Grindr Inc. (GRND) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Well, good morning, everybody, and thank you so much for joining us. My name is Nathan Feather, and I'm Morgan Stanley Small and Mid-cap Internet analyst. I'm excited to be joined by George Arison, Grindr's CEO; and Vanna Krantz, Grindr's CFO. Thank you so much both for joining us today.

Thanks for having us.

Thank you.

Great. Now before we begin, a quick housekeeping item. For important disclosures, please see the Morgan Stanley research disclosure website at www.morganstanley.com/researchdisclosures. If you have any questions, please reach out to your Morgan Stanley sales representative.

And with that, let's begin. So I want to kick it off a little bit more high level. For those that may not be familiar, can you talk through the Grindr story, market positioning and your strategy?

Sure. So Grindr is the largest dating app for gay and bi people in the world. And we have about 13.5 million monthly active users. Our product has been around since 2009. We're coming up on 15 years in the market, and it's a very simple product. There's 4 main pages. You see a lot of people that you can interact with. You can have favorites. You have a chat function, which is extremely active. Our users sent a lot of messages a day, about 111 billion messages sent in 2022. We've not released 2023 numbers yet. So that's the kind of basic feature of the app. It's global. We're in 190 countries, and it is LGBTQ like everyone knows us. In the community, about 85% unaided brand recognition in the United States. The product, as I said, has been around for a long time, and it really is an interconnector of gay people in the world. So people use it for a lot of things other than that. People are obviously there for a casual date. People are there for long-term relationships. And our research shows that about 4 in 10 gay relationships in the U.S. originated on Grindr. And then people are there for networking, social engagements like this is my layer of my Grindr friends. It's a very common kind of phenomenon among our users as well as things like travel. So people frequently might use a Grindr to figure out where they should stay, where they should eat, what activities are happening in a given market before they go to that location. And then health information as well. So like I think it's pretty undisputed that had Grindr not done the things that it did, monkey pox would have been a much worse of a phenomenon 2 years ago than it actually was because we started to message massively inside the app telling people, hey, go get a vaccine. We built a little web app that allowed you to look up where to get a vaccine. And over 2 million people in the U.S. looked up where to get a vaccine through that widget that we created. So even kind of on the health side, people obtain a lot of information on Grindr. So we do all these broad range of things for the user, which is why such a ubiquitous product for this [indiscernible].

Great. Well, that's really helpful and a lot to unpack there. But maybe we'll start with just market sizing. And I think online dating, it's always been a bit hard to do a proper market sizing just given most people don't really have a budget they allocate to, think it's much emotive. So how do you think about the market opportunity, both in terms of users, but then also spend?

Sure. So here's how we think about it. We are actually a beneficiary of what we call social -- sorry, social secular tailwinds. And as you can imagine, there's lots of the word sex in our daily jobs as well. So I'm getting mixed up. So the social secular tailwinds have been around for a little bit of time, but they're actually accelerating their pace. And so what we mean by that, maybe to provide a little more context is that in 2018, it was illegal to be gay in India. And recently, it went to the Supreme Court for marriage equality. Now it didn't pass. But the fact that even that conversation is happening 5 years after it was legalized really demonstrates the acceleration of this acceptance globally. That's first half. Second half, what we're seeing is all the younger folks that are coming into our app, you can come into our app once you turn 18. There's a lot more fluidity in their sexuality. And so what we're seeing is not only is the macro [indiscernible] from a global perspective providing more acceptance. You also have the entire community user base kind of feeling more open. And so those 2 things kind of are translating into our MAU growth. And what we're trying to do now is to really take that MAU growth and think about our users and convert them and develop products that they are interested in having. And that would really is the beginning of our monetization journey.

Okay. Great. Well, you both been at Grindr now for about 1.5 years. What have been your key learnings over that period? And where do you believe that Grindr is particularly well, but conversely, the biggest areas you really need to improve?

I mean I think for me, the biggest learnings probably was validation of the opportunities that we have as a business. I downloaded Grindr for the first time after I actually went and bought an iPhone in order to download Grindr in 2009. Because I was working on a company that was building another mobile app on Blackberry. And so I was always using primarily Blackberry and then a friend of mine showed me [indiscernible] like, wow, I got to go get an iPhone for that reason. And in some ways, the app hasn't really changed at all from what we had then. And so one of the big organizations like there's a lot of space here to do a lot of really cool things, both from the product perspective and also from monetization perspective. So if you create features that people want to pay for, they will pay for them. And kind of that was the thesis I came in with into this job. A lot of it has been really validated, and how much opportunity we have is really kind of incredible. I think the other thing that's really surprised me is the fact that you can run a business like this as lean as we do, right? We are a very lean team. And we are very effectivizing and get a lot done with a small team, and that's really great. I think perhaps a lot of tech companies are going to realize that now or are realizing that now. But obviously, we are really successful in making that happen, has been really good.

Okay. Great. And then any areas you think that you need to improve more?

I think we just need to deliver something that we promised our users, right? And as long as we do, I think we'll be in a really good place. We have a lot of features that we need to build, and we are working on those. I don't think that's why we need to improve on them, but we need to do that. Historically, Grindr has underinvested in technology, partly because it's just kind of the ownership story of like owned by a founder who literally filed taxes for Grindr or his own tax with personal tax return, like no investors. And it's pretty remarkable that he was able to grow the company from there, then sells it to [indiscernible], which like stops investment in tech and then sold to the big shareholders now, who then had to like clean up all the kind of technical debt that had been gathered. So like that really kind of created a bad situation for us. I think we're past that, but there was a lot of work to do to clean up the technical debt.

Okay. Great. Well, continuing that kind of feature set point, you have been expanding the paid feature set since you got there, I think, in particular, boost. I guess what are the key learnings there? And where do you see further white space in that paid feature set to continue to kind of fulfill places where people have been looking for value, but haven't been able to get there?

So in 2022, first half, Grindr didn't have basically any add-on products. It was just these 2 subscriptions and kind of that's it. So if nothing else, boost proved to us that you can have add-ons on Grindr, similar to what you do in Tinder or in Bumble. We have probably half a dozen add-ons that we believe users really want. There's probably even more, but these actually make a ton of sense. Many of them are already in test for us, meaning we've built them and put them in test. Others that are more specific to Grindr and probably don't exist elsewhere, we are working on now. Some of them involve AI and kind of how you -- what kind of information you're able to gain about somebody, right, like the unique information set that we can provide through things that we know that are not out there. And so we're working on those as well. So I think building kind of that broad feature set makes a ton of sense. And I think Boost gave us the confidence that yes, it makes sense to invest in these on an a la carte basis. Obviously, we're going to do a lot of subscriptions as well. But Boost is the first a la carte that has been very effective, and we have a lot more that we'd like to launch in the next 2, 3 years.

Okay. Great. And I want to double click on something you talked about there in AI. And George, you've talked about AI's potential to be really transformative to Grindr in the past. I guess what do you see as the key friction points here that Gen AI can really help address? And then what key AI-powered launches should investors be aware of on the roadmap?

So when they first approached me on this job, one of the big things for me was that, hey, this is an amazing AI opportunity. And so this is back in 2021. I had built a company in AI in 2018, 2019. And so probably a little bit ahead of our business executives and kind of thinking about it. I think AI is going to transform dating in general. And the reason I said it is because most people actually don't share what they really like in their profile or in the question that they answer about themselves. So -- but they are very honest or much more honest about themselves in chat. Because once you're in a chat process with somebody, you're actually trying to like really see if they match you or not. And so that real -- like this is what this person is really like it in chat. You couldn't really use chat in matching people before because you didn't have a way to understand what they were. But with NLP, you actually can. Like I can actually understand who you are. And since Grindr users, in particular, produce so many chats, right, 111 billion chats in 2022, like that's a huge number. We have incredible knowledge about the user that we can utilize to understand who they are better. So that's a huge opportunity for us. Obviously, we only do that with user consent, right? So we never do that to you without you telling us if it's okay to do, but that's an opportunity. Secondly, in the gay community, the single biggest challenge with long-term dating is lack of density because in most places other than maybe in New York, San Francisco and Washington, D.C., there's not a huge density of people that you could interact with even in large cities. And so -- but you're fishing in that pond of local kind of people because that's how dating normally works. But if we can really understand you and what you really want and what you really like, and we can then find 5 people that are compatible for you anywhere in the country, that's actually pretty appealing. But it has to be a really good match. And I think that's something that we can now do on a go-forward basis once we build the technology for it versus you couldn't do before when AI was not kind of at this stage.

Okay. Great. Now building on that, you currently say the payer penetration rate about 7%. Now that's up from, call it, 5% to 6% when you joined. And granted, even with the traction, that's still well below a lot of other mobile-first dating brands. I guess what do you see as the potential opportunity to continue expanding payer penetration and the road map to get there?

Right. So Grindr launched about 15 years ago, 15 years actually next month. And it was all about connection to the community, like George started off in terms of what we're all about. And you could argue it was extremely successful, so successful that we are the #1 app in probably 180 out of 190 countries that we operate in. And so monetizing the experience actually wasn't part of its initiation. That is really only something that we've started in this, I would say, management era being a public company. So we started with our lower price tier because as soon as we came in, we thought $19.99 is a pretty expensive entry point. And so we started with the weekly at $12.99, and we were pretty pleased with the new payer growth with the weekly. And so that's the first subscription tier that we've entered into since we joined. We also, I would say, continued the boost. So we have 2 a la cartes and 1 change in duration of an existing subscription tier. And so if we look at the marketplace, they tend to have about 10 a la cartes and certainly more subscription tiers. So we are literally just getting started on both of those levers. And I can tell you that we have lots of ideas on what we're going to do. And as far as like the cap, I would say our hypothesis is, let's say the other dating apps are around 17%, which is about in round numbers where they're at, and we're at 7%. We don't see any reason why we really shouldn't be higher than that, and there are really 2 reasons for that. One, monogamy is not a value for the community. And so once you're in that relationship, it doesn't mean that you would come off of Grindr. In fact, you would stay on Grindr. You could actually stay on Grindr in multiple ways as a single person and as a couple. And then number two, in lots of dating apps, only the guys pay. Here, we have both sides of the equation paying. So we actually really believe that 17% is achievable, that being said, to be even higher and will take years. I mean these guys have been doing this for a decade, and we've really just begun.

Okay. Great. Well, I want to talk a little more about the weekly subscriptions you noted there. So I think there's been a lot of questions about the incrementality of that and how much that's been able to kind of contribute to revenue growth. So I guess relative to a monthly subscription, can you talk to the net impact of the increased conversion but offsetting the lower individual payment, and then how does the LTV of a weekly subscriber compare to that [indiscernible] comes in at monthly, year or longer?

Sure. So what we've actually seen is you saw -- we put out our guidance initially at 25% or higher revenue growth. And we've been taking that up, and we reaffirmed it this morning in our 8-K that it's 31% or higher. And so what essentially that means is the weekly pretty much turned into a home run for us. And when I say home run, I think, on multiple vectors. Number one, payer growth. Double-digit payer growth in the neighborhood of 15% to 20%. Number two, ARPU. And so why do we have even higher ARPU with a $12.99 product, cheapest product we've got out there, cheapest tier? And that is because they tend to renew. The renewal rates are high enough that it actually turned our ARPU higher. And so what that all translates into is LTV for our weekly being within the same ZIP code as our LTV of monthly, but actually increasing the number of paying users, which is really our ultimate goal. Now one thing I just want to mention here is that we have yet to calculate reactivations in that figure. And so what I mean by reactivations is we have an app where there's lots of in and out of the app. So you come in, you might be a paying user, then you become a nonpaying user and then you reactivate. Our reactivation rates are extremely high, I can assure you. And so once we do the LTV with reactivations when you have a 1-year LTV, we'll know if there's a real spread there. But so far, we haven't seen anything. It's all been upside.

Great. Now flipping, I guess, historically, advertising has been the primary monetization driver, especially given the strong engagement of the platform.

Very early days.

Yes, early. Given you've seen a lot of success shifting more to direct revenues launching these paid features that we've talked about, where does advertising fit into the business model long term?

So advertising now is about 14% of our total direct revenue. That's higher than all the dating peers. And as you said and as George has said, it's really due to the fact that our users are incredibly engaged. We've put out time stamps of around 60 minutes on average for our users. So that's a good amount of time. And so we're kind of hoping and expecting that, that advertising ratio stays in pace with our subscription growth. And now it didn't happen this year. And because that hasn't been the case so far year-to-date, we are really investing in our advertising. And so we're doing that across 3 vectors. Number one, we're really going to change the ad formats and make the ad formats far more useful to our advertisers. Number two, we really are kind of up level the team and the talent. So folks who have done this before and really know how to do it. And then three, really introducing video. And when we think about advertising, there's 2 segments of advertising: one, the brand side; and two the programmatic or the TPA side. Right now, the programmatic and the TPA side are the heavier part of our advertising revenue. We're looking to flip that over, let's call it, a 5-year time line. And the reason is because it's going to take time for us to toggle down our TPA and toggle up brand. Brand is going to take work in terms of, yes, we have the users. We certainly have a cohort that lots of brands will be interested in with respect to potentially men's health, maybe some men's fashion. Like I think there are brands that are a natural fit, and we also tend to have higher disposable income. I think once we tell that story, it's going to take a minute to tell the story, but we really believe that advertising can keep up with our overall revenue growth of the company.

Okay. Great. And noting one of the things you're talking there and the employee turnover. So you've had some employee turnover over the past years. You shifted to a hybrid work environment. I guess have you seen any near-term disruptions in the pipeline from that? And then how far are you from fully staffed back up? And what is kind of the impact on that and kind of near-term EBITDA margin?

Yes. So just to step back for a minute. Grindr had hired 75% of people who were there when we showed up during the pandemic. I think we all know that pandemic timing was a totally unique beast. And I think most companies don't want to relive that again. And it had gone 100% virtual, hire people everywhere imaginable across the country, which frankly was not conducive to a performance-driven culture. And I think a lot of you talk about performance-driven culture, but like I'm probably on the extreme side of the performance-driven culture. My expectations are generally very high. I'm a founder of [indiscernible] company from scratch. Accountability is like very natural to me, and people who work for me tend to work very hard and long hours. That performance-driven environment which, by the way, includes at least be in the office sometimes so you can like talk to each other and know who you are and work on things together is a mandatory thing, not an optional thing. It's also not something that is for everybody, right? I tend to make work be 1 of 2 primary things in my life. I think in a performance-driven environment, that's the kind of people you attract to do that. We don't make work 1 of the 2 primary things in life. And so the result was that some people as they saw the culture we want and the culture we're going to decided they could not continue with the company. We appreciate their contributions, but that's the choice they made. It has allowed us to then attract more people who are in line with the culture that we want. We are going after some really amazingly audacious goals for a user base that has been historically massively underserved by product. And so I think you should be excited on this mission of making the world more equal, more fair, more just and coming along that journey. But because you're doing something so audacious, you need to work really hard to achieve that. The exciting thing have been, though, we actually -- we attracted really amazing talent over the last 6 months and have had no trouble getting people to come in and join us. We've been very deliberate in how we hire. We're not going to grow too quickly or go back to the levels we're at typically. We'd rather be pacing carefully and getting the right people slowly versus trying to hire very very quickly, meaning don't repeat what happened during the pandemic at Grindr and everywhere else. Lastly, we've found some contractors across engineering and some of the other areas that are supplementing us in a really good way. So we don't have to face hiring quickly because we can use contractors as a supplement. And so nothing has really fallen behind. Frankly, something that are ahead of where we thought they would be at this point. I think the fact that we raised guidance in November last year and now we just reaffirmed those numbers, and we're in really good shape for the year to come and kind of speak for itself.

Yes. That's great. And how should we think about any near-term EBITDA margin impact, given you are using some contractors and kind of the pacing of that as we think about '23, '24, at least in kind of the salary and stock-based comp perspective?

Yes. So from an EBITDA perspective, we did pay a very, very healthy severance payment to a lot of these folks. And I would say that we've kind of kept the EBITDA margins relatively even in the zone. Any EBITDA uptick is really coming from the -- what I would say the benefit of the weeklies because so much of that drops to the bottom line. It really isn't about cost savings. And in fact, these contractors that we've got in place right now are not -- they're high caliber, high cost. So what you really just see is us flipping the contractors into FTEs, and there really shouldn't be any real noticeable change in EBITDA because of that.

Okay. Great. Now flipping to another cost line, marketing, not something the company historically had done much. And so that's quite unique for a platform at your scale. And so how should we think about the opportunities you see to lean into marketing kind of targeted areas and the benefits that can bring?

Yes. So I mean it is a remarkable story that Grindr has become as big as it has without a lot of marketing. And frankly, in some ways in the last few years, I think we've been successful in spite of marketing because of that. And that was one of the kind of aha moments for me when I joined. We've brought onboard a new leader for brand marketing and communications, who is a member of the community, has a lot of experience in dating and in other similar products. And so that was a big hire for us, and we actually moved him from England because he was so unique in his expertise and also knowing the product because he has used the product a lot, et cetera. And so where we are thinking about it is the following. Number one is we need to make Grindr marketing be very fun and sexy for people. And that's in the social kind of sphere like how we communicate what we are about. We have a lot of people who follow us in social. We can have a lot more engagement, and we're doing that. And some of the things we've launched in the last 3 months kind of -- you can go look them up, like are speaking to that. We have a new podcast for example, that Tristan launched that has gotten really incredible following very, very quickly. It's like now a big thing in the gay community, and like a lot of people are talking about it. And so that kind of speaks to the things that kind of can do very -- like become very viral. So we're continuing that. And then secondly, we know that there are a lot of historical assumptions about Grindr. Some are driven by things that happened in the past that have long been corrected but are still kind of out there. Some are, unfortunately, prejudices that people have that they might not even know that they have, but they still influence how to think about our product. And so we need to invest time, resources and effort into telling the story of amazing things that Grindr does for our users to counteract those historical inaccuracies. And that's not because it's going to help us attract users. That's not the main focus. But we do need to do that in order to have better advertisers on our platform, in order to have better partners, whether it's financial institutions or others and frankly, for our shareholders as well, right? Because the questions that they might -- like people in this room might have the answer to the questions, but your kind of partners and investment funds might have those questions and might not know how to answer those. And so we do know we need to invest time into telling our story really well, right. Let's emphasize the fact that we launched HIV testing being ordered on Grindr midyear last year. 235,000 people in the U.S. have since ordered an HIV test through Grindr, and 1/3 of those people had never had an HIV test in their lives, which is utterly incredible. So like that's just 1 of probably 50 things like that, that Grindr does that we don't talk about as much and we do need to talk about it a lot more. So our marketing spend will go up a little bit. It will still be tiny comparatively speaking, but we think it's money well spent for the right storytelling.

Okay. Great. And I guess adding on to that, are there additional markets where Grindr's maybe a little bit less penetrated versus the U.S. where you see some opportunity to do marketing there to help drive that initial flywheel?

So we actually have incredible global brand awareness. And so it's really more about, I would say, thinking more about international from the perspective of pricing parity and the competitor pricing that's out there. I would say that we have been U.S.-focused in terms of our product launches, and the [indiscernible] serve us quite well. We have seen nice growth on our weeklies globally. But we do believe that we could actually do quite a bit better internationally if we're a little more focused on more scientific pricing and providing better translations. And so that's what we'll do, I would say, in 2024 and beyond. But we have been pretty thoughtful, I would say, in 2024 about how we want to think about which markets from a marketing perspective of learning on how we want to do this just better.

I mean if you look at the world overall in terms of acceptance of gay people, obviously, like North America and Europe kind of have led the way. Latin America actually is catching up very quickly and is in a really great place. Asia is kind of mixed in that sense. And so there is a ton of opportunity to be ahead of the curve in that way. I mean I think like the majority of Thai parliament is in favor of gay marriage, which like I think even 5 years ago you had said that, you'd be like, what are you talking about? Like it's completely unbelievable. But that speaks to, I think, the speed by which change is happening in a lot of places. We're really well positioned to capture, right? Because as things like marriage [indiscernible] in Thailand happen, obviously a lot of people who might not be comfortable being out until then are going to become comfortable, and we need to be there to capture them as a user. So I think the same way that we see great growth in Latin America. I think we have an opportunity to do the same thing in Asia in the future.

And I think one thing people may not realize is that our MAU is actually fairly evenly distributed across the globe.

Okay. Great. Well, I want to touch a little more on the margin side. Given the investments you've made in product and planning to make to drive future revenue growth, EBITDA margin has come down a touch from the highs. I guess how are you thinking about the right level of EBITDA margin, both near term and then as you kind of build long-term?

So I think our EBITDA margin last year was 43%. And this year, we just put out our 8-K that set to 41% or higher. So to me, I call that in the same ZIP code. What I would suggest is that we are really focused on building our core business, and we are not stopping ourselves from investing in our business in any regard. The truth is it's a very, very healthy business model. And it potentially is healthier than other dating apps because there is no spend on growth marketing. And we don't need the spend on growth marketing because we can fill the top of the funnel with our viral products. And so if you think about Albums that went out in 2022, I think there was like 1 billion Albums made. And it became very, very effective of bringing users in. So a couple of things on EBITDA. Number one, we're highest in the industry right now. We intend on continuing to be highest in the industry. We have the luxury of doing so because we have a structurally more advantaged model. We can still invest fully in our product road map and intend to. And I think that the -- just the overall profile, we're not even at leverage yet. I mean we're just not. And so I don't think there's any stoppage or any hindrance or headwind in our ability to keep our EBITDA margins in the medium and long term to at least what you're seeing now.

Okay. Great. Now Grindr is used much more than just for dating. I guess what do you see as the primary use cases outside of dating? And how do you think about the market opportunities for those areas of the possibility of building products?

So obviously, dating itself needs to be split into 2. There's casual dating, and then there's long-term relationships. And those are different things. And you could be in both modes at the same time, by the way. Like it doesn't mean that you're just into casual dating or just into long-term dating. Oftentimes, people want to be able to do both. So that in itself is a pretty big kind of lift for us in terms of features that we need to build to satisfy both. We are very good for casual dating. We're good for dating in terms of finding the right partner, but it's frankly [indiscernible], right, to be really honest about it. Like it's not an ideal user experience. So I think building out the user experience that dating requires is a very good opportunity for us. That's fine table stakes. I think we should do those things really, really well first. Then the next one from there is travel, where we think there's a ton of opportunity because I use this travel so much. We've not shared travel numbers, but whatever you think of, double it, triple it, quadruple it. That's kind of the -- kind of number you'll get to. There's a lot of reasons for that. We have a user base that is high disposable income, [indiscernible] for them to do, but also because of the density point that I raised earlier, a lot of times, you'll have kind of exhausted the dating pool locally, and they're now traveling to a place to meet more potential mates. And so travel makes a ton of sense. And I don't just mean like we build a feature like Teleport that allows you to put your profile in a city other than the one you're in right now so that you can start talking to people in that market earlier. It's also like, hey, here's a list of hotels that we really recommend in Los Angeles if you're going to Los Angeles. And by the way, we have really great deals for you at those hotels or here are a list of bars where activities are happening. And these 3 are really impossible to get into, but we've arranged for our VIP customers to be able to get into it, et cetera. Like there's a bunch of things on travel you can do in that direction. So going back to your advertising business, that's not really advertising, it's more like partnerships, but it kind of is revenue like advertising. That's a big opportunity for us. I think tied to that is local discovery as well. Like what is happening locally for me to do? Who do I go do that with? Maybe I want to go to this party on my own. But if I can find other people on Grindr to go to that party with, I should. And people ought to do that through chatting, but we can actually build features for that. And then probably even longer term, there's a ton of opportunity, I think, in health. We already are a very important source of public health information for users, frankly, in a bunch of countries around the world. The website that we maintain for sexual health information is probably the only place people can access that kind of information because in those countries, it's illegally [indiscernible], so there's not a lot out there to support people. But even in the U.S. or Europe, like a lot of information is obtained through Grindr. We think we can expand on that. Not something we'll kind of do immediately, but over time, there's a lot of opportunity. Whether it's help me find my LGBTQ doctor because I prefer to do that. Like how do you go search for that? It's not an easy thing to do. We can actually match people in the right way to information about medications and what medications you should be on. I don't know how many of you guys know what prep is, but prep has fundamentally changed the HIV risk for gay men in a dramatic way. And then there's like a really big step forward in eliminating this as an epidemic. Prep has been around for a long time. And it was actually not taking off among gay men in the early days, and there was a lot of sadness around that about like why are people not using it? And then Grindr started in 2016 to message on prep in an active way. We put a field on your profile where you could say if you were on prep or not. Today, if you're not on prep, you're not going to -- basically like people will refuse to meet with you if you're not on prep. And there's probably a lot of reasons for that. But by far, the largest reason is the stuff that Grindr did. And so Grindr can really move our users in a right direction on public health. And so continue to do things like that, I think, makes sense as well. So we have an opportunity to be [indiscernible] there as well but not immediately. So I think kind of like dating and casual dating and making that better is the focus for this year, for next year. Some of these other ones are longer term, but I think there are big opportunities.

Okay. Great. Well, I got just a few minutes left here. So I close it with a more high-level one. What are the 1 or 2 things that you think investors most underappreciate or misunderstand about the Grindr story?

I think the fact that we are compared to our dating products is probably one where, yes, we are a dating product, but we're a lot more than a dating product. And so these kind of assumptions that are all like, well, maybe Gen Z people don't want to be on an online dating product and that they're going to cause you problems, et cetera. Like we got a lot of questions like that, which very much stem from the straight world. And I think understanding the role that Grindr plays in the community better then helps kind of address them. But that is one area that I think people really kind of misunderstand. And then the second one is just the level to which we are not yet penetrated on the paying side, right? Like for a company that's 15 years old, the thing we would have done a lot more of that over time, we just haven't. And so in some ways, this Grindr is a slight interesting [indiscernible] like a very mature product but also very early stage products. And so this combination, I think, is very unusual and fully kind of grasping that, I think it's very important to realize that actually, there is many years of extremely solid growth to come by just purely doing basic blocking and tackling that's already been proven to work in our products.

In a highly, highly profitable way because of the 15 years that they've already spent on building connections around the globe.

Great. Well, George, Vanna, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks for coming.