Harmony Gold Mining Company Limited (HAR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Shannon De Ryhove from Creamer Media Contract Publishing. Welcome to today's webinar on deepening commitment to ESG in South Africa's mining sector, hosted in partnership with Harmony Gold Mining Company, our strategic partner for this webinar. Thank you also to our sponsors, Ukwazi Mining Solutions, Digby Wells Environmental Consultants, Implats, Sibanye Stillwater and Envision Advisory Services. Their support has made this webinar possible. Today's webinar brings together thought leaders in the area of environmental, social and governance, or ESG, in order to deepen discussions, insights and best practice with regard to this vital issue for the South African mining sector. Today's webinar will be facilitated by Lael Bethlehem, Chief ESG Officer at Sedibelo Resources, a mining company with PGM assets in the Northwest and Limpopo provinces. Lael has worked in various sectors of the economy, including forestry, renewable energy, affordable housing and development finance. She started her career as a researcher in the trade union movement and later served as a senior public servant in local and national government before moving to the private sector. Lael will facilitate the discussion with our panel, which consists of Melanie Naidoo-Vermaak, Group Executive for Sustainable Development at Harmony Gold Mining Company; Dr. Tsakani Mthombeni, Executive of Sustainable Development at Implats; Sarah Cooper, ESG division leader at Digby Wells; and Kurt Roelandt, Director at Envision Advisory Services. Before we begin, please be aware that we have enabled the Q&A function, so please post any questions into the Q&A box. You'll find this on the panel at the bottom of your screen. The panelist will answer as many of your questions as possible at the end of the discussion. To encourage interaction, we've also enabled the chat function, so you can network with the panelists and other attendees via the chat box. You'll also find this at the bottom of your screen. Please do not, however, post questions in the chat box as we may miss them. You can post those into the Q&A instead. Please be aware that we are recording this webinar, and we'll be sending the recording to you when it's available. So now I'll hand over to our facilitator, Lael Bethlehem, to take the proceedings forward. Over to you, Lael.

Thank you very much, and good afternoon, everybody. I must say fabulous to be on this webinar. I see there are 130 participants and climbing every count of minutes and really great that there's so much interest in this topic. So if you I guess, in a sense, there was no such thing, except that [Technical Difficulty] there was, because there was sustainability and there were other concepts that not only mining companies were using but other concepts that were being used out there in the economy. But I do think that the focus on ESG and the fact that we now have this term ESG, which encompasses so much of what we need to achieve within our economy and not only the financial bottom line. The fact that this has come to the fore as it has in so many companies is really very helpful. And this is not only a local trend in South Africa, but very, very much an international trend. So really great that we are all focused on ESG, and I do see this as a real progress that has been made in integrating environmental and social concerns, governance [Technical Difficulty] concerns into the work of -- maybe though that we don't all agree on what ESG means. Is ESG an [ extender ], is ESG a description, what does it mean to achieve ESG goals? And most importantly, how do we avoid ESG becoming a tick-box exercise where we simply say, well, we report in terms of this standard and that standard, and therefore, our work is done. In other words, can we make ESG a real driving force that helps to shape the work of our companies, that helps to shape the consciousness of our leadership and that helps to drive the work of every single employee in our businesses.

So let's start off by asking our participants how they see ESG in their environments. These are not always easy environments to manage. And here is another whole layer of requirements. Let's start with you, Melanie. So tell us from your position at Harmony. First, if you could share with us what your position is because different companies have a different way of organizing ESG. So tell us what your position is at Harmony, what your work entails and how ESG works in Harmony? Over to you, Melanie.

Thank you. Good afternoon, Lael. Yes. I'm the Group Executive for Sustainability and Effectively ESG, so it's about ensuring that we bring the different elements of environmental, social and governance issues together under a single umbrella and have it embedded within the organization, really building a robust organization. I think that is the focus of my job and a very exciting one I'd say.

And Melanie did you find in your work that you're able to create a balance between the environmental and social side? Do you see these things as complementary? Or have they just been banded together in one box when, in fact, they don't have much to do with each other? How do you see the environmental and the social working together or not?

Look, I'm very careful to ensure that we don't separate and segregate issues. There's such a high degree of overlap and integration that it has to be seen as a holistic one. ESG by and large is about informing investment strategy, and we've been seeing really people put their money and consequently it affects business strategy. So at Harmony, the ESG conversation is very alive and it's very integrated and it's very whole. It's about understanding and balancing the different aspects and elements of E, S &G managing the risks, managing and optimizing opportunities, trying to create value for your organization. And very often, there's a high degree of integration and less of a trade-off between E, S and G aspects. Yes, so at Harmony, it's very much integrated kind of view towards managing ESG within the business.

And Melanie, can you just tell us, just give a bit of flavor and color to your comments. Can you tell us perhaps about one or two of your ESG projects that you've been involved with? And how these might illustrate the approach that Harmony has taken?

Yes, so there's been a number of projects that we've actually been involved with, which has a very sound and solid ESG background to it. We were involved in [Technical Difficulty] that take care of water recycling so that we may reduce our dependency on portable supplies for societal needs. We've been working on strengthening tranche of economies, for example, and women becoming economically active, something very close to my heart, one of the initiatives I pioneer personally. And we're looking to support alternative economies; economies that can survive post mining. But I think one of the more significant, most prominent and most recent initiative that we've been involved in is our decarbonization program. Harmony has been working these last few years, I'm trying to understand and internalize both the physical and transitional risks to our business as a result of climate change. In the South African context, I mean that's been further amplified by our supply constraints. So we were very proud this year when we were able to commit to our net zero targets, to be able to reach net zero by 2045. To further commit to short-term science-based targets to support us to get to their [Technical Difficulty] And I think underpinning all of this was a very aggressive plan to support the strategy and the target, and we're already making good traction from an energy efficiency perspective with us already having saved a decent ZAR 1 billion over the last few years, reducing our carbon footprint by an additional 1.2 million tonnes. But Harmony is not going to stop there. I think we have been very articulate that we want to go out and marry the efficiency program with a very aggressive energy mix program, which we broke up into three phases. We're in the construction of the first 30 megawatts already. So there is a strategy in action now. We're concluding feasibility [Technical Difficulty] on the next 137 megawatts facility which is [Technical Difficulty] feasibility, which should bring [Technical Difficulty] megawatts of wind. So all in all, very exciting time for decarbonization in Harmony. I think today is specifically special to us, we're commissioning one of our solar plants at[indiscernible] as we speak. So really exciting times as it relates to decarbonization. I think the other thing Harmony has done as well is we've put in place a talk [Technical Difficulty] -- we put in place a strategy and plan, but we wanted to make sure that it's creatable and it's doable and secured a 1.6 million green fund -- green loan to fund our Phase II. It clearly was the first for Harmony, a green fund, and I understand the first for South Africa as well. I think it just reinforces that having a good ESG proposition enables access to finance and enables us to be able to do the right things for the business.

Fantastic, Melanie, I think that last point that you've made is one of the key points about ESG is that it can no longer be [Technical Difficulty] and it has to be integral to the business. It is about the way that we do our business. Thank you so much for sharing those experiences. I think we'll come back to the decarbonization program a little bit later. And I'd love to also push you a bit more about some of the social aspects that you mentioned, in particular, building resilient communities who can survive post mining because that's such an important part of the ESG agenda, I think, in mining in South Africa. We only need to think of [indiscernible] Not only from an environmental perspective and from the [ first off the deck ] but also about the people that are left behind once a mine closes. Thank you very much to Melanie Naidoo-Vermaak from Harmony, we'll be coming back to you, Melanie. I'm going to move on now to Tsakani Mthombeni from Implats. Tsakani, if you could take us through how your job works, Implats is a really large organization. You have many mining sites. You've got some very old mines. You've got some newer properties. Do you get involved both on the environmental side, the social side? And how does Implats view ESG as part of its business proposition? Over to you, Tsakani.

Well, thanks for inviting us to share our experience and aspirations [indiscernible] and follow more with it. So our approach to sustainability isn't necessarily driven by ESG demand led by the core desire to lead our people, which is to create a better future through which we are committed to responsible stewardship for long-term value creation. And I will later on share with you a few examples on how we have gone about doing that and how much money we have put in and how we are impacting lives in that regard. For us responsible stewardship is one of our key strategic pillars in the business. And we have found that with that [indiscernible] In mind, we are able to focus on materialities, issues that are material to our business, and that guides us in selecting and sequencing our priorities for what we focus on. I think ESG as an acronym has obviously stimulated a lot of discussions, much of which we needed to have as an industry. However, we must not lose sight that these are -- I say to colleagues at work, these are three windows that investors are able to look through our business to see how well we are driving a business sustainability, in of itself is not the end. And I think Melanie said it very well, there are no discontinuities. The challenge is continuum. I mean a clear example is COVID what we've recently gone through. It is no point to put sanitizers and vaccinate employees if the problem does not extend into communities, we are not winning. And so ESG in itself must not lead us to focus on a tick-box exercise where we please people through environmental, social and governance [ glasses ]. And I must say interactions that we've had with investors demonstrate clearly that even in the fund manager space, there is still not agreement on what ESG is, how do you manage performance. I mean, more than 2,000, some venture to say, 3,000 ESG indicators that people use, depending on who you talk to. I think the biggest issue here is that even fund managers are not in agreement, are they measuring an improved process or impact. So what we -- the view we have taken is we are adding value to the enterprise for the long term. The challenge with forecasting only to investor message is you have investors that come in for 6 months, 9 months and they are out. And so if you go with that, you are potentially going to ruin value, enterprise value. So our focus is really embedded and driven by our people and making sure that we deliver that value for the long term.

Well, I just wanted to say you said some really fascinating things there. And I think in a way, your answer also demonstrates the tension that can arise because you've spoken about ESG being about creating a better future. In other words, it is similar to the old notion of sustainability because the old notion of sustainability was not only about environmental sustainability but the management of natural resources, our impact on natural resources, but also our sustainability in relation to the people around us, as well as the people who work for us. So that's also, I guess, a health and safety agenda. But how -- and I think that, that kind of purpose-driven set of ideas in ESG and I urge somebody on the chat calling themselves an ESG enthusiast. In other words, if somebody -- it suggests a kind of a purpose-driven concept of ESG. And what's also happening, as you've mentioned, Tsakani, is that we're getting all of these indicators and all of these indices. I mean, some of us are reporting in terms of 9 or 10 different indices. And it can, I suppose, just become a tick-box exercise. So how do you -- in an organization as big as Implats, how do you get people to really live these ideas rather than this just being another report?

What we thought to do was to try and make this sustainability/ESG conversation simpler, more visible to people at the floor level. So we have broken it down into specific material topics such as water management. And in there, we have ambition for the direction we want to go by 2030, we should be recycling close to 70% of the water that comes through our [indiscernible]. When it comes to decarbonization, we have a long-term ambition of carbon neutrality by 2050 with a short-term goal of the 2030, which is to reduce our footprint by 30%. And so we have a number of other related goals around biodiversity waste mineral -- both mineral and non-mineral as well as air pollution in mine closure and concurrent rehabilitation. And when you come to social, we've had to scale back and talk to business about, there isn't necessarily anything new here, but let's take it our narrative for what we're doing and the impact a little bit better. We've been driving health and safety and well-being topics, I think probably the most -- much worth in the conversation, and I'll probably give you details later of our housing scheme, that is, we believe is one of the industry-leading schemes, housing schemes in South Africa. It's become incredibly important that you don't have stakeholder management but you have stakeholder engagement. So that changes the tone as far as when you engage with stakeholders, you're not managing them, you are engaging, so you can create a progressively something forward. We have a huge program around mine community social performance. So how exactly do we create life during and beyond our operations. So we're focusing specifically on health and well-being program for our communities. We're looking at enterprise development. We're looking at skills and education programs. We're looking at the infrastructure. So when we have to build a bridge, when we have to build a school, we take high-grade specification and don't take a typical CSR approach that would have been a couple of years ago. So now we are having to take that and look at impact going forward and make sure we don't [ saddle ] our communities with very extensive, very complicated technology, heavy and difficult to operate equipment should the mine close. So we are having to have to think carefully around how we deliver, what we believe, what happens beyond delivery of this program. Governance is a foundation, right? So there's no trophy for maintaining a governance foundation. That's what it is, we are a listed entity, we are fortunate enough to lend and have to manage around kind of the expectations as a whole country around Zimbabwe expectations as a whole country for us as well as South Africa. And so that brings in itself a myriad of disclosure platforms that we have to manage. At the same time, we're constantly looking at the topic of human rights, it's become very strong, especially through the supply chain as well. And so in our case, we have customers who also have customers. So we supply PGMs through companies that fabricate and ultimately, you end up with a consumer who is a customer of our customers' value chain. And so all those expectations from their customer side, we're constantly listening and we're constantly seeing, how do we communicate better? And what is the message that's coming from the market? That's how we've gone about it, Lael.

Thank you, Tsakani. You've raised a number of really interesting points there. I'd like to come back to a number of them that you raised, particularly with you being such a big employer in our industry. I think that comes with enormous responsibilities and challenges. You've also mentioned the governance agenda. To me, governance is about accountability. Resources are put in our hands as companies, resources of money, resources of people, resources of natural resources. And the question is, can we account for the way in which we use those resources and the impact that we have. So looking forward to discussing that. But before we do that, let's turn now to Sarah. Sarah Cooper, Digby Wells, how have you seen all of this change? You're in the advisory services side, so people turn to you for your expertise. How have you seen the ESG agenda change in the work that you do?

Sure. Thanks. Yes, like we've seen across the globe, I think over the last decade or probably more specifically the last 5 years, ESG has really gone from the margins to the mainstream. For my team, within Digby Wells, we've gone from being just a one-man band on ESG advisory to a team of 7 consultants over the last 2 years. We're seeing a lot of significant growth in a quest for help on all aspects, particularly in Southern Africa, including in the [indiscernible]. They're looking at the position and communicate their approach better, tell investors what the transition plans are. Some of the big drivers are obviously increased legislation and disclosure pressures, pressures from the investors, also increased expectations. If you want to export your product, your buyers are asking questions and expecting answers. And then what I'd say is while there's been some pushback starting to come on ESG, and we need to be careful about seeing it as a magic bullet, the trend is a desire for better disclosure of performance. I see that continuing. The next generation of shareholders, of employees and customers ask questions about ESG but they don't want to buy from, work for, or invest in companies that negatively impact society on the environment, that they want to be associated with those positive changes. And we've got one of the biggest transfers of capital occurring at the moment. So that's only going to amplify. Someone also mentioned that ESG isn't just a tick box of disclosures, and that's changing as well. A lot of those disclosures require actual action, and there's greater requirements to show what is happening and for the information that is being disclosed at how to be assured. Beyond that, we're also helping suppliers such as drilling and mining contract companies to understand what they need to do and to help them improve. That makes them a better partner of choice for the mining companies, and that's cascading all the way down the supply chain as well.

And Sarah, can you tell us in the way that people turn to you for ESG advice, are you finding more emphasis on the environmental factors, more emphasis on the social? Which are the more difficult ones to solve, or are these factors being seen as part of an integrated whole?

It's a bit of both. We get sort of within the ESG team, we get a lot of climate work and a lot of work around biodiversity. But that social stuff there as well across the whole company, social was one of our big drivers. So -- and they all marry together at the end of the day, ultimately, as well.

Fantastic. Thank you, Sarah. So I'm going to be coming back to you in just a minute or two because I want to follow up some of the specifics there. But first, I want to turn to Kurt Roelandt of Envision Advisory Services. So you also Kurt are involved on the advisory side. Tell us what are companies reaching out to you for? What are the problems that they get trying to help get your help to solve? And how do you see the development of ESG both over the past few years, but also how do you see it developing in time to come?

Okay. Thank you very much, Lael. We see different type of clients according to their maturity. So we still have a number of clients that we had discussions on that are, in fact, waking up on ESG. The CEO has nominated one or two people in its organization to deal with ESG, and these people are looking for support guidance around the standards, the principles. I mean Tsakani said there are 3,000 different metrics that you can choose from. So it's a big audacious issue to deal with it if you start with ESG. So that's the one type of clients. Then we have also clients that are already more evolved along the maturity curve. And one of the base questions that we get is how to establish a baseline. So it's very much linked to the environmental side. It's to understand the Scope 1 and Scope 2. And some clients are trying to also measure the Scope 3, which is a bit more challenging. What we also see is a number of questions regarding carbon offsets, and how does it work. We have, for instance, had a number of discussions with potential suppliers of carbon offsets that had a number of ideas to generate the carbon offsets. And there we see that there is certainly a lack of seed capital [ this or there ], but to get these projects over the line, it requires, first of all, a bit of technical competency, but also financial competency regarding the cost involved of these different standards that you need to deal to create a carbon offset. And we also see bigger companies that have, for instance, different projects like energy efficiency projects or changing of their energy input streams, asking if that applies for the carbon offsets and carbon tax offsets in South Africa. So that are two elements. And then we see also people that try to embark on their ESG strategy, but also want to align their ESG strategy with the full strategy. And I think Melanie, Tsakani and Sarah already mentioned to it, it's not a tick box exercise. It needs to be a very integrated approach, and you have these three pillars E, S and G, and sometimes you have competing forces in between. They are sitting sometimes in different areas of the company. So it's to bring them all together and then to create a certain competitive differentiator because I think sometimes companies still see ESG as something they have to do. But I think if you take a different view and you try to achieve like some of the panelist here with Harmony and Implats mentioned, try to change the mindset and try to create a differentiating from a customer perspective or from an innovation perspective, or from a financing perspective, it can really bring a lot of value to the company.

So Kurt, do you see a danger that this just could become a kind of a compliance matter rather than a new driving force? And how do you help your clients to avoid that risk?

Look, it all depends on the maturity of the entity. As I said earlier, we have certain clients that are still starting at the beginning of their journey. And sometimes you feel they have to do it because someone in the Expo suite, the CEO or Board member has given that assignment and they think maybe we will scratch the surface and we will be fine of it. Other companies that I've seen, that we have been working for, certainly in the mining sector, they want to be a leader. They want to use ESG as a differentiator. And that's a total different mindset in this type of companies when you talk to the different levels of people in the company, they're all aware of their ESG targets, what they need to achieve. And whatever decision they take needs to be aligned with their overall ESG target that are set in 2025, 2030. So there are different type of companies with different type of maturities. And I think it also matters if you're listed or not listed. Some of the nonlisted companies are a bit shielded for now. And certainly, if they don't really need a lot of financing from fund managers or from external investors, they still have a bit of a free rein to go. But I think over time, it will all come together and ESG will become a mainstay.

And I guess one of the differences between the tick box exercise and a real purpose-driven organization has to do with leadership, has to do with whether or not the leadership of the organization feel some personal commitment to running the company in this particular way, rather than those who are just seeing this as something well, it's another thing that we have to comply with. So thank you very much, Kurt. So thanks very much to all the speakers for getting us and over you so far. What I'd like to do now is focus in on the E, on the S and on the G and ask everybody to share some more specifics with us. And in doing so, let me just share a thought with you about the way in which the health and safety agenda has changed in South Africa in mining. If you think about it, if you go back to the 1980s, the number of fatalities in the industry was often more than 600 people a year. And if you go back further than that, the numbers were even more terrific. People who died at work as a result of coming to work and doing their job. And over a period of time, there has been a real shift in that for which we are really grateful. And now the number of people or number of fatalities that we get in the industry has dropped very, very significantly. So if I think about what's happened over time, and I'm sure many of you on this whether have experienced it yourselves. There has been a kind of a mix of a strong compliance drive from government, saying it is just not acceptable. A strong drive from trade unions to say we're talking about people's lives here. No one should die at work. But also, I think a real shift in consciousness that has taken place within the industry and within its leadership and within people working in the industry. In other words, the health and safety improvements that we've seen haven't happened by mistake. They've been a very conscious change. And like everything, these two things require money. So one of the reasons that fatalities have dropped is because we have invested more heavily in health and safety. So I guess that's a really nice template to use in other aspects of ESG because I deduce the health and safety as an aspect of the S in ESG. So this is partly also about companies being willing to put resources into all of these priorities. So I want to now -- I will come back to each one of our speakers. And let's start with the E. Melanie Naidoo-Vermaak has already given us a very nice example of the renewable energy and decarbonization journey that Harmony has embarked upon. I see that on the question -- on the Q&A, there are a couple of people asking questions of greater clarity from you, Melanie. So what I'd like to do is I'd like to go to each speaker and say, on the E, on E of the ESG, could you just share with us quite briefly one project or one approach in your company and the lessons that you are learning from that. Melanie, since you've already mentioned decarbonization, please feel free either to give us a bit more detail since people are interested or you could perhaps choose another project. But can we come to you and say, inspire us Melanie with an example of what Harmony is doing in the E space of ESG. And I'm going to ask each person to do the same.

Yes, happy to. Look, I think we've spoken about decarbonization [Technical Difficulty] I'm just going to pause there for now. But perhaps linked to decarbonization is the whole water vulnerability issue. We're working in a water scarce environment, very often discontinuity in frequent availability for host communities, for local communities for consumptive purposes. So what is a very key asset for us to manage and manage responsibly, not just now, but for the future, if you think about climate and climate change scenarios. So at Harmony, we're working very hard to manage that scarce resource. We're working very hard to implement technology and interventions that look to protecting and conserving that resource so that we, in part, liberate the portable supplies that it can be used for alternate uses and particularly for community needs. But we're also trying as far as possible to recycle, to reuse as much as we can within our circuit from our circuits, from what we generate. And there's been quite a bit of innovation in that area. Harmony has established a host of plants and are continuing to develop these plants where we try to get ourselves independent of external sources and independent of having to discharge. So really using water within circuit, being very responsible around that. And I think the next step for us is to see how we can actually take that from an E to an S perspective and start empowering our communities with what we've gone at and what we've learned through the lessons that we've had and in utilizing some of our own infrastructure and facilities to be able to supply to external needs for now and future use. So I think those are some of the key aspects that we're driving within our business. And like I said, we try not to distinguish too much between the E and S because they overlap. If we can deliver an operational and a business benefit, can we take it a bit further and deliver the social agenda as well. And I think that really talks to how many surface, which is about shared value, it's about using our economic activity to benefit beyond just our gates through ESG, through our business through our value proposition.

Thank you so much, Melanie. And I think your water example is a really great example of how we can really use the same infrastructure, the same initiative, the same expertise to serve the needs of the company while serving the needs of the community and taking the limited natural resources into account. I'm going to come back to you just now for an example of some of the social projects, the SRP projects, perhaps some of the things you mentioned about post mining. So we'll be coming back to you Melanie in a moment. So Tsakani, tell us on the E side. How far is the big organization Implats approaching some of your key challenges, perhaps share with us a little bit on the decarbonization side, if you will?

Sure. I'll give you a little bit because you asked for it, but I really wanted to talk about one very special one. So on our decarbonization pathway, as I mentioned earlier, we have a long-term 2050, short-term 2030 ambition. And at the back of that is a huge road map of initiatives that we have identified close to or just over 500 megawatts of renewables that we will be adding in our business. As we speak now, we are actually busy executing our first phase of that in Zimbabwe, It's 35 megawatts at USD 37 million. That's the plant and all the connectivity into the grid. So that gives us the first step into the decarbonization journey. Obviously, for South Africa, we have to deal with what is called Scope 2 emissions; emissions that come as a result of us using electricity from the grid, that's the majority of our emissions here, in fact, 80% at group level. And so a big focus at shifting in electricity supply shift that is Horizon 1 of our decarbonization journey where we're switching to renewables, and [ evaluating with other ] Horizon 2 is what we call fuel switch. So we'll already be looking at zero carbon fuel to displace where we still have diesel, where we still have coal in our processes. And in the long term, back to Kurt's point, offset becomes very important. Based on understanding of our business right now, it will come a point when we will need to acquire offset to make sure that we get through to neutrality. So in the last -- as you know, when we did the results, we've made a significant capital allocation at the back of that, and that talk to leadership that Lael and you were referring to earlier. But I think -- there's a lot, I could also share onwards, but let me just pick one that's probably unique in the conversation because their renewables tend to have an IRR, they tend to have an NPV, you can justify that with their numbers. So here's a situation where our leadership demonstrating commitment, they said this went to us expanding our operations in Zimbabwe or with a ZAR 4 billion at smelter project, they said we will have a sulfur abatement plant to reuse our sulfur emissions at that operation. It didn't have to be, you could probably have gone and done some solution to still sail below but Board was very insisting and they demonstrated that leadership you were talking to back to the people. And we said we are going to put -- it runs into hundreds of millions of rands for us to put a sulfur abatement plan. It will help us to make sure that our Implats expansion with the smelter, the emissions are at levels that we are experiencing in South Africa. And here in South Africa, we have been investing in the past, again, hundreds of millions of rands to make sure that they will reduce our sulfur emission. And I think, Lael, these are numbers, this is a project, but what I really wanted to use this particular one for what for leadership because there is no necessarily an IRR tied to that investment. This is where it's not about environmental. It really comes down to what the leadership is driven by -- we are driven by the people to create a better future. And therefore, when you have to make a decision, you come back to that and you say, our people is the root of us to act in this manner. And so that's how we constantly use that [ paper ] statement that will take time to craft and consider carefully to make sure that we can use that to guide our decisions going forward.

Amazing. Thank you for those wonderful examples, Tsakani. I think sulfur is one of the things we don't really talk about enough. And we also perhaps also need to have a conversation in our industry about smelting because smelting is a really massive source of carbon emissions as well as sulfur emissions. So really great to hear that Implats has taken that decision. It also perhaps points to the different regulatory requirements in different countries. And increasingly, whether a jurisdiction requires a particular level of compliance with something like sulfur may not be the driving force for the decision once we are indeed purpose driven as you have put it. So I'm going to come now to Sarah and to Kurt and to Tsakani again, I want to come back to you on the social side in a moment. But first, I want to ask, Sarah, can you give us an example Sarah of an exciting, inspiring, interesting project on the environmental side that you are seeing? And I'm going to ask the same, Kurt.

Sure. I'm not going to be too project specific. But as I alluded to earlier, we've had a real rush on the climate work, everything from carbon footprint, doing risk assessment, target setting pathways in alignment with TCFD including some of the scenario analysis work, and that's what I really get excited about because you sort of look at that and then share those results through Board education and management education and sort of explaining how climate could hit the business, what can be done to derisk and future proof. Melanie mentioned water work. Again, some of the work we do around water accounting that's helping clients align to best practice, but it's not just a win for good disclosure. It's helping drive value on the ground since they've got a bit of view of where the water is being used, where the efficiencies might be rolled and helping to improve those reuse, recycling rates and ultimately reduce withdrawals. And then the other one that's pretty close to me is biodiversity, sort of mixed or bigger wave coming through. We've got a number of clients saying that they're getting a lot more questions around biodiversity management. So we're doing a lot of really exciting biodiversity work, strategies, projects, which connect site and management. And then what we're doing is looking to see how we can join up and evolve the thinking in these sort of nature-based solutions, connecting carbon and biodiversity offsets and then start integrating in the social as well with that.

It's a tall order, isn't it Sarah? And then just as you were speaking, I was thinking about how the skills you must have in your company must be quite wide because ESG has actually got a lot of technical skills behind it and technical skills in different disciplines. You need people who -- biodiversity is very different from decarbonization, and that's just the E. So you must have a pretty wide range of skills in your organization to be able to [Technical Difficulty] us.

Yes, definitely. I mean like I said, the team on the ESG side is there's seven of us, but we're supported by sort of a technical group where we've got specialisms, cross water, biodiversity, social stakeholder management, cultural heritage. It's really great because I sometimes say we have knowledge that's 6 miles wide and 3 feet deep, then have that backup of the guys who go 6 miles deep as well.

Right. That's a great way of putting it. Kurt, do you have similar challenges in terms of the multidisciplinary nature of ESG? And share with us, if you will, an example or some insights that you have on the E side?

Okay. Let me start with the E side itself. I mean, recently, we did a project for one of our clients that wanted to venture into a new business, [ an adjacent ] business in the mining sector, which require a lot of yellow plant. So it's very typical for most of the money houses here even. And one of the elements there was how does that new business with all that yellow plant fit in within our ESG strategy overall. So we had a number of discussions with all the different OEMs. And the lessons learned there was that while there are a lot of initiatives happening to decarbonize the yellow plant by [indiscernible] by EG engines, hydrogen, by adding more fuel-efficient engines and so on and in some. That one of the elements is that to get to a net zero production, it will still take a long time because the first commercial -- real commercial initiatives are only coming into them in 2025 and that are only for selected pilots. So it will still take until 2030 and probably until 2035, until you can talk about the full net zero production system, despite all the efforts. And I think that's also a lesson. We can all set ourselves incredible stretch targets, and we need to do that. But I think it's a long journey. It's a marathon. And it's absolutely not a sprint to achieve all these lofty goals. So that's one element. The second element -- part of your question is around the complexity of E, S and G, it's indeed true. I mean there are multiple topics going -- I mean the people already mentioned biodiversity, water resource management and to carbon offsets. Every topic on its own requires a lot of deep knowledge and lot of deep expertise. So our team currently is 4 to 5 people strong. I mean starting from 1 or 2 people 2 years ago. So we also have grown quite significantly. But we also have to or require expert expertise for specific knowledge because you can't contain all the knowledge within one company. It's impossible. It's too diverse.

Absolutely. Thank you, Kurt. And I think that your last comment is really important. I mean, just as companies struggle not to create silos, within the organization. So advisory companies have to have not only a range of skills, but also people who can work across different disciplines because ultimately, these things really all are interconnected. I'm seeing some fabulous questions on the Q&A. There's a very, very interesting question about corruption. There's also some interesting questions about decision making in companies. And I'm itching to get to the questions themselves. But before I do that, I just want to ask Melanie and Tsakani in particular because they are working in mining companies as such. So just share with us a little bit on the S side. Perhaps you can give us an example of a project or an approach either to end of life of mine type problems, resilient communities or perhaps to the ways in which social and labor plans can be used more effectively? And are we using our social and labor plan effectively? Are they having an impact? Or is it just often a set of, again, tick-box exercises? Melanie, give us some insights on the social side.

Thank you, Lael. So that is quite a packed question and comment, I must say. And we've been deliberating a lot about it internally. I think that things are revolutionizing a little on the SLP side, on the social and labor plan. I think there's a sharp realization that your mine life is very finite and that you need to use your presence as a catalyst for something bigger and better and beyond mining. I think that this is resonating not just with regulatory environments, but also with industry. And I think we're seeing more and more coming through from the communities as well, wanting to have something put in place that's meaningful, that's impactful and that has longevity beyond our presence. And I mean, Harmony has had experience of this in the recent past, where we were closing assets. But luckily, it was still within a very strong mining environment with a lot of life here from other operations to sustain. So we are acutely aware that whatever we put in place now and the investment we make, we need to ensure that we're leaving that for long term. And we need to ensure that we're putting investments in place that actually delivers benefits that can stand beyond the presence of mining and is independent of mining. So a good deal of effort is going into two things, managing the here and now because there's still very much a need and an expectation from host communities for us to be seen to support and do the right thing. And because we are aware that our activities and where we conduct our business affect the lives of our communities. We want to do the right thing. We want to do the honorable thing. It's in the talks to Tsakani. And he has commented on purpose, wanting to have -- create value. So we kind of split our SLP commitments in to 2, so looking at serving the more recent needs, the immediate needs, the infrastructural needs, the job creation opportunities and the social development needs. But we're also very aware that we need to structure the SLP in such a manner that is also looking to deliver in that are going to be sustainable beyond our presence. And so we're managing our investments in such a manner. And I think what is really pleasing is that this is becoming a theme and an understanding that's resonating with more than just us. It's coming out of our communities as well. So some actually goes into looking at our natural resources, looking at our skills, looking at what we can use to create ecosystems that can survive beyond us and activities and economic activities that exist beyond us. And we're looking at the agricultural aspect and we're processing by and large simply because we have the tracts of land. We have the water. These are skills that can be taught. It's portable skills that can be developed. So we bring all of those concepts together to try to set up an industry that can operate, catalyzed by us and supported by us in the present, but will become independent in the not-too-distant future. I think the other thing we're also doing is trying to focus on women empowerment. So creating opportunities, skilling, upscaling women, introducing them into supply chain, building enterprise capability and capacity, because if we uplift employment, we're uplifting township economies. We're promoting job creation. And I think those are just some of the key focal areas that we are driving as a business currently.

Fantastic. Melanie, you just said something so interesting and about township economies and about surviving beyond mining. And it's not easy for any industry to sit down and say to itself, how do I create another set of enterprises beyond the enterprise that I'm involved in. Most companies -- it's hard enough to run an enterprise without thinking about what might replace you. But I do think that with the particular nature of mining, being a finite resource these become really critical questions. Tsakani you also at Implats, in your organization, you are running a number of quite old shafts. How do you see the whole post-closure agenda? And is it something that you are concerned with at Implats?

So when it comes to mine closure and all of that conversation, our approach is, one, don't wait for closure year, i.e., a future year to rehabilitate. So we spend a lot of money to do concurrent rehabilitation. And in one of a very good cases that we're actually busy with now is, we have an old tailings dam in Rustenburg, a tailings dam in Rustenberg and we have deliberately decided to go and remine that. And with a Tier 1 company, i.e., a company from the -- we formed a JV with a company from the whole communities. We brought in a technical partner. And our plan, our goal is that we are going to remine that the hill or that hump for those that can at least imagine what a tailings dam looks like. And so that's going to be flat and that land will be handed over back to the landowner. Now that is a concept not just of what to do with mine closure. There's secular economy involved. There's gain sharing. Do it while you still can. Don't wait for end of life. That is our approach when it comes to mine closure. Obviously, there are other legal requirements such as maintaining your provisions and all of that. We still do that. But our vision is to try our best to restore consolidate stakeholders and restore some of the areas that we are having to rehabilitate. In doing so, create jobs and create sources of livelihood for those around. I also just wanted to share briefly, very briefly, on our industry-leading housing program that we're running and going on, I mean in Rustenberg and also now in -- at Zaaiplaats in Zimbabwe. Just last year, we invested just over ZAR 500 million in our housing program. And what is this for? We're creating quality accommodation for employees and their families. And so they are closer to their workplace, you minimize commute and these are -- establishments are surrounded by other services, schools and we actually built a world-class, I think early childhood center there and a primary school there and the pass rates are phenomenal. And I think this is very important because when we started this program years ago, I mean, a house that you could have purchased there for ZAR 260,000 in 2018, today, you could be selling it for almost ZAR 650,000. Now not only have we provided quality accommodation, we created an opportunity for our employees to own houses. And that helps in terms of equity and leveraging their other investments elsewhere. But this is an opportunity where you have created value and you can be proud of as an employee of our company. And I mean all those houses, they come with solar geysers and they come with a communal water bore to make sure that we minimize the stress on municipal water system. Now if you were doing it for SLP purposes, just to comply, we probably would have just built some lower-spec house and walked away. This is why we are constantly pushed and challenged, particularly by our CEO to think beyond compliance, what do we want to leave behind? How will we want to reflect back and say we were active in that particular area? Lael, if I had 2 minutes I'll probably also talk about our COVID responses. I mean we were at the forefront and the team in Rustenburg did really, really well. I think we were the first mining site to be accredited for vaccinations. And since then, we've been able to get 94% of our employees and contractors vaccinated. And now I think we're sitting at 92% full vaccination. Now, why is that important? It goes back to the earlier comment and Melanie also made that let's not focus on ESG discreetly. We need to focus on the impact of these. These are continuums. They have no boundaries from, I'll say, Melanie and I, from our practicing that perspective. So much as investors are looking to understand where our programs and activities and impact from a environmental, social and governance, that is not necessarily how we're practicing or approach it. So these 2 projects on the social front will again demonstrate how that continuum and goes all the way from the gate to the communities pipeline.

Amazing. Tsakani, you've reminded me of an old definition of sustainability that was around, I guess, when the word sustainability was very much the word that we were all using. And that, that was the idea that sustainability meant some, for all, forever. And if you think of sustainability that way, then you immediately start focusing on people and you start focusing on natural resources. And that, I think, becomes a very nice way to think about these things. Tsakani has introduced the whole idea of housing. Well, I think that needs another webinar, actually if we can stage, to Creamer Media. We really need a good conversation about housing. It's one of the really challenging aspects, I think, of being involved in mining. It's a little easier if you're in Rustenburg. It's a bit harder where I'm sitting today, which is at near Marilyn in the Pilanesberg area, all sorts of sustainability challenges that arise in relation to housing that I'm sure many companies face. So we do need to talk about housing. We also need to talk, I think, about how companies can cooperate on the SLPs. I've been involved in an initiative this year through the Minerals Council around gender-based violence and trying to set up support centers for everybody, for men and women, mostly women in communities who are experiencing gender-based violence. Because in many of the areas in which mines operate, there are simply no GBV services. For a woman experiencing GBV, she really just has to turn up at the local police station or the local hospital and kind of hope that she's going to be talked to properly and very often, she will not be talked to properly. So I reached out through the Women in Mining Leadership Forum of the Minerals Council to other companies to say, couldn't we cooperate on this matter? There's been an absolutely amazing response to that. And we are really working towards now a big partnership to try and provide GBV services. But the key to this is that we would cooperate on our SLPs because we all have SLPs. And if you think, for example, about the Western Limb of the Platinum Belt where I am at Sedibelo Resources, there are a whole lot of mining companies in our area, but we all have our own SLPs. And often, we are serving the same, we are served by and are serving the same communities. So I think there's great scope to talk about how some of the exciting SLP ideas that are happening could be done with greater cooperation between us. So now we've got some wonderful questions here. And I'm going to take one that I consider to be really interesting and a little provocative in a good way. And that is the question that has come, does ESG include an anticorruption agenda, and if so how? Sarah, Kurt, either of you are willing to take that one on?

Yes. I'll have a crack at it. Certainly within the disclosure requirements, there's a lot of focus around antibribery and corruption and what the policies are in place and following through on that. So yes, I think is the simple answer. Yes, I think Kurt, if you got any more to add.

Yes, it's certainly the simple answer, but I also believe that most companies that we are -- have been interacting so far, is they are focusing on the E&S, which are, of course, important elements. And the G, they say, it's part of being a good citizen and we are listed and so on. But in recent history, even in -- not only in South Africa, you also have it in the U.K. as examples. Some companies and we only have to think about the [indiscernible] companies. They had failed on the G. So I think it's quite important to really focus on the G element also and not take it for granted.

Thank you, Kurt. Thank you, Sarah. And also to say that in many of the indices that the industry is now responding to and reporting in terms of, the anticorruption agenda is certainly there. It's there in the form of what's known as an ABC, an anti-bribery and corruption policy. But I do think that the whole notion of accountability is a key one for ESG. We are accountable for what we do. And that accountability, I think, extends to anticorruption. We also have to be really careful in the environment in which we work because sometimes you know the companies in mining and construction come under pressure from local groupings. And we really, all have to be very careful about the way in which we manage those pressures. So that local procurement is done in a manner that has great integrity and resilience and never falls prey to groupings or forces who are trying to force their way into supply chains. So I think that's quite a complicated question you've asked in a thought-provoking way. Another interesting question -- sorry, Sarah.

I just going to say we can also just chip in, like a lot of that G around the corruption stuff also sort of leans back towards your more standard and I'm going back to the sort of a disclosure framework what you typically have out in an annual report and accounts, less so on the sort of ES&G, but it's interwoven. So sort of a default into that section as well, but it's definitely very much there.

Lael, I may also just interrupt. From a corporate perspective, from an enterprise perspective, G is very topical right now, very, very interwoven into the fabric of your business, into your DNA. I think it talks to corporate trust. And I do think that issues like anticorruption and antibribery are actually highly managed by enterprises, by listed enterprises, by organizations that really want to live their values. And so we're seeing more and more of it coming together into the organizational DNA, into the organizational fabric, a lot more policies, lot more regulation and a lot more focus on culture. If we can embed ESG and I think that's what I wanted to say upfront, if we can embed ESG as part of the culture and the fabric of the organization, these things start to see the light of day in it. It isn't just a fad or something coming in because it's driving a regulatory outcome. It really becomes the way we do business. Certainly, at Harmony, those aspects are highly regulated, highly managed and highly driven as part of our value system.

Absolutely. I think what's also very valuable about what you've said is that you've talked about company culture. And ESG is so much isn't it about shifting the cultures of organizations. And I think that's where the antibribery and corruption, you are so right to say that it's part of our values, it's part of our corporate culture. And it's also, I guess, part of our purpose that our purpose is to do business with integrity rather than to try to meet some objective. So you've given us a really important insight there. So that leads on to another interesting question that's been asked. Again, a slightly provocative in a good sense question. And that's about greenwashing. So we're being asked here, what about greenwashing? Isn't this all just new -- old wine into new bottles? Isn't -- aren't we just trying to claim that we're better than we are? Is it changing anything fundamentally or it's just giving a new form of marketing? Anybody want to have a go at the question of greenwashing? Tsakani?

Well, I'll give it a go and I'm sure the other panelists will add to it. I think there has been real concern, particularly from the fund manager side, who have latched on to the United Nations Report that just came out. I think it was 2002, just before the Sustainability Conference here in Johannesburg. And what has since happened is lot of fund managers have created what they call products. So they are selling all sort of packages, if you want to invest in an ESG-friendly portfolio. And some of those products have been found one thing i.e., not really promoting what they really was saying they are. When you look at it from Melanie and my perspective, which is, let's call it, the practitioner side, okay, the issues that we have been dealing with in our industry. And now we are now asked to essentially go beyond compliance and we should try and see if you can. I mean, the topic of decarbonization is not because necessarily there's a law, but this is because we're seeing our value in contributing to a cleaner, better environment for everyone globally. And therefore, we are wanting to participate in the shift for decarbonization. And I think the conversation on our side has probably remained authentic. It's not to say there has not been industrial mishap, whether it's tailings in Brazil or [indiscernible] or whether it's corruption cases that you're now reading about big mining companies and resource companies. But the conversation remains on our side in terms of the issues that we're dealing with. I think what we are being asked, which is not greenwashing. We are being asked to scale up beyond compliance. We are being asked to do more with others, i.e., embrace partnerships. We are being asked to embrace technology better and improve a lot of the fundamentals at the workplace. So and I think from my experience in what I've seen in a lot of mining companies, there has been real commitment to invest in water infrastructure for the communities. There's been real projects on the ground to actually improve electrification for our villages. That is a real tangible project. It's not a greenwashing. The money we spend under SLP, building bridges, making sure that communities don't get disconnected when there's heavy rains. That is real and tangible. If I can say how much money we spend with Tier 1 companies, you can go to a mine, they will give you a list, you can visit those companies and actually touch and feel. So I think now from our mining side, the conversation from our side has remained as real as it can be. It is unfortunate that from the outside, it may have been put on -- it may have been accelerated and in that urge to promote ESG products from the other side that they may have created a growth in this alignment and misunderstanding to the general public. I mean, every year, we disclose our programs, our stand, our impact at location level. If we say we built a school, there is a school built. So I would like to believe that -- and I'm not saying we don't have challenges still, we still have challenges. How much more can we do with limited resources that we often have as well as breaking the hidden windows, collaboration windows between mining companies that you have pointed, Lael. Those are opportunities that we called and knock on and actually do more that will impact our communities and stakeholders.

I am sorry. if I could just support Tsakani as well with what he is saying. I full echo everything that he said. But I also think that it goes a little beyond talks to maturity in an organization. It talks to what you value. But I think if one realizes that if ESG is implemented effectively and it improves bottom line and it makes certain that it protects business for the long term, it's easier to be authentic about implementing it as opposed to doing it for the purposes of tick-box and greenwashing. I think you have to see the real value inherent in doing it. The real value, short, medium and long-term to your business and to predicting value and to creating value in the long term. What I do think is the real shift is that ESG is not just talking about strategy any longer, it's not just talking about intent. It's forcing us to deliver. It's forcing us to have strategy-led actions and action plans that result in outcomes and impacts. And those impacts are measured and they're reported. And I think when we get to a greater maturity from an ESG perspective in terms of standardized reporting and distilling the 3,000 KPIs into a select few that is meaningful and translates to what business is doing and the impact that we're making, once we get those measurements and those benchmarks created, I think there'd be a lot less greenwashing. Because there's a lot more discretion and integrity around the information being put out. So I do think that's driving us in the direction of eliminating some of these challenges that we've experienced in the past and putting in place measures and metrics that's going to keep intact and measure and maybe and then perform in this layout.

Thank you, Melanie. And I must say, I think that's where these indices that have been -- that everybody is now responding to become useful. Because what it means is that companies do need to publish a report every year, setting out the ESG performance. And it used to be that companies would just have a couple of pages or a paragraph or two in the annual report. And then they would say it was integrated, but it wasn't really integrated. And I think what's happening now is that all of us are now publishing substantial reports dealing with lots of different parameters in which we report. And these are published documents in the public domain. And we all, therefore, I think, carry a great deal of accountability for the data that we share. And we are all under scrutiny in that sense. And I use scrutiny in a very positive sense because that's really where the notion of governance accountability is really coming forward. And if you think about the fact that resources are put into our hands, natural resources, physical resources, human resources and material financial resources, we are responsible for the resources that we manage and we must be able to report in terms of those resources. So we are beginning to run out of time, but I feel there's still so much that we need to cover. So I want to just take an opportunity in the Q&A just to deal with 1 or 2 more issues that have been raised. And so we have a question here about gender and another related question about township economies. Is there anybody who has some experience that they would like to share with us about particular initiatives in township economies or if I say township, I guess, in my world, I also mean rural economies and also any particular initiatives around the empowerment of women, either within our organizations that as employees or within the community that we serve? Anybody want to grab that question? Any inspiring ESG examples out there? Melanie?

Yes. I was just going to share on ESG, for example, so we're acutely aware of the fact that we need to empower women to be able to participate in the supply chain and procurement opportunities. And so we've set up a fund in our host communities, which enabled businesses to access start-up capital from Harmony so that they can then go and establish themselves, procure opportunities with -- it doesn't have to be us. It could be any other enterprise in that host community or beyond. But we're access enablers, supporting them with a very soft loan and easy terms, repayment terms. And in addition to that, we give them business skills and capability and assist and support them all through the development years. And I think also from an enterprise perspective, development centers are established in most of our host communities where we're welcoming and encouraging entrepreneurs from the community to participate, to sign up and to be almost nurtured into the supply chain of Harmony. And we use that opportunity to build financial and business acumen and to really orientate them for readiness to participate in our supply chain. And our enterprise and supply development program has been quite value adding and we've been able to introduce a number of new entrepreneurs into our supply chain. I think we record in our annual report and I suggest you refer to it if you want to see a little more detail on both the [indiscernible] funding project as well as our enterprise centers. But we were able to move the dial as it relates to opportunities for women and opportunities for youth through both of these initiatives.

Fantastic. Thank you, Melanie. I think it's also really interesting to see more companies reporting on the number of women working in their organizations at various levels. The number of women in particular working at senior levels. And it is really, I think, encouraging to see that women are beginning to be represented more substantively in all parts of the mining economy. But there is still a great deal of work to be done on the Women in Mining agenda. Tsakani also, I think, just now gave us a very nice example about how one can integrate the E and the S. And I must say, I think that's where the cutting edge is. If I can just give an example of the organization where I work, Sedibelo Resources. We've recently signed an MOU for the provision of 45 megawatts of wind energy for our mine, as well as an on-site solar, an on-site solar facility, which will be about 50 megawatts. And in building an on-site solar facility, it is, really becomes very sort of obvious and clear that we must then try to provide solar to the people and communities around us. Because once you are doing solar for your own mine, then you just sort of begin to have the expertise, the connections, the network and the ecosystem to also offer those resources more widely. So really exciting to see how these things are beginning to happen. So there are still quite a lot of questions on the Q&A and those that I think have not been answered here, will be answered elsewhere as well. But what I would like to do because we're just beginning to run out of time, is just to offer an opportunity to each of the panelists. And I'm going to say to the panelists, you are very welcome to either share general insights or comments that you have on the various topics covered or if you have seen something in the Q&A that hasn't been answered. For example, there's a very interesting question about people who are displaced, initiatives where people have been relocated and there may be somebody with some experience in that field. But I'm going to offer to each panelist the opportunity to comment or to answer a particular question that they might wish to answer. And Tsakani, if you don't mind, I'm going to start with you.

No. Thanks, Lael and to the panelists and colleagues that joined on the line. I think for me, what has become very clear is with the pushback and everything else undesirable that the acronym ESG might have brought to multiple stakeholders. Some are confused, some are trying to figure out what, how and all of that. What I do see coming very strongly is similar to health and safety, particularly in mining, the way it has now moved and matured to the shop floor level, I think there are a few areas within, call it, the ESG parameters that are likely going to, on their own, be accelerate or need to add that much acceleration. And one of them is to do with how we respond to climate change, both from mitigation and adaptation perspective and not just for our operations, but also to the communities at the gate. I think that's going to be a big issue linked with that. I think biodiversity conservation is likely also going to feature strongly because the negative impact of the change in climate, some, oftentimes, will expose the bias here. And that also obviously exposes some of our long-term infrastructure such as tailings when it comes to climate change. So I believe that there's going to be that laser focus or a more concerted focus on how companies are building resilience, how they are managing expectations, managing risks and opportunities around the impact of climate chain. This is not only physical but also goes all the way to strategies and new business models. So you've seen a lot of other mining companies pivoting and going into non-or other allied metals. And it's all in response to the transition towards green and lower carbon economy. And I believe that very quickly, one of those within the ESG. The second one that's going to also become very key, I think it's going to be data. Lael, you've been very hard on accountability, accountability. I think data integrity is going to come under the spotlight because it underpins everything we say we've done, we are going to do. I think let me leave it at that for now. I'm sure we'll get feedback from the team on some of the questions and we'll be happy to get in touch with -- to follow through. Thank you.

Thank you, Tsakani and thank you for sharing really a wealth of experience with us. And thanks also for mentioning tailings. We probably need a whole webinar on tailings. We've all seen what can happen to tailings 20 or 30 years after the mine has closed. And it's a big conversation that we do need to have as an industry. Sarah Cooper, closing comments from you.

Sure. So I just wanted to go back to this -- the question on greenwashing. And I'd say as ESG has matured and it's starting to be better understood as a way to derisk and optimize opportunity and value that cynical greenwashing that was perhaps happening 10 years ago, is not so. And then there's a lot of mechanisms coming into play to also prevent that with increased requirements around assurance and that links to Tsakani's point just now about data. I'd expect that the data has to be assured in the next couple of years. There's already big moves towards that overseas. And then other frameworks such as the RGMP, so the Responsible Gold Mining Principles also require sort of assurance towards that. And then you've got things like with the new GRI standard updates requirements around double materiality, which look at financial and impact materiality and how those are being integrated at Board and management level and into decision making. So I think that's that. And then the other point. And it's sort of, I guess, a labor of mine this year is, mining as an industry. We get a lot of focus on the environmental stuff. And the social is there, but we don't tell the story well enough. Mining is critical for achieving the UN SDGs through transition metals, et cetera. But the other part of it is actually all this positive social benefit that comes alongside when a mine opens in a community through the job creation, through taxes, royalties, procurement and then the social investment that's also made as well. And going back to sort of investors and that millennial change. If they don't understand that and I don't know how well this is still understood outside of industry, then they're going to shy away from investing, I think. And so to win the hearts and minds, we just need to tell that story better. And part of that has to happen at the framework level. We know that the metrics that are requested around social tend to focus on dollar spend and we need to start showing impact better.

Substance and not only inputs. Thank you so much, Sarah. Thank you for those really helpful insights and for everything that you've shared today. Kurt, a comment from you and then I'll close with Melanie.

Okay. I think -- and it's mentioned here before, with the example of safety. The role that leadership plays and certain executive leadership in a complete place is incredibly important. And many years ago, safety was also initially not really taken seriously as well, became only serious when it became a hard incentive for the top leadership. And I think for certain aspects and targets for ESG, it also needs to happen and it's already happening in certain mining houses and in certain companies. So that's the first one. Then to come back on the element of greenwashing. I agree with Melanie. It's all about implementation and showing that there is value being provided. And therefore, you really need to get the right data, accurate and transparent data, Again, to show because I think if people look into their annual reports or integrated reports currently, there are lots of data in this reports. But if you would ask the people come and show me where the data are coming from, now you putting your hands in the fire for the data then that's becoming an issue. So I think around data transparency, accuracy is certainly an important element. And I think implementation can help in there. And then I think also what we have seen more from a construction or one of our construction brands that we are working for, but they are doing a lot of work in the mining houses is that while people are talking great, and it's -- I'm talking generically, so I'm not talking about Harmony or Implats, but are talking around the E element in the construction projects or for instance, at this stage, still tender based on price. So even if you put a lot of value at regarding lower carbonization, your projects are not being differentiated enough because price isn't one of the elements that impact or predominant in the mix first. I think companies also need to think about their organization model. And while the CEO can have the right thinking and the ESG departments can have the right thinking also in the other areas of and divisions of the company, like, for instance, in procurement divisions things have to change and targets have to be changed. And that will take time, but I'm sure that it will happen.

Thank you, Kurt, for all of those very timely reminders. And as you said, it is all about walking the talk. It is all about implementation. Melanie, a closing comment from yourself.

Thank you, Lael. I just wanted to say that I think ESG is here to stay. It's not a fad. It's not a short-term intervention. I think it is core to your business. I think it's going to be your differentiator. I think it's going to be your competitive advantage. And I do think businesses really need to start thinking, corporates really need to start thinking as to how they start incorporating and embedding it into decision making within the organization. I urge businesses and firms to start having the conversations in the boardroom. That's where it starts. Talking ESG and strategy intertwined, not separated, not independent of each other. It needs to make its way into operational practices. It needs to be built into life of mine planning. It needs to compete for capital. It needs to be a consideration in growth prospects. It needs to be a part of our KPIs. I really think it needs to start guiding the way businesses, corporates manage their 6 capitals. And I think once we're able to internalize it like that, ESG becomes the way we do business and becomes so integral to the whole business ecosystem that it's not a standalone any longer. And I just hope that we move in that direction and we can get to that point where we can then very categorically leave the dual impact, both financial and societal or purpose driven. Thanks, Lael.

Thank you, Melanie and for all the wonderful insights that you've given us throughout the course of this webinar. I must say, I think we've had four really outstanding panelists today. And we've really got a lot of very, very useful information and the good conversation that we've had. And I think we should really end with Melanie's insight that ESG is here to stay. If I think about the organization that I work for, Sedibelo Resources. So my position is called Chief ESG Officer. And I think that demonstrates the idea that ESG indeed is here to stay. It's part of the -- it's part of the fabric, it's part of the culture of our organizations and that is the only way that we are going to do business in our industry and in South Africa, is with integrity in a way that is purpose-driven and not a tick box exercise. It's been great to have everybody on this webinar. We've had a wonderful large audience and has stayed with us throughout. We've had lots of good questions. And I'm going to hand over to Shannon now to close us out. Over to you Shannon.

Thanks very much, Lael. That brings us to the end of our webinar. I'd like to take this opportunity to say thank you very much to our facilitator Lael Bethlehem for enabling a robust and engaging discussion on this important topic affecting the mining industry. Thank you also very much to our panelists, Melanie Naidoo-Vermaak from Harmony Gold Mining Company; Dr. Tsakani Mthombeni from Implats; Sarah Cooper from Digby Wells Environmental Consultants; and Kurt Roelandt from Envision Advisory services. Thank you once again to our strategic partner, Harmony Gold Mining Company and also our sponsors Ukwazi Mining Solutions, Digby Wells Environmental Consultants, Implats, Sibanye Stillwater and Envision Advisory Services for their valued support. And finally, thank you to the attendees for taking your time to join us for this discussion on deepening commitment to ESG in South Africa's mining sector. We hope you find it engaging and informative. You would have seen in the chat that our next webinar will focus on the challenges facing South Africa's transport and logistics sector. This takes place on 26th October from 2:00 to 4:00. The link to register for that session was shared in the chat. The recording of today's webinar will be sent to you in due course. And if you have any additional questions, please be in touch. You can reach us at [email protected]. Thank you so much for your time, and goodbye.