Gem Diamonds Limited (GEMD) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Gem Diamonds' Full-Year Results Presentation for the year-ended 31 December, 2024. Our presenters today are Clifford Elphick, CEO of Gem Diamonds; Michael Michael, CFO; and Brandon de Bruin, COO. [Operator Instructions] I will now hand over to Clifford. Clifford?

Thank you. Good morning, everybody, and welcome to the presentation of Gem Diamonds' 2024 Annual Report and Accounts. I see we have Page 4 up on the screen. Just to remind you all that the disclaimer is on Page 2. And if you wouldn't mind reading that, please. So 2024 in review of summary, we've recovered 105,000 carats. That's sort of in the middle of the range of the carats, which we've recovered over the last 5 years. So, a pretty steady position. The dollar per carat achieved, which is obviously a focus area of close to $1,400 was a result that we were pleased with. We will talk about the state of the diamond market over the last few years. But in the face of all of the significant headwinds, that's a good result. And of course, that flows through into revenue of $154 million. Michael will go into detail in the income statement as to the EBITDA of nearly $30 million, which translates into earnings per share of just over $0.02. Net debt, an important number. We started the year at some $21 million, $22 million of net debt. That debt you will recall, we took on board in order to buy out the mining contractors' equipment and the balance of their contract. And pleasing that during the course of the year, we've been able to reduce that net debt from $21 million down -- $21 million, $22 million, down to $7 million. And obviously, our intention is to get to a point where debt is all extinguished. Going straight below that, the undrawn facilities that are available to us, some $70 million. Our decarbonization target in the middle of the bottom row. We're at 27% now, and our objective is to get to 30% by 2030. And I think I'm sure you'll all agree we are well on track to achieve that. On the bottom left-hand corner, our all injury frequency rate. This is a record for the company. It's 20-odd years of operations and this is a second record. Last year, we also achieved a record, although higher than this clearly. So, we're proud of that and there's a lot of focus and attention on that matter. If you turn over the page to Page 5 or move to Page 5, some comments on the diamond market, and this really refers back to the $1,390 per carat that we achieved on average for the sales of 105,000 carats. Last, 2024 was not a wonderful year from a global point of view, about 3% growth in the world. However, China, which had emerged as a very important diamond market remains in a state of torpor. It doesn't seem to get going. The property crisis in China is not resolved. And the fact is that Chinese buying of diamonds was particularly constrained. Interest rates remained higher for longer. There was -- if you will recall, at the beginning of 2024, we all had an expectation that interest rates would start dropping off. But unfortunately, that didn't happen. And feeding into the next point, the geopolitical tensions, the 2 important countries involved in wars, Israel and Russia, both important participants in the diamond industry. And of course, this has an effect on the diamond market. Consumer demand was negatively impacted because of lab-grown, in our opinion, and continued uncertainty as to what the distinction between the 2 products were. And of course, at that point, lots of political issues emerging, in particular, the election towards the back end of the year. And what became clear was that tariff war may emerge. And indeed, we're seeing that now happen. If we go into the middle column, what did that mean for the diamond market? Well, we continue to see throughout the year pressure on both rough and polished prices. It really was a tough year to be operating against this avalanche or this war of negativity and constant falling prices. However, both De Beers and Alrosa, to a lesser extent, but De Beers has taken quite aggressive action. They have significantly cut their production guidance in 2024, '25 and '26, and they have given their sightholders' options not to be forced as it were to take goods. And I think these things are now starting to work in the industry's favor. Some of the junior miners, Petra, Lucara, our sort of direct competitors, all had really tough years, substantial drops in revenue and profitability. And indeed, a number of the mines in Lesotho were unable to withstand the lower prices and have closed. Against that, we have seen some of the ultra-high-end luxury brands. I'm talking those brands in the Richemont stable, Van Cleef, those sorts of brands. Also in the Vuitton, LVMH Group, many of the ultra-high diamond brands reported sales increase despite drops in China. So it's an interesting position. And this has played through into the beginnings of 2025. January looked like a continuation of 2024. But we have seen very recently, and in particular, at the Hong Kong trade show, for the first time in years, Mainland Chinese buyers were attending the show and were showing interest to buy goods, not I might add at high prices, but nevertheless were looking to get back into the game. There were modest price increases in the polished, and we have seen similarly in the recent sales of rough in Angola, in Dubai, South Africa, that there have been price increases. And so that, as I would comment, is a sign of green shoots, hopefully, and that we see in the months to come that, that momentum shift is built upon and continues. I think there is a greater appreciation of the difference between lab-grown and natural emerging. It's not yet a clear cut, of course. And there is -- and lab-grown has taken a significant part of the first-time diamond buying market in the U.S., the most important market. But nevertheless, what we are seeing is good demand for our goods at decent prices and slightly better prices. Let's hope it's not a case of the first swallow only. We pushed quite hard to continue building on our relationships, particularly in the very high end of the market. Those brands that are increasingly needing to source goods in which they have 100% confidence of provenance, understanding the mines, the relationships with the communities, the country and the ability to tell a story around those goods. And we put a lot of effort into that. It takes a lot of time to build those relationships, but we've been at this now for a number of years, and we're starting to see some of that value being returned to the company in cash. We're starting to capture some of those revenues that we have been aiming at. I would pass on to Brandon to talk about sustainability and operations now.

Thank you, Clifford, and good morning. Overall, from a sustainability perspective, we've had an excellent year in 2024. And starting at safety, obviously, our obvious priority is zero harm. And I think we've gone a long way in driving that strategy. Our safety performance was excellent last year with 0 fatalities. And as Clifford mentioned, our all injury frequency rate is the lowest that we've seen on record throughout the group at 0.61, even lower than the record we had last year at 0.67. So, a good achievement all around at the operations, and our thanks go out to our management teams for driving safety as they do. We've also had no major or significant environmental incidents and no major or significant social incidents. Unfortunately, we did suffer 3 LTIs at our Letseng operation against 2 the previous year and our lost time injury frequency rate, you can see in the graph at the bottom right, increased to 0.18. That is a subject of 2 things. One, the 3 LTIs, but significantly influenced by the lower work -- manhours worked last year, which was 22% lower than 2023. So, that has an impact on the ratio. But overall, from a safety perspective, a good year all around. Moving on to the sustainability throughout the group. As Clifford mentioned, we're well on our way to achieving our Scope 1 and 2 carbon emissions target of 30% by 2030. And we based this against our 2021 baseline when we set the target. We're currently sitting at 27% down. And as I said, we are confident that we will reach that target of 30% quite soon. For interest, in terms of our Scope 1, 2 and 3 carbon emissions, we are down 32% for our overall carbon footprint since 2021. Our CSI projects are important to us and focused again on education, infrastructure and SME development. We continued our tertiary scholarships. We provided significant water infrastructure to 5 villages, including boreholes, standpipes and ensuring potable water. And we continue to support our existing SME projects that we have in the program. We also offered significant employment to our project-affected communities through casual labor and ensuring that we give opportunities of employment at our operations to those communities. I'm pleased to report an update on our bioremediation plant. We had it fully commissioned in Q1 last year and the efficiency of reducing nitrates is proving extremely effective, and we'll continue working to ensure that we increase the volumes that are treated through that plant. Our tailings facilities are extremely well managed and in very good condition. And we have aligned ourselves to the global industry -- global industry standards on tailings management, the GISTM, and all good things to report with regards to our tailings facilities. Again, in terms of our environmental impact and health and safety management, we retained our ISO 14001 and 45001 certification, and we've kept these certifications since introduction in 2018. We also retained our FTSE4Good status. And in terms of our UN SDGs, we have integrated 8 adopted SDGs, and we are currently working on a gap analysis to ensure that what we do throughout the business and throughout our operations, and in particular, CSRI that we integrate these SDGs into the way we operate. Flipping over to operations review for the year. From an overall perspective, we continued a strong focus on our operational efficiencies and cost containment. And I think we're seeing a lot of benefit coming through from the last 4 years to 5 years of focus on that. We had a very positive year operationally from mine waste treatment, ore treatment, carats recovered. But I think there were some important changes that we did at the end of 2023 and in 2024 that have driven even further control cost benefits and efficiencies throughout the operations. Those in particular, I'm referring to the in-sourcing of our mining operations at the end of 2023, which was seamless. And I think, again, thanks to our management teams for managing that without a 1 day lost in terms of production. And I think that has really worked well for us throughout the year. Later in the year, at the end of November, beginning of December, we in-sourced our treatment operations at Letseng and again, a seamless transition to in-sourcing that functionality. And we're starting to see a lot of increased control, operational efficiencies and cost benefits filtering through, and we hope to see the fruits of that in 2025 as well. From a waste mine perspective, you'll see a significant reduction in our waste mined. That is all in line with our mine plan and our continuous short-term optimization of mine planning throughout the year for 2 reasons. One, in terms of our cost containment in current market conditions and also through optimization of the mine plan and finding every opportunity to do as little mine wasting -- waste mining as possible. Our fleet management system has been improved, and we're seeing certainly the benefits through our productivity and availability and utilization of the equipment that we took over from MGC at the end of 2023. Ore mined is pretty standard. We kept it at 5 million tonnes. Our strategy to slow down the plant feed continues. And we've certainly seen improved plant stability and overall utilization increasing significantly as well. That has filtered into our good carat recovery last year, and I'll touch on that on the next slide. But there was also a very good work done on our recovery and sorthouse upgrades, and that was also completed end of last year and with no impact on production. Continuing with our carats recovered, as Clifford mentioned, at 105,000 carats, we are slightly down from last year at 110,000. That is certainly in line with our grade expectations of ore mix that was treated during the year. And in fact, our recovery on that ore mix was slightly more positive than expectations. Our lower ore contribution from Satellite Pipe last year also impacted grade in carats. The Satellite Pipe is a higher grade and higher value than Main Pipe. So, certainly that impacted the carats recovered throughout the year. I'm pleased to say, and we've announced a lot of them last year that we recovered 13 plus 100 carat diamonds and our frequency of large diamond recoveries is certainly in line with our overall average other than the 60 to 100 carats, which we saw a slight deficit last year. But overall, certainly, our greater than 10 carat diamonds is in line with the year before and with our full year -- sorry, our full-year averages for the 2008 to 2024. Flipping over to our updated mine plan. Just to update the market, we are implementing our plan that we published last year December, which was in line with the improvements that we found in the satellite pipe to steepen up the slopes. You'll see on the black dotted line was our previous waste profile. That has now decreased significantly to the new plan, which is certainly a cost benefit over the life of mine. The reduction of about 66 million tonnes of waste equates to approximately $180 million to $200 million of savings from waste stripping. We continue to look at our mine plan and our long-term mine plan in particular, especially in current market and economic conditions. And this year, we are focusing on Main Pipe and seeing how we can optimize that and ensure that we keep margins, and we will be looking at that during the course of the year. And we also are looking at extending the life of the current cutback in the Satellite Pipe and trying to bring as much satellite ore forward as we can over the next 6 months to 12 months. And we'll be building that into our plan should the opportunities arise. With that, I'll hand back to Clifford to talk to the sales and marketing. Clifford?

Thank you. I've mentioned the price achieved average dollar per carat. And if you look at the set of graphs below on the bottom left-hand corner, you'll see the constant reduction in dollar per carat, the reduction in prices that I've referred to before been very tough managing against this loss of revenue for the product. As you know, we're a price taker. Our goods are sold on a tender. And therefore, it has really been tough managing against this. But we have focused relentlessly on costs, and Michael will talk about that against the inevitable inflationary increases in prices of our expense items. But I think I hope and it appears to be the case that prices have started to bottom out on a like-for-like basis. And hopefully, the early signs of price improvement is going to hold. Other important point is the pie chart on the right-hand side, and it's about 80% of our revenue is provided by large diamonds in this business. 80% of our revenue comes from 20% of our diamonds. It's always been that sort of number, slightly up, slightly down. We've got -- in the bullet points above, we've got a number of quite significant diamonds, which were sold for good prices. And if you turn over the page to Page 14, you will see some of these diamonds. And this is really high-quality material, the best quality material in the industry. And that is what our customers are after. It's this really magnificent D color -- top D color goods. The top right photograph of 172 carat, you will see there, there's some breakage and breakage is a constant problem in all diamond mining companies, but particularly ours where our focus is on very large goods because breakage has a significant impact on overall value. We do focus on this a lot. We've made quite a significant improvement over time, but we're not completely out of it just because of the nature of drill and blast, load and haul, crushing circuits first stage, second stage, third stage crushing and DMS pumping. So it's not a perfect way to recover diamonds of this nature. But nevertheless, we have made good progress. Over to Michael to take us through the back end of the presentation and the important income statement.

Thanks, Clifford, and good morning to everyone. As mentioned, our dollar per carat ended the year at $1,390 a carat. That was some 5% up from the prior year of $1,334 in a challenging diamond market. The increase, I suppose, was contributed by some better quality production that Brandon alluded to earlier. Carats sold was 109,967 carats versus 104,250 (sic) [ 104,520 ]. So again, a 5% increase in volume. And that resulted in an overall 10% increase in our revenue at -- bringing that up to $154.2 million. Royalty and selling costs, to remind everybody, there is a 10% royalty payable on rough diamond sales payable to the government of Lesotho, and that naturally increases as our revenue increases. There was a slight increase to $16.5 million. And included in there is the sales and marketing costs we incur in Belgium to tender and sell our diamonds. Cost of sales was down slightly. I'll go into more details into the breakdown of the cost of sales. There is various cost -- cash cost elements and accounting non-cash adjustments. And I'll go into that in more detail on the next slide. Corporate expenses, again, a focus area for us, and we've managed to keep that flat, notwithstanding a 6% roughly inflation rate in South Africa and some 2% to 3% in the U.K. So, keeping that cost flat was pleasing as well. All of that flows through to our underlying EBITDA, which almost doubled from last year up to $29.7 million and predominantly generated through the increase in revenue, which flows through at this stage directly to EBITDA. Depreciation and mining asset amortization, that increased to $11.4 million from $7.3 million last year. The major impact of the increase was driven by the additional fleet and the mining in-sourcing we undertook in December 2023. And as a result, we had additional depreciation for that fleet that we had acquired. Other operating costs of just under $1 million represents the net costs associated with managing the Ghaghoo operation. We are in final process to relinquish and hand over the site and it's subject to some final approvals. But at this stage, those costs, net of some rehabilitation savings that we were able to implement, has resulted in a net cost of just under $1 million for the year. Net finance costs, $6.5 million. That includes income interest received on our accounts of just under $1 million. Cash funding costs of $5.3 million on our debt and some non-cash rehabilitation adjustments of just under $2 million, bringing that cost to $6.5 million. That was obviously higher during the course of the year in terms of our debt funding. And that has decreased over the year, and therefore, we had additional costs in the beginning of the year as that balance reduced. Non-cash items of $0.6 million is a net income of $0.6 million. Included in there is a foreign exchange gain of just under $1.1 million and then our share-based payment cost of just under $500,000, giving us a net of $600,000 income. Profit for the year nearly doubled again to $11.5 million. And after taking income tax of $3.4 million, we ended up at a profit after tax of $8.1 million. The effective income tax rate for the year was 29.5%. And again, just to remind everyone that the government tax rate or the statutory tax rate for Lesotho is 25%, and we have some non-deferred tax debits that we do not account for. And as a result, we've got a slight increase in our effective rate. Non-controlling interest represents 30% of the Letseng's profits and is allocated to the government of Lesotho who own 30% of the asset, leaving us with an attributable profit of $2.9 million. And taking into account just under 140 million shares in issue, we ended up with an earnings per share of $0.021 per share. If we look at the unit cost analysis, ore tonnes treated were 5 million tonnes for both years, so fairly consistent. Our total direct cash costs decreased to 252 Maloti a tonne from 288 Maloti a tonne, down 13%. And that in gross value equates to $183 million or $9.9 million reduction in costs. There were some efficiencies in energy costs. There was a change in the Eskom power availability during the year. So, we had an increase of some 60% in Eskom power availability, which has increased that cost. But to the -- on the opposite side, we've had a reduction in diesel requirements in both the treatment plant for less -- as a result of less load shedding and due to lower volumes of waste mining. So overall, our energy costs have reduced to 56 Maloti a tonne per tonne treated, down from 77 Maloti a tonne if we look at it on an overall cost basis. Non-cash accounting charges, that relates to the waste amortization, any stockpile and inventory adjustments and any interest and depreciation on the accounting of IFRS 16 leases. And that has resulted in an increase in our costs compared to the prior year up to 113 Maloti per tonne. That brings our total operating cost to 366 Maloti a tonne, which equates to the $100 million cost of sales we see in the income statement. At an average exchange rate of 18.34, we've ended up at a total cost of just under $20 a tonne on an all-in accounting cost for the year. If we look at waste tonnes separately, there was a decrease of 39% in the volume of tonnes from 8.8 million down to 5.4 and waste cash cost per tonne waste tonne mined dropped by 6% to 61.87 Maloti. That's notwithstanding local inflation and the reduction of volumes, which usually has a significant negative impact on unit costs. And I think that is a direct verification of the savings we are achieving now on owner mining versus having that contractor base in prior years. Again, on dollar terms, it turns out to $3.37 per tonne of waste tonne mined. But if we look at costs overall and look at the business where it stands at the moment, operating costs have dropped from just over 2 billion Maloti for the year in 2023 down to 1.6 billion Maloti. That's a 451 million Maloti saving or equating to a $23.5 million saving in terms of our cash cost position. We also look at cost per carat. I think that's an important factor for us to look, as we understand our dollar per carat we're achieving and therefore, can understand the margins that we're able to make. Looking at 2023, our overall cost per carat in local currency was 18,500 Maloti per carat or $1,004 per carat. There's an 18% increase in 2024 as we dropped our cost to $1.6 billion for 105,000 carats equating to 15,285 Maloti a tonne, which equates to $831 per carat. If I move over to the financial position. A few points I'd like to highlight there under income tax receivable on the top end of total assets, $3.7 million. Because we acquired the fleet in the prior year, we weren't in a tax paying position and any provisional taxes were therefore refunded and pleased to confirm that, that was refunded during the course of 2024. On the interest-bearing loans, just below the total equity there, you will see our debt is $21 million. That's reduced from $38.6 million. Clifford spoke about the overall reduction that we've managed to get throughout the year. Just to highlight, that included in the $21 million is a $10.6 million liability for the fleet that we managed to refinance during the year and restructure our revolving credit facilities to be able to repay those and have a more suitable debt structure allocated to the fleet. And then there is a $7 million liability related to the primary crushing area that was implemented a couple of years ago, and we've got that debt rolling down at the moment. And included in there is a $4.4 million short-term overdraft that we've utilized at year-end. But to confirm that we've had no use or a full availability of our revolving credit facilities was on hand at the end of the year for the Letseng available funds. Current liabilities is $11.7 million. You'll see it's significantly down from $23.3 million last year. And a big portion of that related to the final payment that we had to make on the purchase of the fleet. So, that has been cleared out of our system. And then the last item to highlight there is $6.8 million income tax payable, which will be payable in March as a result of the profits we've generated this year and the tax that is only due at the end of March. On the next slide, I'd just like to talk to our cash management. We're pleased to announce that we managed to extend our revolving credit facilities, which were due to expire at the end of 2024, and we managed to roll those over for a further 2 years until December 2026. The group cash is $12.9 million, and our net debt is $7.3 million, as we mentioned before, leaving us available facilities of $69 million. Just to run through our waterfall, starting the year with the available cash of $70 million that Letseng generated, $77 million of cash. We had the income tax refund that I mentioned previously. We invested $22 million into the waste mining, which is the 5.4 million tonnes we saw earlier as well. Net financial liabilities of $22 million was the movement in our overall facilities during the period. Working capital reduced by $16 million. Again, that was predominantly driven by the repayment of the outstanding obligations to finalize the fleet acquisition. Investment in PPE includes the upgrade of the recovery and sorthouse facilities that Brandon mentioned earlier, a new stores management system. We've got better controls now on our consumable management, and that was implemented during the year and then some expenditure on the residue storage facility as part of the extension of the life of mine. Dividends to NCIs of $4 million, that relates to a dividend we declared from Letseng to the corporate structure. And when we declare dividends, we have to pay the minority or the government the 30% portion and that relates to that dividend flow, which is an outflow of cash from the group. And then the last slide. On last slide here, Slide 20, we've just reiterated the 2024 guidance for Letseng. There's been no change to that what was presented in December when we presented the new mine plan. And we obviously continue to monitor and look at how we improve and bring in efficiencies. But at this stage, we will keep our 2024 guidance in the same position. And then I'm just going to hand back to Clifford to talk to the 2025 focus areas.

Thank you, Mike. This is on Page 22. So under the first column of extracting maximum value, this has been a very long process. We've pushed extremely hard, cutting costs where we can, optimizing and making efficiencies, whether it's big issues like the mine plan, whether it's smaller issues scrubbing contracts. We've really moved hard to take any inefficiencies out of the business. And that really has delivered consistently over time, good results, and we will keep doing that. Working responsibly, obviously, in a country where there were 4 diamond mines operating and there is now effectively only one, we stick out like a sore thumb. And there is a lot of focus and attention on us, and we need to keep our star shining bright as it were. There are opportunities, which come our way as a result of being the flag bearer, the flag waiver. And so we really pay particular attention to this. Preparing for the future in an environment of negative pricing pressures, the first thing to do is to make sure you survive and then are in good health to last and then expand. I think we've done the first part. We've survived. We're in very good shape. And now it's a case of lifting our eyes somewhat and thinking what do we do in terms of the longer-term plans for this ore body and then how do we extend our capabilities further. There is nothing at the moment that we are working on in a very focused way. No acquisitions. No major issues. But of course, as you would imagine, from time to time, some quite interesting things come across our table and we look at them. The balance sheet such as ours at the moment does not allow us to do any really big and imaginative things. And so that's not really what I'm talking about here. We are cautious. We are concerned to husband and protect our position. And we really focus on our own backyard and what it is that we can do to improve the economics and the returns on our particular patch as it were. We're proud of the fact that we have managed to have a year where we produce a bottom line profit. And I think we stand out when compared to other companies in the industry, both large and small. So with those comments, I'd like to go to questions and we have them here.

First question is, if you are able to extend mining at Satellite Cut 5 West into the second half of 2025 and '26, how would this impact the timing of first ore mining at Satellite Cut 6 West?

Yes. Thanks, Clifford. [ Duncan ], in terms of the extending the life of Cut 5 West, it will have an impact on the start of waste mining of Cut 6 West. So, you're quite right there. We will continue in the meantime with the support regime that we're putting in place for Cut 6 West above the starting point. So that won't be impacted from a timing perspective, and we can manage that. If we drive the extension of Cut 5 West and we bring Satellite ore forward, it will have an impact of our starting time, that is now. We're working on that to see how much and whether our dropdown rates can be worked on as well. But I think sort of worst-case scenario, it may push out the start of waste mining by up to sort of 8 months to 12 months on Cut 6 West.

Okay. Then the next question is, what is the current size limit of lab-grown diamonds and is this going to continue to increase? It's a question of economics and the economics are interesting. Most of the -- you would have seen that lab-grown diamond prices paid by the market have been in free fall -- at a greater rate of free fall than natural and that those prices are now down to, for example, at the bottom end of lab-grown. People are buying lab-grown in sort of free markets for $35 a carat. And that is the cost, frankly, of polishing lab-grown. And so I think that certainly at the bottom end and the smaller producers, many of them are going out of business. There are a number of bankruptcies, and there are issues. I mean, you may have seen in New York, somebody was jailed last week, the week before for passing off lab-grown as natural. So, I think pressures on the lab-grown are growing in terms of that point. As far as the technology and how large they can grow, my assumption would be, all things technical, they improve over time, that they will -- there's no -- I can't give you an accurate size limit. I know that quite a large lab-grown was made and polished. But the producer of that diamond, somebody that I know and spoke to said, look, they didn't make any money on it because the cost to make it was greater than the price that they could achieve. But they were just trying to push the envelope and see at what point did it trip over into losses from essentially a factory process. Yes. Okay. Those are those questions. Any other questions, please, if you would put them up on the board for us to address. I don't see any other questions, but let's just hang on a while. Perhaps you reaching for your mice. Any dividends planned or buybacks? I think the answer to that is the Board discusses this at every term wants to see if it makes sense from the company's financial resources point of view, we would love to pay dividends. And of course, the corporate finance advice in respect of the advantages or lack thereof of buybacks is something, which we are all extremely fay with. The reality is that in a scenario such as we have laid out to you in our financial statements, we do not have an embarrassment of riches and we are not in a position on these results to pay a dividend. It's also not clear what the trajectory is in terms of diamond price. I did comment at length about the fact that there are green shoots emerging and that is hopeful, but we can't say that the first swallow is the indicator of some. We need to see that this is maintained. There could be an argument that De Beers sitting on substantial stockpiles of hoarded goods could drive prices down with some inconsiderate action by them, I mean, inconsiderate for us and the rest of the industry. So indeed, this is something we look at very seriously. We are also, many of us in management are shareholders, some more significant than others, but dividends are something that we would like and a rising share price is obviously important. So the answer to this question right now is we're not in a position to do it. But as soon as we are, we will. Right. It doesn't look like there are any more questions. I'll just wait another minute or 2. As always, if anybody has a question which they would not like to be out in the public forum and would like to contact any of us, Mike, Brandon or myself, please feel free to do so. Kiki's e-mail address is there or you have our -- most of you have our telephone, mobile phone numbers. So, happy to take any questions. [ Rod Williams ] asked where did the Sustainable shares go? We ourselves have asked the question. We haven't received any TR1 forms to identify who the shareholder or shareholders are. We have an idea, but we can't be absolutely certain because there have been no formal declarations. It appears that those shares have been spread in the market quite widely. And so I'm afraid that's the best answer I can give you. Sustainable were selling their shares for quite a long period. And then in the end, it appeared that the sale was quite well managed as far as the market is concerned and the company is concerned. But as I say, to reiterate, we as a company have not received any declarations as to where the shares have gone, which would be required above a certain threshold. Right. I think we can now bring the matter to an end, unless there are any more questions anybody would like to post.

So, Clifford, looks like there's no further questions, so we can close the presentation, and thank you, everyone, for the attendance.

Okay. Thank you, everybody. And just to reiterate, please don't hesitate to get in touch if there's anything that we haven't covered to your satisfaction or you would like some more detail. Thank you very much, everybody, for being here.