Heidelberger Druckmaschinen Aktiengesellschaft (HDD) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Thank you, and good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to Heidelberg's Conference Call on the first half year results of fiscal year '23/'24. I'm glad you're here, and I'm looking forward to the discussion. Our first slide shows the agenda of today's call. I will start with providing you an overview about our 6 months results. And then my colleague and CFO, Tania von der Goltz, will take you through the financials, followed by an update on our ESG activities that I will present to you. And finally, we will conclude with our outlook for the current fiscal year before welcoming your questions. Well, let's have a look at the first slide, and I would like to start with a summary on our half year results. Firstly, I would like to comment on the overall economic situation. The global economy continues to be fragile and is facing a multitude of challenges. Interest rates have grown significantly in the last 18 months, impacting economic growth globally. The ongoing war in Ukraine and the emergence of new conflicts in the Middle East have added to the global uncertainties further. However -- and that's the good news. Heidelberg managed the first half of the financial year quite well. When assessing our performance after 6 months, I'm really pleased to report that Heidelberg is demonstrating some resilience in face of these challenges. Orders received have maintained stability, both in the second quarter and over the course of the first half of the year. We ended up at EUR 1.18 billion, corrected for exchange rate effects. This is really exactly on prior year level. However, markets seem to be slowing down somewhat. But I would like to point out that we do not see a sharp decline or even a drop. I assume that our global footprint helps us to balance local market variations. As you will see in a minute, order intake in the Packaging segment continues to grow on a year-over-year basis. At the same time, commercial printing customers have become more cautious with the investments, although we continue to see stable printing volumes in this segment. Our order backlog remains to be on a solid level, although it is somewhat below the level of previous year's second quarter. Net sales came in at 2.5% below prior year. However, corrected for currency exchange rate effects, sales was, again, pretty much exactly on last year's level. The adjusted EBITDA margin was up by 100 basis points year-over-year. Regional mix, in particular, stronger business in Asia Pacific was beneficial. I should mention that we continued to counter cost increases by price adjustments successfully. Considering these developments in the first half of the year, we are confident to meet our annual targets and reiterate our guidance. I will come back to that in the last part of the presentation. So let's look at the next slide. Before we move on to the detailed discussion of the financials, I would like to highlight a few developments within our Packaging segment. As you can see in the chart, the group's share of packaging sales has been growing continuously over the recent quarter. Year-over-year, the share was up by solid 6 percentage points, which is really quite remarkable. Looking back further into our history, this trend is not new. The share of packaging sales has grown from around 30% in 2014 to almost 50% now. The development is certainly driven by fundamental shifts of our market. However, our recent innovation initiatives drive into the same direction. So let me provide you a further update on the product launches. For our core market in packaging/printing, which is the folding carton segment, we introduced the flexo printing machine, Boardmaster, in May of this year. The machine is designed for high volume print run. We are pleased that it has been well received by the target customer group, with the first installations already in place. Also, the Gallus One, our second-generation inkjet label printing system, has received positive feedback from our customers, demonstrating Heidelberg's capabilities in the important digital printing field. As you know, this market is highly attractive. While in offset printing, consumables are commodities. The situation is fundamentally different in digital printing. Customers need to buy the ink for their printing machine from the machine vendor. Certainly, we are still in the early stages of our rollout to the market. But with a growing installed base, the sales of proprietary ink will continue to contribute more and more to the share of our recurring revenue. So let me conclude on the trends in packaging. I think it is remarkable that despite of the sluggish overall economy, the underlying growth drivers of the Packaging segment remain intact. Consequently, many packaging printers continue to execute their investment plans. While packaging is a global friend, we observed the Asia Pacific region to gain significance. And this comes as no surprise given that the largest share of the global population resides in this region, where Heidelberg maintains an industry-leading position. Studies project that approximately 45% of global packaging activity will be concentrated in the Asia Pacific region by 2030. Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, so much about that. And now I would like to hand over to Tania for more details on the financials.

Thank you, Ludwin. Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. Before discussing where we stand after 6 months, let me briefly summarize the key developments of the second quarter for you. Orders received continued to demonstrate a stable trend in a sluggish economic environment, decreasing by 4.5% year-over-year to EUR 594 million, due to some currency headwinds, [ with ] FX adjusted, the decrease was only at 1.5%. The book-to-bill ratio was well above 1, indicating sales growth in the quarters ahead. Second quarter net sales were at EUR 548 million, which represents a 7.1% decrease compared to prior year. At constant currencies, net sales were down by only 3.7% as volumes slightly decreased compared to prior year, which included positive catch-up effects from the banning of the pandemic-related restrictions in China. The adjusted EBITDA, which excludes nonrecurring items, was at EUR 59 million in the second quarter, representing an EBITDA margin of 10.7%. Please note, there were no adjustments made at all in the first half of this fiscal year. While price adjustments were countering margin pressure due to rising input costs, the EBITDA margin was 90 basis points lower year-over-year due to a negative impact from product and country mix effects. However, let's conclude the section outlook at our free cash flow, which was at breakeven in the second quarter. The main reason for this was a solid improvement in operating cash flow of EUR 29 million compared to the same period last year due to tighter management of working capital. In contrast, investment cash flow was below prior year, which has been positively influenced by the liquidation of a short-term investment. Now let's switch back to our financial performance for the first 6 months. Starting with a review of our segments. In our segment, Packaging Solutions, it recorded a significant increase of 16% in orders received over the first 6 months, totaling to EUR 615 million. In the second quarter, we reached EUR 304 million, marking an 8% year-over-year growth. This segment demonstrated a strong development across all regions, with Asia Pacific leading the way due to orders received from a trade fair in China. Overall, the underlying improvement was mainly driven by an increase in equipment sales. While net sales saw a slight increase in the first half of the year, adjusted EBITDA margin dipped to 9.1% after 6 months compared to 10.2% in the prior year. Product margins were in line with those of the Print Solutions segment, a higher R&D costs for strategic projects and increased resource allocation and selling and administrative function had a negative impact. Now moving on to the Print Solutions segment. We observed that orders received after the first 6 months were notably lower at minus 17%, primarily due to the strong catch-up effect seen in the previous year. Also, investment sentiment within this customer group remains weak. Printing activity has remained quite robust over the past month, providing a solid basis for our aftersales service business. However, net sales were 6% lower year-over-year, primarily due to a decrease in new machine deliveries compared to last year. In the Technology Solutions segment, we recorded a decline in both orders received as well as net sales, even though we recognize that the market sentiment is slightly improving again. Adjusted EBITDA stood at minus EUR 10 million in the first half and minus EUR 4 million in the second quarter, reflecting our ongoing efforts in developing new products and refining our sales structures. Let's switch to the next slide. Moving on to our regional breakdown. Despite a modest pickup in quarterly orders received, EMEA, excluding Eastern Europe's performance, in the first half of the year, remained relatively subdued However, this was largely offset by a successful first half year in Eastern Europe, driven by the robust Packaging segment. Net sales saw a 4% decline in the combined view of both regions, primarily due to a year-over-year decrease in the Technology Solutions segment reporting within the EMEA region. Shifting our focus to the Asia Pacific region, where orders received were up 5% compared to the same period in the prior year, thanks to a successful trade fair in China in April and noteworthy improvements in Japan. When we adjust our numbers for quite significant FX effect, year-over-year growth in orders received was even stronger at 14%, while net sales rose by 8%. Now turning our attention to North and South America. The region encountered some headwinds in the second quarter. Orders received were approximately 15% lower than the strong figures from the previous year, partly affected by some currency headwinds. However, thanks to a robust first quarter and solid after-sales service business, net sales managed to show a slight increase compared to the first half of the year. Now turning to the next slide, the EBITDA bridge on Page 10. To get a year-over-year comparison, we first have to adjust last year's reported EBITDA for a one-off gain of EUR 12 million from the sale of a property in St. Gallen, Switzerland, excluding transaction costs. Accordingly, last year's adjusted EBITDA was EUR 92 million, which corresponds to a margin of 8.2%. The year-over-year incremental changes were essentially driven by 2 factors. Firstly, as net sales were stable year-over-year, while prices continue to rise, volumes declined slightly and had a negative margin impact of around EUR 9 million. Secondly, there was a gross margin improvement of EUR 31 million compared to last year. Both product and country mix effects as well as an improved utilization of the Chinese plant, compared to the shutdown in the prior year, contributed to the margin improvement. Also, sales price adjustments [ power held ] for increase in material and personnel costs that were positively affected unfavorable FX effects. However, we expect personnel costs to continue to rise in a year-over-year perspective throughout the second half of the year, driven by the negotiated tariff increase. Overall, adjusted EBITDA was EUR 101 million, representing a margin of 9.1%. Please note, there were no nonrecurring items in the first 2 quarters. As a result, the adjusted EBITDA margin is the same as the reported EBITDA margin. Moving on to the next chart, on Page 11, walking from reported EBITDA to earnings before taxes. Depreciation was slightly lower year-over-year. EBIT [ was ] at EUR 63 million, nearly the same level as in the previous year. Our net financial result was slightly weaker compared to the same period in the previous fiscal year, resulting in net expenses of EUR 80 million. The year-over-year increase was primarily driven by interest expenses related to pension obligations, counteracting a decrease in the present value of those obligations, which is a noncash effect. Nonetheless, interest expenses on financial liabilities remained quite low at EUR 1 million. Thus, elevated interest rates only had a minor impact on this line item. Finally, other interest expenses experienced a slight year-over-year increase, primarily due to transaction costs related to the refinancing of our revolving credit facility. Due to the increase in our net financial result, earnings before taxes decreased by approximately EUR 6 million to EUR 45 million. Finalizing our view on our P&L, by shifting our focus to net tax result, which almost doubled year-over-year. Despite lower earnings before taxes, effective tax expenses remained on previous year's level, basically due to withholding tax on increased dividend payments. Conversely, deferred tax expenses normalized at minus EUR 1 million after a deferred tax income of EUR 4 million last year in relation to the sold property in Switzerland. Correspondingly, the net income decreased to EUR 33 million after 6 months compared to EUR 44 million last year. When the number -- by the number of shares, earnings per share improved -- improvement was at EUR 0.11. Let's now shift our focus to the free cash flow. First of all, operating cash flow benefited from the improvement in adjusted EBITDA, which grew as shown on the previous pages, by EUR 9 million compared to prior year. In addition, a tighter steering of working capital lowered the Heidelberg typical seasonal increase in net working capital, improving operating cash flow by EUR 33 million year-over-year. While pension cash out decreased by EUR 4 million due to a onetime cash out last year, other operating changes were in line with the previous year. As a consequence, operating cash flow totaled to minus EUR 15 million, but improved by EUR 29 million compared to last year. Investment cash flow was at minus EUR 13 million compared to a plus EUR 32 million in the same period last year, which included the inflows from a property sale in Switzerland and the liquidation of a financial investment. As a result, free cash flow amounted to minus EUR 28 million after 6 months. Also, free cash flow remains negative. It improved year-over-year when adjusted for the aforementioned nonrecurring effects, totaling to EUR 52 million in the previous year. However, we still expect free cash flow to be positive in the full year. Let us conclude this section with a view from some balance sheet figures, as presented on Page 14. We are delighted to have increased our revolving credit facility by EUR 100 million to EUR 350 million, with the maturity being extended by 3 years to 2027. This is a strong expression of confidence into the company, providing us the necessary financial flexibility to address the strategic challenges that lie ahead of us. Nevertheless, the net financial position remains historically low, standing at a positive EUR 12 million. Compared to the year-end, it has seen a slight decrease due to the negative free cash flow and a noncash increase in lease liabilities. Finally, I would like to mention our equitiy, which experienced an increase due to a positive net income and a reduction in the pension provision, resulting from a market-driven 50-basis-point increase in the applicable interest rate. At half year mark, equity ratio was a solid 26%. Let me conclude with a brief summary on our financials. Despite the challenging environment and geopolitical environment, Heidelberg demonstrated stability in the first half of this fiscal year. Particularly, the Packaging Solutions segment continued to show a positive development. Also, cash flow from operations was negative, it improved due to the higher operating profitability and successful net working capital management compared to prior year. However, profitability and operating cash flow remain on a low level, but improved compared to prior year as aforementioned, also as a result of our value creation program that we continue to work on. And now I will turn it over to Ludwin again.

Thank you, Tania. And I would like to move on to the next section of our presentation. Today, we would like to highlight sustainability at Heidelberg. Heidelberg clearly recognizes the significance of climate change and its impact on our planet and also on our business. Our company is fully committed to reducing our carbon footprint and advancing our sustainability efforts. However, while addressing climate change is a primary focus, our efforts extend beyond this area. As part of our value analysis, we've identified 4 key pillars that define our framework for sustainability as illustrated in this chart. The first pillar is resources and the circular economy, which is closely linked to the second pillar, which is climate change. Heidelberg is dedicated to efficiently using resources, contributing to their circularity and reducing waste. We will return to this important topic on the next slide to provide an update on our current progress in implementing our Scope 1 and 2 climate strategy and what all our efforts depend on. Before we go there, let me talk about the third pillar, which focuses on suppliers as a responsible and sustainable supply chain is key to reducing our environmental impact. More than 35% of our Scope 3 emissions are related to suppliers. It's also about ethical practices, fair labor and worker safety throughout our global supply chain. Now the fourth pillar, which is people, ethics and social responsibility, which underscores our commitment to employee well-being, fostering a safe, inclusive and motivating work environment that encourages innovation and employee loyalty. Lastly, a strong governance ensures transparency and trust, safeguarding the interest of our investors and shareholders. Okay. Now let's return to our ongoing efforts to enhance the environmental impact of our company and the industry we operate in. When we analyze the ratio of Scope 1 and 2 emissions to Scope 3 emissions, it becomes clear where we can make the biggest impact. Emissions falling under Scope 3, including those generated by our suppliers and the operation of machines at our customer sites, are approximately 30x higher than those connected to our production processes covered under Scope 1 and 2. Nonetheless, it is also important to reduce emissions within Scope 1 and 2, which is covered within our climate strategy. In the first step, Heidelberg aims to significantly reduce emissions by 2030, while offsetting remaining unavoidable emissions by compensation methods. In the subsequent phase targeted for completion by 2040, we aspire to achieve carbon neutrality without the need for compensation measures. While we continuously enhance the efficiency of our internal processes, a key lies in transitioning our energy consumption to renewable and sustainable sources. Already today, we have commissioned photovoltaic systems with a peak capacity of approximately 5 megawatts, with 5 more in the planning stages, which is enough to serve a small town energy consumption. That's really impressive. So we are gradually approaching our targets here. However, as previously highlighted, Scope 3 is particularly relevant when it comes to improving the carbon footprint of our industry. Essentially, emissions can be divided into 2 segments. Approximately 1/3 of these emissions are associated with purchased goods, while almost 50% are linked to customers using our products over their life cycle. Having improved the energy efficiency of our latest offset machines by 40% compared to 1990, Heidelberg is already looking back on a solid track record here. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, so much about our initiatives in the field of sustainability. So let's conclude the presentation with a look at our guidance for this fiscal year. As we look back on a solid first half of the year, we are optimistic to meet our annual targets. We are aware that the economic development continues to be volatile, particularly in light of geopolitical tensions that emerge in the Middle East. We need to stay cautious. Even though orders received have been stable so far, we are cautious about the future and assess the developments quarter-by-quarter. However, given the solid top line development that we recorded in the first half of the year, the robust order backlog, we remain confident for our sales guidance. We expect sales of the full year to be in line with the previous year's level of around EUR 2.435 billion. In terms of profitability, we expect the second half of the year to be somewhat weaker than the first 6 months. The reason is the usual cyclicity throughout the year, for example, caused by personnel cost-related provisions or certain infrastructure costs, which are simply not distributed equally over the year. However, bearing in mind that the first half of the year showed a solid profitability, we are very confident to meet our EBITDA margin guidance for the full year. Yes. That brings me to the 3 takeaways of this presentation. Heidelberg is weathering a rather sluggish economy, but the next few quarters will still be challenging. Our efforts in recent quarters continue to pay dividends as our half year EBITDA margin improved, despite flat net sales. Going forward, we will continue to work on our value creation program that will pave the way for our strategic ambitions. Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes the presentation. We are now looking forward to your questions, and I will hand back to the moderator to explain the procedure for the question-and-answer session.

[Operator Instructions] And the first question comes from Stefan Augustin.

I have 3 questions for the time being. The first one is for sure on the order intake and the development you see in the market. Could you outline a little bit what you have observed in the first weeks of the running quarter? And also interested, will be trends inside product ranges and the like.

Would you -- do you want to give all your questions, and then we answer them one by one?

Just each one after the other.

Okay, then let's start with that. Yes, order intake remains to be stable. As you could see, we have a -- in the first half of the year, we are on prior year's level. However, I would say there is certainly a slowdown somewhat, but I really would like to stress there is nothing like a drop. There is no hard decline or anything else, which you might have seen somewhere else. But we do not see that, right? So the order intake is still stable. It's somewhat slower. But we still believe that the level is okay for us to reach the guidance and to reach the prior year's level.

And any particular elements with respect to regions or products? I mean I have observed that you have been doing quite good on a sequential basis in the EMEA region. So is there a special large order that has happened there or just a coincidence?

Look, the -- I believe EMEA is stable, is strong, right? But the big advantage that Heidelberg enjoys is a real global footprint, right? So we can balance variations in certain markets because we basically cover the globe. And our strength in Asia helps us balancing certain fluctuations in Europe helps -- and Europe helps us balancing Americas. So it's really stability. If I look at -- I mean if we go region by region, you were just saying, yes, EMEA was quite strong. Asia depends on how we look at it, right? If we compare to the year before, well, it was good. So we even improved. If we compare with what we had prior to COVID, well, not on the same level yet, right? So it's really -- it's a mixed picture. Overall, I really believe Asia is in good shape as well. North America, a little bit weaker than prior year, but still stable and solid business.

Okay. The next one is actually a very quick one. What has been the impact of the tariff increase to the personnel costs in the quarter?

Impact of tariff increase? We just need to find the numbers.

EUR 8 million. Stefan?

Yes.

It's -- Stefan, it's EUR 8 million.

EUR 8 million, so...

In the second quarter.

And if I extrapolate this, so it's a fair assumption that the second half has, let's say, a headwind of EUR 16 million, and that would be more or less from the tariff side?

Yes, yes, that's correct. In the first half year, as mentioned earlier during the presentation, we fortunately faced some favorable FX effects from the Asian region on the personnel costs. But of course, hard to predict how FX rates will develop in the second half.

Not everything is Germany.

Yes, that is true. But it still looks to me that you can be actually quite comfortable to reach your EBITDA guidance. I guess, looking at the personnel headwinds, is manageable in the scope of what we have achieved so far to me? The last one is actually -- you did not mention anything large on the value creation program. And obviously, there are reasons for that. But I'm happy to hear anything you could share at this point.

Look, the reason is that there is simply not much news this time, but we hope to provide a little bit more insight on our next call. The value creation program, and if you look at our result on the cash flow in the first half of the year, you clearly see that we need a focused effort to further improve on our cash flow. And the value creation program will actually provide that. Again, right now, there's not much news. We have more insights. We could provide it again, maybe in the next call. We are in a position to do so.

The next question comes from Florian Sager from Stifel.

I have 2 actually. The first one would be, when do you expect a recovery in your -- especially your Printing segment? Because I know earlier, you said you expect a sluggish economy over the next few quarters, and that would also translate to lower volumes for you, I would assume. Any more color maybe you could give us on that?

I didn't get it specifically, on what segment?

Printing Solutions.

Printing Solutions. So you mean commercial print?

Okay. And the second question would be on the Technology Solutions segment. Do you think we've seen the trough here? What can we expect of the segment going forward? Because it's been a little weak over the past quarters already, maybe there is room to grow now. Those are my 2.

Yes. So let's start with commercial print. I believe what we are seeing in commercial print is a structural change of the industry. So this is not an economic down cycle or something. So this is really a change in the structure of the market. And what's happening there is a technology transition, more and more from offset printing to digital printing, and that will certainly continue. The good news, as you could see, that -- and we had it in the presentation, I was talking about it before Tania took over. Our share of packaging printing revenue increases, and the share of commercial print, at the same time, decreases. And that shows that structural change, which we have seen now for a long time, really not only a few quarters, we've seen this for many years. And this is why I'm saying, that will not stop, that will continue. And this is why we are so convinced that our investment in digital printing is exactly the right thing to do. Because that is where this market is going. And it's not disappearing, it's just a technology shift within a commercial print. So I believe we should not expect a sudden change of that trend. That's not going to happen. However, it is a very slow trend. It's not a rapid drop or something. It's a very slow trend, and we've been observing this since 2014. I believe that was the year we showed in the graph. So again, it's very predictable what's going on there. And we look at it as an opportunity and not as a threat, and we can compensate for the revenue loss with the growth in packaging. Your second question on the Technology Solutions segment, yes, that's kind of disappointing. I can only confirm that. The market is still down and remains to be down. It's not only the charging market for electric vehicles, it's also the electric vehicle market itself. We're obviously not in that market, but our business is related to the electric vehicle sales, and that's also slow at least in Germany. And -- that's clear. But we still -- and I'm really convinced, we still believe in this business. And I'm convinced that this is a -- it's a good idea to stay in this business. Because it's very clear and clearly communicated intent of German and European policies to transition from combustion engines to electric vehicles, and these vehicles need to be charged. And that's why I believe that, going forward, at some point, that market will recover. And we continue to invest. We try to keep the losses that we have in this segment at a reasonable and low level. But if we don't invest, we cannot expect future growth. So that's why we continue to believe in this segment, but I fully agree. The level of business that we have right now is negligible and certainly disappointing.

And the next question comes from Tore Fangmann from Berenberg.

I've got 2. The first one is a bit of an add-on to Stefan's question on the value creation program. Maybe also, do you have a schedule? Or are you planning to, at one point in the next maybe quarters, really the midterm guidance is something you plan? Second question would be, do you have an update on the subscription model? How is the uptake currently? How do the -- how do your customers like the model?

Yes, on the first, the value creation program supports our running business. This is the -- basically, the idea behind it. As we are facing significant challenges, look at our negative cash flow, right? We need to do something to stabilize things and to basically reach the levels that we envisage. So do not expect a sudden increase. It's about stabilizing the company financially. It's about creating the funds that we need for future investments. So we will not -- as usual and as we did in the past, we will not give a midterm guidance. We will stay with a year-by-year guidance that -- and honestly, it would be -- it would just not be feasible and a good idea to give a midterm guidance because there are other factors, not only the value creation program, which come into play, in particular the economic development. And the visibility is so low right now. I mean we even have a hard time to predict 1 year. So how could we possibly give a meaningful midterm guidance? So I really ask you for your understanding. But as I was saying before, we are planning to provide more insights into the value creation program so that you can get an idea of what we are doing there. Second question, on subscription. Well, subscription, as I always said, I believe subscription is a good and valuable financing model for a certain customer group. At the same time, I'm really convinced that subscription will not fundamentally change the market and in particular, the demand for printing machines. Why should it? I mean this is a financing model. And -- but the demand for the printing machines is driven by the demand for printed goods, and this is not related to a financing model. So I really believe, yes, subscription is a good thing because for some customers who are short on cash, they can convert this in a per sheet payment. And we see some customers who actually -- who like this model and invest into it. Interestingly, aside from the financing aspect, there's one other aspect, which is appealing to some customers. And that is that with the financing and with the subscription model, we provide support to the customers in terms of reaching their productivity goals. This is not related to the financing at all, but it's highly attractive, and we bundle this with refinancing. And I -- not too long ago, I met a customer who talked about this and said, well, actually, were 2 customers independently of each other, talking about this. And they said, we chose a subscription because we want to have your support to reach our productivity goals. So it was not so much about the financing, it was more really about that productivity element. So yes, we have -- if you look at the share of recurring revenue that we have, this is in the range of 15% of the total. And out of that, how much is it? Maybe 10% out of that is -- I just look at my colleagues to understand the number.

2%.

2% out of the 15%. Yes. It is 10% of the total thing. Anyhow, that is subscription. So it's relatively small.

And the next question comes from Peter Rothenaicher from Baader Bank.

So I have a question on the price quality of orders you're taking now. So clearly, the market is under pressure and also, your competitors are showing a weak order intake. Does this have an impact on pricing and on margin quality of orders you're taking? You also mentioned that in the U.S., your Japanese competitors had some advantage in terms of FX. So can you please comment on that?

Yes, happy to do so. I would say it does not have an impact to really cut it short. But let me explain why I'm saying that. So first of all, there is no way around price increases because we have cost increases. And we would have lost our profitability entirely without the price increases that we've gone through. This is clearly communicated to our customers. They understand this. Although, obviously, they don't like it, but that's what it is. And we are determined to continue actually with price increases as needed to compensate for the cost increases. And the competitive situation and the -- potentially weakening of the market, I believe it's not a good idea at all to fiddle around on prices when the demand decreases because this will not drive demand. It might lead to a deal being executed a little bit earlier, but the demand will not grow. So I think that's not a way, and we don't see that actually. We do not see that prices drop because the demand actually is a little bit sluggish. So that's not the case. More serious is actually the Japanese yen and the Japanese competitors because they now really have an exchange rate advantage, and that makes it more difficult. But also here, I mean, we will not make deals where we lose money, and this would just be foolish. So we don't do that.

Happy to hear because this was not always the case at Heidelberg.

I know. I know.

Yes. Okay. Second question on employees. So it was obviously a stable number of employees. Has the headcount reduction now fully come to an end? And what is your expectation going forward, perhaps in a more challenging environment? Are you already taking care here perhaps of some adjustments?

Well, the last program, which was called a transition for future [indiscernible] that the plan was to reduce the overall number of employees. Significantly, that goal of that time, which was now 2, 3 years ago, has been achieved, right? So we are, I believe, 9,500 employees right now, and that was the number we were shooting for. Obviously, we have no choice, but monitoring the situation continuously. So if the market further shrinks, if the efficiency and productivity measures that we take would require, so we certainly will revisit the question of the employee numbers. Right now, that's not the case. Right now, it's 9,500 employees and no other specifics or the news on that, right? But again, I mean, our company has been changing for the last 20 years, and that's not going to stop now that we have reached 9,500 employees. So this is what I'm trying to say.

Okay. And last question. Looking into next year, drupa is coming up again. What is your expectation to -- what size will Heidelberg appear at drupa? Is it comparable to the past? And what are your expectations here on costs coming up for drupa, might this have some perhaps a negative impact on profit expectations for next year?

Certainly, drupa is a cost [ factor ]. But we really would like to bring it down to a normal freight show level. Let's put it this way, drupa is a remainder from the late 1990s And at that point in time, there was no Internet. There was no other way to get information, and then people had to visit trade shows. That has fundamentally changed. So I believe it's really time that we bring drupa to a level that really makes sense for our decade. And so we do everything we can to bring the efforts down and to normalize drupa and make it an ordinary trade show. What it is? Come on, I mean this is a trade show, period. This is not a fundamental and important event. Certainly, it's important for customers to understand what's out in the market. But again, I really believe that it will not have the same significance that it had in the, I don't know, 10, 20 or 30 years ago when it was established. So we try to get cost down. There will be an effect, clearly, but we try to manage that as well as possible.

Okay. So there are no further questions.

I'll wait for a second, but I don't see more questions, ladies and gentlemen. So I would like to thank you for joining us in this call. Thank you for covering Heidelberg or for your interest in our company. We are looking forward to talking to you again after the third quarter. Have a good time. Until then, if you have further questions, I should mention, please do not hesitate to contact our Investor Relations department, Max Beyer, who is sitting here next to me, and we are happy to answer your questions. Have a good time, and talk to you next time. Bye-bye.