General Motors Company (GM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Well, welcome back, everybody, to our afternoon sessions here. We're very happy to have General Motors up next. It's a company that recognized the evolution of the industry long before others, took action to rationalize its core business to drive higher profits, to reinvest and feed its future business opportunities like Cruise and the Ultium platform as well as leverage the growth and innovation group that is actually leading to new adjacent business opportunities like BrightDrop that leverage GM's core. It sounds like a little bit of a circular reference, and it is because the core of GM is funding the future, and they're doing a great job in that circular reference opportunity and really pushing forward much better than any other company is out there, at least in our opinion. Today, from GM, we are very happy to have Paul Jacobson, GM's new CFO, who comes to us from a long career at Delta, where he was also CFO. Thanks for joining us today, Paul. We really appreciate the time and appreciate you coming to our auto summit.

Well, thanks, John. It's an honor to be here, and appreciate the time we'll spend together.

Well, we look forward to doing this again in person sometime soon. But the virtual world will have to work for now. So Paul, one of the big questions that we get from investors is you're newer to the story. You're coming to GM from Delta. I'm just curious how the transition is going. And really because you've seen stuff outside, a lot of stuff outside the auto industry, as you look at the opportunity set for business development at GM versus maybe Delta or other industries, how do you kind of stack it up now and potentially even in the future as things are changing in the industry?

Well, first, let me say that it's -- today, I think I'll wrap up officially 4 months on the job, which have gone by really, really fast, as you might imagine. And the people at General Motors have been so incredibly welcoming as well as you and others in the analyst community and really excited about the task in front of us. When I thought about this opportunity and what lies ahead, I think there are some pretty interesting parallels to the last sort of decade in the airline industry. You've got 2 pretty capitally intensive businesses, lots of regulation and a history that has largely been relegated to a mature industry that doesn't have a lot of growth potential to it. And that's the historical lens by which people viewed it. And I think at Delta, one of the things that we were able to do, which I was humbled to be a part of, was really kind of reinvent the company within that mature industry. Their travel driving revenue premiums, expanding a network, et cetera. And while I think the development opportunities are different at General Motors, obviously, being a manufacturer versus [indiscernible], I think the parallels of GM reinventing itself, putting the customer the focus of everything that we do, and you combine that with the platform that EVs and the technology play that automobiles can do, and what you see is an opportunity for the company to transform itself within an industry that's also transforming. So you think about the evolution of autos moving from a traditional sort of mature product-type cycle to really reemerging as a growth-oriented company in a growth industry because of all the connected services and the technology that the vehicles bring. So I think there's a real opportunity here for GM to leverage everything that we're really, really good at. We're world-class in manufacturing, world-class in engineering. We've got scale like no other. And I think bringing that to this new sort of reinvented growth industry has a lot of promise for us and a lot of opportunities ahead.

So there's a lot of debate about what's going on with EVs versus ICE in the investment community really and everywhere, right? It's not just the investment community. It's in industry. It's in the public and it's in the government forum. But there's a lot of push to say, hey, listen, your EV business, which seems to be progressing very well and has got a lot of potential should be spun off. Now I kind of think it's a little bit silly, considering that, that's the core of the company -- core to the company's future, right, and its product. But there is maybe the potential to think about separating assets and maybe spinning off something like the ICE assets, right, and saying, "Hey, we're now a more pure-play EV/AV future mobility company." And in reality, these ICE products we're buying from a company over here. And there's been some history of doing stuff like this with Delphi in '99 on the parts -- on the other part side of the business. How do you think about strategically balancing the company and what assets are core to the future? What could you theoretically think about strategically rebalancing in the company? And does sort of -- this consensus view, well, maybe you should spin-off the EV business make any sense. Long-winded question, but there's a lot to think about.

Yes. And I appreciate that question. And you're right, we get asked that quite a bit out on the road as well. But I think what we've got to do is we've got to take a step back and understand the EVs and ICE vehicles aren't fundamentally that different, right? The differences train, and it's got more connected services attached to it in the digital world going forward. So there's a way to interact with customers at a different level. But many of the same skills and capabilities that have made us so successful in the ICE space are also going to make us successful in EV. So when you think about -- I think the number is between 70% and 80% commonality of parts and components between the 2 vehicles, there's a lot of scale to be had. And I think when you add that to the challenge that we have from sort of our inheritance of who we are is that we don't have the same access the way many of the startups do that are being viewed as more of a tech company. I think we'll earn our way there over time. But the reality is we do have to earn that, and we have to [indiscernible]. So when I think about where we are as an industry, we're really at an inflection point. I think that's true. And when that turns into a tipping point of EVs over ICE vehicles as preferred by the majority of consumers, there's a lot of debate as to when that's going to happen. Some people think it's imminent. Some people think it's going to take a little bit longer. And I think, clearly, we see out of the President's infrastructure proposal today, government trying to push and help with infrastructure investment to help affect that sooner rather than later. But when I think about where we are, I love the hand that we're holding because if you think that EVs are going to reach a tipping point in the next 3 to 4 years, we've got a portfolio of 30 EVs and they're coming to market by 2025, and we expect to be up to 1 million vehicles annually by then and certainly hoping that, that adoption comes sooner than that, too. Or if you think that it's going to take a little bit longer for consumers to get there and not just make it an additional car but make it their primary source of transformation is when we really hit the consumer inflection point, if that takes a little bit longer to do, we have the cash flows of the ICE portfolio to help fund this transition. So when we think about the competitive landscape, that low-cost access to capital, the growth companies and the tech companies that are viewed that way, have our source of that capital is the ongoing cash generation of the ICE portfolio. So I think we are reliant on that in the short run, and we have to think about that. But one of the things that I've tasked the team with and Mary and I share in this vision, and we'll be communicating more about this later this year is how do we define success for ourselves? What does that transformation look like, whether it's EVs or it's all these businesses that we're starting up, let's define success for the investors so that we can actually show the amount of growth that we think is possible in all these businesses and how it aggregates in the fundamental cash performance for the organization. And then how do we put the mile markers out there that show that progression. So I never say never about anything because I think we need to keep an open mind about how this transformation is going. But when you look at all of the tools at our disposal and all the synergies that are staying together, I think that's the framework that anybody holds right now.

Got it. And the competitive landscape around EVs is shifting with some new entrants. And I mean, as you mentioned, they have access to a lot of capital, fairly low cost. So I mean, how do you think about that over time? And arguably, some of them are shaping up and realizing that pickups and commercial vans or commercial pickups are real area of high profit, so they're actually figuring it out and coming after some of your key profit centers. I mean, how do you think about that new competition? How do you box them out? And I know you probably don't want to comment on anybody specifically, but how many -- how seriously do you take this new competition versus some of your traditional players that are going to be -- remain competitive like you will over time?

Yes. No, look, I'm a big fan of competition. I think it makes everybody better. Without a doubt, I certainly think that some of our competitors in this space have made us better and helped us to lean in more aggressively than otherwise we might have, with the success that they've seen over time. I think my naive view just 4 months in, is that this industry, because of the capital intensity because of the design times and the time to market to set up a supply chain to manufacture a vehicle and get all the processes right, is a scale business, and it will always be a scale business. And I think when you look at the tools that we have, ultimately, the number of vehicles that we can bring to market across all price points, and that's why we keep saying everybody in, and we want to make sure we have product offerings across the space. I think you see a lot of boutique startups that are targeting one piece of the market. It's going to be harder for them to compete when the legacies are putting multiple products in the category, the way we have historically and different trim levels because it's that complexity, it's that customization that really comes with the scale and the manufacturing expertise of doing what we do millions of times a year over and over and over again. So I think it's healthy. I think it's good. But ultimately, I think we and our brands and our scale went out over the end, but we've got to keep challenging ourselves. This is why we can't let up. This is why we're all in. This is why at the end of the day, I think we're no longer answering the question of when will ICE vehicle production stop. We've said, look, we're putting an aggressive goal out there of stopping that by 2035, it changes the nature of the questions and add some urgency to the table because I think it's -- I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that the transformation to EVs is [ existential ] for the automotive industry. It's coming, and we have to embrace that.

Okay. Another question that I think many people are coming to the realization on is, GM has been a great incubator of businesses over time, with the innovation and growth group. I mean, I think it's becoming maybe a little bit more front and center and identified to some investors and people out there. As you look at the new business opportunities that leverage GM's core, what are the opportunities that kind of excite you the most, maybe have the most opportunity? And maybe they're separable, maybe they're not. Maybe they just stay in the company and just generate a lot of cash value. But how do you think about these businesses? And what's kind of top of list and top of mind as the really best opportunity for you?

Well, I'm thrilled you asked that question, John, and really excited to be able to talk about all these different ventures because I've said it to select sort of investor forums that I've been on. And the one observation that I've made is that this is a story of we're going to replace every ICE vehicles sold with an EV. And that's it. That's a fairly challenging story to tell, right? Because we all have to accept the fact that in the short run, EVs are going to have lower margins as battery technology keep -- catches up. And as we continue to improve there and as we build scale in the portfolio, it will come over time, and I think we can get there. But the real excitement is around those growth businesses, right? So how at the end of the day, do we take the platform that we have to connect with the customer in very, very different ways. And when you look at what we're doing with BrightDrop or what we're doing with really the entire sort of innovation portfolio led by Alan Wexler. There's a lot of exciting things in there for us to do. So it's going into markets that we haven't been in before, like BrightDrop. We haven't historically been a player in eLCVs. But now with the trials and the data that we're getting for FedEx and from the [ merchant's fleet ] customers that we've got in the preorders for, we're really, really thrilled with the early returns on that, and we can bring solutions into a space that go just beyond or go beyond just the vehicle purchase, which is where we traditionally limited our [indiscernible]. And you see that with OnStar Insurance, you see it with connected [indiscernible] and getting that platform to where we can offer subscriptions like Super Cruise, which is really state of the art technology and technology that people who have tried it, 85% of them say they would prefer or only buy a vehicle that has it. So lots of cutting-edge things. And I think GM has always had the opportunity to leverage its capabilities. And I think many of those capabilities have been underappreciated by the market over time. But now you've got a whole universe out there through that vehicle platform to connect with customers and create revenue streams where there really haven't been over time. So the opportunity to monetize the different slices of the overall spread mobility pool, I think, is really exciting. And that's ideally, I think, where the growth is going to come from.

Got you. And if we think about sort of mid- to longer term, it almost appears like no incremental investment in R&D dollars are going into ICE vehicles anymore. It seems like it's a little bit of a stretch given the majority of the market is still ICE. But how are you thinking about allocating R&D and CapEx investments between ICE and EV at this point? And then also, I mean, there's the next leg of the stool, which is autonomous tech, I mean, which is going to be a big draw on capital for yourselves and for the industry. So I mean, one, is there 0 money going into ICE vehicles right now? And two, how do you allocate capital between ICE, EVs and then the AV opportunity over time?

No, it's a great question. And the short answer to it is we're still absolutely allocating capital to ICE because we've got a lot of customer preferred vehicles that produce a lot of cash flow for us, which is ultimately funding the investment into the EV portfolio and some of the growth businesses as well. So we need to continue to keep up, and we need to continue to put a product out there that is strong that can result in the customer loyalty that we've seen, while people transition, whether it's gradually or aggressively into EVs. And that cash flow is what's allowing us to really lean into the EV side of it. So while we have dividend, and we're spending a majority of our capital on EVs and AVs, there is still some ICE production in there. A great example of this is just coming off of the new T1 line or full-size SUVs and how incredibly successful that's been. And I think you mentioned in our call that we're just -- we're selling them as fast as we can make them. And that's really exciting to have that type of consumer demand out there. And that loyalty, we think, will help translate into EV loyalty going forward as we continue to sort of expand our EV lens. So there's still some capital. But I think, ultimately, this is what I alluded to and I talked about going through the long-term plan and defining successes. This is a transition that's going to have to have a lot of agility to it, right? We either have to lean in heavily to EVs or potentially, we have to be investing in a little bit more ICE depending on where the consumers are. We can produce it, and we need to be ready to produce it. And to some extent, we need to lean into consumers and get them comfortable with that. And I think when you look at charging infrastructure, you look at range capabilities, a lot of that EV anxiety is starting to fade, and we're starting to see take rates increase. But ultimately, the consumer is going to be the dictator of when that comes, and we need to be there for all of our customers. So yes, I expect there's still a ICE investment out there, but certainly, we're leaning heavily into the EV and AVs.

Got you. And when you think about the move towards EVs, I mean, how important is the Ultium platform strategy? And then also in that -- in the context of that strategy or maybe just EVs generally, how deep does GM need to get into battery development and maybe even co-investing on production or even putting its own capacity in place on batteries over time? It just seems like there's an advantage on the Ultium platform, but it may even need to go deeper into batteries. How do you think about that?

Yes. No, look, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think the Ultium platform is a differentiator. For us just given its versatility, whether it's versatility and how the batteries stack or how they're built in. And the way I look at it is we don't necessarily have to design the vehicle around the battery as much as the battery is there as a platform to allow creativity on the vehicle. Sure, it's different. Sure, It's heavier. But at the end of the day, we have a lot more versatility in the way those batteries are made up and they're assembled into a full system. Depending on what vehicle, and you're seeing that agility all the way through the new GMC HUMMER EV to the Cadillac LYRIQ and all these different designs that we're looking at going forward. So I think that versatility is critically important. And I think one of the questions that gets asked a lot, and I know it's getting asked of everybody is what is the future for battery tech. It certainly appears that, whether it's raw materials or battery production, there's certainly going to be limitations. And I think that's a challenge that we have to look at. When you've got sort of the crown jewels in this Ultium platform that we're designing the entire fleet around, we've got to make sure that we've got security of supply. So I think you'll see us continuing to lean in the way we have in our partnership with LG. And we'll continue to look at that. And we'll also explore similar to what we've done with SolidEnergy Systems as a venture that was announced recently with them, to explore alternate technologies as well because ultimately, there's a lot of capital and a lot of research going into this space. And we shouldn't have an arrogance that we have the right answer, we need to make sure that we are in partnership with people who are creating different alternatives to the same path that can fit within the Ultium platform. And we can use our influence and scale to help steer that to something that can work to expand our versatility and ultimately make it cheaper to produce and therefore, more affordable for customers. So I do think that there's a lot of integration in the battery side, especially as we're getting started. And this is one of those areas where I think scale makes a difference as we talked about with all the new [ engines ]. And we just have to make sure that we use scale to our advantage then.

Got it. Switching to GM Financial, which often doesn't get a lot of airtime right now with everything that's going on with EVs. There's some real opportunity for things to open up there as far as new revenue and profit streams. Traditionally, it's been consumer and dealer financing way back when it was mortgages, and we're not suggesting to even think about that again. But it does seem like there's some real things that dovetail with the connected car and the EV, like the insurance opportunity you're going after potentially fleet financing opportunities and maybe how you finance mobility on demand, whether it be through Cruise or other third-party operators. So how do you think about GM Financial in the context of the opportunity set? And there seems like there's things like this, this insurance opportunity, it's like, wow, that's just a simple straightforward thing just makes a lot of sense. I mean we all should have been thinking about that before. I'm not throwing stones to you guys. I mean it just makes a lot of sense. Hey, if you understand the data and what's going on in the vehicle, you can insure it pretty well. So I mean, how do you think about all these opportunities that are connected to EVs and the connected vehicle that are augmented by GM Financial?

Well, I'd be remiss if I didn't start this answer with -- without thanking the GMF team. When you look at the year they had last year amidst the COVID crisis, a record year, helped in part by used car values and a lot of really, really strong performing credit, I think helped a little bit by some of the stimulus and some of the unemployment. But the customer relationships that we have with GMF are really at the leading edge. And I think their business is often a hard business. And I like how you put it, that it's sometimes the one that nobody talks about. But it also has some of the most important touch points for the customer. They want that to go well and sometimes life happens and there's stress. And when you look at how GMF handles relationships with the customer, their Net Promoter Scores and their customer satisfaction is head and shoulders above where other traditional lenders might be. And that's important because that's an extension of the brand. And when people feel like GMF is treating them well, they feel like GM is treating them well. And I think that's a very important piece going forward. And I think it is a little bit of a linchpin of why we think we can be successful in the insurance business. Sure, technology is an enabler, and it certainly gives us a platform to provide some competitive advantages. But it's really what you do with that data and really how you harness it to bring value to the consumer to decide whether or not they're going to switch their insurance to a General Motors product versus where they might have otherwise had their portfolio. So I think it's sometimes easy in this space to say that technology is what's driving all this. At the end of the day, it really comes back to that GM culture. And where GMF interacts with the customer, they lead among substantially all of their peers. I think that's a great platform for us to launch more consumer-oriented businesses. So we're looking forward to another great year at GMF. Obviously, used car values have remained very, very strong. You're seeing that in everything that you read and write? So I think that's the important piece of it. And I wouldn't want to go into that space with anybody but GMF behind us and their reputation for service.

Okay. There's a lot of discussion about what the new administration is going to mean for the industry, whether it be CAFE standards, stimulus direct to EVs, to infrastructure. I know we got some news out today, which I've been [indiscernible], haven't seen all of it. So you might have more insight on this directly from just what happened today. But I mean how do you think about what the current administration is going to do for the industry? Will it step up to really help EVs? Will it be a carrot and a stick approach where kind of hangs out of these incentives, but then tries to push forward with higher CAFE standards. I mean, how do you think about this? I mean it's a big -- obviously, a major change in many way from the Trump administration and [indiscernible]. But for the industry, it was kind of -- things were a little bit easier under the Trump administration and what was going on. Now they seem like it might be a bit tougher. How do you think about that for GM and the industry?

Well, I'll spare you reading the proposal to you. I had a chance to skim it earlier today, but just skim it. And I think there are many interesting things in there. One of the things that we've said before is that EV anxiety, range anxiety, charging anxiety is not going to be solved by any one company. There's sort of a sort of national priority and infrastructure that has to happen. And there are items in there for creating a network of charging stations. And we can take care of the home and we can take care of certain commercial locations, but that's sort of out on the road and how do you make it as ubiquitous as gas stations, et cetera. I think there's a public/private solution there that can be thought or can be instituted. There's no doubt from the earliest days of the administration that it's going to be a very pro-EV administration. I don't think that's a bad thing. I think when you look at the priorities of the administration and the focus on jobs, the focus on infrastructure, the focus on EVs, I think we line up very well. And I think we have a good product offering and strategy to be able to help with some of those priorities and make sure that we're continuing to move that forward. So there's a lot more to come on this. I think you just kind of heard day 1 today, but we're obviously following it very, very closely.

And in some of the early discussed requirements, right? I mean this is all in flex right now, is that vehicles have to have certain dollar content and labor content that is U.S. or North American. As you think about that, I mean, I would imagine that would probably advantage you to some extent. But is that the kind of stuff that the industry has been able to influence what potential policy might come to pass? I mean we don't know the answers to this stuff exactly yet. But is that something that the administration is looking at and saying, "Hey, this isn't just an environmental policy. This is a labor policy. This is an economic policy to drive economy, that's maybe even a national security issue." Is this the kind of thing where the domestic manufacturers might be somewhat advantaged here in the U.S. and have the administration here? Or is it sort of an all-comers situation?

Well, I think there's an element here that all comers can benefit. But I do think that there's going to be what -- I'm not reading into the administration. I haven't spoken [ of any area ] a lot, but there's a lot of sort of pro-U.S. jobs and how do we create jobs and good solid high-paying jobs. We have a lot of those here. But I think some of those things line up fairly well. So take, for example, the recent semiconductor challenges and what the administration is -- has said they're doing in terms of studying the issue. And is there an opportunity to locate onshore more semiconductor fabrication and chip makers? I think that's something that we would support from that standpoint. I think anything that we can do to help insulate security of supply and ultimately take out some of the geographic diversity risk that we've seen, whether it's been COVID or whether it's been acts of God or fires, we've seen a lot of impact across various parts of the supply chain. And I think there are some reasons why having that closer and having that in a deeper partnership could be things that benefit us. And I'm sure there are hundreds more opportunities like that through the supply chain that could be beneficial. But we certainly share that perspective, and we'll continue to wish for that and work for that in our strategy.

Got it. I think Doug Karson had a question on the balance sheet. Real quick, Doug?

Yes. Thanks so much. Paul, you've done a great job, came back to set your bar kind of during COVID and you're sitting there with a close to $22 billion cash and market securities [ bounced ] -- and the balance sheet leverage is close to the lowest I've seen it. What do you think the sweet spot for your balance sheet is leverage-wise? How do you kind of marry that against some big investments that you've been making in EV. Looks like the market -- equities is paying for the EV growth and the balance sheet looks like going to have some capacity to invest in that future. Maybe you could just help us balance that?

Yes. Well, I appreciate that, Doug. And all credit goes to Rocky and the treasury team. I think they did an excellent job of managing through the COVID crisis, keeping the company liquid and doing what we needed to and was very pleased that Moody's came out and reaffirmed our ratings and put us on stable. I think that's a strong indication of having weathered the brunt of the storm. I think also to your question, I don't -- I think it's too soon to declare victory many of us are getting vaccinated, and that's happening at increasing rates. But we're still in the midst of this, and a hiccup can cause disruption. So I think we're meant to carry a little bit more security in the form of cash, just in case something happens. But when I think about investment, there's 2 aspects to investment, right? One is having the financial ability to write the check. The second is having the resource ability to actually deploy it effectively. And I think we are -- we're running pretty hot on capital investment this year. We've set $9 billion to $10 billion this year with the majority of that in EVs and AVs. So we've got people doing a lot of work around the clock trying to do that. So sometimes it's not a case of just more money, but that's what we've got to do as part of this exercise of going in and figuring out how are we defining success for ourselves and are there places where we can lean in harder with resources than with finances in order to accelerate some of the higher-margin, higher-contribution businesses? So we'll do that in a balanced way because the one thing -- if you followed my prior career, know my prior career, maintaining an investment-grade balance sheet is critically important when you're in businesses that are cyclical. And that's only magnified here because of the relationship with GMF and the importance of doing that. So we're going to do right by the balance sheet always. That is our cushion. That is our safety net. That is our "Break glass in case of emergency" source of capital, and we need to keep it that way. And it took some hits during COVID, but it served its purpose. I'm really pleased with how we've been able to rebound out of that. So we'll keep it balanced as far as what the right balance sheet is. I'll come back to you on that one simply because that's going to be a function of our cash growth and our cash earnings potential as we define success for us for the next few years. But really like where we're headed and feel very comfortable with the cash position we have right now.

I'm going to try to squeak in 2 more really quick ones here. So I'm going to put you in the other direction, Paul, from an equity standpoint. I mean, obviously, there's a lot of growth opportunity. You want to keep the balance sheet strong, but some equity investors want to hear about the potential for a dividend being reinstated, to a lesser extent, share buybacks. But I mean, if you think about being pulled in the other direction on -- in the capital structure, how do you think about those 2 items?

No. Look, I'm well aware of that. It started before I arrived and has continued after my arrival. So I appreciate that question. We're going through that analysis. And I think to some extent, it's been a little bit delayed by the semiconductor as we described that on the earnings call. This is a speed bump in the journey, our long-term journey, right? It's affecting us right here and now, but it's not distracting us from that vision. We're not cutting investment, et cetera. But as you saw from our guidance, it's nicking into free cash flow, certainly after we address the first priorities. So I think we're taking our time and want to make sure that we do this right and we do this thoughtfully. Capital allocation, look, I'm a firm believer that at the end of the day, our investors pay us to invest capital on their behalf and to do it with an adequate return on capital. That being said, I also believe in making sure that there's a tangible return to shareholders as well. So we've got to find that right balance of where it is. And we're on that journey now, and there will be more to come this year. Since I mentioned the semiconductors, it's probably fair to mention that what I've been really impressed with is the resourcefulness of the team. As we have said publicly, this is a very volatile situation that it changes a lot. Still feel comfortable that the full year, we'll be able to deliver the numbers that we said we were because we're thinking creatively, whether it's go-to-market solutions or building vehicles that we can finish when the semiconductor supply catches up later in the year. But as I said, that's going to be a little bit noisy. We're closing the books or closing the day, at least not actually officially the books, but closing the quarter out today. I think it's a really solid first quarter. We've seen a lot of strong movement by the consumer and a lot of strong demand, which I alluded to earlier, and that's been good for us. We're still not through semiconductors. But as I said at a recent event that I feel increasingly confident of our ability to hit our range. So it will be choppy through the first half of the year and particularly as it relates around free cash flow as we balance between building vehicles that aren't ready retail yet and those payments come due and we'll collect that. So cash is going to be a little bit choppy and noisy, but certainly something that's within our control and not shorting us on any of our investment priorities. So so far, so good to the year and everything is intact. And look forward to providing sort of more detail on the strategic landscape as we get through our exercises this spring and summer.

Maybe if I could sneak one quick follow-up on that real quick. I mean as far as the semis, is this the kind of thing you think it's kind of a matter of time where they catch up to your -- what you need or that the other demands in the semi companies ease next year and all of a sudden, you actually, there's enough supply for the auto industry to get. Or is this the kind of thing where you may actually have to kind of co-invest and maybe make a little bit of an investment with the semi company. I mean is it -- it seems like it's probably a timing issue as opposed to you having to commit capital, but how are you thinking about it maybe more holistically as opposed to guidance or anything for 2021 numbers?

Yes. No, I think you're asking the right question, which is how do you set up the supply chain, so particularly the semiconductor issue doesn't happen again because it's such a major component of what we're doing going forward. And I think it is short term. I think this is probably the most visible piece of the global supply chain. I'm not just talking about autos. I'm talking about macro, the global supply chain having a lot of growing pains getting back to life after COVID. And I think we're going to see that because that was never designed to stop the way it did, right? So sometimes restarting that machine takes a little bit of time, and I think we're seeing that in semiconductor. I don't -- we're going to continue to see this. We're in the midst of it right now. We're thinking about longer term. But what I would say is that investment can take many forms. I think most people default to would we make an equity investment or a partnership with somebody? But for somebody like General Motors and the scale that we bring to the table, we can make long-term commitments that are equally as valuable that we can go commit a long-term offtake agreement of volume that helps a -- an investor go and securitize that, right? So I think there are many ways that we can be supportive. And we're talking to everybody about that because we want this to stabilize just as much as they do. And what a turn of events that semiconductors were kind of the boring side of tech, and now it's front and center. So we want to get back to where that business is, it's just really steady state. We're not talking about it every day.

Great. Well, Paul, we are at a time. We greatly appreciate your time and all the insights today and really look forward to seeing you in person sometime soon and doing this in person hopefully in the next go round. So Paul, thank you once again for all your time today. Thank you. .

I look forward to that. Thank you, gentlemen, and thanks, everybody else for joining today. And thanks, Doug.