Growthpoint Properties Limited (GRT) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. Good afternoon, everybody, and thank you very much for attending. Welcome to the Growthpoint Interim Results Presentation for the 6 Months Ended December '22. Welcome to this magnificent venue, and we hope that you'll find whatever we have to say here today interesting. Just I think as in the past, if I just quickly scroll down the agenda, we're going to touch on the -- on some of our strategic initiatives that we're busy with. We'll review the salient feature of the results. We would touch on the international investments in the South African portfolio, Growthpoint Investment Partners, talk to you some of our balance sheet management, capital management and then try and reach some sort of a conclusion at the end of all of that. Before I start actually on the strategy, I just want to give a bit of a shout out to David Green and his team who are here today. Many of the Waterfront employees in our midst here today. David is the CEO of the Waterfront. And in all the press, TV and radio interviews yesterday, we made a big song and dance about the fact that the Waterfront helped us through this particular period and assisted us in eking out at least some growth. Without the Waterfront, we would have been challenged with some muted growth as Estienne points out. Anyway, I'm under time pressure. Estienne also told me that I never leave him enough time at the end of the day to talk to the South African business and all the other aspects. So I'm going to try and move forward quite rapidly. So given the backdrop internationally and locally, with rising interest rates and capital-constrained environments, bond markets that aren't really functioning, we remain very focused on the balance sheet and our liquidity. And that's been another feature, I guess, of this particular set of results. Our group LTV is pretty stable at about 38.8%. We do have ZAR 10.3 billion worth of liquidity on balance sheet or did have at 31 December and another ZAR 1.6 billion of cash. Now that seems excessive, but it is pretty much in place. The bulk of that is in place to deal with the pending upcoming bond refinance, which is in May 23. I forget the exact date, 23rd of May or something. That is a USD 425 million Eurobond. And every indication to us at the moment in any event is that we will be repaying that as opposed to refinancing it in the bond market, even more so given what's happened in the last couple of days with the international bond markets. On the liquidity side, we also -- we did sell some assets. So there's slides on that later, about ZAR 757-odd million worth of South African asset sales. We also sold down some of our holding in the Growthpoint Healthcare entity, ZAR 500 million sale. And then we're maintaining a conservative dividend payout ratio of 82.5%, thereby retaining about ZAR 465 million of cash on the balance sheet for the half year. On the international side, we still have a bias, I guess, to increasing our offshore assets and our offshore exposure. We do -- however, we are focusing on our current investments instead of running around fishing for any new opportunities. I think it's fair to say that given the capital constraints that we have, given the global outlook, it's fair to say that we're not rushing around the world looking for new offshore investments at the moment, but we're focusing more on our current investments and trying to maximize and optimize them. 43.7% of our assets by book value are now located offshore, and 31% of our earnings before interest and taxes earned from offshore. We invested the dividend that we received the half year dividend out of Capital & Regional. We reinvested that. It was about ZAR 40 million worth. And then we made a further incremental investment into Lango, $30 million towards the end of December last year. Hard currency dividend income is approximately ZAR 763 million. That's up just over 10% compared to the prior comparable period. And in those -- in that number is ZAR 50 million from Cap Reg that we will reinvest as well as ZAR 166 million from Globalworth that we intend to reinvest in Globalworth have also offered a scrip dividend and that major shareholders of Globalworth have all undertaken them to reinvest the cash. Optimizing the South African portfolio, ongoing focus there, selling noncore assets and also trying to position the assets with a great focus on sectors that produce or likely to produce higher growth as well as regions that are performing better than others. We sold 19 properties at ZAR 756 million, small profit to book. And we still have -- at December, we had 2 properties valued at ZAR 113 million that was held for sale. In aggregate, if you think of this sort of repositioning, we refer back to FY '17 when we sort of started with us, and we've sold over ZAR 10.5 billion worth of assets, over 132 properties. Growing revenue streams, new revenue streams from Growthpoint Investment Partners and our trading and development activities, the assets under management grew by ZAR 1.1 billion, 7-odd percent to ZAR 16.7 billion across the 3 funds. We do have a stated -- publicly stated target there of ZAR 30 billion of assets under management by FY '27. The fees that we earned for the half year is ZAR 48 million. That is more than double what we had in the prior comparable period and due in the main to growth in the student accommodation fees where the prior comparable period only had 1 month's worth of fees, so this is a 6-month number, and then also Lango producing ZAR 8.6 million of fees compared to 0 in the comparable period. So the co-investment strategy leaves us with equity invested in these funds. And there, we earned ZAR 79 million of dividend income, ZAR 66 million from the Healthcare Fund, ZAR 9 million from the student accommodation fund and ZAR 3.2 million from Lango. We'll talk about Lango later. And then trading and development, total fees there about ZAR 77-odd million made up of trading profits, development fees as well as net property income on some of the assets that are held in earning rental. Salient features for the period under review. The dividend per share is up 4.6% to ZAR 0.643, and compared to the distributable income per share, which is up 1.3% to ZAR 0.779. The play there, I guess, why the one is higher than the other is the income or the actual payout ratio. So the payout ratio for the 6 months to December '21 was 80%. The payout ratio for this period is 82.5%, giving you the difference. Spoke about the growth in assets under management, 7% growth. Total property assets, up 2% at ZAR 174 billion. Group LTV remains conservative, and then NAV was down 2.2%, with the share price currently trading at about [ ZAR 13.01 ]. In fact, I think it was a bit below [ $13 ]. I mean that represents a discount of somewhere between 38% and 40% to NAV. And I know that there's some investors in the room who potentially see some value in that. So that's good news. Just on the financials. This slide tries to [ give you ] just a feel for what the various moving parts of the business did in 6 months compared to the prior comparable 6-month period. Total distributable income was up ZAR 39 million or 1.5%. South Africa, down ZAR 31 million. There's obviously a tremendous amount of moving parts in that number, anything from asset sales to, as you can see here, the increases in property expenses. A big chunk of that is also linked to the diesel costs that we've incurred in running generators throughout the portfolio, which was in the order of ZAR 48 million worth of expenses. So a large number of moving parts in the South African portfolio. On balance, I'd say the South African business is still -- whilst the retail and industrial environment have improved measurably, the office environment does remain constrained. I would also add that from a geographical perspective, the Western Cape, Eastern Cape and KZN performing substantially better than Gauteng. Gauteng is the problem child as a region. On the finance cost, ZAR 79 million negative movement there compared to the prior comparable period, in the main, linked to slightly higher gearing but also, obviously, the interest rates having moved up considerably between, obviously, the 6-month period, December '21 versus December '22. And thank goodness, I guess, for our hedging strategies and our hedging policies. With 85% of our debt hedged, it has provided obviously a pretty big buffer. We did some very high-level back of the cigarette box calculations if we were completely unhedged. With the recent move in interest rates, we probably would have lost ZAR 1 billion or would have incurred an extra ZAR 1 billion in interest. So we're very thankful for the hedging policy. And this is where the Waterfront -- I guess, the next item is the Waterfront. So ZAR 68 million improved contribution from the Waterfront, 23% increase in net property income at the Waterfront. By all accounts, the Waterfront is back to -- in fact, exceeding prepandemic levels, certainly in terms of absolute levels of trade down at the -- and turnovers down at the EBIT level, it's still a little bit behind mainly due to some elevated costs, including once again the old diesel story. Distribution from GOZ is up ZAR 7 million. I'll talk to the details of GOZ on the slides that come later. Globalworth up 17 million. And Capital & Regional, up ZAR 50 million. The reason for Cap Reg is big move in -- positive contribution is the fact that there was no dividend paid in the private -- sorry, in the prior comparable period. Smaller movements there on the dividends from the co-investment stakes that we have, and Growthpoint Investment Partners, as I pointed out early, ZAR 22 million higher than the prior compound period. Trading and development pretty flat, ZAR 77 million this period, ZAR 76 million in the prior period. Looking at a little bit more detail on the income statement. Total gross property revenues or gross property income grew 9.2% from ZAR 6.4 billion to ZAR 7 billion, just over ZAR 7 billion. A very big chunk of that growth is -- did come from GOZ. And the GOZ number, again, I'll talk a little bit later, is a little bit skewed based on some significant lease surrender payments that were paid by one of the tenants that vacated a building in Sydney. But total revenues up 9.2%. Property expenses up 12.2%, again, GOZ featuring pretty big in that as well as, I guess, the -- what was the other number I was looking for? But no, largely sort of GOZ, I think, on that expense line. That leaves us with net property income up 8%, just over ZAR 5 billion. Our other operating expenses grew at 13.9%. Once again, GOZ featuring there, that's essentially the addition of the Fortius Fund Management business, the acquisition of that business and bringing in the, I think, about 35-odd people, the costs associated with that business into the other operating expense line for GOZ. Net property income after all of those operating expenses at the bottom of the page, up 7.5% to ZAR 4.6 billion. On to the next page, just dealing with our finance costs. Finance costs were up 10.9% to ZAR 1.8 billion. Key feature there, I guess, is obviously the slightly higher gearing in GOZ, and the fact that GOZ is interest expense, their hedging policy is not quite as aggressive as ours. They were only 66% hedged, and their weighted average cost of debt went up from 2.9 to 4.2. And so they're incurring a bit more interest expense on their debt. So we then have total finance and other income of ZAR 628 million, that was up 22%. And after adjusting at the bottom of the page there, for the noncontrolling interest, foreign exchange profits and losses, [ antece ] and divestiture and taxation, we end up with distributable income of ZAR 2.6 billion, 1.5% ahead of the prior comparable period. This slide just does a reconciliation from what we, as a company, determine is distributable income to the SA REIT FFO number. The SA REIT FFO coming in at ZAR 2.696 billion, slightly higher and reflecting 2.3% growth. And on a per share level, slightly lower at 2.1% growth in FFO per share. And the reason for that, we didn't actually issue any new shares. But we -- the number of treasury shares that we had has reduced, and therefore, the effective number of shares that we used for this calc was slightly higher. So we -- the distributable income per share then, ZAR 0.779, payout ratio of 82.5%, giving you the dividend of ZAR 0.643. A few key features of the balance sheet. Property portfolio, South Africa is about ZAR 70 billion, pretty stable. I guess the bulk of the growth in the South African portfolio is mainly through the funds coming through the fact that we consolidate the Healthcare Fund and the student accommodation fund. GOZ also up slightly, mainly through the acquisition. Whilst there was a devaluation in GOZ, there was also acquisition of one pretty substantial property towards the end of the financial year. And then Capital & Regional coming down to -- from ZAR 8.4 billion to ZAR 7.2 billion, mainly linked to property valuation write-downs in the U.K. On the equity-accounted investment side, we got ZAR 14.8 billion worth of assets there. Our investment in the Waterfront, ZAR 5.9 billion. That's 50% of the Waterfront. Looking at that number in isolation gives you a bit of a skewed picture. You need to also look at the line just below that box, which is the loans granted, that amount there of ZAR 3.3 billion. ZAR 3 billion of that is the shareholder development loan to the Waterfront. So our investment in the Waterfront is valued at just over ZAR 9.1-odd billion. The other big investment there is our investment in Globalworth at NAV at ZAR 8.9 billion. And then we've got the loans granted number, listed investments, which is actually 15% in an entity called the Dexus Industria-funded GOZ holds. That's worth ZAR 1.6 billion. Our stake in Lango, after the additional equity invested there, is valued at ZAR 1.28 billion and the small amount of unlisted investments. Debt, we have ZAR 66.5-odd billion worth of debt, ZAR 39 billion in South Africa. Growth in Australia has got ZAR 23 billion and Capital & Regional, ZAR 3.7 billion. Total shareholder interest or NAV, ZAR 72.4 billion. How am I doing? Okay. I'll try and get through the rest in the next 5 minutes. So GOZ. GOZ, the numbers for GOZ for this particular period, probably flatter the performance a little bit. We own 62.7% of GOZ. The -- at cost, that investment is -- was ZAR 9.6 billion. Current market value is about ZAR 16.6 billion. FFO grew at 12.5%, and the FFO per share grew from $0.153 to $0.136. Now that growth is, in large part, driven by the fact that we had one particular tenant in a building in Sydney who vacated and paid the full lease termination amount, and we forced to reflect all of that income in this particular accounting period. So there was probably about $20-odd million of the $40-odd million increase in revenues or NPI at GOZ. About $20-odd million is due to that particular lease cancellation. Distribution growth for GOZ was 2.9%, $0.107 dividend versus $0.104 and on that basis, the payout ratio was just below 70% compared to 76% in the prior comparable period and guidance from GOZ at 82% for the full year. GOZ clearly remains a very, very important part of our business and a core investment for us. And we continue to support that entity and management with their strategic initiatives. It has a very strong balance sheet. Gearing has gone up from low 30s to just below 35%. It's still below the, let's say, the target gearing range of 35% to 45%. And the company has great access to liquidity. ZAR 357 million of undrawn debt. On a like-for-like basis, we have seen negative values now in the U.K., mainly in the office portfolio. The industrial portfolio still was pretty flat. The bulk of that devaluation came from the office portfolio. NAV per share as a consequence of that decreased by 6.8% to $4.25, share price trading today at about $3.15-odd, so also trading at around 25%, 26% discount to NAV. 66% of the total debt is fixed. Average duration, 3.3 years at 3% all-in cost. The portfolio comprises about ZAR 5 billion (sic) [ $5 billion ] worth of office and industrial assets, probably or split roughly 70-30 between office and industrial. We did acquire one asset in Dandenong with a very long WALE. It's predominantly let to government, 9.4 years average lease and at $165 million. The office portfolio was valued downwards by $165 million or 5%, and the industrial portfolio was pretty flat. 95% of GOZ's portfolio is leased to government, listed entities or large organizations in Australia. Portfolio vacancy is only 6%, 94% let and 96% -- 96.7% by GLA. 5.2% weighted average cap rate, 6.3 WALE, and in the period, we let 89,000 square meters. So I mean, those sort of KPIs and the key measures for GOZ look pretty good and pretty healthy, certainly, when you compare it to the South African portfolio and even the other portfolios that we've invested in. We did successfully integrate the Fortius acquisition. That was a $55 million -- sorry, that was about a $45 million investment. There have been some disposals of the assets in the funds, $55 million worth. In total, that entity has about $1.9 billion of assets under management. Moving to Globalworth. Globalworth has got 71 properties, about 1.4 million square meters of space, and valuation of the assets or 29.4% is at ZAR 16.5 billion. The cost of our investment is ZAR 8.9 billion. At the current share price, the market value is ZAR 4.9 billion. The company did declare a dividend of EUR 0.15 compared to the prior comparable period of EUR 0.13. Probably a little bit flattering as well because the EUR 0.13 in the prior comparable period was negatively impacted by one-off expenses associated with the offer that was made for -- to all shareholders and the defense by the company, and that depressed the EUR 0.13. So the EUR 0.15 representing some good growth but offer a technically lower base in HY '22. Globalworth continues to show resilient performance despite the fact that I think fundamentals in that market are currently weakening. I'll talk to that a little bit more when I close on the prospect side. On the balance sheet, there's EUR 163 million of cash, EUR 300 million of undrawn debt facilities. So the balance sheet remains pretty robust. Property valuations in that market have also started coming off EUR 89 million negative revaluations, mainly on the office portfolio. Once again, the industrial doing well. Gearing is at 42.7%. There's not much maturity in the next 12 months. And the company did repay ZAR 323 million (sic) [ EUR 323 million ] corporate bond in June 2022 with cash that it had on balance sheet at that time. More than EUR 625 million worth of new financing has been secured in the 2022 calendar year. Bearing in mind, Globalworth has got a December year-end as opposed to, obviously, Growth, which is June. And there's no material debt maturities before March '25 for Globalworth. On the acquisition and development front, the bulk of activity took place in Romania. We acquired a small logistics facility. There's a fair bit of development underway in the industrial space, 104,000 square meters of additional 6 new facilities, and there are another 3 that are currently under construction for another 30,000 square meters. The -- in Poland, we are pretty much complete now with the refurbishment of 2 mixed-use properties, which are about 74,800 square meters in total. On the portfolio side, 37 assets in Poland, 34 in Romania, roughly split EUR 1.6 billion in each of those 2 markets. 206,000 square meters of space was let in '22, with 99 -- just short of 100,000 square meters let in the second half of the year. Vacancy has ticked up to 14.4%. Some of that is self-inflicted in as much as the 104,000 square meters of industrial facilities that were built were done on spec and are only 50% let as we speak. And then one of the other big movers on that vacancy number is one particular property in the CBD of Warsaw, which is called Warta Tower, which essentially is now vacant. So on a like-for-like basis, vacancy is about 11.6%. And if you strip out that Warta asset, which we are trying to sell, vacancies will be just under 10%. Total revenue for the 6 months was EUR 122.7 million. And then Capital & Regional briefly, 5 properties, 185,000 square, ZAR 7.2 billion of valuation. That's a 100%. We own 61% of Cap Reg. Our cost, ZAR 3.9 billion, and the market value at the moment is ZAR 1.3 billion. Share price trading about [ 58-odd p]. NAV is about [ 109 ] there or thereabouts, so also trading at a 60-plus or 60-odd percent discount to NAV. Final dividend declared also December year-end, 2.75p, that translates to about ZAR 50 million for us. And as mentioned before, we're going to reinvest that. We still very much believe in the value of that platform, Lawrence Hutchings and Stuart, the Finance Director, the strategy around needs-based retailing. We still firmly believe is a good strategy. We actually see that there are potentially good opportunities to grow that fund based on that strategy. Having said that, obviously, access to capital, in particular, debt capital at the moment is very, very, very tough, equally equity capital, though. Balance sheet. Valuations did decline. I think last time I spoke, I mentioned that we were confident that values had probably bottomed out. Unfortunately, there was another 5% down in the period. In many respects, I think, again, the U.K. had a couple of own goals with the political shenanigans of Liz Truss being in office for 2 weeks or something like that. And that certainly also spooked the capital markets considerably. But I still feel that we are very, very close to the bottom of that cycle in terms of downward valuations. Net LTV 41%. Debt maturity is 4.5 years, with an average cost of 3.6% and 98% fixed. We sold the land at Walthamstow, which -- to a developer who's building 495 apartments there that should support the shopping center. And then we also sold the Blackburn asset for $40 million -- GBP 40 million, rather, in August '22. So the focus -- management focus continues to be on the needs-based retailing. Operationally, pretty robust performance, 54 leases signed and at a 34% premium to previous passing rentals. Average rent per square foot is very cheap at GBP 14. Occupancy is 94%. Footfall grew by 7%. Rental collections, 98%. And there is a solid pipeline of good accretive repositioning projects within the portfolio. And I know that management are equally looking at some outside potential opportunities. So I didn't do particularly well. I still managed to go for a half an hour. But yes, it's better than last time, I think. I'll hand over to Estienne to just take us through the South African business and the funds management business and some of the debt slides. Thanks.

Thanks, Norbert. Okay. We're going to come back home. Welcome, everybody. Nice day in Cape Town, and it's nice being in South Africa. Things are starting to look up a little bit. So it's been busy. It's been a busy 6 months. In this time, Growthpoint let over 720,000 square meters. I think that's about -- just about all the office space in Cape Town, right? Our vacancies has marginally come down to single-digit levels at 9.9%. Unfortunately, that did come at renewal growth rate price, which is reduced by 16%, which is probably the worst we've ever printed, but I'll give you a bit of insight into that. Renewal success rate is -- has also reduced marginally. I'll also give you a bit of insight into that in the different sectors. Total expense ratio has ticked up marginally to 35.2%. Our arrears has started to come down post COVID, down to about ZAR 179 million-odd. Bad debts have also reduced to ZAR 12 million, and our provision as a result has reduced to ZAR 105 million. In the time -- this time is probably the first time in a while that we've started seeing some valuation improvements. And that equated for 1.4% or about ZAR 1 billion. We have sold in this time, ZAR 756 million worth of assets and acquired ZAR 244 million worth of strategic acquisitions. We're quite active on the development side, and we spent just short of ZAR 900 million there, and we've got another further commitment of ZAR 541 million. And then the South African balance sheet, so unconsolidated, if you'd like, is geared at 31.7%. So you can see it's quite conservatively geared at this stage. So we'll run through each one of the sectors. So industrial has lended down to 175 properties now. That's about 2 million square meters of space worth about ZAR 12.2 billion. We've seen vacancies reduce significantly in this time, down to 4.3%. So the market is -- the demand is reasonably good. And specifically on the coastal areas, so the Western Cape and KwaZulu-Natal, we've seen vacancies come down to 2-odd percent. Gauteng still lagging somewhat. But the market there is also reasonably firm, with vacancies at 5.6%. The renewal growth -- the renewals success rate was impacted by one transaction that we did where we let the client out of the specific property and we sold the property. And that obviously, in the 6-month period, had an impact given that it was 22,000 square meters. Done -- a lot of letting over 200,000 square meters of letting. And we've certainly seen that the market is very active. As a result of a couple of transactions where they were over rented on renewal, we saw the renewal growth rate print the 13.7%. So I would have expected and, in fact, indicated that we were willing to see a better number in this year. And I think as we go, I'm still reasonably confident that, that certainly should play out going forward given the fundamental dynamics. Escalations are also increasing in terms of the negotiations we're having with tenants. And arrears are coming down. As a result of those repeated negative reversions, obviously, the like-for-like is pretty flat. And what we have been doing is we've been taking advantage of the strong demand for industrial space to sell off nonstrategic smaller assets, specifically to owner tenants -- tenanted sort of scenarios and investors looking for assets. And we moved ZAR 286 million worth of industrial property there. We've got another ZAR 113 million that's pretty much held for sale and another ZAR 180 million that is in quite advanced stages of negotiation. Valuations have gone up by 2%, which is sort of indicating that the market -- the view by valuers is that the market is sort of firming up. If you look at the retail side. So the vacancies did increase marginally. Our core vacancy is still reasonably stable at 3-odd percent. The 6% number includes Bayside Mall and office space in Golden Acre, which went vacant, where we had a tenant move to another building. And as such, it increased the vacancies there somewhat. We are seeing increased letting from national retailers that have, through this period, acquired different formats and are looking to roll them out. But we're also seeing certainly some of the banks and some of the big box tenants have been giving up space or reducing space. Renewals over the period also lagged. And once again, I think the percentage was probably a little bit worse than I would have hoped to have seen, but we had Ster Kinekor in this period and 1 or 2 other specific transactions that had quite an impact on that. So as the year rolls out, we're hoping to see improvements. And many of these transactions were done a year ago, 1.5 years ago, and they only sort of kicked in now. So I think that is sort of still playing out. Escalations, pretty similar to prior. And then arrears is continuing to come down, which is a good thing. On the like-for-like growth rate, I mean, the negative reversions are still pulling back the like-for-like growth. But what is encouraging is that our trading density is growing at 8.5%. So that is your trade per square meter in the shopping centers and across the board now. Most of those -- most of that trade is actually exceeding the prior COVID period. So that's certainly moving into the right direction. And ultimately, this forms the base on which you negotiate rentals ultimately. Valuations, as a result, have firmed. So we had about ZAR 475 million worth of additional value on the portfolio. And we do have ZAR 0.5 billion worth of transactions in process on the disposal side. So also slimming down and repositioning that portfolio. On the office side, the portfolio has also slimmed down to 154 properties, which is 1.65 million square meters worth ZAR 26 billion. Vacancies have seem to have stabilized. It is a pretty tough market out there in the office space, specifically on Gauteng. Ironically, the Western Cape has reduced from sort of like-for-like period, already significantly to just below 12% and KwaZulu-Natal is at 5%. So definitely, Gauteng is where our biggest focus is in terms of the vacancy challenges. And there are some sort of green shoots in that we've started seeing some of the smaller tenants coming back into the market. In fact, I think load shedding is assisting us in that people can't run their generator for 12 hours at home just to keep their WiFi on so they can do work. So it's much better to come back to the office, run on the company's expense, and even the tea and your colleagues are there. So it's much more fun. So I think the sort of theme that office is dead is a myth, and we're certainly seeing that, that demand is slowly but surely coming back. So only the real asset managers that can afford to stay at home and runoff their inverters and solar power and all those kind of things. Right. So if we move on to the renewal side, I mean there, it's a pretty difficult market, as I've mentioned. We're keeping roughly 2 clients out of every 3. We did have 1 specific client that really -- of 16,000 that gave back space, and that certainly skewed the number in this 6 months and also skewed the renewal rate, which went negative 20%, which is probably the biggest it's been. But there was 120,000-square-meter client that impacted that. And without that client, the rate would have been around about 12.4%. So things are sort of improving. That same client also paid us late. So our arrears went up marginally, but we have recovered that. So I think even though arrears are coming down and we are getting better escalations over the period of time. Like-for-like growth remains under pressure, and we have been successful in selling 5 offices for ZAR 130-odd million, and we've got a further ZAR 300 million worth of transactions pending at this stage. And the idea is to ultimately reduce Gauteng exposure and try and increase our exposure in the coastal regions. Valuations, for the first time, have sort of stabilized and remained flat. Those valuations in certain areas, said area on average, the valuations have been written down by over the years, but close to 40%. So it's quite significant write-downs. Load shedding, I think we did put some media out. So some of this might be familiar to you. We've spent about ZAR 47 million in the 6 months. And I think probably if we look at the volume of load shedding in this period, it will probably be marginally more. In mitigation, we have sort of -- as regulations have lifted, we've planned a significant rollout of solar. So we've got an additional 13.9 megawatts of solar that we'll be rolling out in the period. And for most of our office properties today, there's full backup power. So if you're in a Growthpoint property, you can continue to work, the lights are on, it's all very, very good. So that certainly will hopefully serve us well when we're trying to let those properties. And as time moves on, the ideas is to bring more and more solar on to our various properties where it is feasible. Ultimately, the end of the day that this situation, I think, is regulatorily induced as I have mentioned earlier. And I do think as the regulations reduce and the private sector can step in, then the electricity situation will also improve quite a bit. On the Waterfront, so here's where the really good news starts. Here, it's a different world. It's a different country that David and the team live in. And we're very jovially celebrating with them. So our net property income was up 23-odd percent, okay? And if you compare that to sort of -- that's what we referred to as prior normal, right? In December '19, it's up above that at 2% above. The V&A has also seen with all the events coming back into the Cape Town area. Retail sales have come back very strong. Hospitality has come back very strong. And I mean December this year, they've had a record year, with sales over ZAR 1 billion, 28% up on December '19. And so vacancy is good demand. Everybody wants to be here. That's come down to 0.7%, so it's pretty practically full. Collections are very strong. Visitor numbers are up significantly and increased by 34%, still only 17% of prior to COVID levels. But given the international tourists are pretty back -- pretty much full back, we've seen strong, strong sales numbers come through the V&A. And then all the restaurants that suffered or closed down through the COVID period are back open. We've got some new restaurants. We would suggest you frequent. They're pretty spectacular. And I'm sure you'll all enjoy them. And the one decision that the V&A have made is that all the diesel costs that we are spending here to make sure that everybody can trade continuously, we're picking up the bill for that. On the retail side, 52% increase in retail sales for the 6 months, and that's a 23% increase on last normal. Vacancies are miniscule. Demand for space is very strong. Trading densities are significantly above the peers in this space. And we've opened 29 stores, with a GLA of 3,500 square meters during 6 months. On the marine side, we've seen a 45% increase there on industrial and marine for the 6 months. We've had the cruise season open with a bang. 18 big vessels come through already, and we handled 42,000 passengers. And every passenger that comes through, we levy a fee for handling the baggage and processing those passengers. So it is an income-generating venture in itself, and we're expecting another 52 vessels to come through in the next 6 months. And then obviously, the casual berthing in the marina has also performed exceptionally well. On the office side, the offices are full here. Demand is very, very strong. All the major tenants are actively increasing the occupancies, which is very different to what we're seeing in Gauteng. And certainly here, the negative reversions are really miniscule and come off the back of very high escalations. Investec, the development we're just doing behind us here, they have decided to take the full building. I think when they called everybody back to the office, it was my understanding that there were quite a few more staff living in Cape Town now than -- who used to live in Johannesburg apparently. So they needed the extra space, but we're very, very glad and they will be occupying towards the end of the year. The hotel side of things, RevPARs are up 18% on last normal levels. And the reality is that the average daily rate and occupancies at the V&A are up 14% and 3%, respectively, compared to pre-COVID level. So the market is definitely back. Occupancies are at 84%. And certainly, you can see that the tourists and the hotels -- I mean the other day, literally, you couldn't find a hotel room in Cape Town when the Grand Prix was on here. So -- and the residential vacancies have also come down quite significantly from 18-odd percent to 5%. If we look at the investments, our investments into the various funds. So the Growthpoint Healthcare Property Holdings fund has 8 properties today worth about ZAR 3.6 billion. That fund has raised capital of ZAR 2.5 billion, and Growthpoint is around about ZAR 800 million of that. In the period, we've raised another ZAR 500 million from the GIPF Namibia, and that reduced that money came through to Growthpoint. They subscribed for shares in the fund, and they reduced our convertible loan, and that took us down to effective holding of 39%. So the Healthcare Fund also acquired its first warehousing and distribution property. The Adcock Ingram head office and warehouse facility of 22,000 square meters, they've acquired a 50% share. The other 50% is held by Bidvest, the controlling shareholder of Adcock, and that has a very, very long lease of over 8 years. The -- after the acquisition, they've got capacity of ZAR 340 million on the debt provided by the IFC. And that will be used in development of a 50-bed, 2 theater extension to the Busamed Hillcrest Hospital as well as a health campus Cornubia in Durban. The growth in distribution has also been very strong for this fund. I think last year, [ speaking of ] ratio was about 7.5%. And the year before that was about 11.8%. This year, it's at 7%. 15% Manco has been sold to Kagiso for ZAR 41.6 million. And then the total debt on that fund, the gearing is a mere 12.3%. On the student accommodation side of things, that capital raise there was ZAR 1.7 billion. We hold 14% of the fund. The GIPF also put ZAR 250 million into that fund in October. They currently on the road are raising capital for that fund of ZAR 2.5 billion. There's a very, very long pipeline of opportunities, acquisitions and developments. One of the developments has recently been acquired right next to UJ, the University of Johannesburg in Auckland Park. And then there's also a development in the entrance to right opposite the Pretoria station, which will service [ that ] called Capitol Gate. And ultimately, post that acquisition, it will take the total number of beds to 8,700-odd, which makes us the largest student accommodation provider in the country. The Growthpoint the student accommodation also declared a dividend of ZAR 0.374. It is marginally smaller than the prior period. But the reality is that the compared period there has a skew to the start of the academic year, and that's why it's marginally higher. They are targeting ultimately to have assets of about ZAR 12 billion in that fund and to list it in the next 7-odd years. And then as everybody would have seen with the student riots recently, NSFAS has decided to reduce or cap the rental per annum per student to ZAR 45,000-odd. Now that has got a negative impact specifically on our Pretoria portfolio, but we are currently in negotiations through the association of student accommodation providers with the various government bodies to see whether there is some solution to the problem. Ultimately, the date in the specific fund currently is at 23.5%. Lango, the African-focused fund, currently has 11 properties worth about $612 million. We own 18-odd percent of it at a cost of ZAR 1.2 billion. We did invest $30 billion, which is included in that ZAR 1.2 billion in December in the fund after a successful capital raise for the fund of $125 million. The fund owns properties in Ghana, Nigeria and Zambia, with 3 pieces of land in Angola. The fund is considering taking the capital that it's raised, and it has a pipeline of acquisitions in Nairobi. And then it also is reducing its debt marginally to the 40-odd percent level. The Circle Mall, which was -- it's a mall in Nigeria, which was damaged in October '20, has also been fixed up, redeveloped and started trading in November 22. And then continuous challenges with the liquidity in naira still poses a level of difficulty for this specific company in terms of paying distributions. On the capital management side, we do have ZAR 39.6 billion worth of debt. As earlier mentioned, that's about 31.7% LTV. It was a very interesting 6 months in that we've raised long-dated debt for the first time in quite a while. It hasn't really been that freely available, but we secured unsecured privately placed bond with the IFC for 10 years in slugs of 10 and 7 years. And on the back of that, we had reverse inquiries, and we placed another ZAR 1.2 billion with institutions on 9.2 and 10 years. So that really, in a funny kind of way, seems to be gonging out the interest rate cycle or increased cycle potentially. But certainly, we do benefit from that long-dated debt. We do have about ZAR 950 million worth of bonds maturing in this period, but we do have sufficient capital to cover that. And the weighted average length of the debt book is reasonably impacted by the ZAR 7-odd billion worth of -- it's close to ZAR 8 billion worth of foreign dollar bond that we have to refinance in May. So we will be terming that out. The intention is to do that before the maturity of that debt. We do have facilities in place, as Norbert mentioned, so we've got ZAR 5.6 billion of facilities plus another EUR 206 million (sic) [ EUR 260 million ] to cover our debt responsibilities there. And our fixes are still fixed at 85%. The marginal rate has increased to 8.9% now. If you blend that with the international CCIRS, it brings it down to 6.4%. And our FX is pretty conservative. And GOZ is funded with CCIRS, and Globalworth and Lango is funded with U.S. bonds and CCIRS. Right. So Norbert, maybe if you just want to conclude for us, and you've still got 5 minutes.

Thanks, Estienne. So I'm going to go through the last couple of slides quite quickly. So I think we can leave some additional time for questions. I mean we've spoken, at length, I think, about GOZ. It has performed particularly well in the 6 months. I think the second 6-month period is not going to be as good given the skew with the lease cancellation fees that were recorded in this particular 6-month period. But notwithstanding that Australia is performing well as an economy; is performing well as a country; unemployment is sort of 3%, 4%; GDP growth is relatively low, but there is still growth at the moment, the company -- all these key financial metrics and key metrics, operating metrics are very positive. And so we continue to remain pretty positive and upbeat about the prospect for GOZ. We -- the company has provided its own guidance of distribution of $0.214. We did half of that now at $0.107. And we will -- they have given guidance of FFO as a range of $0.255 to $0.265. Globalworth, things are pretty stable, but it's fair to say that the markets there have become a little bit more challenged. So the outlook for growth for 2023 would be a bit slower than what was experienced in the past. I think the particular countries and the market within those countries all have different dynamics happening. I think in Poland, Warsaw is pretty strong, and there's a pretty positive outlook on the property and office accommodation outlook in Warsaw. The regional cities, the smaller regional cities are experiencing a few more challenges. So there's a bit of over development. So just prior to COVID, a number of developments were commenced. Those have all now materialized and have resulted in a bit of an oversupply in those markets. We also saw -- we've also seen that the major multinationals, your Googles, your Facebooks, your Microsofts, WIPROs, these were the guys driving the demand in those markets, in those secondary towns. They have slowed down in their employment as, I think, has been widely published. And they are from committing to 10,000 and 20,000 square meters for 10-year leases, which was the trend up until, let's say, and into COVID, there is now a situation where the guys are handing back space. So -- and the smaller cities being impacted more than the major city centers. In Romania, Bucharest office market is seeing a similar trend with regards to those big major multinationals. So vacancies are increasing there. Having said that, at least in Bucharest, there's very little new supply. So whilst there continues to be growth in the overall economy, that obviously will be positive and could -- there's enough capacity, I guess, there for the growth, but no new capacity being delivered. I think, once again, we are continuously looking at all of our options, maximizing our -- the value that we have in that investment. And -- but the new CEO, Dennis Selinas, is performing well, and we certainly have had some pretty positive engagements with Dennis in recent months. Capital & Regional, I think, has stabilized. Operationally, we showed you some statistics which talks to a resilient underlying operating performance. Dividends were reinstated. They are accelerating their community strategy. The dividend per share, I think, resulted -- of 2.75p for the final dividend resulted in 5.25p for the full year. The dividend policy is to pay 90% of EPRA earnings, and that is in line with U.K. REIT legislation. The company is considering 1 or 2 opportunistic opportunities, acquisitions, very much linked to debt access, to debt and debt funding. And invariably, let's call it, new debt for retail acquisitions isn't -- doesn't exist. So you see -- what you are seeing, though, is a number of the banks that have taken ownership of some of these assets in as much as the value of their debt has exceeded, let's say, the value of the assets. They've taken those assets on book, and they're now trying to get rid of some of those assets and are prepared to staple some debt against that asset as they get rid of it. And I think that does pose an opportunity. And then Lawrence and his team have detailed a sort of a road map where they believe they can grow the adjusted profit by 20% in the medium term. South Africa continues to -- I think the macro continues to be challenging. GDP growth anywhere between 1.2% and 0% predicted for 2023. As Estienne mentioned, some of the fundamentals are starting to improve. The industrial and retail sectors looking better, but office remains constrained. Balance sheet is in good nick. The growth prospects remain constrained due to the local and global environment being pretty volatile. Geopolitical tensions are adding uncertainty to the macroeconomic backdrop. Rising interest rates and inflation are impacting the consumer and valuations. We do have a pretty solid trading and development pipeline, and we continue to look to dispose of assets, optimizing the salary and portfolio. And Growthpoint Investment Partners, it does -- it is one of the few in the domestic environment, anyway, the sort of the growth target. Or it's one of the areas of the business we're actively looking to grow. We've targeted ZAR 30 billion of assets under management. That's pretty much a doubling from where we are today over the next 5 years -- 3 to 5 years. There is a solid pipeline there of opportunities for the existing funds. We are also considering different asset classes. I think the focus here is more on alternative asset classes, impact investment, social investment, targeting third-party capital for co-investment into those themes and not to necessarily create funds which compete with our current balance sheet assets in the form of retail office and industrial. We are seeing some good interest from institutional investors. We have employed dedicated resource to target these institutional investors and the asset consultants and, ultimately, getting into the -- to seek -- to present to the trustees of the investment committees of these pension funds, and we hope that, that will bear fruit in the near term. V&A Waterfront continues from strength to strength. There's nothing to suggest that from what we can see that things will not continue to improve. There's definitely good demand across all the segments, whether it be residential, retail, office, industrial, shipping, mooring, it doesn't matter what here at the Waterfront. It's looking good. The city seems to be doing all the right things by committing to events such as the Formula E and various other events, which attract tourists to the city and the spin-off to the Waterfront in that regard, whether it's [ mining in the harbor ], whether it's art fair, it doesn't really matter. These things have all got a very positive spin-off here at the Waterfront. So we do expect earnings before interest and tax or like-for-like revenues are in excess of what we had pre-COVID. But there obviously have been a few additional operational costs, and EBIT is expected to be at about 90% of pre-COVID levels. So just then to conclude, nothing new here really compared to where we were at, at the end of last year. I was -- I forgot actually at the outset when I started my introduction to mention the fact that I would say, other than the 6-month period to December 2020 when we were in the midst of the -- or in the eye of the storm of COVID having been through Level 5 lockdowns, we did our equity raise in that period, shoring up the balance sheet, other than that particular period, operationally, I would say that this 6-month period has been the toughest that we've experienced certainly in the 20-odd years that I've been involved with the business. So whilst we think -- whilst we produced modest growth, we think considering the backdrop, it's a reasonable performance. But we continue to be concerned about some of the macro challenges, both globally and locally. And as a consequence, we are still predicting that we will eke out some growth, albeit modest or, as we use the word muted, dips growth for the year through to June '23. So I think that concludes the formal presentation. I thank you all very much for attending and for your time and interest. We are available. I'm happy to see Estienne's indicating there might be a couple of questions coming from the online audience. We welcome questions. We would be happy to take some from the floor. But equally, we are here as a management team to -- for at least another hour or so afterwards, if you want to stick around, enjoy something to eat or drink and ask as many questions as you want.

So we've got 6 questions today. So because I am going to give you the difficult ones, I'll take the easy ones.

All right. Nothing has changed.

Right. So the first one is, can you provide us with some color, indicative pricing on the maturing Eurobond? What is the most likely refinancing outcome in terms of mix of cash or debt, euro, RCF and other euro facilities. And what are you expecting the terms on diesel spend, okay? So that's the second question. All in the same. So maybe I can give quick light just given the treasury. So I think the first thing that we intend doing is sort of breaking up that debt and spreading it over 3, 4 and 5 years. So maybe, let's call it, average maturity about 4 years. And we are basically talking to all the local financial institutions to obtain euro debt as well as one international financial institution. So we hope to have those facilities. I'm looking at [ Asher ] here, and I'd like to introduce [ Asher ]. So [ Asher ] has joined us from the beginning of the month. She is our new Group Treasurer, and we're very delighted to have her. And yes, we'll just maybe also take the opportunity to thank Dirkje Bouma, who's been with us for 8, 9 years already and wish you all the well -- all the best in the Netherlands. So I think that deals with that question.

Just to add. As we sit today, we got EUR 260 million of preapproved facilities in place that we intend drawing on to settle effectively, bearing in mind the $45 is swapped into euros, and we essentially will use the EUR 260 million to settle that -- the bulk of that debt. The rest will draw on some rand facilities. These are -- many of these facilities that we have in place are relatively short term. So we put in place a -- use 2-year facilities put in place about a year ago. So they've got about a year to 18 months left, and we are well advanced in trying to term those out. So that post the -- in fact, pre-30 June, we're hoping to get some of those termed out. Ultimately, looking to length that you will have seen our average term of debt is 2.7 years. It's too short. We've got KPIs in terms of our management KPIs, which suggest we need to be longer than 3. So we're going to be targeting certainly to get longer than 3. Estienne spoke earlier about the very -- and this is quite anomalous actually, if you consider where we are in South Africa and the South African backdrop. We've tapped ZAR 1 billion worth of 10-year money from the IFC, okay? It's a mix of 10-year and 7-year money from the IFC. Margin for the 10-year money is 210 basis points. Now I guess there are not many real estate companies out there in the world today who are seeing 10-year money being offered off the back of that IFC inquiry or placement. We've got reverse inquiries from domestic institutional investors. We did another ZAR 1.2 billion. 10 years and 9.2 years at same margin, 200 to 210 basis points. So we've got a properly functioning bond market. These were privately placed, but they're listed bonds. And whereas internationally, the bond markets are very, very inefficient, and the pricing is pretty ugly.

With rest -- to the international side, the next question. What type of opportunities would you consider offshore? Would this be taking advantage of mispricing in the public market or private market opportunities? What are the like -- what are the key investment criteria for going offshore?

Look, I'll answer that by just saying, look, we're not actively looking at anything offshore at the moment other than our existing investments. So I think we fully appreciate the fact that we are relatively capital-constrained, and the only available capital at the moment would be more debt capital. We don't want to be pushing our 38% LTV anywhere further north of where it's at. We target to stay below 40%. So whilst we've always been pretty opportunistic, and we're happy to keep an open mind. If there were to be potentially some M&A deals where you're looking at discount to NAV, swapping shares for another discount to NAV but, on the balance, we look -- we think our discount is smaller than the other discount, those kinds of opportunities, we've always kept an open mind to. But there's -- we're not considering anything actively in that regard at the moment.

Okay. Thank you. Then how did we get to the 82.5% payout ratio? Is there a formula that we can apply? Or how did we get the liquidity...

Look, I think we mentioned -- we spoke about this, I think, at the year-end results 6 months ago. At that time, we had paid 80% for the first half. We felt a bit more confident on our liquidity outlook. We were feeling but exposed given the bond, the massive 7 billion plus bond refinance that we had to deal with. And we had put facilities in place to cover all of that. So we felt a bit more confident and took a view that we could increase the payout ratio marginally from 80% to 82.5%. The 85% -- the second half of last year was 85%, but that was to average it out at 82.5%. And we'd like to think we're going to stick with the 82.5-odd number. We -- when thinking about the payout ratio, and there's no magic formula, but just to provide a bit of insight. The Growthpoint Board and management are thinking very carefully on how the business can, let's call it, self-fund without taking on more debt or without taking on -- or the need to issue more equity. So we look holistically at the cash flows coming in from our rentals. We look at the dividend that we're paying. We look at the level of asset sales that we're able to achieve. We look at the level of investment that we're making, whether that be through taking scrip dividends on the international investments or whether we do new developments in the industrial space or new investment into the funds. We look at holistically at all of that with a view to -- and as well as the cash retained from the dividend to find a position where we're not needing to go out and borrow another ZAR 2 billion or ZAR 3 billion or ZAR 4 billion. So if we have to borrow, hopefully, it's smallish amounts, potentially if we do well on asset sales, perhaps we can net -- bring our debt on a net basis, bring our debt levels down. So we're looking to be more self-funding, [ for lack ] of a better description. And the dividend payout ratio debate is informed by that whole discussion.

Next question is what's the discount to premium on the Paul Smith Anderbolt transaction? So we -- the value of the sale was about ZAR 50 million, and the loss we took was ZAR 1.3 million, so it makes a 2.6%, I think. And then a complicated question but ultimately speaks to the Australian dividend's tax on foreign shareholders is 30%. If no frank -- with no franking credit, can we expect the 14% dividend withholding tax on GOZ dividend to increase to 30% over time? So [ Toby ], there's a special tax dispensation for managed investment trusts out of Australia. And our historic average has been in and around about 10% withholding tax. The specific period because of those early settlements, which pushed the revenue up, the withholding tax percentage applied to revenue is 15%. So it wouldn't -- typically wouldn't exceed 15%, and then on interest is 10%. So the blended on the specific, and they calculated every 6 months for every dividend. And we -- so we expect it to probably return to around about the 10% level. So -- but it is a little bit more complicated. I'm happy to chat to anybody in more detail on how that tax works.

We don't see it going to 30%.

No, definitely not going to 30%. So that shouldn't exceed 15%. So that should be the sort of top end. The only time that it will marginally exceed that is if you hit the 15% level and on the retained component in the company, which we haven't received, we also pay tax on our proportional piece. So that might push it to -- I think the highest we've paid is about 16.5%. So this was quite anomalous because of these early terminations that pushed the revenue up because you do have it, they pass through allowances that cover the dividend to some extent. And that's it. Any other questions locally here?

I just wanted to know whether the [indiscernible] will be possible [indiscernible] for some legislations...

I don't think it's on.

I think it's mainly for the online, guys. It's not for if we can hear necessarily, yes.

And then obviously, the DRIP option, why are you referring to by ZAR 200 million of tax rather than offer a small DRIP to retain a similar level of income?

Okay. Maybe just repeat the question because I don't know if the online people...

All right. I think for those online who perhaps didn't hear that, I think the question is around the tax, the leakage of tax in South Africa. We, I think, for this particular period, probably about ZAR 107 million. For a full year, we think it's probably about double that. Is the tax leakage from retaining ZAR 1 billion-odd of cash from paying out 82.5%, not 100? And then the second part of that question talks to the -- you're potentially offering the DRIP on the South African share. So I think nobody likes to pay tax. That's fair to say. I think the consequence, I guess, of our actions of wishing to retain circa ZAR 1 billion of cash is that we have to pay that tax. There are definitely some allowances that we'll be able to claim in relation to the solar rollout. Not [indiscernible], [indiscernible] is more of a tax expert than I am, but we -- so we can look to reduce the effective tax rate, I think, on that, but I'm not sure that with the level of investment we're making, I think we're doubling our solar capacity from 14 megs to 27, 28-odd megs. That's probably an investment of ZAR 200-odd million. It's -- it will provide a buffer but not reduce the liability entirely. In relation to DRIP, I think our view is just that at the moment, given the level of share price relative to NAV, the dilutionary impact of issuing shares at these levels wouldn't justify the -- to -- wouldn't justify trying to save that amount of tax. So we -- obviously, we are still sensitive, I guess, to the discount and the equity raise that we did in 2020, and many of the investors are still in the room here, which are very unhappy with that. And so as a rule, we're not looking to be issuing any new shares at these sorts of levels of share price.

[indiscernible] but revenue is up a hell of a lot more. I think your cost up 67%. I think you mentioned try to pass on most diesel cost, but you don't here. What would that 25% have been if it wasn't for diesel cost if you only had to pay Eskom exorbitant electricity prices?

That was the diesel cost was ZAR 22 million, right?

ZAR 21 million, yes, for the 6-month period.

On top of that, it wouldn't have made a material difference, I don't think.

So I think we were just -- again, whilst David is not going to like me for saying this, but he did acknowledge that when I spoke to him earlier. The number is flattering. The Waterfront number is very flat, but you've got to put it in perspective that the 6 months to December '21 was obviously still very heavily impacted by COVID. So your base was fairly low for that particular period. We obviously -- 23% growth is a wonderful number, and I think Dave and his team are going to take every bit of credit for that, and so should they. But just bear in mind that the base in the comparable period was heavily impacted by COVID. We are back to pre-COVID levels. I mean some of the -- just the pure turnover numbers, well in excess of pre-COVID. But the -- certainly, the operating costs have increased considerably. There's been some staff cost increases. There have been -- clearly, there's a diesel impact, and the rates and taxes keep -- we've had to -- in fact, we almost -- permanently in court with the city on rates and taxes, we fortunately won our last appeal. But notwithstanding that the effective increase is still well in excess of inflation. So -- and the Waterfront is an operating precinct is -- it's an expensive place to run. You're getting the premium rentals. You're getting the demand. I think the Waterfront has positioned itself as being able to operate -- every aspect of a Waterfront operates when there's load shedding. So people now understand that. They're happy to come to the Waterfront for a meal, for a movie, for whatever activity they can do when there is load shedding. And that is coming -- you're seeing it in the turnovers, but there is obviously a cost associated with that as well.

Anybody else?

[ Chris ]?

[indiscernible] you reached, and there was a recovery coming. It looks like you were right, but it's been a lot tougher with all these [indiscernible] events, you name it. Do you ever see a strong recovery?

Clairvoyant. You can look into the future, right.

I don't know if there's -- Estienne and me are sometimes on different pages in terms of our level of optimism or pessimism. Estienne's a bit more of a bull. But the bulls have lost 8 out of [indiscernible] team.

You don't have to get nasty now. No reason to get nasty.

So my personal view is I think the recovery will be moderate. I just looked at all the -- this week, in fact, yesterday, when you're sitting there waiting to be interviewed on the radio, you're listening to some of the other news items. Manufacturing output is down. Mining output is down. Business confidence is all-time low. In fact, liquidate -- company liquidation, 1,920, I read some article from somebody at 1 of the legal firms that put on the article. It's tough. It's really, really hard there. I don't know. We've got politics. We got overriding things. I don't think -- I don't want to make political statements, but I don't think anybody is jumping for joy based on the recent cabinet reshuffle. We have an election coming next year. It is -- I think it's going to remain tough globally. Obviously, things are also still challenged. And then you have these other shocks, which you've just recently seen now with that -- the Silicon Valley Bank. So I guess, at best, we're optimistic, but -- for a recovery, but I can't see a strong -- personally, I can't see a strong recovery. Any other questions? [ Murray ]?

Norbert, I think you spoke a couple of times about GWI and the fact that the situation with 3 shareholders, each holding about 1/3 is not something that can happen forever. Maybe you can just give us an update?

Yes. So look, I don't -- unfortunately, I don't have much of an update. All I can say is that the new CEO is in place. Dennis Selinas is not going out there. But there is a tour to -- we are hosting a -- co-hosting a tour to Eastern Europe in May -- end of May. And there will be an opportunity for any of the investors who want to participate in that to obviously go and view some of the assets, [ give you ] an update on the market but also meet the new CEO. I'm -- I've got a good feeling with Dennis. I think he's very astute. He knows the market. He's also been operating in Bucharest for the last 10-odd years. And so -- from that perspective, I'm comfortable that with Ioannis having left, with Dimitris having left, we've got a good pair of hands now with Dennis. Having said that, he's come into a much more challenging environment, both in Poland and Romania. And he's certainly going to have his work cut out for him. At the shareholder level, if anything, we are probably more -- I wouldn't say we were more aligned per se. But certainly, there's no animosity. It's just we've got different agendas. We've got -- everybody has got their own challenges. I'd say we've got a lot of challenges, but I'd argue they might even have greater challenges. So CPIs, then got a lot of debt in the debt capital markets that need to be refinanced. They're trading at -- okay, they don't trade. But -- so their share price is irrelevant. But around town on the other hand, there's a share price of EUR 2.20, and I haven't looked at their NAV recently, but I think the NAV is closer to 8 or north of 8, and [ Tom's ] nodding his head. So they've got probably bigger challenges than what we even have. It's very immaterial to them. It's quite material to us. But I think there's no urgent need to do anything at the moment. A solution, to my mind, will require new fresh cash. Okay. And the question is who is going to be buying at NAV when you can buy the entire global real estate market at a 40% discount to NAV and are any of the investors that desperate to sell at the moment at a massive discount to NAV, where new investors might want to come in at a 40% discount to NAV or a 50% discount to NAV. I think the short answer there is no. So I think you're going to be in a bit of a holding period, and we're going to continue to look to find a solution, but there is nothing pressing or urgent or glaringly obvious at the moment that we could put forward as a possible solution.

Any other questions? Okay I think we've exhausted all the questions.

Yes. Thanks very much once again for your time and attendance. We really appreciate it. Always good to see -- thank goodness that we're back in a world where we can meet in person and not having to do everything virtually. Since we -- since COVID, we've actually decided that we do the half year results in Cape Town, the year-end results in Joburg. We will continue to sort of evaluate that. We used to do -- we used to come and present twice. I think this works fairly efficiently from what I can tell. If it doesn't work for you, then let us know, and we can always reevaluate. But we hope to see you in person again in 12 months' time. Unless you want to come to Joburg, you can come and see us at [ anytime ]. Thanks.