Gr. Sarantis S.A. (SAR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by. I am [ Gaily ], your Chorus Call operator. Welcome, and thank you for joining the Sarantis Group Conference Call and live webcast to present and discuss Sarantis Group full year 2023 financial results. [Operator Instructions] The conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] Please be reminded that this presentation contains the formal disclaimer with regards to forward-looking statements. The presentation and discussion are conducted subject to this disclaimer. At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Mr. Giannis Bouras, Deputy CEO; and Mr. Christos Varsos, Group Chief Financial Officer. Gentlemen, you may now proceed.

Thank you. Hello, everyone. Welcome to our call about the annual results of 2023. So we may proceed with a short presentation regarding the results. We have already received the press release and all the details. However, we have a short deck that you can see also the ones following the presentation via webcast and the verification will be available also after the call on our website. So I would like to start by saying that if we see the first slide with the numbers that we are very proud, ending 2023 with significant growth in most of our KPI -- in all of our KPIs in financial KPI to the business. Strong organic growth revenue. Just to remind here to everyone that this is pure organic growth for Sarantis Group because Stella Pack will be coming into our numbers from start of 2024. So strong growth, plus 8.3%, a bit better than we have said in the 9 months and the 6-month results, a strong finish of the year 2024. EBITDA EUR 61.6 million plus 5%, EBIT EUR 47.1 million, plus 46%, and of course, EBT EUR 48.6 million plus EUR 53.2 million. So the numbers, the ratings and the percentages are going to the right direction from top line to the bottom line. Of course, as we said previously in our previous calls, focus on our margins is critical in the qualitative and quantitative KPI at the same time. Providing confidence that the things that we are doing in the business, they are building a very sustainable growth engine. And of course, with a very good growth, the numbers from a top line down to the bottom line. So gross profit, significant growth this year. EBITDA margin 12.8%, plus 254 basis points, which is a significant improvement. That is resulting in EBIT and EBT a significant growth in terms of percentage as well. Very healthy balance sheet, very strong cash position at the end of the year. It's -- I think the work is happening there is significant from the whole team. improving by 12 days of working capital. And the net cash position of EUR 43.6 million. Christos Varsos will have more details in the following charts of the presentation. And of course, as always, this is our job as well enhancing our shareholders' value with a proposed dividend of EUR 15 million, which is around 38.2% of net profit. So very strong numbers, we believe, a good year for us in terms of numbers. And so we can move on to the more specifics a little bit on the category. Consistently on the way we have presented 6 months results is the way we are looking at the categories and how we are moving on in terms of top line. Beauty and skin personal care, home care solutions, private label for transparency we have it separately, but private label is in the Home Care Solutions category, and of course, strategic partnerships. We have a strong growth in the beauty and skin, which is a strategic priority for the disproportionate growth. The growth continued for the full year, 32% and of course, it's a 10% contribution to sales, but the upcoming segment for us and very strategic in terms of growth and mix improvement of the mix for the whole business. Personal Care is a core profit generator, as we said before, strong growth in top line, also have a good volume growth, and the top line growth is driven mainly by mix, but also some price increases that annualize in 2023. Home Care Solutions, we have a drop in volume 2.6%, but growth in top line. This is, of course, coming together with price increases. But also is the normalization of the market in terms of volume as 2020, '21 and '22 has been significant increases because of COVID period for Home Care Solutions category. Private label we have a drop in top line. And just to explain here is the reason for that is that because of raw material price is dropping, we have to follow through the prices to the customers as a private label business. So that's why we have a drop in sales, although it's a small part of the business, 6.4%. And as we have explained previously and emphasizing right now, private label is a complementary part of our business and is there to support volumes in house Home Care Solutions factories, and it's not a huge strategic priority for Sarantis Group. In the Strategic Partnerships, of course, we have a growth as well here, plus 4.6% drop in volume, which including some one-off business that we lost versus 2022, which is some businesses in Serbia and Greece. But in the strategic partnerships, as I said before, is an area that we are working on a few bigger partnerships, more strategic and more value enhancing for Sarantis Group. And as you can see, the contribution is 27%. If we move to the market, here, we can see growth in every market we operate. If you remember from a 6-month result, we have a drop in value in Greece, due to some one-off business that we lost from [ Vela ] business in Greece. In the full year, we have 3.7% growth. If we exclude the [ Vela ] business, again, it's around 5.5% for Greece. Poland, plus 2.9%. In Poland, business, we include the private label that you saw before is dropping. If you exclude the private label is 7.4% growth, significant growth for our brand business in Poland is a strong combat for the business, and you will see later the EBIT come back as well. Romania, very strong growth. Czech and Slovakia fantastic growth this year with across categories and customers, West Balkans, very good growth as well. In Ukraine, the momentum continue like 6 months, the full year, Ukrainian business delivers good growth in terms of top line, but also you will see later in the bottom line. Bulgaria and Hungary. Bulgaria very strong growth as well in multiple categories. Hungary was a little bit tougher this year in terms of volume and the way the business is tougher now in our -- in this market. Overall, you see the contribution of every country here. And as you can see, the big markets are performing very, very well as well for 2023. So when we move to the simplification efficiencies, as a reminder, this agenda remains strong, and we continue to the journey of simplifying the business and releasing energy in the organization. As you saw from the cash position of the business, stock management has been fantastic this year. And this is helping a lot the cash release of the business. The new things I would like to mention that's 6 months here is that the two big projects that related to our efficiency an improvement of accuracy and speed in the organization has to do with the planning the business planning system is already started the implementation, and we're expecting Q3 2024 to be live. And the new SAP implementation that is the next level in terms of ERP system in our business. We're already starting the design phase that is going to finish by Q2 and the first implementation expected in the first group of countries in the first -- in January 2025. Stella Pack completion, acquisition, of course, is a leading Polish consumer household business and #2 in the market before. 25 years of experience and of course, presence in the market, especially in Poland, but also in Romania with sizable business and the small business in Ukraine. Together with Stella Pack we have 4 production facilities, and of course, this facility is reinforcing the production footprint, the manufacturing footprint of Sarantis. And of course, these acquisitions, as you may imagine, reinforcing the leadership position for -- in the market in Poland, and of course, made our position in Romania even stronger. And of course, that is in line with our journey of growing the category of Home Care solutions in the region. So together with Stella Pack now, we have more ammunition in the journey of growing the categories in the region in the households. Of course, the contribution of Stella in the circular economy is significant is one of the differentiators of this business. We are -- the business is working only with recycled plastic. And this is a big asset for us and for the future regarding our garbage bags production facilities around the group. And of course, working with waste is a significant differentiator, not only for productivity, cost and sustainability, but also it's important in general for the societies and the communities that we are working in the region. Stella Pack, the integration process already started. As you know, [indiscernible] generally will have the sign-off so the business belongs Sarantis. So it's a huge project now that we started all the integration process with the teams from both sides. I would say that the process is going very nice and smooth. And I think all the elements and the opportunities of this integration will be highlighted in the following weeks and months. So that's a small introduction from my side. So I would like to pass over to Christos Varsos to give us a little bit more detail about our specific numbers, okay?

Thank you, Giannis. We delivered a solid 3-year performance, growing both top and bottom line and expanding our margins. Net sales came to a record level of EUR 482.2 million, the highest ever achieved by the group. EBITDA rose by 35.3% versus 2022, EUR 61.6 million, with the EBITDA margin growing by 254 basis points versus 2022 to 12.8%. EBIT EUR 47.1 million is higher compared to our full year outlook of EUR 43 million as shared after our 6-month results. EBIT margin came to 9.8% to 251 basis points improvement 2022. With some financial income into 2023, we changed the year with net profit of EUR 39.3 million, up by almost 50% versus 2022. While at the same time, we maintained a strong balance sheet with a net cash position of EUR 43.6 million. The Board will propose to the AGM an increased dividend by 6% a payment of EUR 15 million versus EUR 10 million of dividend paid last year. This is [indiscernible] payout ratio of more than 38% for a second year in a row. As mentioned and announced separately, the Stella Pack acquisition was completed in January, and we are now integrating the business to the group. Last week, we also repaid Stella's external debt from own cash reserves. I would like also to remind that during the year, we have both the remaining minority of 20% of Polipak for EUR 5 million and he paid debt as well. It was EUR 20.9 million. Moving now to our full income statement, you can see clearly the growth across all lines, both on our core portfolio, growing across all our categories and especially the higher margin ones of beauty and skin care and personal care, in the mix of net sales, while our ability to capture growth opportunities in 2023 and combined by pricing initiatives that we implemented in the last quarter of 2022, the first month of 2023, supported our net sales growth. This, together with the gradual normalization of raw material costs and inflationary pressures, allowed margins to grow across our categories and geographical footprint. In absolute terms, gross profit grew 10.1% to more than EUR 182 million, improving the gross profit margin by 370 bps versus prior year, coming to 37.8%. They are both and the control of expenses, supported EBIT growth by almost 46% versus 2022 and EBIT margin growth by 251 basis points to 9.8%. Except the strong operational performance, the [indiscernible] may decline. We also achieved strong EBT with the support of financial income, which improved versus prior year mainly due to interest income on deposits while waiting for completion of Stella Pack and FX. Net income rose by almost 6% to EUR 39.3 million from EUR 26.3 million in '22, and earnings per share grew to $0.59 from $0.39 in 2022. Moving now to the performance in net sales and EBIT by business unit split between the business units that we report since the 6-month results of this year. The balanced performance across the EU, and the [indiscernible] before with all of them having significant growth, both in top line and then for Greece, we see net sales growing by 3.7% to almost EUR 156 million. In the full year, there is more to grow further despite the termination of [ Stella ] contract that impacted the first 6 months numbers and had a year with strong net sales. On a like-for-like basis, excluding the impact, net sales would grow by 5.5%. At the same time, the EBIT and [ EBT ] margin for grids are growing by 24%, 174 basis points, respectively, despite also the launch of new [indiscernible] brand in the Beauty, Skin & Sun care category. Again, on a like-for-like basis, excluding [ Vela ] and the [indiscernible], EBIT would grow by 41.8% and EBIT margin will be more than 300 bps. Most of the countries had a double-digit growth this year with Romania, Czech & Slovakia and Bulgaria business unit having the highest net sales growth. All countries show those significant EBIT growth and contributed stably in the EBIT margin improvement. It is important to note here also that the performance of Ukraine, which despite all the problems that [indiscernible] the year with more than 12% growth of net sales and plus [ 70% ] in EBIT terms. Moving now to our performance by category. We see balanced performance across our categories with strong growth in net sales and sales in markets with significant upside from prior year especially in our core categories of beauty and skin, personal care and home care solutions. In the beauty and skin category, we have the launch of Clinea, which impacted the numbers. Clinea was launched in May with investment bank in the loans, but as the revenue followed in the second part of the year. Despite the sales growth of Clinea, which smoothen the impact -- smoothen the impact compared to the first half of the year, more time required to balance the [indiscernible]. You see skin care is a high-margin category, key to our core strategy for the group's growth. So investment in [indiscernible] skin care is fully in line with our strategy. Excluding the [ skin care ] in fact the category EBIT margin would grow by 281 basis points compared to the drop of 177 basis points as depicted in this slide, and debit would grow by [ 7% ]. In Personal Care, EBIT grew by 65% and [ tended ] margin improved by 300 bps to 12.8%. I remind you that this category for us is a core profit generator with lots contribution to net sales as well. In private label sales in Polipak, we had the [indiscernible] of the second part of the year, as the [indiscernible] explained mainly by reducing the average price as a direct result of raw materials improvement relevant moves from competition. For Strategic Partnerships finally, EBIT grew by 13.5% to EUR 7.4 million. Moving on to our balance sheet. We have a healthy balance sheet, which provides the firepower and flexibility to invest organically to support the digital transformation of the group and be able to fuel M&A activity. As of 31 December, we had a steady financial position with net cash of EUR 43.6 million. Cash position was fueled under the on-hand by the profitability, but also by the improvement of operating working capital by 12 days year-on-year. The strength of the Group's balance sheet [ affords ] financing with better terms as we move forward. The [indiscernible] for the digital transformation. We discussed this on the 6-month results was committed before the year-end, but has not drawn yet. We are working on a similar arrangement for our warehouse in the [indiscernible], where we will start the building process later this year. In January 2024, we concluded the acquisition of Stella Pack. And last week, we repaid the external debt of around EUR 7 million from [indiscernible]. Following the acquisition of Stella and the external debt repayment, the Group turned to a marginal net debt of EUR 5 million to EUR 10 million, as having significant net debt, especially when compared with EBITDA of almost EUR 62 million that we had this year. Finally, we have committed but not yet drawn EUR 34 million of debt. We'll have another loan also to be committed another EUR 8 million, which we use as a [indiscernible] to fund further acquisitions as need arise. As we discussed, we enhance shareholder's value, as already mentioned. The Board of Directors will propose to the AGM, the payment of EUR 15 million dividend, which represents a 38.2 payout ratio of our net profit. This is $0.224 per share versus $0.143 in the prior year. I remind you that in the first 6 months of the year, we paid EUR 10 million of dividends against 38% payout ratio to the full year 2022 net profit. Earnings per share rose by 50.3% to EUR 0.59 of the euro versus EUR 0.39 in the prior year. Finally, we have a share buyback program in place. I would like now to pass to operator to open the floor for your questions. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions]. The first question is from the line of Svyriadi Natalia with Eurobank Equities.

I hope you can hear me. I have -- well, I have 2 questions regarding actually the costs and the EBIT. Have you seen a rise in transportation costs given the geopolitical developments now in the Middle East and the interdiction of ships and all these stuff. And what about also the commodity cost environment currently? And as a follow-up on this, I was wondering if the almost 10% EBIT levels seems sustainable give or take, with the various rationalization and other projects you're under going ahead? Should we consider this as something that is sustainable there and maybe rising.

Yes. Okay. Thank you for the question. Yes. We see some cost operation, costs rising from containers in -- because of the Red Sea crisis. However, the growth of the cost there is not -- is lower than the previous one we had in 2022. At this moment in time, there is an increase in cost, maybe double or triple in terms of prices than before. That is related to a specific part of the business. So we are addressing actions around this and how we can compensate that increase. And at this moment in time, we don't see the need for any significant pressure in terms of inflation or huge cost increases in the rest of the business. At the same time, I would say that there are some further reductions in terms of raw materials versus the average cost of 2023. So we believe that the balance will be neutral for any cost arise because of the Red Sea crisis and the reduction of the rest of the cost. So if I may say something more here from a consumer's point of view, I have to be very, very cautious. I mean, the high inflation environment over the last 2 years created a different place in the market. So we need to be very cautious in terms of volume. And volume for us is also critical going forward on how we can sustain our volumes and keep growing also the volumes, not only the values, right? So we don't see any significant risk at this moment in time if we balance both raw materials direction and the Red Sea crisis. The second question about the margin, the answer is yes. The way the direction of travel for the business to sustain and keep EBIT margin 9.8% and above is something that we are looking for. So -- and this is something that we're working as a team. And regarding the future and how we see the EBIT margin, the direction of travel on that, we have a session on Thursday that we are going to discuss an Investor Day, as you may know that we are going to explain the next 5 years and how we see the numbers, including the percentage of EBIT margin. But the answer is yes.

After the Investor Day also and the press release will follow in the relevant presentation with a 5-year number on our website following the meeting conservation. From Friday on, you will be able to see in more detail all the relevant information.

Okay. Great. Could you also -- I don't know if you can do that. Could you also remind us your CapEx plan for the tavern year? Or are you going to say this also on Thursday, so adjusting gross, how much.

Gross, if you remember from the discussions, we'll expand on CapEx for the full 5 years on the [indiscernible] for this year. Just a reminder because we had this discussion before on the 6 and 9-month results, we expect around EUR 20 million of CapEx this year. Portion of -- portion will be related to not warehouse we got plan to build around EUR 7 million. It's the digital transformation, which is around EUR 5 million this year. We have now Stella in and we have also the rest of the group. So in total, we expect around EUR 20 million, but I think more details will follow up on Thursday, where we'll be able to see the evolution of CapEx over the next 5 years.

[Operator Instructions]. There are no audio questions -- Miss Svyriadi Natalia has a follow-up question from Eurobank Equities.

Well, I have a follow-up on Stella Pack. I think I heard you said that after the Stella Pack completion, you have 4 production facilities. Is this for the group in total? Or is this coming from Stella Pack? I just wanted to clarify that because I wasn't...

This is the extra one from Stella Pack.

Okay. This is on top of the 4 plants you have?

Yes. Yes. So total as a group, we have 8 right now.

Okay. Great. How has Stella Pack going -- been going, the integration process and everything you...

Yes. We have already started. As I said, the integration process is going quite smoothly. There is a plan in place on how we integrate the businesses in Romania, in Poland, and of course, how we work further on the manufacturing footprint and what improvement needs to be made. That includes some CapEx investments. But this process is ongoing, of course, and we have to see things step by step. So things are doing well. And I think we'll be ready -- we will say a little bit more on Thursday. But of course, the majority of the benefits or the clear picture will get over the next few months. A lot of work is happening though.

Yes. I think. So I was wondering if it's going as you were thinking it would go, but...

Yes. Yes. It's going that we're thinking. If you remember, we talked about EUR 3.5 million synergies yes, over the next 3 years, it looks like we are going in the direction and the work of the team is to go even faster. So this is confirmed.

[Operator Instructions]. There are no further questions at this time. We will now proceed with questions from the webcast, from our webcast participants. And I call Mr. Emmanuel de Figueiredo, and I apologize if I haven't said the last name correctly, from LBV Asset Management. Looking at the profitability, the split by region Poland posted a much lower profitability versus the group average. Can you provide some context for this. Will profitability in Poland improve significantly in 2024 with expected synergies from Stella Pack, acquisition consolidated from January this year.

Yes. As I said during the -- during my introduction and my slide, Poland in the numbers here includes also the private -- almost the whole private label business, which is impacting profitability which you saw that the private label is not insignificant in terms of profitability. So this is affecting negatively the total Poland profitability. That's the one reason. So if we exclude the [ private bill business ] the profitability is increasing significantly. On top of that, and we said that in previous calls, in Poland, it's -- the majority of the business is a household business, Home Care Solutions business. And in terms of beauty and skin care, the contribution of the category is much smaller than the rest of the countries. And that is something that is impacting the overall profitability of the country. And -- but this is something that needs to be addressed from our side in the future and how we improve also that category in the policy environment. And definitely, Stella Pack, 90% of the synergies are getting into Polish profitability. So definitely, in the following period, where we're going to see the benefits coming through from the synergies with Stella Pack.

Another question from Mr. de Figueiredo from LBV Asset Management. And I quote "for modeling purposes, would it be reasonable to calculate that Poland in 2024 will become your #1 market above Greece?"

Yes, net sales-wise yes, it's going to be the biggest market of the group above Greece. But this is net sales, right, from profitability. We believe that still Greece will be the #1.

Our next question is from Mr. Alexis Watson with Grandeur Peak Global Advisors. And I quote "what EBIT margin should we expect on the Stella Pack business?"

For the Stella Pack for the first year for 2024, we assumed that we have discussed this in the past around EUR 78 million to EUR 80 million net sales. And we expect to have EBITDA now including synergies, including this year, we expect, as Giannis mentioned, over the next few years, we expect 3.5 million synergies, 1.5 million synergies this year. So with this EBITDA will be -- should be around EUR 10 million, so a 13% margin accretive to the group. In EBIT margins, it should be -- we expect around 7.5 -- so EUR 7.5 million, so around 9%-9.5% in terms of EBIT margin. Looking at EBITDA and now the idea is that including us coming as a stand-alone business with the synergies and the since we expect next year, the margin will be further improved.

And another question from Mr. Watson. After the sale of the ESTEE LAUDER JV and excluding the investment in Clinea, what is our normal EBIT margin level to expect?

I think this one we have already mentioned that the 9.8% is a base for us. And as you will see in the next 5 years, the plans we have and we're going to share with investors on Thursday are confirming that. So is a great focus for us, the percentage margin for EBIT that everything starts from the gross margin, of course, and all the rest of the lines. So you have to consider 9.8% as a base for the future.

We have another follow-up from Mr. Figueiredo from LBV Asset Management. I believe you are looking at Asia as a possible area of expansion. Can you briefly provide some color on how you plan to do that?

Yes. We have -- we've done a mentioning on that in 6 months results and about Asia expansion of our beauty and skin care business. As part of the strategies is beauty and skin is the category that we do selective international expansion in specific countries or regions. So Asia, just to give you a brief, one of our brands, which is Bioten is very well placed in one of the biggest retailers in beauty and skin in Asia, holding a third position in the market right now, which is a great result. And we have already shipped that we are launching now Clinea, new Clean Beauty brand in Philippines. Which is another initiative that we believe is a lot and the local players also believing in that. So I would say that in Asia, a lot of energy, a lot of investment, a lot of thinking and design going behind the growth of the market in Philippines. And together with our partners, we are working on potential expansion in other markets in Southeast Asia, where skin and beauty category is growing 20%, 25% every year in the category. So winning in that category in that specific region is great for Sarantis Group and very promising. On top of that, we are scoping and we are working on new things and new projects in other territories, whether this territory can be Middle East, or other markets that may be also important for us, and we believe that we can play and win with our categories and our brands. So I give -- I think I give you also a flare of little Asia, which is, of course, we have a successful case that we need to build on, but also as a group, as a team, we are looking also for other options and new opportunities in other attractive markets around the world.

Mr. de Figueiredo has another follow-up. Can you briefly provide the rational buyback program and how many shares you would expect to buy in 2024?

So we have an ongoing buyback program, and we'll put it also, again, because the current buyback program finishes in April, and we'll put it on the next AGM to absolutely renew it. The idea is that we continue buying the same way we have been before. I cannot mention the specific amount for the full year. But we will continue buyback as we deem alone.

The next question from our webcast participants [indiscernible] and I apologize again if I'm not pronouncing these names correctly. And I quote "thank you for the great presentation. Can we have a sense of on volume dynamics since the beginning of the year. What about the pricing environment? Please differentiate it between the different product categories."

Regarding pricing environment, I think that's why I said before that volume is really critical in terms -- if you want to keep growing, you need to grow your volumes. Pricing very minimum across the markets. There is a lot of pressure from a consumer point of view. Of course, corrections can happen or new propositions. But I think you have to work internally on your mix, on your cost of the products, internal costs and not commodity costs and pricing will be minimum in the different markets after 2 or 3 years of significant inflation. When it comes to the categories, I think the start of the year for 2024, I have to say it has been positive. Beauty and skin for us is a category that we believe from a volume point of view, we have to continue the growth and value. As I said, it's a disproportionate growth for us. That's a big one. Personal Care, the mix of the categories and the volume will be more or less flat for the going -- or ongoing categories and for 2024. We don't see significant -- there's a lot of competition there. Home Care Solutions, we have to grow category and this is our objective, and we believe that things will be more positive in 2024 after the removal of some COVID related categories from the previous years. So depending on the category, of course, different dynamics in terms of volume. Volume is always difficult. But at the end of the day, volume is the real growth. So the focus of the business is also growing volume per category and is going to be very precise on the way to chase the volumes in the different markets and categories.

And another follow-up from the same participant. Will you be -- will you be providing a working capital objective or a free cash flow guidance during Thursday's call.

Yes, we will be providing free cash flow guidance for the next 5 years on the Thursday call.

And we have a final question from Mr. [ John Calogero Paulis ] from [ Beta ] Securities. Actually, it's 2 questions. And I quote "do you see any further improvement in WC days in 2024? And the second question is dividend payout assumption for 2024 to be on the same levels as 2023."

So in terms of the working capital improvement, yes, we'll have improvement -- we have more improvement abilities a key strategy for us across the countries to make sure that we improve the working capital base moving forward. So you'll be able to see also this moving forward as well. And in terms of dividend payout assumptions, yes, it is fair to say that we'll continue the consistent level of 38% plus as payout ratio moving forward, obviously, in higher profits.

Ladies and gentlemen, there are no further questions at this time. I will now turn the conference over to Mr. Bouras for any closing comments. Thank you.

Nothing special from us. I thank you for joining the call. We are in a happy position to present these numbers for Sarantis Group. Again, the team is working very hard on making all the -- converting all the strategies to life. And of course, a lot of work behind the specific details that our business is having in the region. And of course, one of the key things that we are working together with everybody in Sarantis Group is to be the key copies as we say, is adaptability. The environment is always fluid and changes happen, but we are very strong in terms of keeping the framework, everything within the framework that we have in growing the business and very focused on our results delivery as well, the number delivery, which is critical for everyone. And we are very happy also to see it get also from the consumers, from our stakeholders that all the thinking and the strategies that we're implementing are working quite well in terms of delivery. And more of all of these things and a little bit more detail in terms of the future, we will be happy to share on Thursday. So I think Thursday is a critical day for Sarantis. I think since many, many years, I think the first time that Sarantis is presenting a future plan for the next 5 years in detail. And I think together with the rest of the executive team, we will be able to give you a full picture of what we are exactly describing how this will be executed and how we believe and we're supporting our future forecast for our numbers as well. So that's one -- that's a critical one, I believe, for -- it's a step change and of course, a milestone for Sarantis Group. So thank you again for being here today. And maybe some of you will see you on Thursday, either face-to-face or virtually.

Ladies and gentlemen, the conference is now concluded, and you may disconnect your telephone. Thank you for calling, and have a good afternoon.