, 65% utilization and we plan for the next phase of CapEx. So isn't there a sufficient capacity within the existing Specialty plant? Or is it some specific product that you were not able to sell? Or I'm not sure what's the...

Very good question. And precisely, we initiated this CapEx almost 3.5 years back. And we were supposed to commission this particular plant in June of last year. Now that is really getting extended by a period of 1.5 years, so which means this delay has certainly cost us [indiscernible] with respect to servicing the Specialty Ingredients demand to -- for our worldwide customers. You're very right. We always anticipate and then take CapEx cost very much in advance. So we were able to certainly -- I mean, we have done that on time as far as Performance Ingredients is concerned. Whereas the Specialty Ingredients, as I said, we had initiated this project almost 3.5 years back. And we wanted to commission it in June of last year. But that has already got extended.

So basically see currently the Specialty will be operating at a very decent utilization?

Yes, yes. You're right.

And sir, the last question is on a per kg basis because I believe percentage margins are getting a bit abnormal because of the increase in raw material cost in numbers. So on a per kg basis on EBITDA, even as gross margin, which was highlighted earlier, we are doing still extremely well, probably ahead of our guidance INR 16,000 to INR 18,000. So again, if I reconcile with your commentary, is it something that -- there is also something abnormal gain, for example, you had some abnormal impacts like, for example, you were not able to ship or you're not able to produce. Was there also some abnormal gain which benefited us? Or there is nothing. It's just the cost. And as things normalize, we should be hoping for something better?

Yes. So there was -- I don't -- there's nothing called abnormal gains. It's a way that we manage the mix well. Okay. And second is, if you look at it moving forward, the whole issue is in terms our ability to meet the demand, supply chain constraints. And so that's why then we've always been cautiously optimistic and we guided to INR 16,000 to INR 18,000 from INR 15,000 to INR 17,000. And that's something we -- you probably want to look at sustaining at the higher end of the band and then we can look at taking it upwards. But as of now, we are very much -- we would like to very much stick to the 16,000 to 18,000 band.

[Operator Instructions] Our next question is from the line of Bharat Sheth from Quest Investment.

Sir, my question is pertaining to the kind of supply chain problem we are facing, and particularly in the specialty delay into our new plant coming in. So how does that affect our long-term relation with our customer? Because of which nonavailability they may be suffering. So if you can give some color, what are the response? And how do we really will be able to come out of this?

Yes. So customers, see, that is what sort of the relationship we enjoy with the customer, we engage with them. So they also are aware of what the situation is. And we've also shared with them what are the plans and how we're going to be ensuring that we are going to our plans in terms of getting the recurrence, but despite these constraints. So that's something we are well engaging with them and they've been fully briefed, and we don't see any issues on that front.

But do you think, longer term, I mean that can affect our relations because, in part, we are enjoying good relation because of our sustainable and timely supply to them. So which is missing since last 2, 3 quarters. So over a period, do you think that they may look for an alternate supplier or?

No, not exactly, because we supply...

Whatever customers seek is a transparent and open and timely communication, which is what we ensure that it does happen. We have a long relationship and our -- and these relationships are long term in nature and strategic in nature. There may be certain short-term blips or short-term uncertainties and pressures, but that doesn't impact the long-term relationships, okay? So what is important for us is how do we ensure that we keep our customers. And many times, we try to solve any issues together. I mean that is the what they -- there is the quality of the relationship that we enjoy. As a matter of fact, we discuss openly and many times customers come forward in terms of enabling us to come up with right solutions and acumen solutions, particularly with respect to the logistics and probably the challenges.

Okay. I do appreciate, sir. You -- long term, I understand, but can you elaborate a little bit more on the strategic thing what you are talking?

Yes, as I said, the strategic means that we talk about aspiring our business partners. Customers look at us in terms of their long-term business goals, okay? As I told you, we enjoy relationships with our customers anywhere from 10 to 40 years in the context of when the business or the relationship started. So there are some customers with whom our relationship goes back to 40 years. And there are some customers where the relationship goes back to 10 years. Now this relationship is built, not only as a supplier who can promise and ensure delivery on time, but more important, as a solution provider, as an innovation partner and as a business partner, okay? So this has been the characteristic of the relationship that we enjoy with various customers that we have, in various geographies. And the way we have grown with each other, both -- and with some of the customers, it is not only in India, but across the various locations in various parts of the world.

[Operator Instructions] Our next question is from the line of Ranjit Cirumalla from B&K Securities.

The question was more on the R&D and the new product launches. Recently, we seem to have launched the Galsoft SLL, which happens to be a complete biodegradable thing. So just wanted to get more sense about these products and the -- in slew of launches that are expected to happen over the next couple of years. And is this the direction that you are likely to take us for the non-green or the reducing the petchem kind of a portion in our product basket?

Yes. So that's obviously our R&D innovation efforts are all centered around. How do we make the product green also how we make the process green with reduced carbon emissions. And that is something which is at the heart of our innovation efforts. So if you look at the Galaxy Hearth, the solution that we have come up with pods and capsules for fabric wash is one in that direction. Alkyl is also one in that direction, and we have other products also that we launched. If you look at nontoxic preservatives, we look at your GLI 21. They're all -- they all emitted out of -- this clear this thing to provide green product solutions for customers. At the same time, whilst we do that, how do we ensure the process also is green in terms of the green domestic solutions. So that continues to be a very clear focus, and we do see the way the consumers also are wanting more and more greener products and solutions. We are well positioned to be able to partake in this sort of a trend that is emerging.

So consumers are driven by safety, wellness, sustainability, green and same as the case with customers. So as the world moves forward, we will see more and more products based on wholly plant-based ingredients, okay, and a slow substitution of petro-based products. And Galaxy's innovation is -- will be tuned towards this particular trend.

In fact, we have sent out our annual report for the last financial yesterday and the whole team is on ESG. That contains a good amount of details in terms of how we are approaching this subject on sustainability and innovation.

Yes.

Yes. We'll go through it. Lastly, if you also can give us some sense about the revenues that we currently have on these products and likely to aspire in the next couple of years.