Geberit AG (GEBN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Geberit Conference Call on the First Information of the year 2023. I am Sandra, the Chorus Call operator. [Operator Instructions] At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Christian Buhl, CEO. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you for the introduction, and good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to our full year sales conference call. We will first comment on our fourth quarter sales figures, then review our full year sales performance followed by our guidance for the operational and financial results in 2023 and finish with the market outlook for this year. Let me start by giving you some comments on the sales development in the last quarter. Net sales grew by 4% and reached CHF 694 million. The strong unfavorable currency development affected net sales negatively by CHF 28 million or minus 4%. In local currencies, group net sales grew by 8%. The growth was caused by a volume increase of around 6% and sales price increases of around 2%. The first volume growth since Q2 2022 was driven by a lower comparison base due to the strong wholesaler destocking in Q4 2022. Let me now comment on the sales development in local currencies of the regions and countries in the fourth quarter. In Europe, net sales increased by 7% with a positive development in almost all regions. The strongest markets with double-digit net sales growth were Eastern Europe, with plus 33% due to a weak previous year quarter, Italy EBIT plus 15% and Austria with plus 11%. Single-digit growth rates were recorded in Western Europe with plus 7%; Benelux with plus 5%; Germany, with plus 4% and Switzerland with plus 2%. Northern Europe was the only region in Europe with a net sales decline of minus 1%, driven by weak market in Sweden. Outside Europe, net sales increased strongly in Middle East Africa by plus 41% driven by the Gulf region, decrease in Far East Pacific by minus 1% due to weak sales in China, an increase in America by plus 11% benefiting from weak sales in the previous year's quarter. I continue with the sales development per product area in Q4, again in longer term. Installation & Flushing Systems and Piping Systems grew both by plus 11%, while Bathroom Systems increased net sales by plus 3%. The strong growth of Installation & Flushing Systems can be explained by a base effect due to the wholesale destocking in Q4 2022, while Piping Systems benefited from the success of our new supply piping system, FlowFit. The relatively weaker development of Bathroom Systems was driven by the soft demand for sanitary products in several European markets. We will now comment on the full year 2023 sales performance. Net Sales in Swiss francs decreased by 9% to [ CHF 3.08 billion ], negatively affected by strong currency effects. Negative currency effects led to a net sales loss of CHF 147 million or minus 4%. In local currencies, net sales decreased by minus 5%. This decline was caused by a volume contraction of around minus 13%, partially offset by sales price increases of around 8%. The strong volume contraction was caused by high volumes in the previous year and the destocking effect in 2023. Secondly, a decline in building construction market due to building cost inflation and increased interest rates; and thirdly, a decline in demand for sanitary renovation due to pull-forward effects during COVID-19 and heating-related renovations in selected European countries last year. Moving now to the net sales growth per region. Again, all growth figures refer to growth in local terms. Supported by a more favorable market environment compared to the rest of Europe, net sales grew by plus 2% in Italy and were stable in Western Europe. Net sales in Benelux declined by 2% and by 4% in Switzerland. In Northern Europe, net sales decreased by minus 6% with declining sales in most countries. Strong declines were recorded in Germany and Austria with minus 10% and minus 8%. Both countries were most affected by heating-related renovations last year. Eastern Europe recorded a decline of minus 9%, negatively affected by the exit from Russia and a strong base effect from the other Eastern European companies. Let me now turn to the regions outside Europe. In the Middle East and Africa region, net sales increased by 17%, driven by the Gulf. In America, net sales grew by 2%. And in Far East Pacific, net sales decreased by minus 4%, driven by China and Australia. Net sales in India grew double digit. Let me now comment on the sales development by product area, again in local currency. Installation of Flushing Systems and Bathroom Systems declined each by minus 6%, and Piping Systems by minus 2%. Piping Systems benefited from the strong growth of the already mentioned new supply piping system, FlowFit. Let me now comment on our guidance for our 2023 operational and financial results. The EBITDA margin for the full year is expected to be 30%. The full year tax rate in 2023 should be between 16% and 17% and CapEx is expected to be around CHF 200 million. Before I come to the outlook for this year, let me briefly update you on our share buyback program. In total, we bought back 493,000 shares for a total amount of CHF 238 million last year. This means that we distributed together with the dividend payment, CHF 662 million to shareholders in 2023. This corresponds to around 3.5% of the market capitalization of Geberit per end of the year. Let me now comment on our market outlook for 2024. We expect overall, again, a very challenging environment with an overall declining demand for building construction in our European markets this year due to the increased macroeconomic pressure and ongoing geopolitical risks. Let me start our market outlook with Europe. The increased building costs and interest rates over the last 2 years significantly dampened demand for building construction activities, especially in the new build sector. Building permits in Europe declined by around 20% in the first 9 months of 2023, mainly driven by the residential sector, leading to a contraction of the European new build construction business this year. The stronger decline of the new build sector is expected in Northern Europe and Germany. The most robust new build sector should be seen in Switzerland due to lower inflation and lower interest rates. Unlike the new build sector, we expect the renovation business in which we generate around 60% of our sales to be more robust mainly driven by the fundamental need for renovation in several European countries and no additional pressure from the shift from sanitary to heating solutions, mainly to heat pumps as experienced last year. Let me now turn to the regions outside Europe, where we expect a mixed picture for the building construction industry this year. We expect in seller markets, for example, in India, the Gulf region and Egypt, a strong demand. Other markets, for example, in China or in Australia will be in a decline, mainly driven by the residential sector. Despite the overall negative sentiment for the building construction industry, we expect several positive catalysts for the sanitary construction markets. For example, the expected interest rate cuts in the course of the year or in general and structural trend to better sanitary standards. Regardless of the challenging market environment this year, our overarching objective is to gain further market shares. To do so, we continue to stick to our 2 guiding principles: strategic stability and operational flexibility. The purpose of this principle remains to manage the volume uncertainties with a maximum of flexibility without harming the midterm potential of the business. Volume uncertainties emerged also from the unpredictable inventory strategies of wholesalers in the current market environment, where wholesalers reduced their inventory levels below normal levels. We intend to manage these volume uncertainties again with our operational flexibility. In line with our principle of strategic stability, we will focus on our strategic initiatives, as outlined at our Capital Markets Day last October. For example, the focus on [indiscernible] market, the further penetration of our piping system, FlowFit, or new product introductions, supporting several strategic growth initiatives. Furthermore, we will increase our expenditures for dedicated sales initiatives in emerging markets. For marketing efforts in the context of the launch of our new shower toilet, Alba, and our 150th anniversary this year and for investments in IT and Digitalization. In total, we will increase operational expenditures for these initiatives by the CHF 30 million in 2024. Let me now turn to our guidance for other key cost items this year. In terms of personnel costs, we expect a wage inflation of 5% to 6%. And for raw materials, we expect slightly lower price levels in Q1 compared to Q4 last year. As a consequence of the raw material price decline since March last year, we decided to keep our sales prices stable this year. Let me close our introduction with a short summary. 2023 was, in terms of volumes, the most difficult year since decades. Despite the historical volume contraction of minus 13%, we managed to increase our margins again. These results confirm our strong and consequent pricing management, our high operational flexibility and our cost discipline in a declining market environment. For 2024, we expect again a challenging market environment. However, we believe Geberit is very well prepared to also monitor the uncertainties emerging from this environment has already demonstrated several times during the past. Our confidence is based on our -- on the fundamental need for our products, our resilient strategy and business model and our long-term focus and track record. The above-mentioned additional operational expenditures of CHF 30 million this year in the downturn of the market are a testimony for our confidence into the undiminished midterm growth potential of our business. Thank you for your attention. We are now ready to answer your questions.

Our first question comes from Daniela Costa from Goldman Sachs.

Basically, I had 2 questions. The first one was just asking, it sounds like organically, there is a sequential pickup beyond just I guess you talked about easy comps, but do you see any signs of restocking normally, how early do wholesalers restock versus the leading indicators? And number two, this year, obviously, you had FlowFit, has something helping you? Do you have something in '24 in terms of product launches equivalent, maybe talking towards the CMD measures that you have announced?

With regards to the stock levels of wholesale in Q4, what we have heard from wholesalers that they kept their whole -- their inventory levels more or less stable. So no further destocking but also not -- also no restocking of their wholesale inventory levels. Second question is there are a couple of new products, which we will launch this year. We will talk about them in more detail at our full year results in March. But 2 examples. One is the new shower toilet, Alba, which we have also presented at the Capital Markets Day, the entry-level shower toilets, toilet for the European market. And secondly, we will launch a new SuperTube application for the European market. That's an application for the drainage pipe systems category, which will be an important growth driver for our pipe business. But there will be more innovation that we talk about that at the full year results.

The next question comes from Yves Brian Bromehead from Societe Generale.

I just wanted to know, could you actually already give us an indication of what was the January trading?

We don't want to talk about the January trading. These are our 10 trading days now, that's too short, and I thought we should not talk about this very volatile environment, that doesn't make sense.

No worries. Just maybe circling back to the previous question on Q4. Back when you talked about the trends of October, you actually mentioned there was a slight increase in organic growth. But the conclusion of Q4 is that there was probably a strong increase in November and December. So I just wanted to really understand what have you seen in November and December, which is different to what you saw in October?

Nothing specific to read into the dynamics within Q4. So I wouldn't -- we have not observed any specific observations between October, November or December, nothing special to note.

Okay. And maybe lastly on -- I know it's been early to talk about margins for '24, but you gave quite a few things here regarding wage inflation, marketing costs, but also you fleshed out the pricing being stable in '24. So should we assume that 2023 margins should come down in '24?

As you know, we will only provide a guidance for the margin with our H1 results. Therefore, I can't give an answer to this question.

But there is no cost-saving measures that you're doing to offset what you've provided today. Is that right?

No, that's -- last year, we don't have any cost saving programs in place. The keyword here is operational flexibility. That is what is important, but we have no specific top-down cost saving measures in place, not at all. On contrary, we've got to further invest into the business, as we said in our introduction, we want to extend in some of our operational expenditures here and not cut costs.

The next question comes from Martin Husler from ZKB.

Yes. The first one is why are you optimistic that the shift from heating to -- actually from sanitary to heating is slowing down for this year?

So that's -- what we are saying is we do not expect additional pressure from the shift because last year, obviously, there was a shift that led to negative pressure on our business, and we do not expect a further headwind from this trend. So that is what we are saying, that will continue this trend, obviously, but it be not worsen if you want to use this word compared to last year.

Okay. But is it the fact that in Germany, your most important market, the whole heating regulations last year led to kind of a postponement of installing heat pumps and probably this will be more than the case for this year, which then could kind of challenge this assumption that the heating will be slow down.

Yes. I think what was special last year, there was a high volatility within the quarters for heating solutions. So there was a strong first half of the year. Then we have [ Q3, ] again, it was very low. -- and Q4 was strong again. So this volatility -- that was a driver, which we believe will be more stable this year. And in average, more or less, it should be done what we have seen last year. But we don't know exactly what will happen. We don't have the crystal ball, obviously. But that is also what we have heard a little bit from our wholesaler that they expect a certain stabilization of this demand on a higher level, obviously, for heating solutions.

Okay. And maybe my second question to Germany. And obviously, the building permit situation was very weak, as you were mentioning. If you talk to wholesalers and installers in general, I mean how optimistic or what are their take for this year? Are they all very negative because of this new construction slowdown? And do you think that the renovation part, yes, it's more important for you, might compensate that downturn in new construction in general or would you expect overall construction market to be down?

So talking about Germany specifically, we do not believe that the renovation segment in Germany will compensate the decline in the new build sector in the German market. And secondly, that is also confirmed by the sentiment overall in Germany by plumbers, also by wholesalers, which is overall for the basic construction industry, more negative and not positive also for this year.

The next question comes from Yassine Touahri from On Field Investment Research.

Two questions. My first question would be on the outlook for volume. So you're suggesting that we could see a decline in volume of 20% in new build, which is 40% of your business. Does that mean that everything else being equal, we could see a 8% decline in volume in 2024? That would be my first question. And then my second question is on energy. What we see is that electricity costs are still coming down. Gas prices are quite low. Do you expect a positive impact of lower energy costs in 2024?

The first question, you're right. If you make the simple math that the volumes are down for new build by 20% and all the rest of renovation is stable, then obviously, volumes overall for the market will be down minus 8%, talking about the market. What will happen with our volumes, we do not give any outlook for that at this point in time, as you know we will get that only with H1 results. Obviously, we want to gain market share. The second question with regards to energy costs, we do not have a lot of visibility on the energy cost because we don't have any hedge part. So we are exposed fully to the spot prices. At the moment, the situation has stabilized, energy prices came down Q-on-Q. We don't know exactly what will happen into 2024. I can't give you a prediction here.

And at the current price, would you expect if prices remain where they are, would you expect a slightly positive impact?

Assuming that energy prices stay stable at the level where they are at the moment, they will be slightly below the average level of 2023.

The next question comes from Arnaud Lehmann from Bank of America.

My first question is a follow-up on the volume decline in 2023, the minus 13%. When you look back, are you able to give us an order of magnitude of what was the destocking and what was underlying markets to help us figure out what the upcoming impact the pressure on building permits?

What's the question when or...

The split is the minus 13% volume pressure -- do you know what was destocking and what was pressure in underlying markets?

No, unfortunately, we do not know. We can't split that. But fair share, obviously, was destocking, but we don't know exactly how much because we don't have any quantitative indication about the stocking levels of our sales. Sorry, I can't give you a more precise answer.

Okay. And my second question is on pricing. I think you're talking about stability for 2024. More specifically thinking of Bathroom Systems where you've had relatively weak sales, including in the fourth quarter. Energy, as you mentioned, is still relatively low. But do you see risk of a bit of price erosion in Bathroom Systems considering it's a somewhat more fragmented part of your business?

At the moment, we do not have any indications or do not see any risk that we would be forced to decrease prices in Bathroom Systems. So the short answer is no.

And a quick last one. For Piping Systems, do you give the share of FlowFit in the mix of sales?

Unfortunately, we do not provide this figure. I'm sorry, due to competitive reasons. But it is a substantial share of Piping Systems and especially a substantial share of Supply Piping Systems.

The next question comes from Christian Arnold from Stifel Schweiz.

First question on shower toilet. I recall correctly that this year '23, you have not grown with shower toilets on the back of high comps.

Correct.

So kind of flattish development.

It was a decline. It was a decline. But it's important compared to 2019 levels. Volumes were still substantially above 2019 level because we have, as you know, strongly benefited to COVID19 from this peak high volumes, we have been declining, but compared to 2029, sorry, compared to 2019, we are still substantially above this level.

Okay. Thinking about the Alba launch in probably in spring, would you expect double-digit growth again for '24 in that product category?

That's very hard to predict because, obviously, the market is even more important than our new shower toilet. And as you know, especially if we talk about sales, that Alba price was obviously lowered. So I don't want to forecast the volume development for shower toilet this year yet.

In the outlook comment, you talked about a more robust Switzerland with weak new construction in Northern Europe and Germany for this year. I think that is what you talked about new construction, right? Could also give us your view on the renovation where renovation would be stronger in which areas than in others?

This is very difficult because, as you know, we have much less or almost no indicators for the renovation business. So it's hard to have a clear view on that. I believe that maybe 1 or 2 markets which are convention due to specific regions. For example, Italy, we believe renovation should be maybe compared to other companies more robust or even better than other renovation sectors in other countries due to specific subsidy programs, maybe the same is true for France, where the renovation business is mainly better than in other countries. But apart from that, it's quite hard to give you a clear view because, as I said, there's a lack of indicators for the renovation business.

Okay. And the last question maybe on the strategic growth initiatives, which you presented at the Capital Market Day. And today, you were talking specifically about selected growth market or selected initiatives in selected growth markets outside of Europe. Could you give us here some more insight?

Yes, these are 2, 3 initiatives, which are concentrated in specific countries, for example, in Egypt or Saudi Arabia, where we are using the existing product portfolio, for example, SuperTube or also the newly launched Alpha Flushing Systems a couple of years ago to penetrate these markets better, basically by building up the sales force and also the marketing efforts in these 2 mentioned markets.

The next question comes from Martin Flueckiger from Kepler Cheuvreux.

I've got 2, and I'll start off with the expected impact from the new depreciation low for new builds in Germany, I think it's called [Foreign Language] in Germany. Could you elaborate a little bit on what your expectations are with regards to these changes in depreciation rules for newbuilds in Germany and whether you think it's going to have an impact on your business? That's my first question, and I'll follow up with the second one.

We do not expect that there is a material impact of this new regulation on our business.

Sorry, how come?

We do not expect that there is a material impact of this regulation on our business.

Okay. But from what I've been reading, there are commentators out there that believe that it could -- and of course, also based on the name of that new law that it could boost growth for new builds in Germany and still you don't think it's going to have an impact. So I'm wondering why.

One major reason is we do not focus very much on whatever regulators are doing or whatever subsidy products might come. Because it's also a risk for a company if you manage and have too much focus with your company on this regulation. As we have seen last year, for example, for the heating sector, which then drives maybe your wishes and your expectations and then it turns out to be completely different. Therefore, in general, we do not pay a lot of attention on whatever regulation is doing, be it in Germany and other markets. If there is a positive effect, we are happy to take it. But we are not focusing too much on this regulation.

Okay. Got it. And then my second question is on -- was a little bit quick for me. Sorry about that. It's a clarification question on what you've been talking about regarding these incremental OpEx of around CHF 30 million this year. Sorry, could you just repeat what you expect to -- on what you expect to spend this CHF 30 million on again, I think it was marketing and what else?

Yes. Maybe 3 elements. One, our growth initiatives in the emerging markets. The 2 examples I gave before, Egypt or Saudi Arabia, where we increased the sales force and then specific marketing efforts. The second one is general increase in marketing spending for 2 main topics. One is the introduction of Alba, where we want to increase our marketing efforts and also our 150th anniversary this year. Geberit will be 150 years old this year. Therefore, we will have a lot of customer events and also partner events to celebrate this 150th anniversary, obviously, this comes with costs. And the third element of this CHF 30 million is increased spending for IT and digitization.

The next question comes from Christoph Dolleschal from HSBC.

First of all, I start with a clarification on stable sales prices. So does that mean that your regular annual 1.5% price increase in April will not happen?

Correct.

Okay. Then the -- you also talked about Germany and renovation not being able to compensate new builds. Is that also an assumption that you would say would hold for the entire group, i.e., that in 2024, you don't think renovation will be able to compensate new builds?

I talked about the market in Germany, not about Geberit. But the same, I would say, is true for Europe as a whole. In Europe, new build is down 20%. Although new build be a little bit high -- maybe even a little higher share than Geberit, this will not be -- renovation will not be able to compensate minus 20% of new build.

Okay. And then basically, I mean, your outlook, at least from the renovation side looks smartly positive, as you've just said. And one of the triggers you are stating is an expectation of declining interest rates. I know that there's 1 million voices in the market, some arguing fast declines, others [indiscernible] decrease and so on and so forth. Just my question is like what is your underlying assumption interest rate cuts and also interest rate levels?

We don't have a clear view of that. As you said, there are many news out there. The only view we have that phase in the market view, which we shared that should happen interest rate cost this year. And that most probably will trigger hopefully some projects, maybe which are already prepared, which is ready for lower financing costs to then be implemented. But we don't have a specific interest rate curve for the year built into our model because we are not putting a lot of effort on this macroeconomic forecasting.

The next question comes from George Speak from BNP Paribas.

So just on the outlook and the pricing specifically, your comments are stable pricing, is that net of discounts and rebates? Or are those realized could pricing actually be down year-on-year? And then just in addition, can you quantify what the discounts and rebates were in 2023 and where those come through on the income statement?

So this means that we did not increase prices on a price list levels and we expect that we also are able to keep rebates and bonuses on the same level. In other words, we expect also the net price level that there should be no impact.

Okay. So net pricing is stable but not down?

That's what we expect. Yes, correct.

Okay. And then just one follow-up on some of the previous questions, just to make sure I'm clear. When you talk about robust demand and renovation, does that mean volumes up year-on-year?

No, not necessarily. Robust means that it's more robust than new build. Doesn't mean necessarily that the renovation sector. So whole in Europe is supposed to grow. It can be around 0, slightly below, maybe slightly plus, but definitely not as weak or not in a decline as new build. That is the meaning of the word robust.

The next question comes from Remo Rosenau from Helvetische Bank.

Yes. Thank you. And you mentioned that there has not been any restocking with wholesalers. At the same time, they also have not been any prebuying effects, right? Because as there are no price increases anywhere, there was no reason to prebuy. So because in some years, there have been sometimes pre-buying effects. So also no prebuying effect to your knowledge, right?

Correct.

Okay. Then the second question in Germany with the plumbers and installers, how long is the order backlog in terms of weeks by now according to my notes from a year ago, at that time, it was around 16, 17 weeks, has that also due to the heating from issue at the time which is abating right now. Has this come down by now? What is this backlog with plumbers?

It came down at the moment. The backlog is at 13.5 weeks, so roughly 15% lower than a year ago. That confirms what I said before, overall, there is a negative sentiment in the [ channel ] build and construction market.

Okay. And could you tell us what was the historical usual backlog in terms of weeks in normal times before we had COVID hit and all these problems?

I just can't remember 2 years ago, also in winter because there's always a seasonality to this number, 2 years ago, we [ were ] more or less at the same level as we are right now in terms of order backlog of plumbers. I can't remember '19, but it's pretty much sure that was lower pre-COVID this order backlog, than the 13.5 weeks at the moment.

So -- but that means that the activities of the plumbers were a bit higher than the underlying market demand.

Sorry. Can you repeat that?

Maybe order backlog is reusing, they work on old orders and less new orders come in. So the demand from the plumbers is basically a bit higher than the underlying demand in the market -- you know what I mean?

Yes, that might be associated also to the topic of the heating solution because, as I said before, that is not going away, obviously, that space in our assumption, at least on a similar level as what we have seen last year. There's a lot of volatility last year throughout the year. That might be a reason why the plumbers specifically have still more work to do compared to the channel based construction industry in Germany.

The next question comes from Patrick Rafaisz from UBS.

As follow-up on the piping business in Q4, I realize you don't want to comment on the size of the FlowFit business. But if we would exclude the penetration and share gains with FlowFit in Q4, would the growth at constant currency, would that have been more comparable to Bathroom Systems? Is that a fair assumption?

I want to do -- I don't -- didn't do the math to be honest, I didn't do the math. Sorry.

Okay. As follow-up, again, sorry for that, on pricing. All very clear, you said about 2024. Just one clarification. Is the assumption correct that there's no further carryover effects from prices in '23 into '24. So that's also 0.

This is correct. Because the last price increase, which we implemented was January 2023, with an extraordinary one, it pulls forward, so to say, the normal one. It was around 1.5%. Therefore, we do not expect any carryover for 2024. You're right.

Good. And the last question, just some thoughts on the 2024 margin. So you will not do any price increases, you will have additional OpEx for growth investments, but input costs will be coming down. Is -- are lower input costs netting out the 30% higher OpEx? Or if your margins will go up further, would you then just simply increase your OpEx spend to maintain margins within the 28% to 30% range? Is that the way to think about it? Or would you consider lowering prices to maintain the margin within the range?

So 2 answers. Number one is, if you talk about input costs, I guess you talk about raw material costs. If raw material costs would stay where they are at the moment, then we would have overall a positive effect because they will be lower in 2024 compared to the average of 2023. And the second thing is, we have a midterm margin guidance of 28% to 30%. It doesn't mean that this is the guidance for every single year, as you know. Midterm, we don't want to have margins above 30%. Whenever we see the potential, we want to take the money and invest it into the business. But this is not an indication, the 28% to 30% for our margin 2024. As usual, we will provide the guidance then in our H1 results for this.

The next question comes from [indiscernible] from Rowan Bodmer.

I have one on the material prices. How much share in do you see from lower energy and raw material prices? Can they compensate the wage inflation for the year '24?

Unfortunately, I can't give you a precise answer because we are not hedging raw material energy prices. So we are exposed to spot prices. We don't know obviously for this reason where the raw material prices will be overall in 2024. The only thing we know is more or less what happens in the next quarter, that will be slightly down. And [ with regard ] to energy, as I explained before, we do not hedge at all, so we are exposed to spot prices. Therefore, I can't tell you what -- if that will be possible to compensate wage inflation or not.

The next question comes from Christian Arnold Stifel Schweiz.

Yes. A follow-up on the pricing. You're guiding for stable pricing for '24, I think that's for the group, right? So thinking about the Swiss franc strength, is there a risk that you actually have to lower prices in Switzerland selectively?

So we also did a lot of increase prices or decrease prices in Switzerland for this year because what we did over the last 2 years, the price increases were lower compared to group to address the issue as you said rightly, with the currency. At the moment, we don't not see any pressure or risk to do any specific pricing actions in Switzerland.

Okay. And second question would be on the dividend. Back in 2009, I think you paid an ex [indiscernible] anniversary dividend. I think it was for 10 years of listing. Now you have 150 anniversary for Geberit. Can we have -- or can we expect another anniversary dividend?

Actually, it's the decision of the Board of Directors, obviously, but we did not have discussions around such a topic so far. To be honest, I don't think that's something like that will happen. We just see the number is important, obviously, where the dividend should be. But I don't think that we will take this 150 anniversary as an occasion to do something specific around the dividend. But it is the decision of the Board of Directors, obviously.

The next question comes from Stefanie Scholtysik from Mirabaud Securities.

You said that you are going to increase your OpEx, would you also expect an increase in CapEx due to the new shower toilet? Does this change anything on your CapEx plan? Or can we expect it to be around 5% for 2022 -- also 2024?

No, we expect CapEx to be stable at around CHF 200 million as last year.

Okay. And then maybe another question, but you're always increasing automation, but you're also increasing sales. Would you expect that your head count in absolute terms, would they stay the same for the next years or even come down?

That depends very much on the volume development. We have decreased, we have had last year substantially, basically driven by plants and logistics, where we decreased head count of temporary employees making -- and that was said by the volume. So that will depend on the volume development in 2024.

Gentlemen, so far there are no more questions from the phone.

There are no further questions. Thank you for the participation. We wish you all a great day. Goodbye.