Heidelberg Materials AG (HEI) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for standing by. Welcome, and thank you for joining the Heidelberg Materials First Quarter 2023 results. [Operator Instructions] It is my pleasure, and I would now like to turn the conference over to Christoph Beumelburg. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you, operator. Good morning, good afternoon, everyone listening to the call for our Q1 call in 2023. We're excited to be here with René, our CEO -- our CFO; and Dominik, our CEO and the IR team. And without further ado, I hand over to Dominik for some prepared remarks. We have ample time to go into the Q&A session thereafter.

Okay, Chris, thanks a lot, and hello to all of you. I hope you're all well. I think the start, if you go to the key messages, was a very good one for us. I think much better than prior year, even better than our record year in Q1 '21. So overall, the lights are on green. Our revenue, up 13%; RCO up almost EUR 170 million over prior year. So I think I would say [indiscernible] that are here with me, not too bad. This is driven by strong pricing, disciplined cost management and somewhat declining volumes. We gave you the reasons for that, but I'm sure some of you will come back with the questions on that. Anyway, what's important for us is the margin development that is clearly recovering after last year. We are moving now towards the levels of '21, which is our next midterm point where we want to get to. We are partly accelerating our sustainable growth, and we also -- not only organically but also through M&A. And that's very important for us. That's also why we have started now for the first time to focus as we have internally done for a while now also in our external communication on sustainable revenues. You will remember the discussion at the Capital Market Day, and I will come back to that. But our CEM business alone has already reached 37% of their revenues being sustainable, so a CO2 reduction of more than 30%. So we have a very strict barrier in there. I'm sure some of you may ask around that anyway. And then last but not least, we have -- we are very optimistic for the remainder of the year. So we have upgraded -- although it's early in the year, we've upgraded our guidance for the full year and now are confident to deliver EUR 2.5 billion to EUR 2.65 billion RCO from the previous EUR 2.35 billion to EUR 2.65 billion. If we go to the chart on Page 3, you see that revenue is strongly up 13%. I think that's a very strong performance. EBITDA is significantly up 50% in percentage terms; in actual terms, EUR 163 million. And then operating EBITDA margin, that's important, crawling back towards the 13.6%, which is the next midterm point that we want to reach from Q1 '21 significantly improved over prior year. And consequently, also the EBIT up [ EUR 770 million ] and even above the record year of '21. If you go to Page 4, you see some of the drivers. There is a hit on the currency side. So actually, if you look at the reported ones, I think that euro has strengthened. So some of the other currencies are clearly [ leading ]. We have a volume decline effect that's basically going across all business lines, a little bit more increment than in aggregate. And that's clearly driven, from our perspective, what we said earlier, by a sharp decline in housing in overall key mature markets, so Europe, U.S. and Australia. But it's very much outbalanced, to a large extent, not to all extent, otherwise, this would not be negative, both in terms of commercial, I would rather say, industrial and then also infrastructure. Offices are maybe a little bit on the decline, or the industrial stuff [indiscernible] transformation is clearly on the right and also on the infrastructure side. So net-net, volumes are down. But you see the price over cost work very well. We have managed our costs very tightly, also helped by a little bit coming down energy costs but not only. And then obviously, also the pricing realization was again good. So all in all, I think a very satisfying profit bridge. If you then go to North America, we said this very openly last year we were not satisfied with our performance in North America. But this year, the team has even delivered above the good '21 performance. So we are clearly back in North America with [ skies only the limit ]. I think we have still more room for deliver result-wise, but strong performance in Q1 from the [indiscernible] on the back of very good volume development. I think that is really strong in North America and good momentum there. We have solid pricing. The momentum is there to additionally move the pricing in almost all business lines, in almost all markets, and order books are still healthy. So in that respect, we stay very positive North America. Remember, in North America, our big [ future ] plants come on stream right now, the one in Indiana, which obviously brings us an additional margin opportunity. Western and Southern Europe, I think the numbers speak for themselves, a strong performance on the top line. Then a very strong performance on the RCO line, much above the good Q1 '21. As you see, WSE is the only region where the margin sits in Q1 above even the strong margin in Q1 '21. So I think very strong performance from WSE. Overall, I think not much to say. I think the numbers speak for themselves. And this is, just to be clear, carried by our market in WSE. So this is another one-off with one market. This is carried by our market. So overall, a strong performance from WSE. Northern and Eastern Europe on Page 7, stabilizing on a high level, I would say, beating their strong guidance '21 and RCO level and clawing back on their margins, almost back to 3% RCO margin versus 3.6% from '21. The demand is lower in most of those countries. That's true for Northern Europe. It's true for most countries in Eastern Europe. But we are working hard on the cost, and we are also obviously working on the pricing. And the combination there also price over cost continues to work well. And that obviously then also leads to improved margins. APAC is coming back. Last year, we were disappointed with APAC. Some of the countries didn't -- not really come back after the COVID lockdown. But you see there is now although moderate speed turnaround, but I think there is a significant turnaround. As we always clearly improved on the back of a much better performance also in Australia. Indonesia are running well. I would say, China and India had still some significant upside potential. There, we cannot be satisfied. China is actually moving in the right direction again. So overall, I think the APAC, we have fairly high hopes that this will come back much better throughout the year. And the same is true also for Africa. You know that Africa had a tough end of last year already. Q4 was not even for Africa. Q1 was also not easy, but I think they have stabilized. Now a little bit currencies. Egypt and Ghana were heavy under pressure. They have stabilized a little bit on a lower level. So overall, we are optimistic for the remainder of the year in Africa, more optimistic than we were probably at the end of last year. So the emerging markets, we see clearly light at the end of the tunnel. In that respect, the train is moving in the right direction. Yes. And then very importantly, as you know, for us, to be the global leader on sustainability in heavy building materials. SBTi has validated our ambitious target to be in line with the 1.5-degree target from Paris. I think that's good, and that is on the back, obviously, also of our very ambitious road map that is not carried by [ wish-and-hopes ] projects only but actions. So the start-up dates coming closer: in Brevik, next year; Lengfurt, the CCU project that we've communicated, in '25; Edmonton, we've made the communication, in '26; and then Padeswood in the U.K. in '28. So you see year-over-year, we are really pushing a step change in terms of decarbonization of the industry. So in that respect, we are well on track. And the same is true for circular. We've made a couple of acquisitions in circular in the U.S., in U.K. and also in -- lately in Germany. And we are very happy with the progress there. Also organically, I think we did really momentum on the recycling discussion. And the same is then obviously true for SEFA, but if you wish to say so also some sort of a recycling and decarbonization at the same time. That's also why these go hand in hand because they basically recycle dry ash and [indiscernible] ash and use it again in fresh concrete. So I think we have some very interesting acquisition, I think, a little bit underestimated by the capital markets at this point. But let's say we will prove you that this will be a great addition to the group. And then last but not least, a very interesting project in Europe in our hometown in Heidelberg, Europe's largest 3D printed buildings. I tell you, this is an exciting endeavor, and this will be more -- there will be more to come. This will be something that we can clearly build on. Let me go to Page 11. On the SEFA discussion, we communicated in most of those details. So I won't go into all corners of this here. Clearly, for us, it will reduce our carbon footprint overall in North America. I think that's significant because the materials decarbonize. And it will be a significant help also for the supply chain of -- the value chain of cement and concrete to decarbonize because you know that they are supplying 800 concrete plants, 8-0-0 concrete plants in the U.S., and there is more potential going forward. So in that respect, I think, a great platform to make a step change not only for Heidelberg Materials in North America but also for the industry in North America. And you remember, we don't want to only work within our own company. We also want to drive the value chain to decarbonize. That's the purpose here. That was always a discussion around [ command ] [indiscernible] and other things. So in that respect, I think we are well on track. Portfolio optimization, Page 12, sometimes, it still gets a little bit unnoted, very heavy movement in our portfolio. As you see here, if you wish to say so, a little bit of move towards the West, strengthening of the U.S., strengthening of Europe and also parts of Africa. And then maybe going a little more on the East side of the globe, starting with the latest divestment also from our Georgia joint venture. So in that respect, I think portfolio optimization continues, absolutely in line with our rigid financial metrics that we've set because remember, we don't do this just to do a portfolio reorganization. We do this to further grow and to further optimize our financial performance. And then last but not least, the upgraded guidance where the RCO has now moved to EUR 2.5 billion to EUR 2.65 billion. The risk remains unchanged. And again, clear message from our side, this is early in the year. It's a small quarter. But for us, the lights are on green. So in that respect, we look very optimistic into the next 3 quarters of the year. That's it from my side. I would say, let's go to the questions. We're looking forward to your questions.

Absolutely, we can start the Q&A now.

[Operator Instructions]

First question is from Elodie Rall from JPMorgan.

So I'll start with your guidance. So you have upgraded it, but obviously, you haven't upgraded the top end of the guidance of [indiscernible] range. But if we look at Q1 trends and assume a continuation of these trends given the comps, I think, clearly, and given the seasonality, we would be expecting the top end of the guidance to be upgraded as well. So my question is, why didn't you upgrade that top end of the range? Is it because you expect pricing to decrease from here or cost to increase? So that's my first question on guidance. And second, as well on guidance as well, you expect like-for-like revenue growth for the year. But we started with 13% in Q1 [ to come to get ] easy on volumes, harder on pricing. But overall, what kind of like-for-like growth do you expect for '23?

Maybe Elodie -- thanks for your questions, first of all, I think they're not surprising. I think your analysis, I'm not pushing back on that. I think you're right. The trend continues, you can exactly make that point, which I don't [ just ] back on. However, as I said, it's early in the year. I think the year is long. So we ask for your understanding that we are under the company. We have paid for actions. I think we've [ achieved ] most of the stuff that we've promised. So in that respect, that's what we're trying to continue to do. Even from our side, we do not expect a massive change in gears. Especially, we don't expect any reduction in pricing. That's clearly not baked into any of our discussions. That's not what we see. So in that respect, we will continue to factor the right value for our products. We are going against a decline in demand. That has been made confirmed. And that's why we -- also one of the unknowns, so we don't know exactly, but it's a market-by-market question. I think I [ foresee ] a little bit by area how the volume demand looks. And then on the cost side, I think things are improving on the energy side, continue to improve. It sits always at the current level, and fixed cost management will become a key focus topic going forward because there is further inflation. René, anything to add on the revenue side, maybe?

Yes. On the revenue side, Elodie, we have realized in Q1 13% up, but it's a slow quarter, small absolute number than the percentage increase. It's always easy to achieve. So we stick to what we said, and as Dominik said, the year's long, which you can expect when we come out with our Q2 numbers, we will see if we need to change something on our guidance or not.

Yes, but I agree with you, Elodie, where your analysis is right. This is probably a very strong performance on the top line in Q1. I agree with you.

Thanks, Elodie. Next question comes from Paul Roger from BNP Exane Paribas.

Maybe I can do the first one. Just trying to ask to be a little bit more specific on price costs. I mean, clearly, we saw a very strong spread in Q1, almost EUR 250 million. As you go through 2023, costs fee or the base becomes tougher for pricing. So what's your view on how that will evolve throughout the rest of the year? And I guess I'm really trying to understand that, but Q1 was a bit of a peak when it comes to the [ spread ]. So that's the first question. And the second question is on carbon capture. I mean you've clearly shown on Slide 10, this is not all talk. You've obviously got schemes out going ahead. I was just wondering if there's potential to capture more than 10 million tonnes by 2030 or whether that target already assumed that all that projects we would go ahead.

Okay. Thanks, Paul, for your questions. Interesting. I think on the price over cost, let's wait, you know how price over cost works. You have to realize the price, and you heard my earlier remarks on Elodie's question. We are confident on the pricing. And then the cost is always variable costs and fixed costs. I think -- and that's why I also said, I think last year was very much a variable cost game. I think the variable cost game and the energy stabilized a little bit more. We are a little bit getting more into stabilized water, but maybe René can comment on that a little bit. And fixed cost management will become key especially if volumes decline. I think that's clear. So the shift within this price over cost will shift between variable cost and fixed cost a little bit in our management focus, but the top line will be -- continue to be defended. Now are we going to see another 20% price increase? No, I don't think that's realistic, and I'm also being very transparent with you. But I think there are markets where we still have pricing upside. For me, exactly in North America, very clear pricing upside in North America, especially in aggregates. And the same, I would say, is partly true for our other markets like Australia. And as I said, in emerging markets, we have to watch market by market. There, the picture looks different. And then we'll need to see how it will work out in Europe, but you won't see another 20% price increase in Europe in the short term, but we [ don't know ] what I expect. It's my personal view if you ask me specifically around that. And then on carbon capture, let's do one step after the other. We have paid for delivery, not for announcements. So I think in that respect, our ambition is high. But first of all, we need to be very clear, and you need to understand and trust into the -- those announcements a couple of years back to say we want to capture 10 million tonnes. I know -- I remember very well that moment we said that I will [indiscernible] what are we going to do. And now we can't run fast enough before even the first project is online. So let us get a [ very big ] online. We will be the first one globally that will prove this can be done on large scale. And then we have all the know-how, the experience, the data points in how to be able to accelerate. And I think that's the message, and then the sky will be the limit.

Thanks, Paul. Next question comes from Luis Prieto from Kepler Cheuvreux.

I had a couple of questions very briefly. The first one is that you seem to have stopped providing volume detail like some of your competitors. But could you give us an idea of what the actual volume and price performance would have been in the quarter at group at European levels? I'm particularly curious on that volume front. And the second question is regarding -- and apologies for completely changing the subject here. But regarding working capital, we saw a tough year for the industry in '22. What could we expect for this year? Have you seen any major damage in Q1? And what could you expect for the full year?

Okay. Let me take the first one. And then René will take the second one, Luis. So as I said, I think on the volume, it's not too -- it's more a matter of how we steer the company internally. We also want to evolve externally. That means that the only reason why we change. Our [indiscernible] share is opening really well. We had a vivid discussion around this internally what we do here. But also with our clear focus on sustainability, we have Nicola on board. And we really want to make sure we've communicated in the capital markets that we want to go for sustainable revenues, very strict hurdle rates on [ 30% ] reduction in CO2. So I think we've set very high bars for that. And we feel now very confident that we are delivering against that bar and that we can also be very transparent with you around that delivery. That's why we decided to switch the focus from pure straight-out volumes because that doesn't say much. For us, the [ betterment ] of the future is both for our customers and for our financial performance in the acceleration of sustainable products. And that's why we want to also externally put the focus on the sustainable product development and progress and that we switch gear to the 37% sustainable revenues. On the volume itself, single-digit percentage declines on sales volumes on average. So I think nothing dramatic, but with a deeper decline in Western and Southern Europe, that's very low double digits. That gives you a little bit, I think, a range and a significant increase in North America. So I think that's a little bit the picture, Luis, that gives you a good idea about the volume.

Luis, in terms of working capital, as you rightly pointed out, the industry had a tough year last year. Obviously, there was a capital outflow, and we've seen our numbers. This year, it's very clear there is no further cash outflow [ from ] our working capital. I imagine it's very tight. And in Q1, we have already seen this, obviously, the industry is [ they want the capital outflow to be ] clear. But that number is typically more than we had last year in Q1. So last year, end of last year, [indiscernible] cash outflow of EUR 800 million. Do we want this obviously above? No. Do we want to recover, hopefully, a few hundred million? Yes. Right now, the trend is good, but let's see that for sure, no further outflow, rather cash inflow.

The next one comes from Brijesh Siya from HSBC.

So a couple from me as well. So starting with -- on buyback, you haven't announced anything yet, and I understand there's EUR 300 million left, too. So if you could comment or update on that when it's coming. And then the second one is on the SEFA acquisition in U.S., the fly ash one. My understanding is that probably fly ash is not going to be there forever given the power plants that are coming to an end on the coal-fired one. So what is the rationale behind getting that? Is that because they have certain resource in place which you want to utilize? Or what's the rationale going forward for that?

Brijesh, I think -- thank you very much for your clearly -- especially for your second question. I think that would be an interesting one. On the first one, René can also comment. Buyback, we've communicated that. We want the one [indiscernible] time until September. There is no final decision made on the timing yet. So I think there's not much more to say on that. On the SEFA, it's interesting exactly that's how internally the discussion started because all coal-fired power plants come to an end, so why do you buy into a reducing market? So there is trillions of tonnes globally on [indiscernible] ash. Quite frankly, [indiscernible] I also didn't know for a couple of years back. So basically, all fly ash that was not used in the past but basically we put into dumps. And half of the U.S. sits only in [indiscernible] of all size. By the way, not only the U.S. but also parts of Europe. We are always [indiscernible] via 4 plants dump their material, and that becomes more and more an environmental problem. Why? Because it potentially pollutes groundwater. So there are more and more rigid legislation coming to force the energy companies to pull this out of the ground. And obviously, they want to commercialize this, and that is exactly the idea of SEFA. So they have basically teamed up with a couple of the larger power plant producers in the U.S. and basically develop equipment and the technology to recycle that [indiscernible] ash and basically use it within the standard in the concrete -- fresh concrete production and a fully decarbonized product. And that's -- I don't have to say more than that. That's the magic behind SEFA.

Understood. And just a quick follow-up on that. So does that require any more chemical addition when you kind of extract from ground and try to use it in concrete -- fresh concrete. I mean my question is whether that does have the same characteristics compared to a fresh from a coal-fired power plant.

Nothing is exactly the same, but there is not a massive difference between -- ash and ash is very different. Every coal-fired power plant in the end, a different ash, whether it's fresh or coal-made. So you always have to check a little bit there. So there is always optimization that you need to do, but it's not like we suddenly need something completely different [indiscernible] we are already using in other parts of the world where we buy it and not pollute ourselves like in [indiscernible] from the ash to small volumes. So it's not like we don't have any experience how to use [indiscernible] ash. There is nothing -- there is experience in how to do this. And it's nothing negative in terms of other additions you have to do in order to become a fresh concrete product.

Next question is from Yuri Serov from Redburn.

Two questions, I'll ask them one by one. The first one -- and I'm sorry it's going to sound a bit [indiscernible], but on prices, you say that don't see prices falling anywhere. But recently, there was a data point from the U.K. showing that in March -- it's from the ONS. I don't know how reflective it is from your prices, but nonetheless, for the full market and ensure that prices in cement in March actually fell month by month -- month-on-month by a fairly sizable amount. So would -- are you truly not seeing any price declines? Are you -- and we're sitting in May now, so it's quarter 2. I mean what is going on around the world? Can you just give us an overview, please?

Yes. Yuri, I can only repeat what I said before. We don't see on a broad level of pricing coming down. And the very big example in the U.K., you have to be very careful. There is cement, and then we are a deep [indiscernible] provider. So I think there is always -- the question for us is [indiscernible] in the end. Careful with that. I think the statistics -- I know everybody is watching this closely. As I said in WSE, I don't see significant pricing upsides. That's what I said. And that means in pockets, you can still improve your pricing, but in other pockets, it may come back here and there, but that's not on a broad level of what we see, and that's also not what we expect from our perspective. So let's wait and see how this -- but there's nothing to add to what I said before.

You had a second question, Yuri?

Yes. Second question is actually not concerning -- well, not immediately concerning Q1. I'm curious. I mean can you please give us some better idea as to the schedule of your launch in the U.S.? What exactly your new plant coming on? And when will you finish the optimization of the plant around it? And similarly, it's further away, but I'm curious about the same thing in France when your projects there are finishing.

You're curious about what?

Your project in France also.

[ I think he ] has a couple questions on...

Yuri, you cut off or -- can you...

Can you hear me now?

We're good. So Yuri's just cut up.

Let me take the next question, and I'll come back to when he's back.

Okay. Next question is then from Arnaud Lehmann from Bank of America.

Two questions. The first one is just coming back on, let's say, pricing. I'm sorry about that. Yes, can you hear me?

Operator?

Hello, can you hear me?

Yes. This is the operator, and we can hear the questioners. I'm hearing them. The participants, please bear with us. [Technical Difficulty]

Okay, perfect. And we'll continue. Yuri, sorry for the technical glitch here. We'll continue with your question on [indiscernible]. Actually, the plant is running. It is producing the clinker already. It's producing also cement. So the start-up is actually going as planned, in that respect, moving in the right direction. And most of the optimization around it, you will be surprised, will be done by the end of this year. So we are very pushing ahead with this. We have all the trust that we get, and we push as hard as we can. Obviously, a plant start-up is always a plant product. So there will be a problem [ x, y, z ], but we have a very strong team in place to handle that. We are in constant contact with them. And overall, as I said, the plant start-up goes as planned, and we expect significant value being driven from that.

Sorry, Yuri, for the technical glitch. I think we have Gregor now online, Gregor Kuglitsch From UBS, and the next one after him would be Arnaud Lehmann online from Bank of America. So Gregor?

A couple of questions. So you mentioned, I think, 5 times roughly that you want to recover the '21 margins, which were, I think, nearly 21%. Last year, you did bit under 18%, and obviously, kind of arithmetically, it means there is very significant EBITDA upside. So I just wanted to understand your time line. What do you need to get there? Or is it sort of just the medium-term ambition? Then maybe sort of a quick question on the M&A slide. There's lots of deals in and out. Can you just give us a sense what sort of the net cost of all of this stuff is, so basically, the deals that you've done, the acquisitions minus the disposal for -- basically the cost and roughly on the EBITDA you get for that? And then sorry, if I can squeeze in the third. This 37%, can you just remind us how you actually define that? So what qualified as being sustainable? Is it -- what's the definition basically of that 37% in cements?

Yes, let us take one after [ one ]. You are a little [indiscernible]. We'll go -- we'll take it from here. Let me do the margin one, and then René will do the M&A one, and then I'll come back to the sustainable revenue one. So on the margin one, very simple short answer, target remains to be there by '25. Let's take one step after the other. At the end of last year, everybody thought you're not -- you're never going to come back to that margin. Now I think we are climbing our way back up. And then how we space out on revenues and top line and bottom line is wait and see. But our target remains to get to the 21% at the latest by 2025. And then let's go through this year and see how much we can gain from last year, okay? Then René, maybe you want to work on...

Gregor, you have a nice question. So let me just come a little bit back, and I will sum up now. We [indiscernible] here. So [indiscernible] and the 2 German ones, SER and RWG, and then SEFA, so this obviously the exciting one, and then I will [indiscernible] to [ Georgia ] in the business. So if you book this [ 1, 2, 3, 4 ] or [ view ] together, the net M&A CapEx for this is roughly EUR 420 million. And the EBITDA contribution is roughly -- let me just -- we have problems. France is a [ EUR 50 million, EUR 60 million ] EBITDA contribution net, so we can make the multiple. It's a good multiple, and I think that's all the way down. And that is why we [ did the portfolio ]. We saw these -- really the prices [indiscernible], which will be a multiple [indiscernible]. So the ongoing [indiscernible] controlled.

Right. EBITDA [indiscernible] oddly. I think that the [indiscernible] increase our EBITDA, not to just increase the revenue. It's based financial difficulty in those metrics that we've communicated and that also applies to those transactions. Then on your last question on the 37% revenue, I think, thank you for that question because I think a little bit difficult to grasp for all of you now what's happening here. I think we have been very transparent with you in our Capital Markets Day, and I think it's good that you will come back to that point because we have said we are not going to -- not every small reduction of CO2 leads to this sustainable revenue here. We sadly had a very strict hurdle rate. We need admit a new product that you offer. In this case, [indiscernible] needs to have at least a 30% reduced CO2 footprint against the global average of the GCCA. That's transparent figure, you can look at that. So the global average of the GCCA is the baseline [indiscernible]. And then from there, you need to reduce 30% of your CO2 footprint in order to reach the same as revenue. Now just as one interesting story around that. You know that the U.S. is decarbonizing fast, but the sustainable revenue hurdle that we have put in here does not even hit some of -- really most of the U.S. [indiscernible]. So in that respect, there is more opportunities to come. Very strict hurdle with the 30%, and even with that return of the 37% of the portfolio, which is, I think [indiscernible], the flip side of the book can -- we have to go low. We are globally leading on the kilograms per tonne of cement [indiscernible], and this is a reflection of this, which does come from [ heaven ]. This is hard work to remove one tonne after one tonne put beyond 30% more.

Next question from Yassine Touahri from On Field.

So a couple of questions. I think, first, you mentioned that this acquisition in the U.S. in fly ash supply, it was potentially underestimated by the financial markets. What do you think that the financial market is missing? And then the second question is on volume. So you had a single-digit volume decline in Q1. Can you give us a bit of color on what do you see for the rest of the year? Have you seen any change in April and in early May? Do you feel that the Q1 was the bottom? Or do you feel we could see some sort of deterioration?

Yassine, thanks a lot. Let me do the question on fly ash, and then maybe René and I jointly can give you a flavor on the volume development. Now on fly ash, I think the one question that we had earlier from Luis, I think, is the one piece. I think that more -- the perception fly ash becoming scarce and then the price becoming scarce is fresh fly ash, not on the fly ash. That's the first underestimation, the large volumes of available fly ash. And secondly, I think, mostly in our industry, you are a -- you find a lot of fly ash freighters and a very limited fly ash producers. And [ SEFA ] is not a trader. They are a producer of fly ash. So they also have developed a specific technology, how to reclaim and recycle the [ polished ] ash to be in the [indiscernible] of fresh concrete. And those 2 arguments are the ones that I think are not yet understood.