General Motors Company (GM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. Well, thank you, everyone. And for our final presentation, we really have something special. So again, if you haven't heard the introduction by now. Chris McNally and Doug Dutton of Evercore ISI Global Automotive and Mobility. And really to end what's been an amazing 2 days for our second annual Clean Energy Conference. We have a very special guest, we actually got to preview a little bit of our discussion last night, and it's really around GM's entire approach to sustainability. So who better to speak to. Everything that we've talked about over the last 2 days than GM's Chief Sustainability Officer, Kristen Siemen. Really a quick one intro from us. So Kristen serves as GM's Chief Sustainability Officer, driving both the strategy and ensuring the company's commitment to environmental stewardship. Kristen has held various senior leadership positions really within essentially the product side. So electrical engineering, thermal engineering, validation testing before assuming the role of Vice President and CSO. She's really been instrumental in developing and implementing initiatives to advance GM's various ESG goals, including the company's ambitious target of carbon neutrality by 2040. So Kristen, again, thank you so much for joining.

Maybe to start, almost similar to the way we started our discussion last night. Can you tell us a little bit about the role some of the goals in the near and medium term? And also just from a very straightforward position, what is the main day-to-day task of a CSO?

Sure. Yes. So thank you again for having me. I really appreciate it. So as you said, we set some pretty big goals back in '21. The first to be carbon neutral in our products and operations by 2040. The second was to eliminate tailpipe emissions from new light-duty U.S. vehicles by 2035. So, in addition to that, a number of other sustainability goals that we've had over the years, everything from our renewable energy commitment, which we had set back in 2016, a goal to be 100% renewable energy in our operations by 2050, we were able to accelerate that a number of times. And in fact, last year, we announced that we sourced all of the renewables we need to meet that goal in the U.S. by '25. So we actually beat our original goal by 25 years, so pretty proud of that, and we're well on our way for global as well. We've got a lot of work going on in everything from sustainable materials to traditional environmental work in our facilities around energy efficiency, water efficiency, waste elimination, really kind of looking at sustainability holistically. You asked what I do every day. And a lot of it is really working with all of the leaders of our company. I run what we call an Office of Sustainability where I've got leaders participating, senior leaders of the company from all of the various functions, everything from product development to marketing, communications, design, manufacturing, where we work together to identify kind of what are our next steps? What are our next strategies? And how do we make sure that as we leave sustainability really into the entire business, how do we make sure that we stay connected and aligned. And so it's really been a great opportunity. You said my background, I've been with GM for 29 years, 27 of them in product development. And so quite familiar with what it takes to put something into production and really understanding the business and how we all work together.

Yes, I'm definitely banked by 2 car people. So maybe if we talk about the -- look, we're about to enter this extremely important period for GM. GM has obviously been a champion of the EV for 2 decades, but we're about to see those mass market vehicles, Equinox EV being extremely attractive vehicle, we obviously have the Blazers and the Humvees downstairs as part of the Ultium platform. Can you talk about some of the ways that GM is now implementing that progression with consumers? The charging infrastructure, the -- you've talked about the supply agreements, other partnerships that GM has had because it's a complex ecosystem. So maybe just a little bit about some of those partnerships.

Yes, for sure. I mean, so obviously, the portfolio is where this all starts. If you look at GM's carbon footprint, 75% of our carbon footprint is the customer usage of our vehicles. The next biggest piece is the supply chain at around 15%. So as we looked at this, how do we go about addressing climate change and what do we do to reduce our carbon footprint. There was no doubt that the only way to get there was through a full EV. And ultimately, with the grid being decarbonized as well that those are charged on green energy. And as you said, our portfolio is really -- we're a full-scale OEM. And so we are looking at and introducing products across every segment. And so it is exciting to see the products like the Equinox or the Blazer come out and really be able to offer EVs now to a much broader range of customers. There's -- today, EVs tend to be a luxury item. Many people have 2 vehicles. But in reality, the mass market, there's a lot of families that have one vehicle. And they use it for their livelihood. They use it for everything, right, to transport their family. And so I think it's really going to change the -- once the availability is there for many more people to experience the future of an EV. The infrastructure, as you mentioned, is certainly something that we've been very engaged on as well. We know we can't solve it by ourselves. But we've been all along trying to be part of the solution. So whether it be the announcements that we had made with partnerships with folks like Pilot Flying J or EVgo, to really build out. And one of the ones that's really exciting to me is the partnership with our dealerships. To really -- the dealerships, there's -- there's a statistic that says over 90% of the U.S. population is within 10 miles of a GM dealership across the country. And so they know better than anybody, where charging infrastructure is needed in their communities. So for them to be able to decide maybe it goes to a community center, as a mom of 3 boys, they said it should be at the soccer fields where I sit and wait. But it really is about how do we get customers to see that they can live within an EV future. Our announcement last week of opening up in -- making the North America charging standard available to our customers and the partnership with Tesla. That's a win for us. It's a win for Tesla, but more importantly, really a win for the consumer to be able to have more access. There's a lot of folks today that want that 400, 300 miles range even though they maybe drive that long distance once or twice a year. But that's part of the...

It's just one fewer bottleneck in terms of the...

Exactly, exactly. We'll be able to see it and know that they can live their daily life in the world.

Maybe some of the more complex topics that as the CSO, you must deal with the idea about entire life cycle of the vehicle. You have the idea of well-to-wheel, raw material sourcing, end-of-life recycling and everything the circular economy. Could you walk us through some of those partnerships. And how you think also about making some of these, what are early-stage calculations about the total footprint?

Yes. I mean our suppliers are certainly a huge partner in this transition, and we are really looking at the entire life cycle of the vehicle itself. And as we talked about end-of-life, I mean, if you start at the beginning, we issued last year, a supplier pledge, where we asked our suppliers to sign on to their own carbon neutral agreement as well as a minimum score on EcoVadis, which assesses them on everything from human rights to fair labor practices to labor relations to really try and ensure that as we're sourcing and we're making this transition that we're doing it in a responsible and sustainable way. And we've had over 70% of our suppliers signed on to that, which is super exciting. We've done things. We recently signed on to the first movers coalition which is partnership with many governments as well as other large companies around the purchase of -- we signed on first steel and concrete and cement, so that we've made commitments to purchase and send a market demand out there for the green products. You asked about end-of-life. We're doing a lot to look at, not just traditionally, we looked at how do you design a part for assembly or manufacturing? How do you design it for serviceability? And now we're working with our engineering teams on how do we design it for recyclability. So that we're thinking at the beginning of not just how it goes together, but how it comes apart. And what materials are we choosing so that there are materials that can be recycled. We use a lot of recycled content today than we have for many, many years, but really to think about it at the end, and batteries are one that gets a lot of attention. We've made a number of announcements around the sourcing of the raw materials. We have all of the supply locked in for -- to meet our volume commitments in '25 of 1 million vehicles in the U.S. and working well ahead in the next chunk as well. But it's making sure that those are responsible, sustainable, a lot of focus on that in North America, what we can do to bring that supply here from a resiliency and supply standpoint. And then a lot of focus to on what happens at the end-of-life of the battery. So we've got partnerships there. We invested early GM Ventures invested in a company called Lithia and that's doing some battery recycling technologies as well as we work today with a company called Service Solutions that can take everything from the full battery to even within the manufacturing process that we can take those materials, the scraps and feed it right back in so that we're not wasting any of the precious material. So it's really weaving sustainability into every aspect of the business and ensuring that we're doing that with a focus on financial responsibility as well as growth in value.

Because obviously, I think it's not lost on anyone that these batteries could end up being used for decades.

Exactly.

Right. If it's 70% plus recycling. So even though it's 10 years away, we're going to get a lot of that volume, it's the partnerships that have to be put in place today.

Exactly.

Maybe the big topic in everything IRA, the Inflation Reduction Act. Could you talk about how the signing of that bill changed the thinking at GM? How it's changed the idea of sourcing or speed? But we see this tremendous opportunity. There's obviously the industry has changed. I mean the amount of announcements of Gigafactories has been overwhelming in the last couple of months. So how did everything affect GM from...

Yes. I mean the good news for GM maybe it's kind of the icing on the cake. We already had our battery manufacturing plant here, battery cell manufacturing. We've had -- we've got the plant #1 is started production already and plant #2 will be on by the end of the year; plant 3, sometime next year, we just announced the fourth plant probably a year or 2 after that. And so our plan to develop and produce battery cells here in the U.S. was well in place before IRA. So IRA has really just given us another advantage to be able to make it even more cost effective and beneficial to GM. So thankfully, we were ahead of the curve of those announcements and really excited to see what it can do to accelerate.

Yes. So Kristen, I'll ask you one about something you said at the beginning of the presentation. GM recently announced plans to become carbon neutral in its global products and operations by 2040. Super ambitious goal, but can you just discuss some of the innovative measures or technologies that you're exploring to achieve that goal, such as renewable energy integration? We already have done some things with renewable energy integration at GM for the 2025 goal in the U.S. that you mentioned was 25 years ahead of time. But what other measures are there, what are the levers can you pull to reach this goal by 2040?

Yes. Great question. So I mean, we've been doing energy efficiency in our facilities for many, many years. And it's a constant focus on what we can do to make those transitions. We -- everything from changing over compressed air to the easy ones of LED lighting and those type of things. And so strong focus -- it's a little bit like what we teach our kids. It's reduce, reuse and then recycle. And so the first focus is on the efficiency part and then it's really what can we do from a renewable standpoint. And our renewable strategy is really kind of got 4 pillars as well. So energy efficiency being the first, the transition to renewables, which we talked about and then a focus on resiliency and making sure that we're protected from interruptions. And then lastly, it's about policy, right? There's a lot of work that needs to be done from a decarbonization of the grid as we go forward. And so we're constantly looking at everything in our process. We had a real exciting announcement last year where we invested through our GM Ventures team in a company called Wind Catching Systems, which is a company based out of Norway that is developing offshore wind technology, which instead of your traditional large turbine actually has a grid of smaller turbines which allows them to not only produce much more energy in the smaller footprint of the ocean floor, but also allows it to be farther out. And so you get some of the site issues and other concerns around offshore wind taken care of. So we're really looking at how do we -- everything from -- we talked about battery raw materials. We're engaging at different stages in the supply chain. Same process we're doing across the board with everything from renewables to recycling and looking at how do we make this entire ecosystem help us achieve those long-term goals.

Sure. And is 2040 the stretch goal? Or is there a different stretch goal, 2035...

I mean we're going to go -- people ask, how did you accomplish the renewable energy goal 25 years early. And we said, well, we set a goal, kind of knowing how to get there. And every time we looked at it, we're like, well, we can go a little faster. We can go a little faster. We're going to keep doing that across the board. To do it and -- it's a great example of because we got in early and started early, it's been financially beneficial as well. And so we're looking at that everywhere.

Kristen, you're an engineer by background, you're a numbers person. Sometimes these -- a lot of these topics associated with life cycle sound qualitative. Can you help us also with lots of numbers people in the room, how does GM internally measure and track that sustainability progress? How is it scored internally? You talked about some of the external providers. But are there specific metrics and KPIs that your team is constantly evaluating? We would just love to learn a little bit more how that works.

Yes. Yes. I do like numbers. I do like metrics. But for the right reason. And so I mean, obviously, we track energy usage, our standards, you can go into our sustainability report, and there's kind of a one page with a bunch of wheels on it that show -- and that's really our dashboard that says how far we are, where we're at today and then our projection of where we're going to be for the ultimate goal. So that we look at that on a constant basis to make sure that we're making progress. And imagine there's always ups and downs, but it's really looking at that trajectory to ensure that we're constantly on the right path. I mean we do regular reporting, whether it be through our sustainability report, we report to CDP and a number of the other initiatives that are out there or tools that are out there, to really make sure that it's visible both internally and externally. We hold ourselves accountable, and we hold our teams accountable and make sure that we're making that progress.

And the idea of benchmarking is that versus other automotive companies engaged obviously, in electrification. Is it against larger best-in-class, how does benchmarking versus other large companies work?

Yes. I mean I think one of the things that I've really enjoyed about the sustainability role, which is very different than other roles I've had in the company is it's extremely collaborative. And not just within the industry but really across the industry, where I talked frequently to CSOs from other organizations on how can we collaborate together on things like materials, renewables. We're members -- actually, one of my team members sits on the board of the clean energy buyers alliance. And doing things like that, that enable us to put initiatives in place like a virtual power purchase agreement for renewable energy, which is looking at, okay, as all these EVs get out there, right, how do we take that and make that available energy? And how does it source? How does it get measured? So those type of things and the engagement cross functionally, I think, is really enabling us to share and learn. It's a space where we need to collaborate, and we need to find solutions that work for everyone.

Maybe moving over to a little bit on the policy side. So we talked about some of the policy that's obviously been enacted through IRA, but GM is obviously a part of that continued conversation. A lot of the conference has been about taking IRA and now implementing it, [ NEVI ] and it's not straightforward. How does GM engage with DC? And maybe what's left? What wasn't addressed by IRA? There's a lot of funding, but there's a lot of, I think, steps along that bridge that we definitely know is -- everything is not already laid out.

Yes. I mean we have a really strong public policy team that works hand in hand with local, state, federal government and things that are going to help make this transition and accelerate the transition to a [ NEVI ] future happen quicker. The one area that I would say we would still believe there's a lot of discussion that needs to take place is around the grid, and ensuring that we've got plans for decarbonizing the grid and making sure it's resilient and meets the needs. EV vehicles are a small piece of everything that's getting electrified and to ensure that utilities are unique across the regions. And so not everything is standard to be able to make the transitions we need to make.

I want to give ample time to the audience. Obviously, Kristen deals with almost every topic that's been addressed over the last 2 days. So with that, I wanted to open it up for first questions to the audience. It's the end of the day, so you can't be shy.

Hi. Thank you so much for being here and for speaking to us. So I've been doing some research on EVs, but looking at it from an international economic perspective and looking specifically at how EVs could kind of help strengthen America's position, especially like with competition with like China, things like that. I'm wondering if GM is also thinking in that way in terms of not just the environment, but also from this economic and global competition perspective.

Yes. I mean I think we have a strong belief in making sure that if you look at our supply chain and our early plans to produce battery cells here in the U.S. ensuring that we have a robust, resilient, sustainable supply chain is very important to us. You can see a number of the battery raw material announcements that we've made recently have been really concentrated in North America to ensure that we do have protection of supply and for the future.

Yes, I was going to say that this is wonderful what you're saying because you're not only saying it, but I'm hearing changes within the company. And having seen how the automobile industry has gone through many changes in the last several decades, I think that's great. So I congratulate you.

Thank you.

So I heard you say that about 3/4 of the dealers have signed on to these goals in terms of what you would like to see them do. I think that's wonderful in terms of rebuilding GM. And I hope that you're able to convince the other 3 quarters because you're brand building in the end in terms of how the customer sees GM. So that's a side but important issue from my point of view. So GM has been a long time been involved in the China market. And I have, over the years, met with the heads of the GM China. And I'm wondering how GM is dealing with the competition that's within China, not only Tesla, but I see a number of companies in EVs, which has started up and hope to compete as well. So I wonder if you have a sense of how that operation will deal with the competition.

Yes. I mean I'm not engaged in the day-to-day in that aspect of it. But I mean, we certainly pay attention to all aspects of our competition, right, and have to be aware of what's coming and -- our China team is my past life of engineering world. I spent quite a bit of time there, and it's very dynamic. I mean I think one of the strengths that we do have certainly is our partnership there. Even in my current role, we interface quite a bit with our team in China and even initiatives around sustainability and how that transition is happening. So I'm confident that the team is heavily engaged. And I don't know if anything else to add, but the competition is always going to be something we have to keep our eye on and be aware of.

Sustainability, I'm sure, is a welcome thing by President, Xi, I know that some of the programs that he has been pushing for within China. So I congratulate you.

Thank you.

And maybe we could just have a follow-on to the great question on Chinese competition. But there is a little bit now. GM has been a global company, which meant we got the benefits of global supply chains. And there are some parts of the IRA and as we know, the EV battery chain that we are trying to do a little bit more domestic, right, pulling apart some of those fibers of globalization that would have happened over the last decade. Could you talk about how GM works with the actual -- the GM Chinese team to say, all right, this is how we're going to think about the supply chain if we have to sort of divvy up particularly in an IRA world post 2025, where that obviously is really important.

I have not been in the middle of the specific sourcing decisions on any of those conversations with China. I mean, I can tell you from the past on shared architectures that we've done. There's a lot of collaboration and understanding protection of supply and what the logistics mean to the overall business case, et cetera. So those are -- I'm confident ongoing conversations that are happening within the various commodity teams and looking at what makes sense for each individual vehicle in each application. And then we have a global supply base as well. And so a number of our suppliers have operations around the world that you can certainly see and appreciate how we could apply and use those partnerships as well.

Any other questions? Yes.

[indiscernible].

Yes. I mean, from my perspective, I said it earlier, and we've kind of talked about it. It was a win for GM. It was a win for Tesla, but more importantly, a win for the consumer, right, to be able to have that access and that flexibility. One of the things that GM is always going to focus on and make a priority is the initial customer interface. One of the tools from an EV space is we use an app on your phone, right, that Ultium Charge 360 is the name of it. But we've got a ton of experience on interfacing with the customer. If you even think back to our OnStar applications, the MyBrand apps that are available today, the customers are very used to interfacing with and being able to do everything from check status on their vehicle to remote start, et cetera. The Ultium Charge 360 is intended to do that same thing, right, to be that main interface to the customer. So now instead of 7,500 charging stations from EVGo and the others that we're doing with Pilot Flying J. Now we've added 12,000 more for customers to be able to access and have availability to. Our interface with the customer is still going to be -- the goal will be to make that as seamless as possible. Today, the great thing about it is the customer puts their payment information and once it's recognized from a vehicle standpoint, and they plug and charge and go, right? So that main interface remain, I'm sure, a strong focus from us from a brand and customer interface standpoint.

[indiscernible].

Yes. I can't -- very speculative. I really -- I can't answer that, right? I mean we get lots of ideas and lots of suggestions and that software customer interface. And I would say kind of the character and brand of the vehicle is something that is very important to us. And so our GM Energy team is doing a lot of work on and even home infrastructure back up charging to be able to really make it a holistic experience for the customer.

Steve?

[indiscernible].

I can't hear you.

If you could talk a little bit about critical material sourcing. So from a sustainability perspective. How much visibility do you have into the upstream on some of these investments and direct participations GM has taken in some of these partner projects? And then assuming you do and you have some goals there, are you playing a role in pushing forward sustainability, be it from -- to think about CO2 per kilowatt hour or whatever the metric is that you want to manage towards in terms of the entire supply chain going right back to the mine phase? .

Yes. Great question. I mean, so -- very engaged. So I work very closely with our purchasing and supply chain team. In fact, they have a dedicated sustainability team that is engaged and working across all commodities as well as I work close with the battery raw material team as well. And we work, I would say, hand in hand as some of these early deals, and we get pulled in at different stages depending on the stage of the increment, depending on how the progress is made, as you can see, we've invested at various stages as well. But very, very close collaboration on ensuring that the suppliers understand our objectives that they're willing to agree and sign on to everything from our supplier code of conduct, our human rights policy. I talked about the supplier pledge, which is really asking them to make deep commitments within their supply chain going down to the deeper tiers. I've had conversations directly with CSOs from Lithium America and some of the other. I visited Controlled Thermal Resources out in the Salton Sea to see the processes and understand what they're doing differently to be able to make it a more sustainable process. So really, the great thing about my role is I've had fantastic support throughout the company. It's weaved really throughout the business that I don't feel in conflict ever. And so it's really exciting to see how those conversations and those partnerships are happening. We run a Supplier Sustainability Counsel. We have a group of suppliers that helps us really draft these policies and helps us understand the challenges they're having. And what that's enabled us to do is help some of the -- some big, some small, but around how do they go about their own renewable energy goal. What are the concerns that we have? Are there other partnerships that we should be making in our organizations that we want them to join on with to try and drive these beliefs, these practices and policies throughout the entire chain. So it's really been impressive to see what's been able to be accomplished. And those conversations and the suppliers are super engaged. And even we had a very traditional ICE supplier that is now making the transition, and they're actually running their own Supplier Sustainability Council. So they're taking those lessons learned and driving it through their chain as well. So it's really -- it's very, very well integrated.

In the back.

Just to piggyback off that question. I feel like everybody focuses on the battery component, but what about plastics. At the end of the day, most of these EVs are 40% to 50% plastic. Plastic primarily comes from naphtha and ethylene. And so how do you think about solving for that, right? I mean there's not enough green plastic in the world to get you to 2040. So how do we solve for that, taking the battery part aside?

Yes. So a lot of work is being done on plastics. In fact, we had a little business conversation last night. Plastics is an area where I've come to learn, you can -- and I did a stint in interior earlier in my career where we used ReGen to be able to do some recyclability back then. And we do -- we use a lot of recycled content today, whether it be in wheel liners with recycled water bottles or other things in our materials in the vehicle. But plastics right now, you can pretty much take a small percentage of anything. I mean, there's literally suppliers out there that are making plastic additives out of general trash. But the important thing is in understanding, as we talked about looking at it from a full life cycle is what can you do with it at the end. Depending on what you put in, it makes it more difficult to recycle at the end. And so we're really focused on looking at it from a complete LCA standpoint. And I'm really across the board on all materials in the vehicle. We've looked at alternatives for leather. And you can lock in -- we've done clinics where bring our teams in and you pick the material, almost everybody will pick the non-leather because it feels better, it looks better, it lasts longer. But we need to make sure that we choose the right one that's not using more water to manufacture or that we can't do something with it at the end of life. So we're really have a super strong partnership with our design office and material selection as well as our engineering teams to make those decisions and apply them across the board. So you're going to see more and more innovation as time goes on, and it's a space that has a lot of focus and attention right now.

I think what you're doing on the sustainability area is absolutely fantastic, and I want to congratulate you and the company. And so -- but it does go to my cost -- my question around cost issues. The fact that you were able to have good -- apparently good discussions with top management on the fact that these things cost money for the company and company is still doing research and still has to build out the factories to be able to produce the products. So I wonder if you could speak a little bit to the issue of how you and everyone else in the management team have worked out these cost issues in light of the tremendous changes that are going on in GM?

Yes. Fantastic question. And at the end of the day, it has to be good for the business. It can't be just good for sustainability. And so when we look at things like material selection is a great example of -- there's a lot of sustainable materials that are lower cost. Some right now today are higher cost because they're less available as scale takes off, we'll see those go down as well. We're trying to look at it as a package, right, so that you may have on that lower cost, maybe ones a little bit more. But to a vehicle, it's on par with the traditional materials. A lot of the things we do are great financial wins for the company. Saving energy, saving water, eliminating waste are super good for the bottom line, right? I mean -- as I said, I used to, again, work in product development. And one of the parts I had was the big HVAC module in the vehicle. And I always said the most expensive thing to ship is air. And now I think one of the next most expensive things to ship is waste, right? And in some cases, like if you think about paint sludge in the assembly plants, the more water we can get out of that, the more efficient we can make that, the more money we're saving, right? You're not shipping the waste, you're not processing it. And so we're absolutely looking at these things as a financial, in many cases, benefit to the company. Again, the renewable energy, we were in very early, and it's been a great success story. And so we continue to look for that across the board.

[indiscernible].

Thank you, and I appreciate that. There's a big team working on a lot of these things. So I get to hear it, but I won't pass it along. Thank you.

More questions out there.

I can ask a quick one on the vehicle to grid, if you don't mind. So I just want to hear what GM strategy around V2G is V2X. It seems like something that could be a promising technology given the aging of our grid in the U.S.

Absolutely.

So how do you internally think about that and strategize around the opportunity there?

Yes. I mean there's a lot of work happening in that space, whether you look at GM Energy and everything they're doing from a backup power, V2G is -- we're doing trials right now today with PG&E out in California. Really, if you think about the energy that's going to be available in the car park and what that does for a consumer and even for the utilities. Again, grid interface standards are going to be important to enable all that to happen. But again, we see it as a huge opportunity.

Absolutely. Kristen, when I think about everything clean energy supply chain in the U.S., it's been sort of more carrot than stick. In Europe, more stick and regulations. And one of the ways that that's going to play out in Europe. And obviously, GM is not in Europe, but it sort of gives us an idea of what could come is the idea of carbon passwords. Do you think something as stringent as regulated as that makes sense? Is GM sort of working prepared. It's a complex topic, but maybe it's a nice one to leave us on.

You could end it on softball. It is complex. I mean I think we're all -- you can see we're all in on everything we can do to make this transition and accelerate it as fast as we possibly can. I don't know that more regulation is the answer, but we're going to keep doing, and we've got strong initiatives, strong goals in place that we're going to go as fast as we possibly can, and we'll certainly be prepared for anything that comes.

We'll definitely be able to look at, but I don't see it coming to the U.S. anytime soon. With that, if there's not any other questions out there, Kristen, thank you so much. Thank you for GM for coming for all the corporates and for you, our clients, I think it's been a fantastic 2 days. We wish everyone well and a fantastic weekend, and we look forward to bigger and even better conference next year.

Sounds great.

Kristen, thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you.