Gerresheimer AG (GRRMY) Q3 FY2025 Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our presentation of our preliminary Q3 2025 results. With us today are our CEO, Dietmar Siemssen; and our new CFO, Wolf Lehmann, who will lead you through our Q3 development and the financials. The slide deck is available on our website. At the end of the presentation, we will be available for Q&A. But now let's start and I hand over to Dietmar Siemssen. Dietmar?

Yes. Thank you Guido. And welcome, everybody, and thank you for joining us for this call. Yes, you have all seen the news, and they are not positive. We unfortunately had to revise our guidance for 2025. Yes, Q3 came in lower than expected. The organic revenues were 1.2% below the previous year's quarter, and the adjusted EBITDA was 9.4% below. The adjusted EBITDA margin was 18.8% and thus 1.7% lower than in the previous year's period. We won't be able to compensate this until the end of the year, even though we expect Q4 to be stronger than the third quarter. And we did not expect this development. It is disappointing to say at least, and we clearly have to increase our measures to get back on track. We will -- and also Wolf will elaborate on this later. Our performance in the first 9 months of this financial year is clearly below our expectations, and we can't sugarcoat this. Yes, there have been a number of markets -- there have been a number of market influences, but the development in total is disappointing. On a reported base, our revenues grew in the first 9 months by 14.6%. Our EBITDA grew by 7.2%, both increases due to the first-time consolidation of Bormioli Pharma. On an organic basis, however, revenues declined by 1.8% and adjusted EBITDA by 7.5% compared to the previous year's pro forma figures. We had expected an earlier market recovery of the cosmetic and also the oral liquid market. Instead, the weakness of the markets prevail. Overall, operative performance in Q3 lagged clearly behind. On a positive note, our focus on being more selective with CapEx is beginning to pay off. We recorded positive free cash flow of EUR 21 million in the third quarter, and we expect a stronger fourth quarter in comparison to Q3 2025 with the ramp-up of new lines for drug delivery systems. The disappointing operative performance in the first 9 months and Q3 is particular -- or in particular, does not change the strategic rationale behind our growth investments or the Bormioli Pharma acquisition. We are still convinced that broadening our portfolio with new high-value solutions, particularly for the growing biologic market has been the right strategic decision. The Bormioli Pharma acquisition brought Gerresheimer to a new level in terms of revenues and EBITDA and is strengthening our market position. It was also a prerequisite for building a strong moulded glass powerhouse and being able to take the next steps to separate it and initiate a sales process afterwards. But looking at the pure numbers, we understand we need to act, and we already have by initiating measures to reduce costs and improve our performance, as you can see from our restructuring costs in our third quarter report. We will leave no stone unturned to recover our margins and get back on a profitable growth path. And with this, I will now hand over to our new CFO, Wolf Lehmann, for a closer look on our financials. Wolf?

Thank you, Dietmar. Following up on the revenue and EBITDA driver year-over-year on Q3 in more detail. We show the numbers in the prior year pro forma adjusted for the Bormioli Pharma acquisition. Numbers are not adjusted for FX. On revenue left side, year-over-year, the anticipated market recovery after the first half and growth did not happen. Instead, net, we're down EUR 18 million from EUR 579 million to EUR 561 million, with a mixed picture between the segments. Plastics & Devices slightly up EUR 3 million and Primary Packaging Glass down EUR 20 million. Let me turn to the segments. Within Plastics & Devices, net up EUR 3 million is a mixed bag. Medical devices, we grew around EUR 13 million, slower growth and not as much as we would have liked, but at least initial growth in devices such as auto-injectors. This is partly offset through plastics packaging down EUR 5 million, driven by continued less oral liquid containment demand. And in addition, negative EUR 6 million from foreign exchange, mainly the unfavorable U.S. dollar to euro exchange rates impacting our U.S. business. On the Primary Packaging Glass segment, PPG side, revenue is down EUR 20 million, mainly driven by around EUR 13 million decline in moulded glass with again, disappointing weak cosmetics and oral liquid markets. Also around EUR 2 million decline in tubular glass. Here, standard products are down, yet higher-value products up. Finally also negative around EUR 5 million from foreign exchange, again, mainly U.S. dollar to euro exchange. On EBITDA, in the middle chart, year-over-year, EBITDA is down EUR 14 million from EUR 117 million to EUR 103 million. Now EBITDA down EUR 14 million on a revenue down EUR 18 million, obviously, is a high unfavorable fall-through. Let me explain the main drivers. On Plastics & Devices, EBITDA is down EUR 7 million on sales up EUR 3 million. Main impacts are medical devices did have growth in revenue, up EUR 13 million, as explained, but EBITDA is down EUR 4 million since especially our new assets like at our Peachtree site in the U.S. are partly up, partly still in ramp-up, but underutilized or insufficiently loaded to cover all the additional costs as we invested ahead of demand. Plastics packaging is down EUR 1 million year-over-year, which is simply less volume falling through. The rest is some impact from FX of around negative EUR 1 million. Turning to EBITDA of Primary Packaging Glass. EBITDA is down EUR 8 million on sales down EUR 20 million. Also in PPG, the sales to EBITDA fall-through dynamics vary. Moulded Glass is down EUR 9 million in EBITDA on EUR 13 million less sales, a high fall-through. This is, a, the volume effect, but also, b, our site at Lohr, Germany coming back into production after the significant furnace renewal and step-by-step gaining back productivity. Tubular glass shows a very different picture. As on lower sales, we get around EUR 2 million higher EBITDA. Amongst others, our focus on high-value product growth comes through. On adjusted earnings per share on the right-hand side. This will be easier to follow, quite frankly, when we publish the full and final financials tomorrow, Friday morning. Still already as a heads-up, the decline from EUR 1.20 to EUR 0.77 adjusted EBITDA is negatively impacted by the EBITDA falling through after taxes to EPS and in addition, higher depreciation and certainly higher interest expense, mainly stemming from the financing of the Bormioli Pharma acquisition. This explains the main drivers in third quarter. Very similar dynamics are impacting our 9 months results year-over-year. Please turn to the next page, Page 7. Overall, revenue is down year-over-year by EUR 47 million, EUR 1, 728 million to EUR 1,681. EBITDA is down EUR 27 million, EUR 341 million to EUR 314 million. So overall, a high fall-through of EUR 27 million EBITDA versus EUR 47 million revenue. In the interest of time, I'll focus on the fall-through, sales to EBITDA. Plastics & Devices, similar to Q3, positive sales growth on the left of EUR 15 million, yet a negative year-over-year EBITDA growth of EUR 18 million. Medical devices with sales up EUR 36 million, driven by our growth projects, example in pens and auto-injectors, yet delivering no EBITDA growth yet as new assets are still underutilized. Plastics packaging, sales down EUR 12 million year-over-year due to the mentioned Oral Liquids market downside, is falling through to EBITDA with a high around EUR 8 million impact. These partly highly automated plants producing our high-value Plastics Packaging parts are sensitive to a suboptimal capacity loading level. On Primary Packaging Glass, PPG, moulded glass is as explained for third quarter, mostly sales decline of EUR 44 million from cosmetics, oral liquids, et cetera, falling through to be expected around EUR 11 million EBITDA. Tubular glass, the sales decrease of EUR 11 million (sic) [ EUR 10 million ] does not show up in EBITDA, mostly due to less standard and more high-value growth focused like ready-to-fill vials. On the right, adjusted earnings per share. Similar, we can explain more on Friday, tomorrow, after providing the final and fulsome financials. Some heads up again as in Q3. EBITDA decline falls through after tax and impact from higher depreciation and interest, mainly driven by the Bormioli Pharma acquisition. In summary, before we talk guidance, 2 to 3 main issues: one, more market decline and continued longer market softness versus expectations; and two, growth projects starting to deliver, but clearly slower and this leads to three, suboptimal capacity utilization levels with new assets post or still in the middle of ramp-up and similar post renewal of old assets like the glass furnace renewal mentioned. And those issues do clearly impact profitability levels. We first talk guidance on the next page, and then we share some thoughts on initiatives to deal with the issues. Guidance. Our revised guidance is clearly impacted by the much lower-than-expected Q3. The guidance is done on an organic growth level, meaning prior year pro forma, including Bormioli Pharma and normalized for foreign exchange. Our last or old guidance is from July. We estimated flat 0% to 2% growth for the full year, around 20% margin and a low double-digit decline adjusted EPS. Thus, on the lower end, no growth, versus our EUR 2.4 billion sales in 2024 or midpoint 1% equal to around EUR 24 million growth year-over-year. This was after delivering a first half of around EUR 25 million decline year-over-year. Thus, we estimated and targeted against the midpoint offsetting EUR 25 million year-over-year first half decline with EUR 50 million growth in the second half to yield net 1% growth for the full year midpoint to yield the midpoint requiring both, a, market demand recovering cosmetic on the glass side, oral liquids both on the glass and plastic side; and, b, growth projects, new assets being loaded with demand quickly. Thus midpoint, we expected round numbers, EUR 50 million second half growth, roughly half and half, EUR 25 million in Q3 year-over-year and EUR 25 million in Q4 year-over-year to come out at the midpoint. Now we have one more quarter behind us, the third quarter. And in hindsight, we overestimated both the market recovery and also ramping up and loading our new asset with customer demand. So looking at Q3, Q3 did not bring around EUR 25 million growth year-over-year, but rather close to EUR 10 million decline year-over-year. Thus round numbers, we are against the midpoint last guidance around EUR 35 million behind, down EUR 10 million versus expected up EUR 25 million. So our last guidance on revenue take the slower growth into consideration. The midpoint or negative 3% is around EUR 70 million year-over-year decline. Half of this already happened and the other portion we estimate in Q4, assuming very little recovery on the market side and growth projects delivering, but clearly slower. Or another triangulation we can provide is the midpoint or negative 3% year-over-year on EUR 2.4 billion sales requires fourth quarter to come in around roughly EUR 50 million higher versus the last quarter versus Q3. That's around EUR 50 million quarter-over-quarter growth. Again, this is assuming very little market recovery and slower progress on the growth projects and maybe also a touch of more conservative planning, still to be seen. On adjusted EBITDA guidance, the first 9 months, we are at 18.8% adjusted EBITDA margin. We are estimating to be around 18.5% to 19%, so very similar to the current profitability levels. On adjusted earnings per share, it is handing down the EBITDA guidance adjustment post taxes to earnings per share, which gets us rather into the mid-double-digit decline versus low double digit. So before I turn to our last initiatives or latest initiatives to counteract some of the issues we faced, please note that midterm guidance -- we are not providing any new midterm guidance for 2026 and beyond as we are still in the middle of our budget planning for next year for 2026. Thus, it does not make sense to cover midterm guidance right now. Let's go to the next page, please, and cover leadership team changes to accelerate our initiatives. Starting from the right, Norbert Topp joined us in August. He is in charge of carving out the combined Moulded Glass operations. Gerresheimer legacy and Bormioli Pharma, integrating the 2 businesses and carving it out. Consequently, we would like to sell Moulded Glass. Moulded Glass will be a new segment within Gerresheimer. We take the opportunity, and we plan to transfer to a new segmentation for the start of the new year. Achim Schalk joins us in November and will play a vital role in this new segmentation. We just went through the financials still in the old segmentation, yet we know many of you brought forward to take the opportunity towards a revised segmentation. Thus, we're working on this for the start of our new year from 1st of December onwards. Finally, myself as a new CFO, next to finance, I can help to accelerate our transformation, addressing key issues mentioned around growth, cost as well as cash when explaining our financial results. In operational excellence, the example given with focus -- focuses on, a, sourcing efficiently, where we rather have a decentralized approach currently; and, b, cost of nonquality where we still have quite some room against best-in-class. In commercial excellence, a, we drive price rigor and segment the portfolio thoroughly by customer, product, region to improve profitability; b, we chase volume to fill existing capacity to improve utilization. Referring footprint consolidation, we drive a classic grow, fix, close or sell approach. We also consider external help, both particularly in commercial and sourcing to start with. Timing-wise, this is not just a quarter or 2. This will be a focus for us for the next 2 years at least to start with to improve our run rate step by step. Organizationally, we implement the transformation office reporting to the CFO, myself, to have a focal point and Board level and resolve bottlenecks. Also, we ensure to approach the highest paybacks first. Thank you. Back to Dietmar.

Yes. Thank you so much, Wolf. A rough start for you, but I think we are driving the right initiatives as we speak. So before we open our round for you -- or for your questions, let me summarize the key takeaways one more time. Q3 and the first 9 months were clearly below our expectations. We expect a stronger Q4, in particular, due to ramp-ups of new production lines for drug delivery systems, yet this will not fully compensate for the development in the 2025 financial year to date. We, therefore, needed to revise our guidance and expect an organic revenue decline between minus 4% and minus 2% and an adjusted EBITDA margin around 18.5% to 19%. The adjusted earnings per share will decrease by a mid-double-digit percentage. We will have a new leadership team in place going forward with Wolf Lehmann as our new CFO and Achim Schalk as a new member of the Management Board starting November. Hans-Norbert Topp now heads up the business unit Moulded Glass and drives the separation forward. Starting with the 2026 financial year, we will implement a new segmentation with Moulded Glass being a separate division. And most importantly, we take severe actions. We are now implementing a comprehensive transformation program with a transformation office driving all measures and reporting directly to the CFO. With this, I hand back to [ Guido ].

Thank you very much, Wolf. Thank you very much, Dietmar. We will now begin the question and answer session. [Operator Instructions]. The first question comes from Ed Hall, Stifel.

Sort of any loss of market share to SGD Pharma. Any dual source dynamics you see in the market and how this would affect.

We haven't understood the part of your question. Can you repeat that, please, the initial part?

Sorry. Can you hear that better now?

Yes, very good.

Perfect. Sorry about that. So just first question, could you quantify any loss of market share that you see to SGD Pharma or other competitors, any dual source dynamics that are happening in the market and how this should persist into next year? Second question would be on sort of what caused the positive free cash flow from a weaker EBITDA. Is there any one-offs in here that have caused this? And then finally, just on the margin guide, 18.5% to 19%. Q4 is seasonally higher than sort of Q3. So I was wondering what's caused this range? And what's the downside risk to EBITDA in Q4?

Market share, I think we are pretty confident that the market is down at present, but there's no loss of market share neither to SGD or any other player.

Great. And then on cash flow, yes, the cash flow in the third quarter was positive at EUR 21 million. There's no one-offs in there. This resulted in a leverage of 4.15. I think it's important to stress that we are fully compliant with our debt covenants. And referring guidance down -- potential downside in the fourth quarter to EBITDA, I think that's why we provide the range. We feel comfortable in that range, as explained, EBITDA or EBITDA margin. As I mentioned, we are forecasting between 18.5% to 19% EBITDA for the full year. We are 9 months into the game, we are at 18.8%. So we're staying in that range. So we're not forecasting a major improvement in profitability for the fourth quarter, but rather coming in around the same profitability levels. And again, that range reflects either up or downside against those forecasts, okay?

That was very clear. And maybe just go back to the first question. So you're saying that you haven't seen any loss in market share. But I was just wondering if you could just comment on the extent of which you see the market declining or staying at this sort of suppressed level.

Yes, Ed, you have to say that because [indiscernible] SGD. The point is the areas where we actually lose at present is the cosmetic. Here, we also do not see shifts in the market share. We see our clear competitors that, by the way, is not SGD in cosmetic are having the same challenges are facing the same challenges as we. So the market is really down. We see in this area, if you want to see something positive, at least that the market is not going down further. It's a kind of stabilization at this moment, where the recovery that we've been waiting for in the second half of the year, obviously, is not visible before the beginning of '26 as we see it at the moment. Because the pharma business is not so -- is not -- also noted not so bad. It's primarily the -- and you hear it again and again, it's the cosmetic and it's the oral liquids, the classic areas where you have this coughing syrups [ ibuprofen ] and so on. And as bad as it sounds, we are looking at the flu season now coming. And it's first time, I think in my life, I'm happy if I hear people coughing because it might push the sales and we see this more positive now.

And Ed, if I may, first, if you run across your colleague, Michael Hoffman, please tell me my best regards. I think I worked for many, many years with him. Secondly, back to cash flow, just in full transparency. So yes, EUR 21 million of positive cash flow, and there is no one-offs in there, yes. But I think for us, quite frankly, you've seen our first half. It's too early to call in victory here. Cash rigor, CapEx rigor stays absolutely at the forefront for the business. Too early to call in victory again, and this still -- is still absolutely a focus in the fourth quarter, will be a focus for us for next year. Quite in simple terms, we just have to deliver more with less point. And that is absolutely a change that we're driving and we're laser focused on.

Next questioner is Olivier Calvet.

I hope you can hear me...

Yes.

Yes, both, good to hear you again, but pretty tough timing for you. I have a couple of questions. Firstly, on the news flow 2 weeks ago, could you perhaps confirm that the bid and hold transactions that are subject of the current BaFin audit were at the customer request? And any further color on your stance relative to that audit timing to a resolution perhaps and any first step?

Sure, Olivier. Yes. Also, thank you. It's great to hear you again, Olivier. Now referring to the BaFin audit. Number one, look, we fully support the audit of the BaFin. In order to most effectively do this and understand, we would like to understand the rationale for the audit, and we have requested access to the files. This access has not been granted nor do we have yet an answer whether and when access will be granted. One topic, as you mentioned, of interest is still involved. Bill and hold follows strict rules and regulations to ensure accurate accounting. We are fully aware of those rules and regulations and believe we follow those also at year-end 2022. At year-end 2024, we accounted for a low double-digit euro million amount of bill and hold or you're talking less than 2% of annual revenue. Those are the facts, and we'll keep you up to date on any material developments. And we're working on putting a landing page up to facilitate communication.

That's helpful. Just sorry, you said one topic. Is there others or...

No, I think this is the topic that is currently mentioned, right? And again, we want to fully support the audit. And for us to do that most effectively, we would like to understand the rationale for this audit. And as such, we have requested access to the files and then we can understand better.

Okay. Then second question would be on free cash flow in particular. So essentially -- and maybe I missed this in the prepared a bit, but you're pointing towards the -- still pointing towards the negative EUR 100 million or so for this year? And also any thoughts on required maintenance CapEx you have next year would be helpful as well.

All right. Let me see whether I understood it correctly. So Olivier, in the -- I think what I commented on based on Ed's question was the free cash flow in the third quarter. The free cash flow in the third quarter, and you will see it better tomorrow when we file the full financials is around EUR 21 million free cash flow in the third quarter. And you know that we were not positive full free cash flow in the first half of the year. So that is positive. And with closing the third quarter, we achieved a leverage of 4.15x. And my comment was 4.15 -- 4.5x leverage. And as such, we're fully compliant with all debt covenants Nevertheless, what I mentioned to Ed also was it's too early to plan victory over here. We have to stay laser-focused on cash, and we are doing that, whether it's on CapEx rigor or whether it's just -- cash is absolutely [indiscernible]. And on your question on base CapEx, growth CapEx, et cetera, look, this is now my sixth week in the company. I think roughly, you're talking about -- annually about EUR 100 million or so of base CapEx. And I think going forward, we'll probably do a good job in explaining those differences base growth, et cetera, because, again, we're absolutely focused...

Okay. Just on the free cash flow again for '25, I think your predecessor was pointing towards a negative EUR 100 million or so for full year '25 [indiscernible] EUR 121 for first 2 months...

I don't know at the top of my head, Olivier, let me -- it's a good question. Let me come back to that tomorrow.

Okay. And then finally, just on the financial flexibility, there was a renegotiation of the acquisition debt right before you joined. Can you tell us more on the -- how you're comfortable with covenant levels and so on because, obviously, you're at elevated leverage levels.

Yes. So as I mentioned, Olivier, good question. As I mentioned, we closed the third quarter, and we have now a leverage of 4.15x. With that we have the headroom that we need. We're fully compliant with our debt covenants...

The next questioner is Oliver Metzger from ODDO BHF. Oliver, I think we lost you. Can you come back in please? In order to don't have to wait. Next questioner is David Adlington from JPMorgan.

Adlington, can you hear me?

Yes.

Perfect. Great.

Yes, coming back to the balance sheet again. So I think the 4.15x is on historic. I think on our math, you're close to 4.5x with the new guidance. Maybe just in terms of -- you mentioned in the presentation that the reset covenants you're happy with. Maybe you could just disclose what those covenants are? And secondly, connected to that, with respect to the sale of Moulded Glass, just wondered if you have any thoughts on potential timing there and how that will help you with your indebtedness?

Thank you, David. So I can only repeat again, yes, you're right, 4.15x is the current leverage ratio based on third quarter results. And with that, we're fully compliant with our debt covenants. We haven't disclosed yet all the details around the latest covenants. But yes, due to the covenant reset, we have sufficient headroom, and we're comfortable with that. Then your second question was the Moulded Glass. Yes, look, at the end of the day, the rationale for separation of Moulded Glass is that with the acquisition of Bormioli Pharma, we're bringing 2 parts of the business together, legacy Gerresheimer Glass as well as Bormioli Pharma glass into one and separating that. We think that makes sense. And then we have a consolidated focus on the Moulded Glass business, especially now on the new leadership of Norbert Topp. And then we take it from there. As you know, we're committed to the separation. We also would like to sell the company, and we take it from there. The impact on leverage obviously depends on the sale price, and that would be speculation right now, okay? We'll take it from there.

We are having Olivier back your line.

Do you hear me now?

Yes, very good now.

So 3 questions I have. The first one is on moulded glass about the turnaround or to a better. So there are still weakness in Cosmetics and Oral Liquids. So is it really that you now look for the annualization of these headwinds? Or do you see any fundamentals which could be better apart from the flu season? Second question, can you also give a brief update about the Plastics and Device dynamics? And lastly, how should we think about next year? I know it's too early to give a guidance right now, but some dynamics will spill over into '26, which basically you already sold technical automotive glass, how long does the pattern will last in your view?

It's a difficult discussion. But in the end, it comes back to the 2 topics we mentioned. It's the oral liquid and the cosmetic. Cosmetic or moulded Glass [indiscernible] positive light, also the light at the tunnel but different than we expected a strong recovery in especially the fourth quarter, we believe that this will only take place in -- over the loop of '26. For the oral liquid market, this hits both the moulded Glass side, classic bottles we deliver for coughing syrups, but it also now affecting us in the area of Bormioli Pharma where we have the closures for this. And this is also stabilization of the market, also first indications that it might get better and we are here more optimistic that the market comes back a bit earlier than in the area of the cosmetic. But honestly spoken, after the hitbacks I had to swallow here in the third and fourth quarter, I'm a bit conservative now on my expectation of recovery. Nevertheless, Oral Liquid will come back better. We have to see the flu season now, how it recovers, the cosmetic, we have to see over the loop of '26.

And maybe Olivier, I can add a little to it. So your question was how long will the headwind last? It's a good question. What we experienced in this year so far was that it took longer than we initially expected and it still continues. Quite frankly, taking a different approach now, we're not waiting. What we're now doing is, and that's what Dietmar and I tried to explain is we're taking -- we're not waiting for that recovery. And for that reason, we do a transformation. That transformation is also one-to-one, also happening at moulded Glass under the lead of Norbert Topp. So we do the same rigor for moulded Glass, operational excellence, commercial excellence, cash rigor, the full program, and that will ultimately improve the results and a market recovery in our growth efforts will come on top or complement that. But again, most importantly is now the focus is on complementing growth efforts with cost rigor, cash rigor, et cetera, full transformation as explained.

Next question is coming from Anna Snopkowski of KeyBanc.

Can you hear me okay?

Yes, very good.

Maybe just first on the biologic market. What percent of revenue in 3Q was biologics? And how did this market develop in the quarter? And then on the GLP-1 side, you've mentioned in the past the possibility of over EUR 200 million in GLP-1s for the year. Do you still view this as a possibility? And would this mainly be on the medical device side? And then lastly, just on capacity expansions. Could we get an update there? Which sites are still ramping? And overall, what's the revenue-generating capacity in these sites?

Yes, I can take the first one. Actually, I do not know exactly for the quarter the share of the biologic, but maybe the answer of your question answers the following is where we are growing is all in the -- primarily in the large molecule biologic area. And that probably also answers your question regarding of the GLP-1. Key drivers of the growth is actually in the area of GLP-1. As you know, we have a wide portfolio of GLP-1, which goes in plastic containment, syringes, devices of various forms, pens, autoinjectors. That's actually the areas that are strongly growing. And thus coming back to the question of do we believe that we can reach the EUR 200 million in GLP-1 in 2025? The answer is yes. When you see the slide, we are also in some areas. You see the tubular glass. We are not growing in tubular glass third quarter at the moment, but we see the margins getting better. Why is this pipeline is under pressure in the volume. We clearly are growing into the very different high value [indiscernible] that's biologics. All the growth in devices at present is biologics.

Perfect. And then just around the capacity expansions, maybe which sites are still ramping going into the fourth quarter?

That's right. We also have further capacity start of productions that we will see in the fourth quarter that will also drive some of the positive things in the fourth quarter. But what we've tried to explain it will not be enough to compensate the first 3 quarters, but the ramps up are ongoing. Not all will fully contribute in the fourth quarter that will come -- that will ramp up over the loop of '26, but these things are ongoing and that affects syringes, especially here [indiscernible] facility, but it also affects pens in Europe and all the injectors in the U.S.

And also -- and Anna to the fact we post for tomorrow's call, the final results also will provide an update on the latest bigger projects. So have a look at that too if you can.

Okay. Thank you very much. As we have no more questions in the queue, we would end today's call and wish you a good day. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you.