Hindustan Media Ventures Limited (HTMEDIA.NS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Amit Madaan from HT Media Group. I would like to welcome you all to our Q3 FY '21,'22 earnings webinar. [Operator Instructions] After we are through with the presentation, there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions. I'll now hand over the call to Ms. Anna Abraham, Head, Investor Relations. Thank you. And over to you, Anna.

Thank you, Amit. And welcome, everyone. Thank you for joining us today to discuss the HT Media Group's financial results for the third quarter of fiscal year 2022. Joining me on the call today is Mr. Piyush Gupta, Group CFO; Mr. Sandeep Gulati, CFO of Hindustan Media Ventures Limited; Mr. Pervez Bajan, Group Controller; and members of the investor relations team. Please note that our remarks will track the presentation on this Zoom webinar. This presentation, along with the financial statements, has been published on the stock exchanges and is also available on the investor relations section of our website. We are on Slide 2, which captures the disclaimer regarding forward-looking statements, which is on your screens right now. Kindly keep this in mind as we progress through the call today. Moving on to Slide 3. The slide gives our Chairperson's comments on the performance of the company for the quarter. And I quote: "The third quarter of this financial year saw healthy performance in the media sector with an increase in advertising spends, especially during this festive season which was much stronger than the previous year's. The operating environment continued to show improvement. The impact of the revival of economic activity and a turnaround in advertiser sentiment is reflected in our business performance. Print, both English and Hindi publications; radio; and digital have all recorded revenue growth both on an annual as well as on a sequential basis. In our print business, revenue growth has come from both robust advertising growth as well as better traction in circulation. Our Shine business continues to do well with an uptrend in recruitments. The company witnessed an improvement in operating profit margins in the quarter despite inflationary pressure on commodity prices. The ongoing third wave of the coronavirus pandemic has reintroduced an element of uncertainty, as different regions are enforcing calibrated restrictions to contain the spread. We continue to watch the situation closely, and while there might be impact on business, our expectation is that it will be limited." On Slide 4, we have the agenda today. We will begin with Piyush sharing his perspective on the performance for the quarter on a consolidated basis, followed by the business-wise performance. I now hand over the call to Piyush.

Thank you, Anna. Good afternoon, everyone, and wishing you a very happy new year. I hope you and your family members are safe during this third wave of corona. It gives us quite a lot of joy to present the third quarter results. As you can see on the webinar, we are flashing the consolidated financial summary. As you can see, the total revenue grew by 28% to INR 501 crores. Consolidated revenue growth Y-o-Y was 28%, and 14% sequentially, which is led by growth across all the business segments, as we shall be sharing with you shortly. Consolidated EBITDA, at INR 107 crores, which is INR 49 crores versus Q3 of '21. And the margin have come to a very robust level of 21%. EBITDA margin expansion happened despite the inflationary newsprint price environment, which we shall also be covering as we move forward in the presentation. PAT came in at INR 51 crore with a 10% margin. This is the highest in the last 14 quarters. Yes, can we move on? Now we just go into the business-wise performance. If you look at the print performance. The ad revenue came to INR 323 crores, which is a 37% growth versus the same period last year. And circulation revenue grew by 16% at INR 54 crores. Hence, the total operating EBITDA came at INR 396 crores versus INR 289 crores, which is a 37% growth. And operating EBITDA came at a very handsome INR 87 crores, which is a 3x improvement over the same period last year with an operating EBITDA margin at 22%. This has happened because of a sharp increase in ad revenue driven by a strong festive season. And of course, there was a strong impetus of government advertising given the multitude of state elections during the quarter -- or the state election spending during the quarter, my apologies. Circulation revenue growth, on the back of recovery of copies in circulation and continued improvement in realization per copy, has been witnessed in this quarter. And better operating EBITDA and margins are driven by top line growth primarily. If we just break it down into English and Hindi. This is our English print business. As you can see on the top left-hand corner, the ad revenues, on a Y-o-Y basis, there's a growth of 32% at 176 crores -- sorry. On a Y-o-Y basis, it's up 47% at INR 176 crores; on a quarter-on-quarter basis a 32% growth. On the right-hand side, on the circulation side there's a quarter-on-quarter growth of 43% and a Y-o-Y growth of 129%. Therefore, the robust revenue recovery in nearly all advertising categories was witnessed, substantial growth in ad revenues as well as improvement on yields. Growth in circulation has been led by copies and strong pickup in realizations across various editions. If we go to Hindi. On the top left-hand corner, you can see the ad revenues in Hindi on a quarter-on-quarter basis grew 30% to INR 148 crores; and on a Y-o-Y basis a 26% growth. Circulation on a quarter-on-quarter basis was reasonably flat at 2%, on a Y-o-Y basis a marginal improvement of 5%. And the strong traction in ad revenues in the festive season, government revenues were also better. Categories such as FMCG, retail, BFSI and e-commerce witnessed a strong tailwind. Circulation revenue growth -- continues to grow and with a focus on realizations. However, there was muted advertising from categories such as auto, education, medical, health and fitness. Our digital business in HT Media also had a robust growth of 42%, as you can see, with revenues coming at INR 36 crores, as against INR 25 crores. And operating margin, it came to a break-even level, yes. Last but not the least, happy to report that our radio revenues also grew at 27%. Though we would have liked slightly higher, but as you know, radio has a lot of headwinds. But suffice to say, in this environment, radio reported a positive EBITDA of INR 5 crores in the quarter. So we come to the end of the presentation. We can now have the Q&A. Over to you, Anna.

Thank you, Piyush. We'll now begin the Q&A session.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from [ Pavan Sarodia ].

Yes. So my question is regarding HMVL. So we noticed the top line has now reached like almost pre-COVID level to around 190 crores in HMVL. So is it continue to -- like what is the expectation in current quarter for this? Is it going to be same? Or like is it -- or what is the trend in current quarter basis?

Okay. So [ Pavan ], though -- we don't give forward-looking statements, but I'll request my colleague Sandeep Gulati to take that question, please. Sandeep?

So Piyush already talked about that we don't give forward-looking statements, but I just wanted to say, this quarter again, those started off well, as we all know, but now we are getting impacted by the COVID wave 3. So it's pretty uncertain at this point of time. So we are hoping that it will keep improving from here on. So it will be difficult to comment further on that, but it started well but a little uncertain at this point of time to comment...

So [ Pavan ], I think what -- Sandeep is clearly articulating we are on a strong footing, but the external uncertainties are beyond us. So we are hoping for the best. And that's, I think, where we will leave today.

Okay. And what is the expected impact of newsprint prices? I think that is also touching around $700 now, so what is the expectations in current quarter on that part?

Sandeep, would you like to take that?

Okay, yes. So [ actually ] the newsprint prices continue to remain strong, and actually the spot prices are increasing even further beyond this also. So that headwind is still there for us, and we expect that this will remain like that for a few more quarters before it starts settling down. That's the kind of expected trajectory we are seeing. So it will remain strong for next couple of quarters. At least it looks like.

Okay. And what about the plans for better utilization of cash? As at -- as for last 2, 3 quarters, we have seen it is not performing well in this low interest rate scenario.

Well, actually it's not exactly been bad, if you look at the last 2, 3 quarters; and look at the cash number that we had published in the balance sheet. I don't think it's a bad deal, but I will request my colleague Anna to respond to that question.

The impact on cash is also led by the fact that the business has taken some cash [ given ] in the first part of this year. And it's only in quarter 3 last year that we have seen some sensitivity on the returns given the highly volatile environment right now. That is a result of volatility. And it's expected to, hopefully, settle in another month when there is more clarity on the monetary policies both by the Fed as well as by the RBI. Otherwise, it's been a fairly healthy return for this year as well. Last year, of course, it was an unusually high return given the various rate actions and the [ deal movements that are happening ], but on this year too, the first half has been very good. Quarter 3, there has been some softness led by volatility. And the drop in overall cash is a little -- is more on account of the utilizations business is taking.

The next question is from Anish Jobalia.

My question is of the recovery that you have seen in the Hindi business. So is it possible for you to give some more breakdown around how has been the volume growth; and how has been the yield changes in this quarter versus the pre-COVID quarter of Q3 FY '20 or, I mean, any comparable quarter that you can just share...

Anish, let me give you -- yes. Look. So let me give you a high-level perspective on the volumes. As we've been maintaining the volumes since historical low last year, it has been on a gradual increase. As far as Hindi is concerned, we are now close to more than 90%, depending on market by market, edition by edition, if we look at the volumes. The volumes growth has been slow and steady but has reached a critical level. Yields [ is there's ] some susceptibility, of course, remains because -- when the markets are coming down from a historical low. Obviously the election will take some time to go through this thing. For more details, I can request Sandeep to basically share some details of the numbers with you.

Sure.

Okay. The only thing I will just say, add more into that -- is, Anish, that of course you have seen that we had a good recovery on the revenue side. And that's largely driven by volumes. Yield is still under pressure, [ so are the ] rates, if you want to think it through, but good news is that gradual recovery continues and we have reached to a pretty good state. Again it's hard to give what -- exact numbers here because it just keeps moving between quarters, but it's still not completely recovered from that standpoint. And we had to operate with discounts to continue recover our overall business.

Sir -- but incrementally -- I mean, sequentially, is there improvement in the yield, sir?

Sequentially, yes, yes, sequentially. So it's improving, but it's gradual. It's not sharp. That's the only comment I would...

So sir, at one point of time, we had a yield decline of 20% and -- right?

Yes.

So does this continue? Or this gap has now narrowed...

So gap is narrowing now. So that's the way I would look at it. Exactly, wouldn't comment on that one, but the only thing I can -- directionally it is improving.

So is it -- like if we look at the Q3 FY '20 with -- I mean we did around like consolidated revenue of [ 208 ], right, so versus we did [ 200 ], I mean, as published in the results. So if we are having a decline of yield, say, versus the pre-COVID quarter, right, because we are comparing it with pre COVID, everything, the yield decline -- because after that, it only started happening. So can it be said that then there is a volume growth of 15%, 20% over, say, [ Q3 ] FY '20?

Yes, you're right. So volume growth is pretty robust versus '19, '20. And that's what gives us the confidence that the business is recovering well. And that -- also that's why gradually also it's helping us move the pricing table in the right direction...

Sir -- but like would you now like to accept that the yields are now going to remain at lower levels? I mean because, I mean, volume [ multiplied by realization ] has already reached where we wanted. So even the advertisers might now be looking -- like it's difficult to increase the yields once it's taken down, right? So like now is it right to expect that now yield recovery won't happen, I mean, going forward? And everything will be volume-driven growth. And how do you see this in FY '23? Because now we have 2 quarters of without lockdown. And lockdown has been like the major impact on the overall print business overall, right? So that's been a major reason. So now we have seen 2 good quarters without much impact of lockdown. I mean you mentioned Q4 being there, but Q3 and Q2 was not there. So how are you seeing the going forward now? Because I think the lockdowns are -- impact is going to only reduce gradually -- I mean keep on -- reduce sequentially going forward.

Okay. I'll just -- yes. Anna, do you want to go? Go ahead [indiscernible].

Yes. Anish, I was just going to add, saying that it's not really just lockdown. It's a question of the general sentiments out there in the market when it comes to advertising spends. Lockdown had more of an impact on the circulation, as opposed to the advertising, in terms of operational constraints. When it comes to advertising revenue, it's more driven by the market sentiment that is perceived by the advertisers. Obviously, when such an event happens, the consumption-led spends tend to reduce. And therefore, the advertising tend to reduce, but as Sandeep said, it's difficult for anybody to predict what will happen because we really don't know how long all these problems will take time to settle. But we are consistently seeing improvement in volumes and we are also seeing improvement in pricing. Of course, it is not to the extent that -- and the speed at which we would like to see, but as and when volumes come back, we believe that we are -- pricing power will increase. So difficult to predict, but it should be on that continued improvement because that's what we've been seeing on a sequential basis all throughout.

[ But remember ], now that the volumes are already back -- and then you -- okay, I'll just go back in the queue.

Anish -- I'm sorry, Anish. Could I request you to return [ to the queue, please ]? The next question is from [ Nikunj Thumar ].

So I just want to know the expansion plan of that printing in the newspaper business. Right now we are only present in the couple of states in the North India side. Do we have any expansion plan of that? And then how company going forward will focus on -- especially on the digital things, like apart from the traditional news printing business.

[ Nikunj ], yes. So first of all, on the expansion plan, I think there are no massive expansion plan. I think, this question, we had discussed last time as well, but selectively in the markets where we feel there is a certain demand, we will definitely look at those market and explore those market. But launching traditional newspaper in this market scenario is not -- the cost-benefit analysis doesn't add up. So there are no big plans, but we keep on evaluating niches where there might be pockets of revenue sitting there. And as far as the digital business is concerned, that has been the focus for the company for the last 3 to 4 years. And as showing in the segment report, the digital business has done exceedingly well; and apart from that, if you remember, that we had created a separate digital company at -- by carving it out of HT Media some 3 years ago. And that company itself continues to grow very handsomely. Of course, there are digital businesses sitting in HT Media which are covered in the digital segment of HT Media results as well. And we continue to keep on focusing on the digital businesses because that's where a lot of growth is coming for the last many years. And of course, COVID has only accelerated that, [ yes ].

Yes. And one last question. So I can see there are a couple of investment as well there from the HMVL, like OYO and MobiKwik and everything. So in future, do we have also plan to invest in some start-up like this? Or how sure you are on those investments -- like when you started getting the returns from that.

Look, I think, as I have always articulated, most of these investments are under our AFE platform, which is really from that perspective cashless investments. These are ad -- these are given against ads. So there are 2 benefits. One, of course, these become our permanent customers for a long time. And of course, we are taking position in the new age growth companies with a clear expectation of a certain IRR. Now the question whether -- how soon can we expect that return is a million dollar question. In India they churned out 43 unicorns last year. Some of them have gone and IPO-d. Most IPOs are not doing well. I think that really is a very speculative question. And I will not go there, down that route, but our investment portfolio, so far, has done reasonably well. And we will be on lookout of great opportunities as and when they present themselves to us.

The next question is from [ Tushar Sarda ].

Yes. Mine is just a bookkeeping question on Slide 9. You have given [indiscernible] turnover...

[ Tushar ], we can't hear you.

Yes, no. You have given -- right. On Slide 9, you have given ad revenue for Q3 '22 as INR 323 crores and circulation revenue as INR 54 crores. And the operating revenue has shown as INR 396 crores, so what is the difference here?

Yes. So the other segment -- yes, go ahead. Go ahead, Anna. Go ahead.

There will be other -- yes. There will be other streams of revenue, like we have job work. There will be also other operating revenue that we get from, say, scrap sales and other incidental income. So all of that together add up to the [ operating bit ].

And this operating EBITDA is excluding the income on investments, right?

Yes.

Okay, okay. I just wanted a clarification.

The next question is from [ Rahul N. ]. Since there is no response, we'll move to the next participant. The next question is from [ Yesh R. ].

[indiscernible] is with regards to the ad revenue. I know you've mentioned that volume is at around about 90% of pre-COVID levels. Am I right? I'm just trying to...

Yes, yes.

Okay. And this was for English. Or is it for both, I mean...

Well, I gave you a blended number. So yes, if you go market by market, there are certain editions, certain markets where the ad volumes are actually 100% of pre-COVID level, certain market where it is about 80%. So I gave you a blended number of 90%, but you'll have to look at in the English parts and then market-to-market [ price ].

Okay, okay. And yield, like you said, is 15% higher than pre COVID, Q3 FY '20. So that is also a blended number, right?

No. We never said it's higher. We said it's lower.

Lower.

Sorry. I'm so sorry. It's yield is lower, okay?

Yes. So basically what I'm saying is, look, yields are still not at a pre-pandemic level. And yield, it is a big challenge in spite of the fact that the volumes have really built to a 90%, 95%; in some cases back to 100%, but going forward, you know how they will correct. We were just answering to the participant earlier that it will only gradually increase because, in a market which is coming back from such a low, it's a very tough journey to take pricing actions. And that pricing power, [ that's -- will give -- gradually. That will ]...

Yield will continue to remain under pressure is what you're saying.

Yes.

Okay. I can see in the investor presentation that it has mentioned that there has been the increase in the realization per copy. So is that on account of cover price increase that was done during the quarter?

Yes. It is basically both cover price and subscription price increases that we have taken across markets.

So that was across English [ and ] language for HMVL as well.

Yes, not exactly across all markets but absolutely right. Yes, across English and Hindi, but we have taken selectively in market, depending on competitive actions.

Any percentage that you had in mind of [ average price increase ] that you've done?

Well, I won't know that number, but it depends upon the market dynamics. I won't have that number for you, [ Yesh ].

Okay. And you've mentioned copies have increased as well, right, the circulation?

Yes.

Where are we now in terms of percentage of pre-COVID level?

Well, again you have to go by -- market by market. On Hindi, if we look at the copies, I think the copies are pretty close to the pre-COVID levels, but on English, I think we are still close to about 75%, 80%.

Yes.

Okay, okay. And where are we in the newsprint costs, the blended cost for the quarter?

Well, the blended -- yes, go ahead, Anna...

It's around 45,000, [ yes ].

Sorry. I didn't get the answer. Sorry.

Well, around 45,000.

45,000. And we are -- of course, see or expect any increase in the coming quarters, I mean, depending on...

In the next quarter, we are expecting an increase, but it may not be a substantial increase because we still have some inventory which we are holding which is -- cost lower. But the purchase rate is high, so in the year to come, we will see that [ effect ].

And this 45,000 is a blended cost of imported and domestic as well.

That's correct.

The next question is from [ Tushar Sarda ].

Yes. I wanted to know. There is this scheme of arrangement which is pending. So what is the status? And does the ratio remain the same as the original one?

Yes. [ Tushar ], the scheme of arrangement is with both Delhi NCLT and Mumbai NCLT. The ratio remains the same, which was developed after the [ thorough valuation ] of all the companies participating in the scheme of arrangement. So depending on the NCLT's pronouncement as and when the meetings happen, the scheme will go ahead.

Okay. Because if I'm looking in the price of these companies Digicontent and Next Mediaworks, then the ratio looks not in favor of shareholders of those companies. So why is the market price not in sync?

Yes. So [ Tushar ], I think that's the classical dichotomy, which in the earlier calls also we had articulated because the only comparison that generally most of the investors do is to the market prices, whereas the markets, [ of course ], are rational, but they are not currently factoring in. So if you go to the scheme document on the NSE's website or the BSE website: The rationale behind these schemes are multifold. The customer behavior, which has changed, [ will want a bundled ] product, right, to clean up the capital structure and get [ various of the ] synergies driving [ this whole stuff ]. Now of course, some of these companies are not as widely traded. And hence, the market price is not [ truly ] reflecting there, whereas market is discounting some other companies. So this valuation was done not just on trading prices but also on intrinsic value and the [indiscernible] factors, depending on their earning capacity. And [ also net asset matter ]. So I would presume -- really can't comment on market prices, but I would presume that eventually the market prices should converge. But this scheme is very good for all the shareholders who would like to participate in the journey whereby we as HT Media Group are able to take a joint proposition to the advertisers.

No. I understand. Before you announce a scheme, the prices could [ diverge ], but once the scheme is announced, the price, it should have been more in sync. [indiscernible] market price [indiscernible] also. It's fine. I just [indiscernible] there is any other reason. I have one more question: The net worth of HT Media is in excess of 2,000 crores. It's a very cash-rich company, but market cap is only 700 crores, so what is management doing to unlock the value? Or are you happy with this kind of market cap?

No, we are absolutely not happy with this current kind of market cap. If you look P-to-B, price to book; or price to earnings, of course, it's very dismal. 2 or 3 things. One of the reasons that we are bringing this scheme together is also to address this [ whole piece ] but -- various other revenue streams that we are trying to kick-start. Like I spoke about digital. We also tried something in the [ crickets ] stream at a certain proposition or a business value that we did. All those things are taking some time, but obviously are we happy with the market cap? We are not. What would we do? We obviously -- we build, allocate capital in the best possible sustainable value creation for all shareholders, majority and minority, but really the other trend which we have seen, all the listed publication companies have been derated by the market over the last few years very sharply. Now that is very unfortunate given the healthy results that we have seen even this quarter, but the other fact also is that the COVID had impacted all the publication companies in a very sharp manner. So really I hope that the market prices will correct themselves in the mid- to long term. And we are taking whatever actions we can to the best of our ability.

I don't know if you've read about this, but New York Times reinvented itself, and the -- now they have a fairly strong digital content. And the market cap has multiplied multifold over last 5, 7 years.

Yes.

I think it may be a good case study for you to look at and see how shareholder value gets created.

No, absolutely, you're right. As a matter of fact, we are in touch with New York Times on a pretty regular basis. New York Times team has basically visited us in India and we have gone over those case studies. And that was one of the reasons we had crafted out Digicontent Limited. And as you can see, the business performance, DCL's results, came day before yesterday -- or 2 days before yesterday. You will have seen the growth coming in there. So we are trying to create shareholder value, but the value will get created across multiple [ counters ]. And now we are trying to clean up the capital structure, so I think that in the long term, mid- to long term, the shareholders [ will definitely value ] by the business performance that we turn out.

Okay. Do you have a 3-year, 5-year...

[ Tushar ], I'm sorry to interrupt. Could I request you to...

Okay, [ I'll hop back ] in the queue. [indiscernible].

The next question is from [ Mohit Komra ].

Yes. So I have 2 questions. The first one is that -- yes, your holdings in OYO, MobiKwik, et cetera, whatever holdings you have. Do you plan to be a seller during the IPO? Or do you plan to hold onto these as strategic long-term investments or strategic/long-term investments?

Well, we plan to -- look. I mean the -- it depends upon the IPO, the timing and the valuation. And right now everyone is relooking at their IPO or the go-to-market strategy in terms of fundraising, but we definitely plan to monetize. Now whether we will use IPO as the window, or post IPO, remains to be seen, but we don't want to hold these for the long term. And we will look at a strategic exit wherever we can find one.

Okay. That was a very clear answer, but my second question is that, in the last couple of meetings, you have been mentioning this -- okay, I'm specifically talking in terms of Hindustan Media Ventures as a shareholder of Hindustan Media Ventures. You have been mentioning this corporate reorganization. And it seems to imply that, once this is done in a quarter, in 2 quarters, in 3 quarters, whenever the time takes, there will be some significant action from your management in terms of return of excess cash. And this is I'm speculating a little, but am I thinking in the right direction? Is this where the management is thinking, part A and part B? You also made a very, very aggressive bid for some IPL [ team ] at maybe [ 4,100 crores ] or something, which is the amount of cash you have. So which direction are you looking at? Because holding cash in treasury and then discussing what returns the treasury is giving is not the best form to -- you would agree, right?

Yes. So look. On the first part of your question where you said that we've been indicating certain reorganization at an HMVL level, I don't think we've ever said that. Even the scheme of arrangement which is currently with NCLT is at an HTML level, not at an HMVL level. What we've been indicating is to clean up the capital structure and to have a joint offering to the customer. We are trying to integrate the Next Mediaworks, HT Media and Digicontent Limited. HMVL is on the side. So that's point number one. What was the second point?

My second point is that, in the bigger scheme of things, are you looking at utilizing [ this cash ] in some way? Because you made a very aggressive bid for [indiscernible] something, which you did not win...

Look. I think -- yes, which we did not win. On the capital allocation -- yes. So let me answer that. Thank you. I think I got the drift of your question. On the capital allocation, we don't want to hold cash till eternity. We obviously want to deploy for a long, sustainable value creation, as I said earlier. Now whether that will come from [ IPL ] or organic route, whereby one of the earlier participants was asking about the expansion of printing facilities or deploying that money in digital, is something that the Board always discusses. And we will do whatever will create the best value for all shareholders on a sustainable basis. That's all I can say, unfortunately, at this stage.

Thank you. The next question is from [ Kunal Gera ].

A quick one. You talked about auto being muted for you in the quarter. Is that related to the chip shortage any way? Secondly -- okay.

Yes, that is one of the reasons. That is one of the reasons. The second reason is, of course, the auto launches. A lot of auto launches has been postponed by the OEMs. So that's the second reason.

And historically, how much has auto been contributing as a percentage? To get an understanding. And how much did it contribute last quarter? For us to kind of get an understanding of how much has been the impact.

Anna, would you like to take that?

Yes. We can't share an exact percentage, but it typically is a top 5 category of advertisers for us.

No, no -- yes. Okay. And how did it feature in this [indiscernible]?

It is -- I mean it's been a negative...

[ No, no ]. It continues to be in the top 5, or it's actually slipped down the [ poll ].

It will be in the top 5 still...

I think -- no. I think it will be about 6 or something. I mean it did not fall off the place, if that's the answer, I think, in the top 5 because of the impending state election. The government did a lot of campaigning, et cetera. Autos, because of the inherent problem, would -- if not in the 5, I mean, it would have come to a 6 or a 7, but we've not seen it like that. But it's not like totally fallen off the cliff or gone away.

And how long do you see this challenge remain?

Well, the government is trying to get manufactured chips. Now god knows whether they'll be able to do this [ thing ]. Look. I think one thing one needs to understand is advertising is a derived-demand business. It depends upon the state of the underlying companies who are taking a campaign to the market. Now autos have had a certain headwind in the -- for the last 2 quarters actually. Sometimes, A category fires. Sometimes, B category fires, so this pecking order will keep on changing, but let's see where it goes. But auto, I believe, as long as India auto penetration is what it is -- it might change to EV. It might change to various other forms, but I think, as long as India is [ underpenetrated in auto ] and autos will sell, I think their campaigns will definitely come. But of course, they have to [ tie it over ] their own companies also.

The next question is from Amit Mehendale.

Am I audible?

Yes. Please...

Okay. I just wanted to understand. What is the value of some of these OYO, MobiKwik, that kind of -- the stake that we are holding? Can you articulate some number that at the current market value [ you can value ]?

Look. I can't give you the value, but as a principle of our investment, we don't take substantial stakes in any of these companies, as one of the guiding principles is there for the marketing spends within our company. And these are, mark-to-market basis, whatever are the prevailing prices, but from our balance sheet point of view, these are substantial investments and we would definitely look at monetizing them whenever the opportunity presents itself. Right now, for the last 1 month, of course, the wind has blown in a different direction, but given some of these companies have a very successful business model and the COVID is also a transitory thing, we believe that we will be able to monetize them very healthily. Some part of that, in the past, we have also monetized; and those numbers have already flowed into the financials.

Right. Maybe can you articulate value of the [indiscernible] unlisted book asset [indiscernible] some directional number. Like say 300 crores -- some number, directional number.

At a program level, it will be more than that. I don't want to give the numbers because this is an open public call, but it will be definitely more than that.

Next, we have a follow-up from Anish Jobalia.

Sir, I want to dissect your Hindi advertising numbers a bit better. So INR 148 crores we did in this quarter. So how much will be the impact of the state election and this also being a festive quarter? So I just want to understand the impact of these two on our advertising revenues in this quarter.

Anish, we won't be able to give you such level of details. I'm sorry.

Okay. Secondly but directionally also, is it possible for you to help us to understand? [ We did INR 148 crores ]...

So as we mentioned in the -- no, we can't give you breakups, et cetera, but as we mentioned, we had a good festive this quarter better than the festive last year. So festive has also contributed. Government spending has also contributed, but we wouldn't want to get into spread mix on that.

Secondly, coming to the radio. So we have obviously seen a very good recovery in the industry as well as for HT, so I just want to understand for us. Like I understand you have mentioned in the presentation that -- sales volumes recovery, but is there any improvement in the yields also seen on the radio side? How -- what are your thoughts [ internally ]?

It's a very tough journey, my friend. As I said in the presentation, radio yields are in a tough space right now. We as a company are making the effort. The industry itself is making an effort, but again the -- what happened in the second week of January, and again the demand softened a little bit, is not helping that journey. So radio yields will take some time, for sure.

Next, we have a follow-up from [ Tushar Sarda ].

I have 2 questions. This Digicontent is your subsidiary, right? And that's digital content. So how do you consolidate? Because Digicontent Q3 revenue is 87 crores, whereas in your...

[ Tushar ], just a factual correction. Digicontent is not a subsidiary. It's a parallel company to HT Media. And if you remember the scheme of arrangement: Shareholders of HT Media were issued Digicontent shares when this company was listed 3 years ago. It's not a subsidiary.

So it's not consolidated. The results were not consolidated, [ yes ].

So it's held by your parent company, okay. Okay, I made a mistake. Sorry. Okay...

Yes.

And I have a follow-up on my previous discussion. What is your 3- to 5-year target for turnover, EBITDA, ROC, ROE kind of thing? Because creating shareholder value is important. And if you can give a road path or road map as to how that will happen, it will help all of us understand your future better. I mean, as a brand and all, HT Media is very strong. Mint is my favorite newspaper, but still the value is not there, so...

Okay. Well, [ Tushar ], let me try to do this thing, but as -- in these times, as they say, looking out into future is a fool's game. But you can call me a fool after the call, but that's besides the point. 2 or 3 big trends that we've been seeing, not now but for the last 3 years; and we've been trying to [ act on ] that. What is the first big trend? The first big trend is we are still extremely profitable and a cash-rich company. Hence, there is capital. And we want to deploy that capital effectively to create long-term sustainable revenue streams. Hence, Digicontent Limited happened. Hence, we also bid for a certain acquisition, which obviously did not happen. And we are looking at some more things, which is the Board's prerogative. That's trend number one. Trend number two, clearly we know for a fact that, from a markets perspective, most of the publications' stock prices have been run down in the market because the market is basically at this point in time not seeing the long-term value [ in this whole bit ]. Now our share price is no exception to that and our share price has also gone down. And as I said, it's currently trading less than the book value. As a matter of fact, it's trading less than the cash which is sitting on the balance sheet. And we are totally cognizant of that. What are we doing? Of course, we have our internal plans and we are looking at various ways. So if you look at the unallocated sector of HMVL, [ unallocated ] section of HMVL segment reporting, there are some new products that we are trying to bring in the market through our labs. These are currently in incubation stage. We hope that pretty soon, as a matter of fact, next year, they should be put out in the market. And they should then go from strength to strength, but these are all the incubations that we had started about 1.5 years back. And of course, it takes its own time to kind of go to the market. The investment business, we've already spoken to you about. We are looking at various opportunities wherever we as a media house can good -- get good investment positions to drive long-term value. And that program has been running very successfully and we have also monetized quite a lot of assets. Now those are the things we draw up our business plans. We obviously are not putting them out in the public domain, but would we like to draw a return on capital employed of anywhere north of 12% to 15%? Absolutely -- is the intent. Are we able to do that right now? Absolutely not. Are we doing, taking actions to kind of tie it over the situation? Yes, but it's only time will tell. And as I said, we are a pretty ambitious company. We are a reasonably strong balance sheet, so we just hope that some of these things that we are trying to do can drive value creation for the shareholders over the mid- to long term. I hope I've answered that question. You can discount that by 100% also if you want because future is [ a monk's paradise ], right?

No, no. I mean, thank you for a detailed answer, but some numbers would help. Maybe [indiscernible]. It always helps.

[indiscernible]. I think the mother of all number is -- I said the aspirational number is the ROCE of 12% to 15%. Now you can do the back math from ROCE. ROCE has every number built into that number, right?

Yes.

Okay. Is Next media consolidated?

Next media is consolidated in HT Media, yes.

And that is a radio business.

Yes, please.

So how does that happen? Because that turnover quarterly is 8 crores, and here you are showing some 27 crores. So I mean pardon me because I am looking at HT Media for a long time...

No, no. No problem. Look. I think -- I don't know what numbers you are looking, but let me just clarify. There are 2 [ brands ] on the -- see, our radio business is sitting in Next media, which is only the 7 stations of Next media, which is a separate listed company. And a lot of radio business is also sitting in HT Media, which is the Fever 104, right, which was the -- when we participated in the phase 2 auction of the government of India. So I don't know which numbers you are looking for, but the radio business actually goes across 2 legal entities. Actually [ that means it's sitting ] across 3 legal entities.

3 legal...

Okay, I'll have a detailed look because I didn't get much time before the call...

Sure, sure. You can always drop an e-mail to us, and we will be more than happy to answer your questions.

Thank you. Since there are no further questions in the queue, we come to the end of Q&A session. If you have any further questions, please reach out to investor relations team. Our contact details are given in the investor presentation and are also mentioned on our website. I now hand over the call to Piyush for closing remarks.

Thanks, [ Ankal ]. And dear shareholders, a happy new year once again. Stay safe. And thanks for participating in the call, a very constructive conversation. It also gives us opportunity to take feedback from the shareholders, and some of you give us very astute feedback. We will be carrying that home. The only point that I'd like to make is, as a company, we are trying to do various things. Now some will work. Some will not work, but as this quarter's results have demonstrated, that if we have a little less of headwinds or a little more of tailwinds, there is operating -- there's a lot of operating leverage which can be brought to bear which will indeed drive shareholders value over mid- to long term. With that, I wish you all the very best and thank you once again for participating. And have a great day.

Thank you.