Hamburger Hafen und Logistik Aktiengesellschaft (HHFA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for standing by. Welcome to the HHLA's Conference Call on the Full Year Results 2022. All comments will refer to a set of charts available since this morning in the IR section of HHLA's webcast. [Operator Instructions] HHLA is represented today by Angela Titzrath, CEO; and Tanja Dreilich, CFO. And now it's my pleasure, and I would like to turn the conference over to Angela Titzrath, CEO. Please go ahead, ma'am.

Thank you very much. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to our conference call on the financial year 2022. Before we take a deep dive into our financial performance in the past year, I would like to extend a special warm welcome to our new Chief Financial Operator, Tanja Dreilich, who has been with us since the beginning of the year. In the challenging 2022 financial year, HHLA provided its efficiency and resilience. Together with its affiliated companies, HHLA is a major player in the European logistics network. Whether in port of Hamburg, Tallinn, Odessa or Trieste or on the rails in the hinterland, HHLA reliably fulfilled its remit as a service provider to companies and consumers across Germany and Europe. In spite of the challenging conditions, we once again successfully mastered this task. Right at the start of the year, we had to close our terminal in the port of Odessa to seaborne handling due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. However, hinterland transportation remained in place during the year. Our Intermodal companies were able to set up a rail bound land bridge by our internal Intermodal companies to connect Odessa to other European ports. What's more, in the fourth quarter of 2022, we also started some top up loading activities for grain vessels at CTO as well. Even though it was not only the Russian war progression in Ukraine and its consequences that challenged us and burdened our financial performance in 2022, we faced major operational challenges from several external conditions. In particular, the disruptions to the global supply chain caused, among other, things like port closures in Asia and North America and massive shipper delays or disruptions in the European hinterland due to storms on construction sites, kept us busy in 2022. Thanks to the high deployment of personnel and technology as well as the establishment of additional storage areas, we managed to quickly reduce the container backlog. In addition, we had to cope with strong rises in energy prices and inflation as well as the first strike in Hamburg for 42 years. It was also one of our container terminals in Hamburg, which became a particular focus of interest. I'm talking about the Container Terminal Tollerort, which attracted considerable major attention due to Costco's planned minority shareholding. The strategic partnership with Costco elevates the CTT to a preferred for Asia traffic. This is important for us to find volumes from the Far East to the Port of Hamburg. We are still waiting for the approval of this transaction by the Federal Ministry of Economics. As soon as this decision has been made, we swiftly finalized the transaction with Costco in a timely manner. Despite all these challenges given, HHLA was be able to close the 2022 financial year with a positive result. At EUR 201.6 million, the EBIT result of Port Logistics subgroup did not quite match the strong result of the previous year, however, it still exceeded our expectations at the start of the year of between EUR 160 million and EUR 195 million and an expected range that did not account for the consequences of the Russian war progression and global economy. As a result, HHLA finished the third pandemic year in a row with a profit. On that note, let me hand you over to Tanja for more details on our financial performance in 2022.

Thank you, Angela, and good afternoon, everyone, also from me. Let's move directly to the reporting for our container segment. Overall, container throughput at HHLA's terminals decreased by 7.9% to 6.9 million TEU in 2022. Throughput at our terminals in Hamburg fell by 4.1% to 6.1 million TEU and thus helped quite compared to the main competing European North Range port. What does it mean? In Hamburg, throughput fell by our turnoff by 4.1%, then it's significantly lower than in the total Hamburg throughput of minus 5.1% and significantly lower compared to Rotterdam minus 5.5%, Antwerp 5.2%, [indiscernible] port 8.9%. So we really proved our resilience in our performance in '22 at our Hamburg terminal. So -- however, throughput development was generally [ held ] by disruptive supply change, which led to high storage utilization and thus, resisted the handling capacity in our terminals accordingly. So lower cargo volumes from the Far East shipping region, especially China, also had an impact. The acquisition of 2 feeder services in the first quarter of '22 and the increase in cargo attributed to Poland and Scandinavia could not fully offset the decrease in volumes from and to Russia to the -- due to the EU sanctions. That said, the feeder ratio of seaborne handling decreased slightly to 0.6 percentage points, up to 19.8%. Among our international container terminal, Tallinn saw strong volume growth due to increased use of the terminal as an alternative to the Russian port. Our Odessa terminal is still closed on the water side, but remains operational and open for allowed grain exports. However, despite encouraging volume growth, the terminals in Tallinn and Trieste in Italy, only partially could offset the decline in volume at the Odessa terminal. Overall, the international terminals reported a decline in volume 47.1%. Despite significantly lower volume, segment revenue increased slightly by 2.6% year-on-year, up to EUR 864.2 million. The main reason for this was a strong temporary rise in storage fees and the container terminals in Hamburg, Tallinn and Trieste over the years. So OpEx increased as well, not only the revenue side by 3 percentage points compared to the previous year, mainly due to strong rise in the cost of materials as a result of higher electricity consumption and rising fuel costs as well as from additional personnel expenses linked to the very high storage load and the collective rates increase agreed in the third quarter of '22. Expenses associated with services and consulting as well as expenses for external maintenance services also rose. OpEx for the terminal in Trieste also rose significantly due to the comprehensive startup of business for further business operations. However, average revenue per TEU increased and reflected the spike in storage fees. As a result of all these challenging activities, EBIT rose by 1.3% to [ EUR 105.3 million ]. And we see that it is only slightly 0.2% lower than last year EBIT margin at a very good level instead. So let me move on now to the Intermodal segment. Also disruption to the transport chains did not stop the seaport terminals but they also impacted Hinterland Transport. Our Intermodal companies achieved a slight increase in total transport volumes of 0.2% to 1.7 million TEU. Whereas road transport declined significantly by 8.7%. Rail transportation grew moderately by 2.2% year-on-year and also proved resilient. This growth was mainly driven by traffic from the north German seaports, strong solid traffic and the rise in the German-speaking market. By contrast, traffic with the Adriatic seaports remained slightly below the prior year level. With an increase of 14.6% to EUR 595.4 million revenue growth was far stronger than the rise in the transport volumes. This was mainly due to a further increase in the rail share of HHLA's total Intermodal transportation from 81.6 percentage points to 83.2 percentage points as well as the temporary price surges, the charges for rail transport that were implemented to partially offset the sharp rise in energy prices. So as a result, EBIT came in at a level of EUR 95.3 million, thus decreasing by 8.6% compared to the previous year. Earnings were burdened by operational interruptions due to ongoing supply chain disruptions, as mentioned, and the strong rise in energy prices, which could only be passed on to the market after some delays, some savings during the year. As a result, the EBIT margin fell by 4.1 percentage points to 16%. Please bear in mind that the prior year figure was also supported by a higher subsidy for route prices of approximately EUR 11 million granted retroactively in the third quarter of '21. Let's turn briefly to the logistics segment, where we have [ pooled ] the vehicle logistics and consultancy division as well as new business activities. In the reported period, the consolidated companies reported revenues of EUR 77.6 -- EUR 77.6 million and thus exceeded the prior year figure by 8.8%. Consulting activities and vehicle logistics, in particular, contributed to this positive development. However, EBIT fell to EUR 6.9 million negative, in particular to an impairment of a company called Bionic of around EUR 4 million. The company was deconsolidated in the fourth quarter of 2022. At equity earnings, especially, the equity earnings are reported below the EBIT line. They increased to EUR 4.2 million during the '22 financial year despite partially opposing developments in earnings of individual business activities as we have seen in other segments as well. Coming back to the Port Logistics subgroup. As a whole, let's have a closer look at our cash flow development. The cash flow from operating activities decreased by around EUR 34 million to EUR 257.1 million as of 31 December '22. The main reason for this development were lower pension provisions compared to the previous year 2021, higher income tax payments in '22 and a fall in EBIT of around EUR 6.5 million. Investing activities resulted in a net cash outflow of EUR 131.6 million and were thus stayed below the prior year figure. This development was mainly due to higher proceeds from short-term deposits compared to the same period last year. So the change of short-term deposits up to 3 months an increase of those and the decrease of those short-term deposits 4 to 12 months. As a result, the free cash flow came in at a level -- at a solid level of EUR 125.5 million. Cash flow from financing activities totaled EUR 132.1 million. This was EUR 55 million higher than in the prior year due to higher dividend payments and higher settlement obligations paid to noncontrolling interest. Overall, our available liquidity at the end of December '22 remained at a comfortable level of EUR 177.8 million. So the next slide highlights our equity development of the Port Logistics subgroup. Equity increased in '22 quite significantly up to EUR 809 million in '22, mainly as a consequence of rising interest rates, 40% increase -- 40 basis point increase in interest rates that led to actuarial gains and the positive results for the reporting period. Deferred taxes and the distribution of dividends have an opposing effect. So in view of this development, the equity ratio increased to around 32% coming from 22.1% last year with a dynamic gearing ratio of 3.2x net debt versus EBITDA. So despite the challenges we have faced over the past year, we are sticking to our dividend policy. So we have a proposal for the general assembly in June 15. Since the IPO in 2007, HHLA has been committed to its profit-oriented dividend policy, which aims to distribute between 50% and 70% of annual net profit after minority interest. Based on our financial performance in the 2022 financial year, we will propose, together with the Supervisory Board, a dividend of EUR 0.75 per class A share. Subject to the approval of the Annual General Meeting on June 15, 2023, we will distribute a total dividend payout of EUR 54.4 million. This means a payout ratio of 66%. That concludes on my remarks. For a review of our ESG performance, a status update of the strategic step to secure our core business and an outlook for the 2023 financial year, let me hand over to Angela.

Thank you. As you all know, sustainability is an integral part of HHLA's business model. This approach is also reflected in our new reporting structure. We have decided to transfer sustainability reporting into our group management report. For the first time, it includes in depth disclosures on environmental, social and governance aspects. Just how sustainable our business activities already are is underlined by the high degree of alignment with the EU taxonomy, which we are reporting for the first time this year. It exceeds 80% for revenue, capital expenditure and operating expenses. Moreover, I would like to point out another highlight. At CTA, we are continuing to convert the AGV fleet and refueling infrastructure to electric. To date, 85% of the fleet has been electrified with the last vehicle switching over to electric during 2023. The electrification of processes and increased use of renewable energies is a decisive step of our long-term aim, which is to achieve climate neutral production throughout the HHLA Group by 2040. Ladies and gentlemen, on the next slide, I would like to highlight some achievements of our group strategy. To ensure that HHLA remains competitive and efficient in the future, the container segment is working hard on the implementation of our efficiency program for the Hamburg terminals. We continue to invest in the future of the port of Hamburg. As the container terminal [indiscernible], the block storage system was expanded as scheduled and additionally, measures for the automatization of handling operations were implemented. With the recently launched organizational realignment, we are setting the cost for the future and securing employment in the port for the long-term. Internationally, we are investing in strengthening our European network. In 2022, we expanded our network with new rail connections between the Baltic and the Bosporus. In March 2023, our Intermodal company Metrans acquired 51% stake in the Croatian n Adria Rail, which offers rail transport from the Adriatic region to Central and Southeastern Europe, both as a rail operator and as a rail transport company. Adria Rail also owns the inland terminal in Indija, Serbia, near Belgrade. This expands the European Metrans network to a total of 20 terminals at important hubs in Europe. In the port of Muuga, our TK Estonia terminal is now able to handle ships with the volume of 14,000 TEU, thanks to the transfer of 2 container gantry cranes from CTB. Our terminal in the port of Trieste is also becoming increasingly important, linking cargo flows from the Eastern Mediterranean, the Adriatic and Central and Eastern Europe. However, we are not only investing in existing structures, we also see ourselves as facilitators of innovative and sustainable logistics. Established in late 2021, HHLA Next is our very own innovation unit and has already positioned its first products on the market. One of them is heyport, a port called coordination systems. It is already being used to improve communication and coordination of ship calls. In addition, HHLA Next has invested in FERNRIDE and has launched a pilot project for automated driving in Tallinn together with HHLA TK Estonia. Our innovation unit will continue to invest consistently in innovative solutions and make them usable for HHLA. As you see, HHLA is already shaping the logistics of the future by continuing to invest in innovative and sustainable business activities. Ladies and gentlemen, the past year was subject to many uncertainties. As a result, it is currently not possible to issue a reliable forecast. For 2023, we expect the Port Logistics subgroup to show a moderate increase year-on-year in both container throughput and container transport. As revenue and the operating result in the financial year 2022 were positively influenced by the significant rise in income from storage fees, revenue of the Port Logistics subgroup in 2023 is expected to be on par with the previous year. While the Container segment is likely to see a slight year-on-year decline in revenue, a significant increase is assumed for the Intermodal segment. Overall, an EBIT result in the range of EUR 145 million to EUR 175 million is considered possible for the Port Logistics subgroup. Within this range, a strong decline in segment EBIT is expected in the Container segment and a moderate increase in the Intermodal segment. With regard to liquidity, HHLA assumes it will have sufficient funds at all times to meet its payment obligations. In order to further increase efficiency and expand capacity in the Container and Intermodal segments, capital expenditure will Port Logistics subgroup will be in the range of EUR 220 million to EUR 270 million. In the Container segment, investments will focus on the efficient use of existing terminal space in the Port of Hamburg and the expansion of foreign terminals and in the Intermodal segment on the expansion of groups on transferred and handling capacity. Of course, the forecast for capital expenditure is subject to the condition that there are no unexpected delays in addition to assets due to material shortages or long-term disruption to supply chain. It goes without saying that HHLA will continue to consider the scalability of its capital expenditure and adjust it where necessary to future economic development in order to safeguard the financial stability of the group. Ladies and gentlemen, with this outlook, I would like to close my remarks and our financial result 2022. And now we are happy to take your questions.

[Operator Instructions] We have the first question from Nikolas Mauder from Kepler.

I have 3, if I may. The first 1 would be on the excess storage fee normalization during 2023. Can you share your assumptions for the full year, what level are we normalizing to? And will we be fully normalized at the end of 2022 already in the context of your guidance? That's the first one. Secondly, the average sales for the TEU in the Intermodal segment increased again sequentially in the fourth quarter. While I was under the impression that energy prices were falling from summer onwards, can you perhaps explain this counterintuitive movement at least to me? And what is the reasonable normalization assumption here, given that just in your guidance suggests that this average sales per TEU level will stay elevated during 2023? And then finally, on CapEx. It's going to accelerate from 2022 going forward, but less than I originally expected. Is this already a reaction to the adverse earnings development during 2022, and what does this do to the timeline for the efficiency gain of self-help potential that you think you can realize on the back of these investments?

I will start with the Intermodal question. You need to take into consideration that you have 2 aspects that were driving basically the price level. One is the energy consumption costs. And the second one, obviously, we had in 2022, some congestion charges in the ports of Europe, which are reflected in these numbers as well. For 2023, we on average are on this level again as we have different assumptions on the energy cost within Europe as we are not only in Germany, but within Europe, this is actually the price level overall. CapEx, you need please to take into consideration that what is true for the whole industry that as well we are faced on the CapEx side with delivery delays, with supply chain delays, and this is reflected in the numbers overall. Tanja?

Yes. So coming back to the CapEx question. It's a normal procedure within a company that there are always so-called balancing activities also in the CapEx area. So the CapEx balancing that we have actually put into action does not have any negative impact on our efficiency program. So we will have definitely a focused, prioritized rollout of our CapEx activities. And coming back to your first question, Mr. Mauder, concerning the storage fees, I wouldn't -- I would not call it normalization. What we see as a normalized level is basically the level that we always measure to in 2019. And this is an average of a couple of years. So this is our normalized levels. What we have seen in Q2 market development are indeed exceeding levels, especially in '21 and '22. Compared to '22, we see in '23, let's say, a softening development of the '22 levels, but it's still not at a normalized level of 2019. So this is, I think, the best answer we can give, because, for sure, a disclosure of the absolute amount would include competitive relevant information. And you understand that we cannot do this. Thank you.

The next question comes from Marc Zeck from Stifel.

I'm afraid I need to kind of dwell a bit on the questions already asked. I'd like to take them one by one. On the Intermodal revenue, you said basically that energy consumption costs are somewhat related to the higher revenue per container Intermodal. Now cost per container clearly came down in the fourth quarter versus the third quarter. So let's say, EBIT per container in Intermodal was really, really high in the fourth quarter. So it seems like you kind of got higher revenues, as you said, the customers' energy costs are high, but the energy costs kind of -- that you actually had come down. So should we expect this to just to be a temporary effect, and then in 2023 to reverse somewhat? And if so, I kind of struggle a bit to see revenue then up in Intermodal actually. So if you can help me to understand this point a bit better. That would be my first question.

Thank you for the question. Obviously, pricing is fueled by different elements. And in different regions within Europe, you have different approaches in the market with regards to energy costs. We have seen that this approach is not only regional, differential, but as well is right now in discussion from month to month from quarter-to-quarter. We personally believe that the overall average and the assumption that we have envisioned in our planning is reliable, and therefore, we are very confident to match our planification.

Okay. And if I understand that correctly, you're saying that this is not a temporary effect, but...

Well, we have to defend ourselves in the market. So the overall -- if the overall cost is increasing, usually, you try to give it through pricing as well into the market.

Okay. But still like [ 70 ] something for container that you achieved in the fourth quarter on Intermodal, I guess, still wouldn't be fair to annualize that times 4 and then get what you expect in EBIT in the term [indiscernible]. So there will be some movements between costs and revenue here. So that EBIT in the term for container will be somewhat lower than on average than the first quarter.

Well, that's your assumption.

All right. Okay. Then on the dwelling fees. In the Container segment, you said you don't expect them to normalize to 2017, 2019 level any time soon. Could you explain what is the driver behind that? It was my impression that mainly the higher dwelling fees were related to port congestion. It would be interesting to know if there's still port congestion in Hamburg right now. And if not, what is then driving higher dwelling fees here?

Obviously, the dwelling time depends from many different conditions. Port congestion is one. Right now, we have no port congestion here in Hamburg, but port congestion from other ports originally have been one of the sources for a higher dwell time. In addition, you need to count into this calculation as well the punctuality of container delivery from the hinterland. So if you have some stress on the railway side in the hinterland or on the trucking side or congestion of other areas, this obviously is linked as well then to some logistic challenges within the port. I would like to remind all of you that Corona still is not over. We're experiencing in China, in particular, a severe rate of infection right now with some not yet port congestions, but difficulties and challenges, in particular, in the flow of goods to the Chinese ports and from the Chinese port, we still have some port congestions in the American ports, which are tendency not easy to solve. And all of this is still linked with an existing war in the heart of Europe, in the Ukraine with sanctions and with some further complexity linked to other logistic elements linked to the port and to the war itself. So obviously, reliability of services is always as well linked to the planification of conditions. And we are still far away from saying that there is a stable situation. The good news is for you as an investor that we at HHLA, we have shown in the past few years that we are reliable and dealing as well with these challenges -- challenging environment.

Then I would be interested to get more information, let's say, on current trading. And on your guidance that you expect volumes in the port or on the Container segment to be slightly up year-over-year for 2023?

So we didn't get the first one. There was some noise in the line. Could you repeat your first part of your question?

Yes. I would be interested in an update on what's going on with current volumes in the container business. So when we listen to what Maersk, Hapag-Lloyd was saying, then volumes in the first quarter was still not really recovering. Also the Chinese New Year, obviously. So what have you seen in the first quarter in terms of volumes? And given that you guide for an increase, a slight increase in volumes in the Container segment, is it fair to say that you expect quite a significant increase in volumes in the second half of the year? Or would you already expect a certain volumes in the second quarter already?

First of all, obviously you mentioned our customer. Our customers usually do know what the market development are. We can just confirm we had a slow volume start in the first quarter. We're all expecting picking up of volumes, which is not yet predictable when it will start in the second quarter or in the third quarter. But it is not a phenomenon of Germany, not of Hamburg, but it is a phenomenon of the North range here in Europe, which shows you as well that everybody is right now depending on the economic development. And let me outline as well, if we talk about 2022, the port of Rotterdam has a decline on volumes of minus 7%, Hamburg of minus 4%, and HHLA of minus 4%. And sorry, Hamburg of 5% and we as of minus 4%. That means we have outperformed the market last year. And this is as well an assumption looking into 2023, depending on the economic outlook, which right now is difficult to describe when the volumes are picking up.

All right. And I got 1 last question on the midterm on the [ traditional 5 ] ambition, as you call it. I guess, in the most recent presentations, there was that EUR 400 million in EBIT feature for 2025. If I look at current Bloomberg consensus, the numbers for 2025, most analysts expect something in the range of EUR 200 million. So that's quite a large gap. Could you maybe help us to understand how and why you will make that EUR 400 million in EBIT by 2025.

So the last time we published actually our 5-year plan, so our midyear plan was in '21. Since then some parameters changed, right? And what we will do as regular, let's say, process this year, we will, for sure, go into a strategic review and then for sure, also will compute a new midterm plan-based on the latest information. And actually then, Mr. Marc Zeck, we will definitely let you know and inform you about our view on the midterm development of the company.

The next question comes from Christian Cohrs from Warburg Research.

Maybe spontaneously coming back to you and just the midterm targets, you said that you will renew or rework the midterm plan in the course of the year. Can you maybe specify and provide us with an idea of the timeline? And when roughly we should expect you to update this midterm target? Secondly, also coming to your question and actually to your comment that you stated that HHLA outperformed last year, the North range and [indiscernible] to me between the lines if you expect something similar for this year. So does this mean that you expect that there will be new services and new port calls. And maybe can you quantify that? Have you been successful in attracting new customers or additional services and it is related to your partnership with Costco? So any more color on that would be helpful. And then a question on your logistics business, actually, it is -- yes, it is more or less continuously loss-making. Don't you think that it is time to dive deeper into it? And I mean it's -- long-term, it's about value creation. And honestly, I follow HHLA for a decade by now, and I haven't seen any value creation by this particular segment. And don't you think at this time to restructure and realign that division. And lastly, 2 questions of understanding. First of all, your feeder ratio was flat in [ 9M ] then it dropped to 19.8% by year-end. So this implies that feeder volumes must have fallen down the cliff in Q4, while O&D volumes in Hamburg must have been stable. It is a fair assumption? And can you maybe provide us an explanation why feed out was so weak in Q4? And lastly, also a question of understanding your settlement obligation related to the noncontrolling interest, the [indiscernible]. It's now by 0. Is this due to any -- is this just a coincidence? Or is there any contractual change, any accounting change, we must be aware of?

Thank you, Mr. Cohrs. With regards to our outlook, 2025, again, as [ Ms. Dreilich ] already stated, this outlook was done before some major conditions were changing. We didn't plan with the corona pandemic impact nor with war impact. We are going to visit it on an annual basis, usually to the year-end, those figures, and then we will decide whether we are disclosing and how. And obviously, you will be as well informed. With regards to your outperformance that was with regards to 2022. And we are looking in 2023, obviously, with growing with our customers that we have already in Hamburg. With regards to logistics, as you are such a long visitor of these calls, you have recognized that logistics has changed significantly from the content. We have companies like Hamburg Port Consulting, which outperformed -- is outperforming. We have companies in the new ones like the iSAM Group, which we have acquired and others. So we are already restructuring this company and this segment and the newly builded company, HHLA Next is just celebrating its first year of existence. So we are well already undergoing here new development and significantly and positively one. With regards to the feeder volume, December 2022 overall was in Rotterdam, in Antwerp, in Hamburg as well as in Bremen [indiscernible], the same development. It was significantly dropping down, and there was as well some impact on some protests that were at the different harbors. And we don't have a special explanation with regard to feeder volumes. And Ms. Dreilich will answer your question with regard to the CTA.

Yes, basically, you were asking, is there a contractual change with regard to the noncontrolling interest and the simple answer is yes.

Okay. Maybe just as a follow-up, logistics. So if I understood you correctly, then the overall, I know that in your portfolio are some quite strong activities. But in the past, lease heavy underperformance overall divisional performance what has been different. But if I understood you correctly, then you expect that going forward, the earnings contribution of the entire division will be more favorable than it was in the past, and it will become a meaningful contributor.

Yes.

The next question comes from Jean Marc Miller from JMS.

Yes. And I have to come back to the minorities. I mean, first of all, I noticed that the minorities were actually quite high in Q4 and higher than in Q1, Q2, Q3. I mean, obviously, driven by a somewhat higher result in Q4 as well, but that probably does not explain why minorities has been so high. And if this is mainly the 25% stake of Hapag-Lloyd in CTA, if I basically do the math and I say, okay, what is CTA actually producing in net profit, it's around EUR 160 million. You as a group produce EUR 120 million of net profit before minorities, which means the rest must be deeply loss-making. If you could comment on that as well. And going forward in '23, I mean, how do you see capacity utilization for the different terminals. I mean should we expect minorities to be at a similar level. So basically, everything which is not CTA is actually going worse, even more than in 2022? Or will that be kind of evenly split between the different terminals?

Thank you for your question. It shows me that there is some misunderstanding. Ms. Dreilich will clarify this piece.

Yes, basically, we have only one major noncontrolling interest stake overall within HHLA. And this is, as you said, related to Hapag-Lloyd, and it's only related to 1 terminal. And what you are describing is, for sure, a different phasing over the year. So what we explained in all of our publications is that there is some seasonality in revenues and as such as well in the EBIT development. And so basically, there is just a non-controlling interest this year, which is high in '22, that is higher than in '21 reflecting also, for sure, the volume developments of the different geographical areas. And please remember there is a war still ongoing. So for instance, the American or the activities towards the U.S. are not that, let's say, burdened as other activities. And this is also for sure then reflected in the channel and the activities there.

Okay. But going forward, I mean, would you expect minorities to be, I mean, in '23 to be at the similar level as they were in '22?

No.

There are no further questions at this time, and I hand back to Angela Titzrath for closing comments.

Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, although we continue to face challenges in 2023, working in logistics means being able to deal with volatility. In recent years, we laid the foundations that allow us to approach this year with confidence and courage. HHLA is already shaping the logistics of the future and our investments in sustainable innovative business activities are an essential part of this. We will continue to pursue this course and do all we can to enhance the intrinsic value of HHLA. Thank very much for your interest and your ongoing support for HHLA. Please stay healthy and take care. Goodbye.

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes the conference call on the full year results 2022. Thank you very much for joining, and have a pleasant day. Goodbye.