Hamburger Hafen und Logistik Aktiengesellschaft (HHFA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we are glad to see that so many of you have dialed into our conference call today. I hope this means that you are all safe, and more important, healthy. When we last spoke in August, the recent data suggested that global activity continues to gradually firm despite the continued spread of the virus. Actually, we saw a brief return to normal daily life over the summer. But it turned out to be just a short respite. As announced by many experts, a second wave of coronavirus-related infection is flooding the world. Despite the fact that vaccine seems to be in reach, still, nobody knows when this pandemic will be over. So I hope that many of you have already returned to working from home, as we have also taken precautions and increased safety standards again to protect our employees. The coronavirus continues to spread throughout the world with different speed and intensity in the countries affected. Over 48 million people worldwide have tested positive for the virus, according to Johns Hopkins University. The number of new infections in the U.S.A., again, reached a high at almost 10 million. No other country in the world has ever counted so many infections. In Germany, the numbers are also rising sharply. Since November 2, new measures have been in effect that largely restrict public life. More and more, other countries in Europe have already shut down every day life again in view of the rapid spread of the coronavirus. In many places, it already looks like the lockdown could take longer than originally planned. The return to normal is not a question of days, but unfortunately, a question of weeks and months. After unprecedented falls in economic output in spring, the economy recovered in summer. Nonetheless, the strength of the global rebound is quickly fading as persistently high new daily COVID-19 cases hinder activity. Winter could get worse again due to increasing infections. The steadily increasing number of new infections makes a reliable economic forecast basically impossible. Therefore, I would like to begin with a look at the general economic conditions for the first 9 months of 2020. On the next slide, you can see that the macroeconomic environment for our business remains highly volatile. The negative impact on global business activity for the first 9 months of 2020 was less negative than previously anticipated. According to the IMF's most recent world economic outlook, global activity is expected to recover slightly in the third quarter, especially the Chinese economy, which was hit by the virus first, remains on the road to recover, even though the pace remains below expectations. Still, China is likely to be the only major economy to grow this year. According to the Beijing Statistics Office, the world's second largest economy grew by 4.9% in the third quarter compared to the previous year. This led to a growth of 0.7% in the first 9 months of 2020. Even if the tight grip of the coronavirus pandemic loosened somewhat in the third quarter compared to Q2, all other economies are still struggling with the effects. If you look at the sector development, perspectives for the global throughput development brightened up a bit. However, the Northwest European shipping region continued to decline by 4% in Q3. With these preliminary remarks, I would like to come to the core of today's call, our financial results for the first 9 months of 2020. The strong decline in container throughput and transport that we saw in the first half year was slightly less pronounced in the third quarter. Nevertheless, compared to our prior year figures, our group KPIs, revenue, EBITDA and EBIT, for the first 9 months 2020 were all sharply down. Having said that, the ongoing challenging environment does not prevent us from continuing to breathe life into our strategic areas of activity. This means strengthening our core business fields while searching for new profitable growth opportunities and digital solutions. For example, HHLA is set to become a majority stakeholder of Piattaforma Logistica Trieste, a multifunction terminal in the Italian seaport of Trieste. The terminal gives us the opportunity to actively participate in new and changing cargo flows. Our rail subsidiary, Metrans, is also responding to the growing significance of the Adriatic region for logistics supply chains with its construction of 2 rail terminals in Hungaria. Metrans has also invested in 2 facilities in Germany this year, bringing the number of terminals in its intermodal network to 17. We continue to invest while keeping a close eye on our cost structures at all times. This is why our liquidity is sufficient to meet all payment obligations. Against the backdrop of this development, we continue to assume that 2020 will fail to match last year's exceptional results. The shortfall resulting from the lockdown in early summer can no longer be fully offset, even though a key driver of our business, the Chinese economy, is growing again. So let's have a look at our numbers for the first 9 months, which certainly reflect the developments I just described to you. Roland will guide you through the figures in more detail. Therefore, I would like to pick out just 1 or 2. Revenue declined markedly, while EBIT fell even more strongly. In an asset heavily business -- in an asset-heavy business like ours, downscale in OpEx is a major task and one of the focal points for us as management. The strong EBIT decline hit our return on capital employed as our average capital employed remained virtually unchanged. With this, I would like to hand over to Roland to comment in more detail the throughput and the transport trends.

Yes. Good afternoon, and thank you, Angela. I will start with some remarks on volume development and try to give you more color on the dynamics. Container throughput recorded a serious decline in Q2, which bottomed out in mid-June. The pace of this decline lost a bit momentum in the third quarter. Still, throughput volumes dropped strongly by 11.2% in the reporting period. In Hamburg, we had to face blank sailings as a result of the coronavirus pandemic and the loss of a Far East service. Feeder traffic with the Baltic region also decreased and could not be offset by the recovery of volumes in the German-speaking regions. The international terminals held up quite well. However, Odessa and Tallinn were affected by the pandemic circumstances more strongly in Q3 than in Q2. Container transport saw a moderate decrease of 4.6%, helped by higher demand in Q3. In rail transportation, the significant and, for the certain routes, dramatic fall in maritime traffic from the North German seaports was partially offset by strong growth in continental traffic. The strong recovery in transport volumes in Q3 helped minimize the impact of decreases across all routes in the first half of the year. The next slide shows you how these declines in container throughput and transport translated into financial figures. In the Container segment, the 11.2% drop in throughput volumes resulted in a revenue decline of 9.4%. Two effects are responsible for this disproportionate development. On the one hand, there was an advantageous modal split with a high proportion of hinterland volume; and on the other, storage fees increased temporarily due to the longer dwell times brought about by weather-related delays and blank sailings caused by the pandemic. Average revenue per container handled at the quayside rose by 2%. Angela already mentioned before, the downscaling of OpEx needs stricter control. We were able to lower material and personnel expenses, partly caused by the reductions in volumes. However, these efforts were partially mitigated by increased maintenance and service costs. The operating result, EBIT, declined as a result of falling volumes. So let's move on to the next slide on the Intermodal segment. Here, the decline in revenue was slightly more pronounced than that of transport volumes. Despite a slight increase in rail share, which is normally a positive for revenue, average revenue per TEU decreased due to the disproportionately strong decline in freight flows with longer transport distances. As well maintained our service offer and responded to significantly lower demand for transportation, OpEx could not be reduced in line with the decrease in volume. As a consequence, EBIT fell by 18%. In addition to falling volumes and revenue, this marked decrease was mainly due to increased fluctuations in import and export cargo with the resulting fall in capacity utilization on rail systems. Still, the EBIT margin was at a sound level of almost 80%, which is an outstanding result given the current circumstance. Let's turn briefly to the Logistics segment, where we have pooled vehicle logistics, consulting activities, digital projects and participations. The vehicle logistics division recorded a significant loss in revenue as a result of falling volume, while consultancy revenue was also down considerably on the previous year. Additive manufacturing technologies were first included in the consolidated group in the same quarter last year. Expected start-up losses for some of the digital projects in new growth areas turned EBIT negative for the reporting period. At-equity earnings remained positive but fell sharply short on prior year. Come back to the Port Logistics subgroup as a whole. In our earnings bridge, the effects from challenging environment described before continued to trickle down the P&L. Net financial expenses decreased compared to the prior year. The lower results decreased the tax payments and led to a tax rate somewhat higher than in the previous year. Minorities decreased corresponding to the decreasing results in the Container segment. In total, net profit showed a strong decline of 59%, leading to an EPS of EUR 0.45 per A Class share. As usual, on my last 2 slides, we will have a closer look at cash flows. Given the business development and results as described, it is obvious that cash flow from operating activities decreased accordingly. Although investing cash flow looks lower, we continued to invest in our business. The CapEx program was initiated in 2018, is ongoing but at a lower pace. However, in the prior year, we made some payments for short-term deposits, which we did not repeat this year. Financing cash flow was influenced by the dividend payment that was paid up to our shareholders in Q3. Since the major -- majority of shareholders, 33.3%, opted for a scrip dividend, the cash outflow this year was significantly lower than in 2019. Overall, our available liquidity as of 30th of September stood solid at EUR 201.8 million. Turning to the next slide, we can see the breakdown of our indebtedness. With the further progress of the container -- coronavirus pandemic, sorry, liquidity remains the primary focus for us as management. Securing cash flows and providing sufficient cash to meet all due payment obligations is our main interest. Our financial position supports this target. While there is a total of EUR 1.37 billion in liabilities on our balance sheet, lease obligations and pension provisions account for the major share. Net financial debt only accounts for EUR 111 million. As of 30th of September, we had financial funds of, as mentioned before, approximately EUR 200 million, with cash and cash equivalents amounting to EUR 182 million. As I already mentioned, we proposed a scrip dividend to our shareholders on our virtual AGM. The majority of our shareholders decided to receive the dividend in the form of listed shares in HHLA. This supported our liquidity position, and we are grateful for the support of our shareholders. I think that concludes my remarks. So let's hand back to Angela.

Thank you, Roland. Ladies and gentlemen, the macroeconomic prospects as of today have brightened compared to the midyear. The International Monetary Fund has revised its outlook since the second quarter GDP outturns in the large advanced economies, which were not as negative as they had formerly projected. Currently, the experts are projecting somewhat less severe but still deep recession in 2020 relative to the June forecast. Additionally, China's return to growth was stronger than expected, and there were encouraging signs of a more rapid recovery in the third quarter. By contrast, prospects in some emerging markets and developing economies have worsened significantly since infections are on the rise again. This means that although the global economy is picking up, the ascent will likely be longer, unsteady and uncertain. With regard to our sector development, the risk for 2020 remain weighted on the downside. Even though Drewry recently lowered the anticipated declines in the throughput prospects for 2020 compared to the July forecast, a second wave outbreak has the potential to shutter the fragile economy recovery with a consequential impact on global port handling. Against that background, the degree of uncertainty continues to be high as the extent and duration of the pandemic cannot be predicted. We kept our guidance nearly unchanged. We still expect container handling revenue and EBIT to record a sharp decline at the end of 2020. Following the strong development of container transport in Q3, we have changed the outlook from a previously strong to a significant decline by year-end. It goes without saying that volumes in the Intermodal segment won't be able to match the prior year levels. However, as Roland explained, we have sufficient liquidity to successfully navigate these stormy waters and take responsibilities wherever they arise. Ladies and gentlemen, Roland and myself will now be happy to answer your questions.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Adrian Pehl from Commerzbank.

Actually, 3 questions from my side. First of all, basically, on the feeder ratio, has been trending down quite substantially now over the quarters. And if I do my math correctly here, then we are now below 20% in Q3. So I was wondering what are the elements that, first of all, drove it down? And how can you mend the situation? Or what are the drivers for potential improvement going forward? If you could remind us on that. And secondly, on volumes in Q4. I mean, obviously, we had nice volumes, in particular, in Intermodal. Actually, congrats to the quarterly record. That's quite nice. Nevertheless, what we learned from container liners is actually that they are quite solidly optimistic, if I should phrase it this way, on our volumes in Q4. Is there any reason why your picture on the container side of things should look different? Or is there any reason why Intermodal should not continue on the road to recovery? Thirdly, on the cost base that you showed in Q3, which was actually kept stable, as we discussed a little bit in the Q2 call as a potential, which you actually realized, so very good. And is there any change to that in Q4? Should we now go for higher cost -- operating cost in Q4? Or should we more or less kind of copy what we saw in Q3?

Thank you very much for your questions. I would start and then hand over to my colleague. I would start with the Q4 expectations from our customers. In general, we see, as we have seen as well in Q3, that the planning of our customers is 3 to 4 weeks ahead. And we have seen as well a highly volatile shift from week to week. So the trend overall is positive, I can confirm this, through the year-end. And it looks stable, but we are very cautious as we have an agile planning, which we do on a 4-week space. Because we have seen that in the first 9 months, due to the pandemic effect, basically, there has been a high volatility, which was caused by our customers. So saying that, we are slightly optimistic through the year-end. So far, there is a stable situation, but we have to confirm once again that we need to be agile as we see that the pandemic effect is basically a summary -- or basically is summed up with the effects now of stormy weather and some delays, significant delays and the Christmas time. So it is a certain volatile situation. That's why we are extremely cautious. But, to your question, our customers are solidly positive, and usually, as we are in the same market, we are as well. In terms -- your question to the cost, Roland is giving you details.

Yes. As you mentioned before, I think cost control is tight still. And we succeeded to a certain extent here in Q3. On one -- what helped us is the increasing utilization in the Intermodal segment. I think this was evident. On the other hand, with regard to adjusting OpEx in the Container segment, we moved on and had some progress in the developments with regard to Q4. I think the principal characteristics of the business model, it's utilization-driven. And on the other hand, given the seasonality volumes in Q4, besides the bullish statements of shipping liners, might decline a little bit. And this means from the cost side, I think Q3 is maybe a little bit too optimistic to take it for guidance purposes. But I see no dramatic changes in the fourth quarter so far.

And maybe let me just add with regards to the projections of our customers. The big problem in the first 9 months has been the blank sailings, so basically scheduled sailings from our customers, which then have turned on the terminal side into a no-show quote. And we have seen a high degree of blank sailings in April, in May and in June. And if I take the quote for the second quarter, then it's, on average, rather 4% to 5%. So that means if we see a stabilization of blank sailing quote through Q4, then basically, it's a sign of stabilization. But as Roland has mentioned, I think it's too early to say that you can take it as a forecast, Q2 as a base for Q4.

And I think there was a third question regarding the feeder split. Yes, it's right. It has gone down. I took notice of the breakdown to give you a more precise explanation about this development. With the ongoing pandemic, Russia and especially Scandinavia, and I'm referring to Sweden and all of them, they have been heavily affected by pandemic effects. And this is reflected to a certain extent in the temporary declining feeder volumes that we reported in Q3.

So that will potentially look better in Q4. Is that what we should take here?

I think the transparency on the impact of the second wave of the pandemic is limited. Hopefully, yes, but I'm not in a position to properly forecast it. I simply addressed the point, what is -- the reason why the feeder ratio has gone down temporarily.

Okay. Fair answer. Just one quick follow-up actually on cost again. I saw that the holding costs, let's say, consolidation, holding, et cetera, that influences segment delta versus the group EBIT, was at EUR 11.8 million, which I think is a new kind of record high. Has there been anything special in there, first of all? And secondly, is there a chance that we should see a better result on that in the next potentially coming quarters?

Well, our holding group is as well a seeding ground for activities and for development as well as they hold quite a few projects right now, which are geared towards more efficiency on our processes. I don't know, Roland, have we talked about S/4HANA so far?

No. Not yet. But to add on Angela's comment, on a pre-inauguration stage, we allocate costs for new activities and new ideas in the holding. And of course, we do this actively. So you shouldn't be surprised too much if it temporarily goes up to a certain extent, as outlined before. And on the other hand, with regard to administrating, it's clear, we change -- we will replace the C3 system by S/4HANA in the next quarters to come. And we prepare for that change, and we would take the opportunity to set up the system on a greenfield approach. This means reflect all current procedures, trying end-to-end administrative processes to make sure that the data flow will go through the organization as efficiently as possible going forward. And of course, we have some project cost now to carry and to bear. On the other hand, we are aiming at higher efficiency in all our administrative departments.

Like the research and M&A costs we had for Trieste.

Next question is from the line of Nikolas Mauder from Kepler Cheuvreux.

Three from my side. First, a quick one on a comment made regarding the Container segment margin. You called it acceptable. Can you maybe shed some light what that implies going forward, what you think about the margin here? Second question, it seems like you're expanding your intermodal network to the East and to the West. Can you maybe provide some color how you think about opening new terminals? Is, for instance, the return on invested capital in your network rising with each new terminal? Or is it actually falling because the attractive ones are already inside? And how many terminal opportunities do you potentially see out there in the midterm? And the third question would be, can you provide us sort of an update on your back-and-forth battle on like Far East services with Eurogate? I think they sent out quite dramatic messages during the third quarter, saying that they are too expensive and that efficiency is too low. Do you think there will be further service losses to them going forward? And in that context, can you also update us on the cooperation talks with them?

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Mauder. A lot of questions. Let me start with the last one. No surprise to you that we are not commenting the ongoing discussions that we are having. It's still at some deals farther at a first discussion base. In your question with regards to the terminals on the Intermodal side, let me phrase it this way. We are not investing, not in any single one terminal which is not living up to our expectations in terms of profitability. And all our terminal landscape is basically built towards our network on a pan-European base. And therefore, please forgive me that I'm not giving you the landscape of further developments, but you can be assured that every step of further expansion in this field is done properly to support the growth as well as the profit growth expectations that we are having. With regards to the container margin, Roland?

Yes. Three comments on that. First of all, you have a closer look at the figures. We posted a margin for the first 9 months staying at 12.5% positive. So -- and in absolute terms, the segment contributed to the group results amounting to EUR 68.6 million. So -- and we are dealing in an environment that is very much impacted by the pandemic development on one hand and where competitors of us, and you commented a little bit on our German competitor, report losses. So this is the situation. Now what's our assessment with regard to the EBIT margin? I think given the current environment, I think 12.5% is not too bad. And this is a very hands at comment on what we achieved so far, to be frank. But our corporation is domiciled here in Hamburg. So this is about [ that ]. What are we aiming at? This is completely different, this is clear. But first of all, we have to recover, the pandemic problem has to be solved. This is what we hopefully will see in the next 2 years to come, and then we come back to the margins that we are aiming at in a more normalized world. And looking back at the figures, we have reported pre-pandemia, the segment has delivered approximately 18% to 20% EBIT margin. And we are aiming at more, keeping all the measures in place with regard to increased efficiency, et cetera, et cetera, heading for a higher degree of automation on our terminals. I think this is information that we explained in previous calls already. So this is my view on the current margin.

Okay. Maybe quickly following up on your Container segment margin remarks. So at first glance, I had the impression that you're indicating a lower margin level once you're on the other side of this pandemic. But now you said that you're aiming for more than what you previously had. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on sort of the drivers. You mentioned the efficiency programs, which implies that you're not sort of having to give those away in terms of pricing. Is that a right idea, like idea of thinking about it?

First of all, and this would be my fourth remark, this is a fixed cost-heavy business. So what you have to factor in -- and this relates to the volume utilization side. I think the operational gearing in principle is clear. So if the market recovers, this should give us headroom for higher utilization. And if you combine this with all our measures in place to increase efficiency, this should lead us to a margin progression going forward. To which extent remains to be seen, but in any case, the current margin stays at 12.5%. But going forward, I think there is headroom for margin progression.

And I think you have to take into consideration, Mr. Mauder, that we have made our investments in terms of the size of vessels. And therefore, I think we -- besides the price in the market, capabilities of handling volumes on the water side as well in the hinterland side is decisive. So it's always a package of all of it.

[Operator Instructions] Next question is from the line of Roland Vetter from Praxis Partners.

There is an increased focus on low-carbon transport, especially for cargo, going forward. Your Intermodal should be normally benefiting from that trend. Could you maybe tell us how you think you are positioned? And also, what could be the potential long-term impact on growth and profitability of Intermodal?

Well, I can just confirm that, obviously, our Intermodal business is benefiting from the overall trend from putting from the streets to the trains, the volumes and the containers. We have developed within our Intermodal group several projects and products, even more important. One is called Pure. The other one is Balanced Logistics product, which is offering to our customers a neutral footprint of 0 emission. This is something which the customers are starting to see as a further value. And therefore, we believe that the carbon footprint of every single customer in the future will be as well handled through carbon-neutral terminal handling as we do here in Hamburg, at HHLA, in combination with the Metrans Intermodal network that we are offering.

Okay. Can you maybe give some ideas about what kind of growth rates you could achieve in the Intermodal on the back of these trends? What's like medium- to long-term growth rates you think are possible?

It's very difficult to predict because this is something that is depending of the utilization of the customers. Here in Hamburg, we have already more than 48% of all containers going on train. We believe that you can further develop this. So if there is a growth area, then it's definitely in the Intermodal area.

Okay. And a second question, if you don't mind, on efficiency. You have been doing a good job now in the last quarter increasing your efficiency, bringing the costs down. Let's assume economy bounces back, and the volumes come back in 1 or 2 years. Would you expect that also all of your costs come back? Or do you think that some of these efficiencies can be kept for the longer term?

We are working on efficiency targets. One of the most important thing is the transition of the CTB terminal in Hamburg. And this is a mid- to long-term transition depending on the utilization, the degree of recovery of volumes until it pays back on in terms of margin progression and EBIT contributions in absolute terms. So one thing is the recovery short term with regard to the volumes hampered by the pandemic development. The other thing is where -- which degree of completion, where we have reached in the next 2 years. And the answer with regard to degree of completion is we won't be through with the transition within 2 years time frame. But there remains a lot of potential in the more midterm, if you -- in the next 3 to 5 years game that we see. And if we are lucky, we can utilize the more efficient terminal in the years to come. And then it will translate into margin progression and higher contributions to the group results.

On the short term, obviously, we are benefiting as well from the prospect that our employees are not talking about digitalization but living this from a day-to-day perspective. This will have as well an effect maybe on utilization of office space and other topics. So this is still something to be seen. But as other companies as well, we see there the trend not to home office but to mobility officing. So basically, mobile working that this trend as well works, not obviously in all our areas but in some of our areas very well.

Next question is a follow-up question from the line of Adrian Pehl from Commerzbank.

Actually, a question on your new acquisition -- or the concession in Trieste. I was just wondering if you could run through a little bit through the metrics. When is that actually going to start, when you see volumes being consolidated in your P&L? What are the target markets that you aim at, probably grabbing some market share? And how is that fitting into your Intermodal network, where we probably should assume quite a good connection and additional points of good flow for you to benefit from? That would be helpful.

Yes. Thank you for the question. Actually, we were signing the agreement in a moment, I think, where 2 weeks ago -- or basically 2 weeks before as well the closing -- pandemic closing in Italy. It was worsening, the situation, in a manner that we would have been physically not be possible to be there. So that was, for many reasons, a very good timing. We had coverage in national and European coverage of more than 30 live TV stations, which gives you a certain idea on the exclusivity of the port itself, the location itself and as well maybe of the European positioning of Trieste. The investment, from our perspective, is strategic expansion to our existing port and intermodal network. The facility itself, that's 28 hectares within the Free Port of Trieste. It's obviously in the northern part of the facility. And it's mainly general cargo transports and logistics services being handled there. The new heart of the terminal will be emerging in the southern part, and the newly developed area will start operations in the first quarter of 2021. So with this, we are expecting the closing by the end of January '21. And the business operations itself will presumably start in Q2 2021. It will be geared, the first start, to handle container and RORO traffic. And the capacity of the terminal overall in total will be approximately 300,000 TEUs, 90,000 RORO units and 700 (sic) [ 700,000 ] tonnes of general cargo. But there is as well an option to significantly expand the terminal capacity through additional adjacent areas. And as you may -- are aware that already today, our Intermodal out of Metrans is catering to Trieste. So this is as well a very good input into our Intermodal network.

Could you elaborate a little bit on what is the potential CapEx requirement that we should factor in for 2021? And on the purchase price, actually, is there some sort of payment linked to any kind of performance potentially? And when actually will be the cash out? Or has it already flown?

Well, no idea.

Well, we are not basically disclosing the details of the contract itself. So you understand, as we are taking a majority stake, probably with -- it now will be effect in January 2021 with private people involved. We are -- have an agreement not to disclose further information.

All right. So we have to wait then for the Q1 report to look at the cash flow statement then, obviously.

Yes.

[Operator Instructions] Next question is from the line of Christian Cohrs from Warburg Research.

Yes. Maybe just coming back on the office side, just for clarification. First of all, have you had some short-term work? And if so, could you maybe quantify the potential relief on the OpEx side? And secondly, there was some press noise here, especially in the northern media that, that is EUR 50 million -- or that actually quantified your efficiency ambition at EUR 50 million for the Burchardkai. Can you confirm that magnitude and also whether it is linked through substantial or through any potential workforce reduction? And then lastly, the press noise just covered the CTB. Do you have also cost savings or efficiency program for the Tollerort terminal prospectively inside?

Okay. Mr. Cohrs, as we already giving you as a feedback last time, we have no short-term people. We have no coverage of short -- it's like, is it right or...

Yes.

Yes, of short labor. And as you can see from our Q3 numbers, we had even more volume and traffic and throughput. So there was no reason for having short-term people involved. And with regards to our terminal layouts or terminals, as Roland has mentioned it before, obviously, we have a clear idea on managing our future in increasing our productivity in all our terminals. We are investing, and therefore, obviously, this is a future program, not a restructuring program, not even a program for substantially surviving, as some other competitors are outlining this. And obviously, it depends very much on the volume that we are growing on -- as well on the demographic, development of our employees, how these numbers turn out in terms of number of employees.

Okay. And the EUR 50 million that had been mentioned, you do not want to comment on that, whether this -- actually, it was mentioned, I think, EUR 50 million by 2025 as annual savings to be achieved. Is it correct or can you confirm it? Or is this just a press rumor?

Mr. Cohrs, we comment on segmental level regarding the data that we release to the market, not on each and every terminal. But once again, more in general, not surprising, we continue to work hard on efficiency targets. As we did in the past, the benchmark with regard to the degree of successful automation in place at CTA and not surprising, if I would try to judge a little bit the cost situation at the German coastline, I take for granted that the cost leadership per unit is at CTA and the technology we use is automation. So -- and as I outlined before, CTB is in transition. And we are aiming at a higher degree of automation, not for technology purposes, for the reason to please our clients, to deliver berth efficiency that is highly appreciated by our clients. And technology will help us to keep costs under control.

I think there's a big difference in the view and the attitude towards management. We are not counting heads, but we are counting the efficiency of our products and processes.

There are no further questions at this time. And I would like to hand back to Angela Titzrath for closing comments. Please go ahead.

Okay. So it helps to unmute if I want to talk to you. Ladies and gentlemen, we find ourselves in a year that can be considered historic. The macroeconomic environment for our business remains highly volatile even beyond pandemic. I can therefore assure you that we will do everything necessary in this current situation to steer HHLA safely through these turbulent waters. Our cause remains clear, and we will continue to be guided by efficiency growth and sustainability. Thank you very much for your interest and your ongoing support for HHLA. And please keep in mind, we are here to support Germany and Europe in all our infrastructure efforts. And please stay healthy. Take care. Goodbye.